Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:11 AM - Re: latex (H RULE)
2. 04:13 AM - Re: latex (H RULE)
3. 04:37 AM - Re: latex (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
4. 04:46 AM - Re: latex-- some considerations (Phillips, Jack)
5. 06:33 AM - Latex (Lawrence Williams)
6. 06:38 AM - latex- some considerations (Oscar Zuniga)
7. 07:57 AM - Re: latex-- some considerations (Ryan Mueller)
8. 09:17 AM - Latex, latex latex (shad bell)
9. 01:33 PM - Re: latex-- some considerations (Gene & Tammy)
10. 09:02 PM - Re: latex (Rick Holland)
Message 1
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Personally I like the look of the country side ,it is beautiful! Oh the pai
nted board looks good too.=0A=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________
_____________________=0AFrom: Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>=0ATo: piete
npol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:22:57 PM=0ASubj
ect: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex=0A=0AI beg to differ Mike, I painted my now
famous "Latex test panel out in the corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Glos
s ext latex and it came out fairly glossy (and still is) and I didn't even
use the glossiest, they make a Super Gloss version of the stuff. =0AAnd as
far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and money to look
like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool ;)=0A=0ARic
k=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]
<Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote:=0A=0A-=0AIn accordance with the Radio
Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of 1934 establishing equal time, her
e are a few-about latex--- low cost, no fumes, easy to apply, water clean
-up, and if done properly protects the fabric from UV.---Fisher Flyin
g Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what I recall and ifmistak
en Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get that nice flat finish th
ey are looking for.--If a flat finish is desired latex is a good way to
go however there are additives I understand that can provide some gloss.
-- This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex looks like crap th
ough:)) =0A-=0AMike C. in Ohio=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A=0A=0A" target
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Atp://forums
.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A-- =0ARick Holland=0ACastle Rock, Colorado=0A
Message 2
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for some strange reason your emails are still not getting through with any
information in the body--- airlion@bellsouth.net" =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____
____________________________=0AFrom: "airlion@bellsouth.net" <airlion@bells
outh.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, February 16, 2
009 8:00:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex
Message 3
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Rick,
There was an older gent in the early 90's named Ed Snyder from Round Lake
NY who had a red and cream Model A Piet at Brodhead and it
was done entirely in latex and he had a very nice gloss to it so I believe
that you can achieve that type of finish if you desire it. Great enduranc
e
test you're performing.
Mikee
Message 4
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| Subject: | latex-- some considerations |
One consideration that I have not seen discused about latex is: How do
you repair it? Having had to make some repairs on my Pietenpol with its
Stits Aerothane polyurethane paint, I'm very sensitive to ease of
repair. Polyurethane requires sanding to remove it - you have to sand
it down (which is difficult without cutting through the underlying
fabric) until you get to the silver polyspray beneath, and then you can
use MEK to remove it. Pain in the Butt! PolyTone can be removed by
simply wiping it with MEK and repairs are dead easy. How easy is it to
remove latex?
Don't assume you will never have to repair your Pietenpol. It happens
to the best of us, due to accidents ranging from forced landings to
hangar rash.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Holland
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex-- some considerations
Hello Tim
Yes both sides were (and still are) equally taut. And even though the
one coat polybrush/three latex side punched through it only went through
at the very top of the range of the gauge, so I doubt if it makes that
much difference. But given the results I can see no reason to spend the
money on polybrush. As far a problems with drips, I spray painted my
entire house and painted the test panel with a brush and had no drip
problems (even with the paint thinned).
Rick
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tim Willis
<timothywillis@earthlink.net> wrote:
<timothywillis@earthlink.net>
Rick,
I had saved the results of your test, and recall that:
a) you were very pleased with the durability of the latex paint;
b) the latex paint over the first coat of PolyBrush did not fare as well
in your punch test as the side with four coats of latex.
You did not comment on the cause of this. Were all other variables held
constant; e.g., were both samples equally taut?
Based on your results, knowing nothing else, I would conclude that I
should not put latex over PolyFiber first coats. Is that right? Anyone
chime in on this part, if you like, for others must have done this very
thing.
In my case, I have enough PolyBrush stuff to do the primer and UV block
(silver), but have no finish paint. Since Mr. Market has cut my wealth
nearly in half in the last year, I am looking for shortcuts that will
lower the cost of the final build without sacrificing safety,
performance, or looks. I was planning the flatter PolyBrush finishes
anyway, to AVOID respirator and separate air supply for the glossy
stuff-- PolyTone? I suspect that, as Oscar points out, I can get as
good appearance with latex as with PolyBrush.
I have been considering doing the wings in white, and the fuze in a more
vibrant color. Others have done this, and I like the looks. (Jack
Phillips' plane is a good example.) With this in mind, I might make the
wings white latex and the fuze [at least firewall back] all PolyBrush.
I can more easily rotate each wing for painting, so that the surface
would be flat, to avoid runs with latex.
OTOH, latex on the fuze might allow the builder to use the same paint on
the fabric and the cowl, whether aluminum or fiberglass, or both.
I'd welcome comments from anyone on these considerations.
Thanks.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex
>
>I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out in
the
>corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out
fairly
>glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make a
Super
>Gloss version of the stuff.
>And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and
money
>to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool
;)
>
>Rick
>
>On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]
><Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote:
>
>>
>> In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act
of 1934
>> establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no
fumes,
>> easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the
fabric from
>> UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from
what I
>> recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get
that
>> nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired
latex
>> is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can
>> provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that
latex
>> looks like crap though:))
>>
>> Mike C. in Ohio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Rick Holland
>Castle Rock, Colorado
br> -List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
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orsk - Portuguese
Message 5
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I don't know who started escalating this cost comparison and I don't know w
here you are getting your figures but my whole airplane is done with the po
ly-fiber process and it was a whole lot cheaper than $3000. All of my recie
pts are in a box somewhere and I did my covering and painting over a period
of time (just like the rest of the project) so I didn't feel the bite all
at once. The entire airplane cost was $8000 and I am pretty sure that the p
oly-fiber bill was a bit less than $1000.
-
I chose poly-fiber because I'm not a gambler and I-just flat gave up an a
ll of the conflicting "expert opinions" about alternative finishes and went
with what had been proven to the F.A.A. and a whole lot of homebuilders ov
er a period of about 50 years. There have been a few aero paint companies t
hroughout the years that have disappeared but Poly-Fiber (Stitts) has estab
lished a strong track record and It was one more decision that I made with
the thought in mind that once it's done, it's done and I don't have to worr
y about it's performance.
-
Do what you want guys, just don't get the idea that your way is the revolut
ionary wave of the future and the rest of us are just too bone-headed to "g
et it". Variety is what keeps us moving and as things like this evolve, the
benefits will become obvious........so will the things to avoid.
-
Larry Williams xcg, xcmr, epp=0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | latex- some considerations |
1. I would not apply latex over Poly-Fiber finishes. Use one system
or the other. My concern would be for insufficient mechanical bonding
or gripping of the latex to the Poly-Brush or Poly-Spray=2C although
that's just my gut feeling and I have no actual peel tests to prove
anything either way. I guess that could be a whole other series of
tests =3Bo)
2. Punch testing: if you're using a Maule tester=2C read the Poly-Fiber
manual section on the subject. ALL finishes must be removed from the
test area before using the punch tester. You need to test the fabric=2C
not the finishes. In the case of Poly-Fiber system=2C you'd have to clean
the test area of all finishes down to bare fabric before testing=2C probabl
y
with MEK. In the case of latex=2C I think Steve Eldredge has demonstrated
a method using a heat gun to soften the finish and then roll it off=2C but
I'd
be very surprised if the initial coat (I guess I'll call it the grip coat)
can be
removed that way since it is intentionally applied so as to soak into the
weave and mechanically grip it. And of course you wouldn't want to use
any sort of chemical paint stripper on fabric.
3. I used the satin latex on my test panels and I'll bet the gloss finish i
s as
glossy as anyone would ever want to use on an airplane.
The Poly-Fiber manual explains that the Maule tester was developed for
use with organic coverings anyway (cotton)=2C NOT synthetics=2C and that
the actual test involves loading a strip of unfinished fabric with a certai
n
test weight to see if it fails. I don't have the number here but I believe
it's 46 lbs. weight. So the Maule tester should only be used as a pass/
fail indication of fabric condition=2C not as an absolute value of its
strength.
I have acquired a very simple fabric tester that the ultralight folks use
to test their Dacron sails. I got it from Lockwood Aviation. It's a modif
ied
belt tension tester with a small aluminum tip. I plan to test my fabric
samples (with finishes removed) every three months for the next year=2C as
they weather outdoors=2C not as a specific value of fabric strength but as
a relative indication between bare fabric and the three finishes that I use
d.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio=2C TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: latex-- some considerations |
>From Steve Eldredge, courtesy of WestCoastPiet:
"I'm flying my piet that is starting its tenth year of life under latex
finish. I've repaired it as well. I used the high gloss Sherwin Williams an
d
don't regret it. Check the archives for the process I used. Nice thing is,
two years ago when I needed to repair a wingtip, I marched down to the loca
l
paint store and they mixed up a quart of the same color and you can't tell
where the repair is. An iron at about 250 will roll the old latex off
exposing the underlying fabric nicely. No sanding. Very cool."
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Phillips, Jack <
Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wrote:
> One consideration that I have not seen discused about latex is: How do
> you repair it? Having had to make some repairs on my Pietenpol with its
> Stits Aerothane polyurethane paint, I'm very sensitive to ease of repair.
> Polyurethane requires sanding to remove it ' you have to sand it down (
which
> is difficult without cutting through the underlying fabric) until you get
to
> the silver polyspray beneath, and then you can use MEK to remove it. Pai
n
> in the Butt! PolyTone can be removed by simply wiping it with MEK and
> repairs are dead easy. How easy is it to remove latex?
>
>
> Don't assume you will never have to repair your Pietenpol. It happens to
> the best of us, due to accidents ranging from forced landings to hangar
> rash.
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> NX899JP
>
> Raleigh, NC
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Latex, latex latex |
Group,
As far as latex goes it works.- No it doesn't look as good as poly fiber
or hand rubbed dope.- It looks OK though.- If I built-my own-piet I
very well-MIGHT cover it and use latex, a go fast or acro, no I wouldn't
use latex.- I don't know, but just a W.A.G. (wild ass guess), that many
a piet in the 1930's-might have been-painted with barn paint, they all
seem red and white, or silver, and money was very hard to come by.- Proba
bly used what was on hand.- As far as repairs,- they are pretty easy wi
th latex.- We had to do a repair to the rudder due to the off airport lan
ding when the crank broke.- A 6 inch tear in both sides of lower rudder f
rom a flat sharp stone thrown up by the wheels.- Just had to use mek to s
trip off the paint, clean the fabric then glued on the patch with the ceco
bond, and repaint.- Also had to put a patch pannel on when we added the s
teerable tailwheel last spring.- So use what you like, have the money for
, or feel
comfortable with.- Yes safety is paramount, but let keep this real, "It
ain't the space shuttle".- Just don't put super decathalon struts, and an
IO-520 on it and I think your fabric will be OK.
-
Shad
p.s. I think I am going to use the HIPEC system on my Jungster 1, looks pro
mising.- Look it up at falconair's web site.=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: latex-- some considerations |
Good point Jack. The flybaby site bowersflybaby.com has the
answers to about all the questions that have been asked about painting
with latex. Very interesting site. Also a geat place for engine
advise. Another wonderful wooden homebuilt airplane.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:45 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: latex-- some considerations
One consideration that I have not seen discused about latex is: How
do you repair it? Having had to make some repairs on my Pietenpol with
its Stits Aerothane polyurethane paint, I'm very sensitive to ease of
repair. Polyurethane requires sanding to remove it - you have to sand
it down (which is difficult without cutting through the underlying
fabric) until you get to the silver polyspray beneath, and then you can
use MEK to remove it. Pain in the Butt! PolyTone can be removed by
simply wiping it with MEK and repairs are dead easy. How easy is it to
remove latex?
Don't assume you will never have to repair your Pietenpol. It happens
to the best of us, due to accidents ranging from forced landings to
hangar rash.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Holland
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:10 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex-- some considerations
Hello Tim
Yes both sides were (and still are) equally taut. And even though the
one coat polybrush/three latex side punched through it only went through
at the very top of the range of the gauge, so I doubt if it makes that
much difference. But given the results I can see no reason to spend the
money on polybrush. As far a problems with drips, I spray painted my
entire house and painted the test panel with a brush and had no drip
problems (even with the paint thinned).
Rick
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tim Willis
<timothywillis@earthlink.net> wrote:
<timothywillis@earthlink.net>
Rick,
I had saved the results of your test, and recall that:
a) you were very pleased with the durability of the latex paint;
b) the latex paint over the first coat of PolyBrush did not fare as
well in your punch test as the side with four coats of latex.
You did not comment on the cause of this. Were all other variables
held constant; e.g., were both samples equally taut?
Based on your results, knowing nothing else, I would conclude that I
should not put latex over PolyFiber first coats. Is that right? Anyone
chime in on this part, if you like, for others must have done this very
thing.
In my case, I have enough PolyBrush stuff to do the primer and UV
block (silver), but have no finish paint. Since Mr. Market has cut my
wealth nearly in half in the last year, I am looking for shortcuts that
will lower the cost of the final build without sacrificing safety,
performance, or looks. I was planning the flatter PolyBrush finishes
anyway, to AVOID respirator and separate air supply for the glossy
stuff-- PolyTone? I suspect that, as Oscar points out, I can get as
good appearance with latex as with PolyBrush.
I have been considering doing the wings in white, and the fuze in a
more vibrant color. Others have done this, and I like the looks. (Jack
Phillips' plane is a good example.) With this in mind, I might make the
wings white latex and the fuze [at least firewall back] all PolyBrush.
I can more easily rotate each wing for painting, so that the surface
would be flat, to avoid runs with latex.
OTOH, latex on the fuze might allow the builder to use the same paint
on the fabric and the cowl, whether aluminum or fiberglass, or both.
I'd welcome comments from anyone on these considerations.
Thanks.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex
>
>I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out
in the
>corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out
fairly
>glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make
a Super
>Gloss version of the stuff.
>And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and
money
>to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be
cool ;)
>
>Rick
>
>On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]
><Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote:
>
>>
>> In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act
of 1934
>> establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no
fumes,
>> easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the
fabric from
>> UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from
what I
>> recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to
get that
>> nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired
latex
>> is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that
can
>> provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that
latex
>> looks like crap though:))
>>
>> Mike C. in Ohio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Rick Holland
>Castle Rock, Colorado
==========
br> -List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
==========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you
is prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
Message 10
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I know its a tough job Mikey, but somebody has to do it.
Rick
Great endurance
> test you're performing.
>
> Mikee
>
>
> *
>
> =
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
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