---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/29/09: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:15 AM - Alternative epoxy varnish (shad bell) 2. 08:45 AM - Re: Alternative epoxy varnish (Ben Charvet) 3. 09:50 AM - Re: Alternative epoxy varnish (helspersew@aol.com) 4. 11:15 AM - Re: Alternative epoxy varnish (Mike Whaley) 5. 11:30 AM - Re: Alternative epoxy varnish (Barry Davis) 6. 01:05 PM - Re: Alternative epoxy varnish (Steve Eldredge) 7. 01:38 PM - Selling Out (BHH) 8. 01:57 PM - Re: Alternative epoxy varnish (Steve Eldredge) 9. 02:21 PM - Re: Selling Out (Steve Eldredge) 10. 02:55 PM - Re: Selling Out (BHH) 11. 04:17 PM - Re: Selling Out (Dave Abramson) 12. 07:14 PM - epoxy varnish, Non standard practice (shad bell) 13. 07:34 PM - Re: Selling Out (BHH) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:50 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy varnish , that is cheaper.- I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 where the fabric glues to the wings, tail.- Poly Fiber from aircraft spruce is upwa rds of $170 a gallon.- Spar varnish will not work in this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using,- it is mek based, and will lift the varnish off the wood.- Any sugestions appreciated. - Building in snowy Ohio, Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:56 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish For what its worth, when I finished my fuselage I was planning to use MEK based cement. I found a quart kit of epoxy resin used for making resin tabletops at my local Ace Hardware aviation supply, for a very reasonable price. I thinned it to the right consistency with MEK or laquer thinner, I don't remember which, and it seems to have worked just fine. After all that I decided to use the Stewart system glue, and latex paint similar to your dad's plane, so my wings were spar varnished. The epoxy was applied to the fuselage 2 years ago, and still looks great. Hopefully I will be covering the fuselage by late spring.. I know others have used T-88 thinned with MEK and I did use that to do my tail surfaces with similar success. Ben Charvet Mims, Fl Right wing covered and painted, left wing next! shad bell wrote: > Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy > varnish, that is cheaper. I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 > where the fabric glues to the wings, tail. Poly Fiber from aircraft > spruce is upwards of $170 a gallon. Spar varnish will not work in > this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using, it is mek > based, and will lift the varnish off the wood. Any sugestions > appreciated. > > Building in snowy Ohio, > Shad > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish From: helspersew@aol.com Shad, Have you considered the Stewart system? I am going to start covering my airplane on Saturday. They have several "how-to" videos on YouTube now. The adhesive is very easy to use, and you can work at your own pace with NO SOLVENTS. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: shad bell Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 9:02 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy varnish, that is cheaper.? I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 where the fabric glues to the wings, tail.? Poly Fiber from aircraft spruce is upwards of $170 a gallon.? Spar varnish will not work in this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using,? it is mek based, and will lift the varnish off the wood.? Any sugestions appreciated. ? Building in snowy Ohio, Shad ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:55 AM PST US From: "Mike Whaley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish I did some reasearch into this very thing back when I worked for Steen. Many builders wanted to use, or already had used, thinned T-88 to seal their wings. I got curious about whether that was really a good idea, so checked into it. It wasn't the worst idea ever, but not the best either. The thing about thinning epoxy with solvents (typically, T-88 with alcohol) for "sealing" purposes is that the evaporation of the solvent over time (outgassing) creates microscopic channels, bubbles, cracking, and general porosity within the cured resin matrix as the vapors escape. This happens not only during the curing process but also somewhat afterwards, as the trapped solvent buried within the epoxy tries to evaporate and escape any way it can. This is obviously counterproductive to the reason you're applying the stuff in the first place. While thinning epoxy with solvents is common, it is not (at least in theory) really such a great idea for long-term protection against moisture, which can soak in through all those cracks even though you can't see it. Now, whether the degradation in performance is actually enough to offset the cost of using this method, I cannot say. I suspect that there will be wide variations in porosity... even within the same batch applied at the same time to the same part. The manufacturers often remind os that you can safely use heat to "thin" the epoxy for easier application, without harming it's integrity... but that obviously can drastically shorten the working time. I think it's best to start with a product that's thin enough to work with from the start, or at least something intended by the manufacturer to be thinnned out. I might even consider using straight T-88, though this might be a pain in the rear. For things like the inside parts of ribs (like the interior surfaces of gussets and the joints they hold together) I would just put T-88 on the entire inside surfaces during assembly, on the assumption you wouldn't easily be able to get in there later. A thin film is more than enough. The good news is that I can't imagine that using a highly thinned epoxy coating would be likely to actually *cause* any direct damage or anything... rather, it would just fail to provide the protection you think you're getting, and add needless weight. I would bet that even an extremely thinned and porous epoxy coating still provides a lot more protection to the wood against the elements than not doing anything at all would! -Mike Mike Whaley MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Charvet" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [piet] Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish > > For what its worth, when I finished my fuselage I was planning to use > MEK based cement. I found a quart kit of epoxy resin used for making > resin tabletops at my local Ace Hardware aviation supply, for a very > reasonable price. I thinned it to the right consistency with MEK or > laquer thinner, I don't remember which, and it seems to have worked just > fine. After all that I decided to use the Stewart system glue, and > latex paint similar to your dad's plane, so my wings were spar > varnished. The epoxy was applied to the fuselage 2 years ago, and still > looks great. Hopefully I will be covering the fuselage by late spring.. > > I know others have used T-88 thinned with MEK and I did use that to do > my tail surfaces with similar success. > > Ben Charvet > Mims, Fl > Right wing covered and painted, left wing next! > > shad bell wrote: > > Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy > > varnish, that is cheaper. I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 > > where the fabric glues to the wings, tail. Poly Fiber from aircraft > > spruce is upwards of $170 a gallon. Spar varnish will not work in > > this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using, it is mek > > based, and will lift the varnish off the wood. Any sugestions > > appreciated. > > > > Building in snowy Ohio, > > Shad > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:00 AM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish Why not use the Stewart System and then use common spar varnish. It's a lot easier to use and the best part...no toxic fumes. Barry Big Piet builder The pic shows 2 center sections, 8 ailerons, 7 wing panels and 1 fuselage - the gray is Eko Fill UV and white is Eko Fill White - Stewart System ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: Pietenpol Discussion Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy varnish, that is cheaper. I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 where the fabric glues to the wings, tail. Poly Fiber from aircraft spruce is upwards of $170 a gallon. Spar varnish will not work in this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using, it is mek based, and will lift the varnish off the wood. Any sugestions appreciated. Building in snowy Ohio, Shad 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:34 PM PST US From: Steve Eldredge Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish I used standard varnish on all my parts, the rolled on poly fiber epoxy onto just the areas where the fabric would touch. Finished the entire airframe coating in an hour with half of my epoxy kit or more left over... Steve Eldredge - Sent from mobile device - -----Original Message----- From: "Mike Whaley" Sent: 1/29/09 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish I did some reasearch into this very thing back when I worked for Steen. Many builders wanted to use, or already had used, thinned T-88 to seal their wings. I got curious about whether that was really a good idea, so checked into it. It wasn't the worst idea ever, but not the best either. The thing about thinning epoxy with solvents (typically, T-88 with alcohol) for "sealing" purposes is that the evaporation of the solvent over time (outgassing) creates microscopic channels, bubbles, cracking, and general porosity within the cured resin matrix as the vapors escape. This happens not only during the curing process but also somewhat afterwards, as the trapped solvent buried within the epoxy tries to evaporate and escape any way it can. This is obviously counterproductive to the reason you're applying the stuff in the first place. While thinning epoxy with solvents is common, it is not (at least in theory) really such a great idea for long-term protection against moisture, which can soak in through all those cracks even though you can't see it. Now, whether the degradation in performance is actually enough to offset the cost of using this method, I cannot say. I suspect that there will be wide variations in porosity... even within the same batch applied at the same time to the same part. The manufacturers often remind os that you can safely use heat to "thin" the epoxy for easier application, without harming it's integrity... but that obviously can drastically shorten the working time. I think it's best to start with a product that's thin enough to work with from the start, or at least something intended by the manufacturer to be thinnned out. I might even consider using straight T-88, though this might be a pain in the rear. For things like the inside parts of ribs (like the interior surfaces of gussets and the joints they hold together) I would just put T-88 on the entire inside surfaces during assembly, on the assumption you wouldn't easily be able to get in there later. A thin film is more than enough. The good news is that I can't imagine that using a highly thinned epoxy coating would be likely to actually *cause* any direct damage or anything... rather, it would just fail to provide the protection you think you're getting, and add needless weight. I would bet that even an extremely thinned and porous epoxy coating still provides a lot more protection to the wood against the elements than not doing anything at all would! -Mike Mike Whaley MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Charvet" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [piet] Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish > > For what its worth, when I finished my fuselage I was planning to use > MEK based cement. I found a quart kit of epoxy resin used for making > resin tabletops at my local Ace Hardware aviation supply, for a very > reasonable price. I thinned it to the right consistency with MEK or > laquer thinner, I don't remember which, and it seems to have worked just > fine. After all that I decided to use the Stewart system glue, and > latex paint similar to your dad's plane, so my wings were spar > varnished. The epoxy was applied to the fuselage 2 years ago, and still > looks great. Hopefully I will be covering the fuselage by late spring.. > > I know others have used T-88 thinned with MEK and I did use that to do > my tail surfaces with similar success. > > Ben Charvet > Mims, Fl > Right wing covered and painted, left wing next! > > shad bell wrote: > > Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy > > varnish, that is cheaper. I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 > > where the fabric glues to the wings, tail. Poly Fiber from aircraft > > spruce is upwards of $170 a gallon. Spar varnish will not work in > > this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using, it is mek > > based, and will lift the varnish off the wood. Any sugestions > > appreciated. > > > > Building in snowy Ohio, > > Shad > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Selling Out From: "BHH" After much contemplation Ive realized that I just dont have the perseverance or funds to build a Piet so its time to sell out. I have the complete set of plans, plan supplements, builders manual, a couple of EAA pubs, and enough spruce and plywood to build the wing ribs and tail feathers (minus material for the rudder I built). I purchased the plans from Don Pietenpol and the wood from Wicks. I also have a set of hinges purchased from Vi Kapler. Everything has been stored safely and is in excellent condition. I looked up the cost of everything today and I have $1150 worth of materials. Id like $750 (plus shipping) for the entire lot. If youre interested email for pics and an itemized list of materials. Thanks. Bruce Bruce___@hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227565#227565 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:13 PM PST US From: Steve Eldredge Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish Just to clarify.. I purchased a quart kit of epoxy and used a small roller to apply the epoxy to just the surfaces that would touch the fabric. I had half a quart kit left over. Since then we have had to peel the fabric off the fuselage, and the epoxy coated varnished wood did not lift or suffer any damage. Much cheaper than either Epoxy everywhere or thinning T-88. Steve e. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Eldredge Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish I used standard varnish on all my parts, the rolled on poly fiber epoxy onto just the areas where the fabric would touch. Finished the entire airframe coating in an hour with half of my epoxy kit or more left over... Steve Eldredge - Sent from mobile device - -----Original Message----- From: "Mike Whaley" Sent: 1/29/09 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish I did some reasearch into this very thing back when I worked for Steen. Many builders wanted to use, or already had used, thinned T-88 to seal their wings. I got curious about whether that was really a good idea, so checked into it. It wasn't the worst idea ever, but not the best either. The thing about thinning epoxy with solvents (typically, T-88 with alcohol) for "sealing" purposes is that the evaporation of the solvent over time (outgassing) creates microscopic channels, bubbles, cracking, and general porosity within the cured resin matrix as the vapors escape. This happens not only during the curing process but also somewhat afterwards, as the trapped solvent buried within the epoxy tries to evaporate and escape any way it can. This is obviously counterproductive to the reason you're applying the stuff in the first place. While thinning epoxy with solvents is common, it is not (at least in theory) really such a great idea for long-term protection against moisture, which can soak in through all those cracks even though you can't see it. Now, whether the degradation in performance is actually enough to offset the cost of using this method, I cannot say. I suspect that there will be wide variations in porosity... even within the same batch applied at the same time to the same part. The manufacturers often remind os that you can safely use heat to "thin" the epoxy for easier application, without harming it's integrity... but that obviously can drastically shorten the working time. I think it's best to start with a product that's thin enough to work with from the start, or at least something intended by the manufacturer to be thinnned out. I might even consider using straight T-88, though this might be a pain in the rear. For things like the inside parts of ribs (like the interior surfaces of gussets and the joints they hold together) I would just put T-88 on the entire inside surfaces during assembly, on the assumption you wouldn't easily be able to get in there later. A thin film is more than enough. The good news is that I can't imagine that using a highly thinned epoxy coating would be likely to actually *cause* any direct damage or anything... rather, it would just fail to provide the protection you think you're getting, and add needless weight. I would bet that even an extremely thinned and porous epoxy coating still provides a lot more protection to the wood against the elements than not doing anything at all would! -Mike Mike Whaley MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Charvet" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [piet] Re: Pietenpol-List: Alternative epoxy varnish > > For what its worth, when I finished my fuselage I was planning to use > MEK based cement. I found a quart kit of epoxy resin used for making > resin tabletops at my local Ace Hardware aviation supply, for a very > reasonable price. I thinned it to the right consistency with MEK or > laquer thinner, I don't remember which, and it seems to have worked just > fine. After all that I decided to use the Stewart system glue, and > latex paint similar to your dad's plane, so my wings were spar > varnished. The epoxy was applied to the fuselage 2 years ago, and still > looks great. Hopefully I will be covering the fuselage by late spring.. > > I know others have used T-88 thinned with MEK and I did use that to do > my tail surfaces with similar success. > > Ben Charvet > Mims, Fl > Right wing covered and painted, left wing next! > > shad bell wrote: > > Group, Do any of you know of an alternitive to the poly fiber epoxy > > varnish, that is cheaper. I will need epoxy varnish on my Jungster 1 > > where the fabric glues to the wings, tail. Poly Fiber from aircraft > > spruce is upwards of $170 a gallon. Spar varnish will not work in > > this aplication due to the fabric cement I will be using, it is mek > > based, and will lift the varnish off the wood. Any sugestions > > appreciated. > > > > Building in snowy Ohio, > > Shad > > > > > > * > > > > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:14 PM PST US From: Steve Eldredge Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Selling Out Where are you located Bruce? Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BHH Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Selling Out After much contemplation Ive realized that I just dont have the perseverance or funds to build a Piet so its time to sell out. I have the complete set of plans, plan supplements, builders manual, a couple of EAA pubs, and enough spruce and plywood to build the wing ribs and tail feathers (minus material for the rudder I built). I purchased the plans from Don Pietenpol and the wood from Wicks. I also have a set of hinges purchased from Vi Kapler. Everything has been stored safely and is in excellent condition. I looked up the cost of everything today and I have $1150 worth of materials. Id like $750 (plus shipping) for the entire lot. If youre interested email for pics and an itemized list of materials. Thanks. Bruce Bruce___@hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227565#227565 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Selling Out From: "BHH" steve(at)byu.edu wrote: > Where are you located Bruce? > > Steve E. > > -- Near Cincinnati, Ohio. Thanks, I should have mentioned that. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227581#227581 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:14 PM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Selling Out Where are you Bruce???? Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of BHH Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Selling Out After much contemplation Ive realized that I just dont have the perseverance or funds to build a Piet so its time to sell out. I have the complete set of plans, plan supplements, builders manual, a couple of EAA pubs, and enough spruce and plywood to build the wing ribs and tail feathers (minus material for the rudder I built). I purchased the plans from Don Pietenpol and the wood from Wicks. I also have a set of hinges purchased from Vi Kapler. Everything has been stored safely and is in excellent condition. I looked up the cost of everything today and I have $1150 worth of materials. Id like $750 (plus shipping) for the entire lot. If youre interested email for pics and an itemized list of materials. Thanks. Bruce Bruce___@hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227565#227565 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:09 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: epoxy varnish, Non standard practice The main reason I need a really good adheasion of the epoxy varnish is this ; The airplane I am building does NOT use rib stitching.- It uses 1.25in wide ply capstrips and glue to hold the fabric to the wings.(prototype test ed to 200mph)- It HAS been successful in the past for this design with no known failures of the fabric peeling from the wings.- The cement used ha s been Good Year Pliobond brushed on to the capstrips, let dry, then put fa bric on, shrink and soak rib cap areas with mek to re-activate the pliobond and roll the dacron into the softened cement and let dry.- Yes I know th ere are probably 1000 old timers who will dissagree with this methood, but if there-is one-with experiance in this methhod I would love to here yo ur advise.- Any who have tried this methood and had bad results I value y our input also.- But all who say this is bad out of lack of knowlage or e xperiance , save your breath.- Don't mean to offend anyone, and sorry if this is off the Piet Topics, but just trying to get some good advise from long time, old school home builders, and where better than from the oldest homebuilt design ever. - - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:18 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Selling Out From: "BHH" davea(at)symbolicdisplays wrote: > Where are you Bruce???? > > Dave > > > -- Dave, I'm just east of Cincinnati, Ohio. Bruce Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227616#227616 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.