---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/19/09: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:17 AM - electrical system (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 06:40 AM - Re: electrical system (Ameet Savant) 3. 06:40 AM - Re: electrical system (Robert Gow) 4. 07:23 AM - Re: electrical system (Wayne Bressler) 5. 07:23 AM - Re: electrical system (H RULE) 6. 07:41 AM - Re: electrical system (John Hofmann) 7. 08:26 AM - Re: electrical system (John Hofmann) 8. 08:28 AM - Re: electrical system (Jack Phillips) 9. 09:11 AM - Re: electrical system (Jim Ash) 10. 09:19 AM - Re: electrical system (Jim Ash) 11. 09:33 AM - Re: electrical system (Jack Phillips) 12. 09:49 AM - electrical system (Oscar Zuniga) 13. 10:07 AM - Re: electrical system (H RULE) 14. 10:09 AM - Transponder (helspersew@aol.com) 15. 01:11 PM - Re: electrical system (Gene Rambo) 16. 01:12 PM - Re: electrical system (Gene Rambo) 17. 03:08 PM - Re: 4130 (Andrew M Eldredge) 18. 03:22 PM - Re: electrical system (Jim Ash) 19. 03:22 PM - You do NOT need a transponder (helspersew@aol.com) 20. 03:27 PM - Re: electrical system (Jim Ash) 21. 03:54 PM - Re Aileron rigging (GR Hewitt) 22. 03:55 PM - Re: electrical system (Gary Boothe) 23. 04:11 PM - Re: Re Aileron rigging (shad bell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:54 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Howdy=2C low 'n' slow fliers=3B There are various regulatory references to aircraft with and without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have asked this question in the past but my memory isn't what I think it used to be (but I don't remember that=2C either). If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but there is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine to power the bus or recharge the battery=2C does that constitute an electrical system? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:16 AM PST US From: Ameet Savant Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it irrelevant. So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft (i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would not. Just my opinion! Ameet --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > From: Oscar Zuniga > Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > To: "Pietenpol List" > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM > Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; > > > > There are various regulatory references to aircraft with > and > > without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs > > define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have > > asked this question in the past but my memory isn't > what > > I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, > either). > > > > If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but > there > > is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine > to > > power the bus or recharge the battery, does that > > constitute an electrical system? > > > > Thanks. > > Oscar Zuniga > > Air Camper NX41CC > > San Antonio, TX > > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:16 AM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system I think the short answer is yes. You have a source of electrical power and a distribution system. There are electrical cables, hopefully fuses or circuit breakers and a load (radio) all installed on the aircraft. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: March 19, 2009 8:17 AM To: Pietenpol List Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; There are various regulatory references to aircraft with and without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have asked this question in the past but my memory isn't what I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, either). If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but there is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine to power the bus or recharge the battery, does that constitute an electrical system? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:28 AM PST US From: Wayne Bressler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system I'd recommend we consult the regs. My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is that you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. I still recommend we check the regs. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: > > > > > I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. > However, in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an > electrical system used to power some gizmo that is "installed" in > the aircraft. Whether the power source is mechanical (generator/ > alternator) or chemical (battery) it irrelevant. > > So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the > aircraft (i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as > an electrical system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self > powered unit would not. > > Just my opinion! > > Ameet > > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > >> From: Oscar Zuniga >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> To: "Pietenpol List" >> Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM >> Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; >> >> >> >> There are various regulatory references to aircraft with >> and >> >> without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs >> >> define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have >> >> asked this question in the past but my memory isn't >> what >> >> I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, >> either). >> >> >> >> If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but >> there >> >> is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine >> to >> >> power the bus or recharge the battery, does that >> >> constitute an electrical system? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> Oscar Zuniga >> >> Air Camper NX41CC >> >> San Antonio, TX >> >> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >> >> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:36 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Technically every aircraft has an electrical system.Something has to fire t hose spark plugs unless your flying a glider.=0A=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Oscar Zuniga =0ATo: Pietenpol List =0ASent: Thu rsday, March 19, 2009 9:17:13 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: electrical syst em=0A=0AHowdy, low 'n' slow fliers;=0A-=0AThere are various regulatory re ferences to aircraft with and=0Awithout electrical systems.- Does anyone know if the regs=0Adefine what constitutes an electrical system?- I may h ave=0Aasked this question in the past but my memory isn't what=0AI think it used to be (but I don't remember that, either).=0A-=0AIf a battery is us ed to power radios or anything else but there=0Ais no alternator or generat or fitted to the aircraft engine to=0Apower the bus or recharge the battery , does that=0Aconstitute an electrical system?=0A-=0AThanks.=0A=0AOscar Z uniga=0AAir Camper NX41CC=0ASan Antonio, TX=0Amailto: taildrags@hotmail.com -======================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:04 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few years back. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: > > > > I'd recommend we consult the regs. > > My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system > is that you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you > could have a battery and a starter, but so long as there was no > alternator or generator, there was no "electrical system". But > again, that's just my memory. > > I still recommend we check the regs. > > Wayne Bressler Jr. > Taildraggers, Inc. > taildraggersinc.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: > >> > >> >> >> I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. >> However, in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an >> electrical system used to power some gizmo that is "installed" in >> the aircraft. Whether the power source is mechanical (generator/ >> alternator) or chemical (battery) it irrelevant. >> >> So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the >> aircraft (i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute >> as an electrical system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a >> self powered unit would not. >> >> Just my opinion! >> >> Ameet >> >> >> --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >> >>> From: Oscar Zuniga >>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >>> To: "Pietenpol List" >>> Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM >>> Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; >>> >>> >>> >>> There are various regulatory references to aircraft with >>> and >>> >>> without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs >>> >>> define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have >>> >>> asked this question in the past but my memory isn't >>> what >>> >>> I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, >>> either). >>> >>> >>> >>> If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but >>> there >>> >>> is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine >>> to >>> >>> power the bus or recharge the battery, does that >>> >>> constitute an electrical system? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Oscar Zuniga >>> >>> Air Camper NX41CC >>> >>> San Antonio, TX >>> >>> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >>> >>> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:01 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system See Jeff Boatright's paragraph below my signature. Jeff is correct. That "may" constitute an electrical system depending on interpretation. Here is some text from AIM. Oscar, I have been assuming this is a transponder issue but i may be all wet. Would not be the first time. From the AIM (4-1-19): 2. In general, the CFR's require aircraft to be equipped with Mode C transponders when operating: (a) At or above 10,000 feet MSL over the 48 contiguous states or the District of Columbia, excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet AGL; (b) Within 30 miles of a Class B airspace primary airport, below 10,000 feet MSL. Balloons, gliders, and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from the above requirements when operating below the floor of Class A airspace and/ or; outside of a Class B airspace and below the ceiling of the Class B airspace (or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower); (c) Within and above all Class C airspace, up to 10,000 feet MSL; (d) Within 10 miles of certain designated airports, excluding that airspace which is both outside the Class D surface area and below 1,200 feet AGL. Balloons, gliders and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from this requirement. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > Might be different at various FSDOs, but as per a/c inspected in the > Atlanta area that I know of, an electrical system must have a > recharging component (e.g., alternator, generator). Note that it > need not be engine driven. I am pretty sure that wind-driven > alternators or generators would get your plane labeled as having an > electrical system by our FSDO, but I am not certain. > > HTH, > > Jeff > > At 9:38 AM -0500 3/19/09, John Hofmann wrote: >> In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as >> "engine driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and >> radio, with no way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a >> true electrical system per the regs. That's they way it was when I >> was restoring things a few years back. >> >> >> John Hofmann >> Vice-President, Information Technology >> The Rees Group, Inc. >> 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 >> Madison, WI 53718 >> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 >> Fax: 608.443.2474 >> Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com >> >> On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: >> >>> > >>> >>> I'd recommend we consult the regs. >>> >>> My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical >>> system is that you must have a transponder. I remember thinking >>> that you could have a battery and a starter, but so long as there >>> was no alternator or generator, there was no "electrical system". >>> But again, that's just my memory. >>> >>> I still recommend we check the regs. >>> >>> Wayne Bressler Jr. >>> Taildraggers, Inc. >>> taildraggersinc.com >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant >>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these >>>> cases. However, in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be >>>> an electrical system used to power some gizmo that is "installed" >>>> in the aircraft. Whether the power source is mechanical >>>> (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it irrelevant. >>>> >>>> So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the >>>> aircraft (i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute >>>> as an electrical system. On the other hand carrying the radio as >>>> a self powered unit would not. >>>> >>>> Just my opinion! >>>> >>>> Ameet >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Oscar Zuniga >>>>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >>>>> To: "Pietenpol List" >>>>> Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM >>>>> Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are various regulatory references to aircraft with >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs >>>>> >>>>> define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have >>>>> >>>>> asked this question in the past but my memory isn't >>>>> what >>>>> >>>>> I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, >>>>> either). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but >>>>> there >>>>> >>>>> is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> power the bus or recharge the battery, does that >>>>> >>>>> constitute an electrical system? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Oscar Zuniga >>>>> >>>>> Air Camper NX41CC >>>>> >>>>> San Antonio, TX >>>>> >>>>> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.matr &n - >>> &nbs --> http://www.matronics.com/co================ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Photoshare, and much much more: > > > -- > > _____________________________________________________________ > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis > mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:33 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system John is correct. If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode C transponder. However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging in flight. My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery). I use it to power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the Ah-Ooooga horn. Having the transponder is useful at times. Without it, I would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few years back. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: I'd recommend we consult the regs. My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is that you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. I still recommend we check the regs. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it irrelevant. So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft (i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would not. Just my opinion! Ameet --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; There are various regulatory references to aircraft with and without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have asked this question in the past but my memory isn't what I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, either). If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but there is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine to power the bus or recharge the battery, does that constitute an electrical system? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://www.matr &n - &nbs --> http://www.matronics.com/co================ Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:23 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system "Engine-driven" is the magic phrase. Batteries and turbine generators don't count. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Phillips >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 11:27 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >John is correct. If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in >flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode C >transponder. However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly >at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging >in flight. > > > >My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may >have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the >hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery). I use it to >power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the >Ah-Ooooga horn. Having the transponder is useful at times. Without it, I >would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last >June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. > > > >Jack Phillips > >NX899JP > > > > _____ > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > > >In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine >driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no >way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system >per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few years >back. > > > > > >John Hofmann > >Vice-President, Information Technology > >The Rees Group, Inc. > >2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 > >Madison, WI 53718 > >Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 > >Fax: 608.443.2474 > >Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com > > > >On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: > > > > >I'd recommend we consult the regs. > >My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is that >you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a >battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, >there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. > >I still recommend we check the regs. > >Wayne Bressler Jr. >Taildraggers, Inc. >taildraggersinc.com > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: > > > > > > > >I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, >in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used >to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power >source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it >irrelevant. > > > >So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft >(i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical >system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would >not. > > > >Just my opinion! > > > >Ameet > > > > > >--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > >From: Oscar Zuniga > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >To: "Pietenpol List" > >Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM > >Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; > > > > > > > >There are various regulatory references to aircraft with > >and > > > >without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs > > > >define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have > > > >asked this question in the past but my memory isn't > >what > > > >I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, > >either). > > > > > > > >If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but > >there > > > >is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine > >to > > > >power the bus or recharge the battery, does that > > > >constitute an electrical system? > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > >Oscar Zuniga > > > >Air Camper NX41CC > > > >San Antonio, TX > > > >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > > > >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.matr >&n - &nbs --> >http://www.matronics.com/co================ > > > > > > > > > >Email Forum - >Navigator to browse >List Un/Subscription, >7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:43 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Actually, you could have flow into Dulles without the transponder. The rules allow you to call ahead so they know you're coming. It can be a pain, but it gives you the option. If you don't call ahead, you can still try contacting the approach controller on the radio, but there's no guarantee they'll let you in. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Phillips >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 11:27 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >John is correct. If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in >flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode C >transponder. However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly >at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging >in flight. > > > >My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may >have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the >hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery). I use it to >power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the >Ah-Ooooga horn. Having the transponder is useful at times. Without it, I >would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last >June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. > > > >Jack Phillips > >NX899JP > > > > _____ > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > > >In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine >driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no >way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system >per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few years >back. > > > > > >John Hofmann > >Vice-President, Information Technology > >The Rees Group, Inc. > >2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 > >Madison, WI 53718 > >Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 > >Fax: 608.443.2474 > >Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com > > > >On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: > > > > >I'd recommend we consult the regs. > >My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is that >you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a >battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, >there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. > >I still recommend we check the regs. > >Wayne Bressler Jr. >Taildraggers, Inc. >taildraggersinc.com > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: > > > > > > > >I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, >in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used >to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power >source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it >irrelevant. > > > >So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft >(i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical >system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would >not. > > > >Just my opinion! > > > >Ameet > > > > > >--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > >From: Oscar Zuniga > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >To: "Pietenpol List" > >Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM > >Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; > > > > > > > >There are various regulatory references to aircraft with > >and > > > >without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs > > > >define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have > > > >asked this question in the past but my memory isn't > >what > > > >I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, > >either). > > > > > > > >If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but > >there > > > >is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine > >to > > > >power the bus or recharge the battery, does that > > > >constitute an electrical system? > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > >Oscar Zuniga > > > >Air Camper NX41CC > > > >San Antonio, TX > > > >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > > > >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.matr >&n - &nbs --> >http://www.matronics.com/co================ > > > > > > > > > >Email Forum - >Navigator to browse >List Un/Subscription, >7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:42 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system I didn't see that option in the briefing on flying into the Washington ADIZ. They barely tolerate VFR traffic and I think it would be an enormous battle to get in without a Transponder. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:19 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Actually, you could have flow into Dulles without the transponder. The rules allow you to call ahead so they know you're coming. It can be a pain, but it gives you the option. If you don't call ahead, you can still try contacting the approach controller on the radio, but there's no guarantee they'll let you in. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Phillips >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 11:27 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >John is correct. If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in >flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode C >transponder. However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly >at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging >in flight. > > > >My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may >have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the >hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery). I use it to >power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the >Ah-Ooooga horn. Having the transponder is useful at times. Without it, I >would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last >June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. > > > >Jack Phillips > >NX899JP > > > > _____ > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > > >In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine >driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no >way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system >per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few years >back. > > > > > >John Hofmann > >Vice-President, Information Technology > >The Rees Group, Inc. > >2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 > >Madison, WI 53718 > >Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 > >Fax: 608.443.2474 > >Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com > > > >On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: > > > > >I'd recommend we consult the regs. > >My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is that >you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a >battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, >there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. > >I still recommend we check the regs. > >Wayne Bressler Jr. >Taildraggers, Inc. >taildraggersinc.com > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: > > > > > > > >I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, >in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used >to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power >source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it >irrelevant. > > > >So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft >(i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical >system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would >not. > > > >Just my opinion! > > > >Ameet > > > > > >--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > >From: Oscar Zuniga > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >To: "Pietenpol List" > >Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM > >Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; > > > > > > > >There are various regulatory references to aircraft with > >and > > > >without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs > > > >define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have > > > >asked this question in the past but my memory isn't > >what > > > >I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, > >either). > > > > > > > >If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but > >there > > > >is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine > >to > > > >power the bus or recharge the battery, does that > > > >constitute an electrical system? > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > >Oscar Zuniga > > > >Air Camper NX41CC > > > >San Antonio, TX > > > >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > > > >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.matr >&n - &nbs --> >http://www.matronics.com/co================ > > > > > > > > > >Email Forum - >Navigator to browse >List Un/Subscription, >7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:02 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Jack wrote- >Without it=2C I would not have been able to fly it into >Dulles International Airport lastJune to put it on display >at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. Jack=2C I have very little doubt that you would still have been able to fly your airplane INTO Dulles without the xpdr. It may=2C however=2C have been a bit sticky explaining your presence sufficiently to allow you to get OUT if you showed up "negative xpdr" =3Bo) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:44 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system After 911 they are pretty anal about a lot of things!There isn't a hell of a lot you could knock down with a Piet but you could be carrying a bad cold .=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : Jack Phillips =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:32:31 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List ps" =0A=0AI didn't see that option in the briefing on flying into the Washington ADIZ.=0AThey barely tolerate VFR traffic and I think it would be an enormous battle=0Ato get in without a Transponder. =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matron ics.com=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J im Ash=0ASent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:19 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matro nics.com=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system=0A=0A--> Pietenpo l-List message posted by: Jim Ash =0A=0AActually, you could have flow into Dulles without the transponder. The rules=0Aallow you to call ahead so they know you're coming. It can be a pain, but it=0Agives you the option. If you don't call ahead, you can still try contacting=0Ath e approach controller on the radio, but there's no guarantee they'll let=0A you in. =0A=0AJim Ash=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Jack Phillip s =0A>Sent: Mar 19, 2009 11:27 AM=0A>To: pietenpol- list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system=0A>=0A >John is correct.- If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in =0A>flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a M ode=0AC=0A>transponder.- However, this is offset by being able to have li ghts and fly=0A>at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a mea ns of recharging=0A>in flight.=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>My Pietenpol has a ground ch arge only electrical system (some of you may=0A>have seen it at Brodhead la st year, with a long power cord running to the=0A>hangar where they serve b reakfast as I recharged my battery).- I use it to=0A>power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the=0A>Ah-Ooooga horn. - Having the transponder is useful at times.- Without it, I=0A>would no t have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last=0A>June t o put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum.=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A >Jack Phillips=0A>=0A>NX899JP=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>- _____- =0A>=0A>From: ow ner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com=0A>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John=0AHofmann=0A>Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM=0A>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Pietenpo l-List: electrical system=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>In my dealings with the Feds, the y define an electrical system as "engine=0A>driven." If you have a gell cel l powering a transponder and radio, with no=0A>way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system=0A>per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few=0Ayears=0A>back.=0A>=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>=0A>John Hofmann=0A>=0A>Vice-President, Information Technology=0A> =0A>The Rees Group, Inc.=0A>=0A>2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800=0A>=0A>Madi son, WI 53718=0A>=0A>Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150=0A>=0A>Fax: 608.443.2474 =0A>=0A>Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>On Mar 19, 2009, a t 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Wayne Bressler=0A>=0A>=0A>I'd recommend we consult the regs.=0A>=0A>My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is=0Athat=0A>you must have a transponder. - I remember thinking that you could have a=0A>battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator,=0A>there was no "electric al system".- But again, that's just my memory.=0A>=0A>I still recommend w e check the regs.=0A>=0A>Wayne Bressler Jr.=0A>Taildraggers, Inc.=0A>taildr aggersinc.com=0A>=0A>Sent from my iPhone=0A>=0A>On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, A meet Savant wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>--> Pietenpol -List message posted by: Ameet Savant =0A>=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>=0A>I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these ca ses. However,=0A>in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an elect rical system used=0A>to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraf t. Whether the power=0A>source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chem ical (battery) it=0A>irrelevant.=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>So if you power your handh eld with a battery sourced through the aircraft=0A>(i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical=0A>system. On the other h and carrying the radio as a self powered unit would=0A>not.=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A >Just my opinion!=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>Ameet=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>--- On Thu , 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote:=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>From : Oscar Zuniga =0A>=0A>Subject: Pietenpol-List: elec trical system=0A>=0A>To: "Pietenpol List" =0A >=0A>Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM=0A>=0A>Howdy, low 'n' slow fli ers;=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>There are various regulatory referen ces to aircraft with=0A>=0A>and=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>without electrical systems. - Does anyone know if the regs=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>define what constitutes an electrical system?- I may have=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>asked this question in th e past but my memory isn't=0A>=0A>what=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>I think it used to b e (but I don't remember that,=0A>=0A>either).=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A >=0A>If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but=0A>=0A>there =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engin e=0A>=0A>to=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>power the bus or recharge the battery, does tha t=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>constitute an electrical system?=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A > =0A>=0A>Thanks.=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>Oscar Zuniga=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>Air Camper N X41CC=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>San Antonio, TX=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>mailto: taildrags@hot mail.com=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net=0A>=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>http://www.matr < http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>=0A>&n- - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - &nbs- -->=0A>http:/ /www.matronics.com/co==================0A > =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> - =0A> - =0A> =0A>Email Forum -=0A>Navigator to brow se=0A>List Un/Subscription,=0A>7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,=0A>http://www.matro -======================== ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:23 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Transponder From: helspersew@aol.com You do NOT need a transponder just because you have an electrical system. As long as you stay out of any class of airspace?that requires one. I do not have one in my Aeronca Sedan (originally certificated WITH an electrical system.) ?What frosts me is that, according to the regs,?I cannot go inside of the 30 mile veil that surrounds Ohare, but if you have an airplane that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, you can fly inside of there all day long and even get as close as 5 miles from ORD. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. NX929DH ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:26 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system well, Jack could have flown into Dulles without a transponder, I have done it several times no radio and no transponder, it just has to be coordinated. I am a little surprised that Jack has a transponder on a battery only -- how long do you get out of it?? I have never tried, but always thought a transponder drained a battery pretty quickly, too quickly to be useful, but apparently not. Like everyone has said, if it was certified with an engine-driven electrical system, or if it was ever modified to have an engine-driven electrical system (you can't remove it), you have to have a transponder. Other than that, you are free. I have been fussed at by towers in class C airspace for having a radio and no transponder, but I proved them wrong every time (I kept the regulation cite handy and quoted it to them) Gene building wing like crazy ----- Original Message ----- From: Oscar Zuniga To: Pietenpol List Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Jack wrote- >Without it, I would not have been able to fly it into >Dulles International Airport lastJune to put it on display >at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. Jack, I have very little doubt that you would still have been able to fly your airplane INTO Dulles without the xpdr. It may, however, have been a bit sticky explaining your presence sufficiently to allow you to get OUT if you showed up "negative xpdr" ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:30 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system I'm not so sure about your statement that you must have charging to fly at night, a number of aircraft are certified and legal to fly at night on batteries only. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system John is correct. If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode C transponder. However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging in flight. My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery). I use it to power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the Ah-Ooooga horn. Having the transponder is useful at times. Without it, I would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. Jack Phillips NX899JP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few years back. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: > I'd recommend we consult the regs. My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is that you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. I still recommend we check the regs. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant > wrote: > I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it irrelevant. So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft (i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would not. Just my opinion! Ameet --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga > wrote: From: Oscar Zuniga > Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system To: "Pietenpol List" > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; There are various regulatory references to aircraft with and without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have asked this question in the past but my memory isn't what I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, either). If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but there is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine to power the bus or recharge the battery, does that constitute an electrical system? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://www.matr &n - &nbs --> http://www.matronics.c om/co================ http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribu tion http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 From: Andrew M Eldredge Speaking of 4130, 1. Is there a source for .25" stock in small pieces? 2. Is this what builders are using for the split axle gear attachment component which pins the bungee assembly? -- Andrew M. Eldredge Sahuarita, AZ 2009/3/18 Jack Phillips > Normalized. As for sheet size, it depends on what you are using to cut > them out. Bandsaw throat depths vary. Many can be cut from strip stock of > the appropriate width and thickness. I don=92t think there is a good way to > minimize wast, because, if you are like me, you=92ll make at least 3 to g et 2 > good ones. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of * > brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:25 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: 4130 > > > Group, > > In purchasing a sheet of 4130 for my fittings it is offered in =93Anneale d=94 > or =93Normalized=94 state, which is preferred? Also what size of sheet d o > most builders get that can get the number of fitting I need on it? > Thanks. > > Brian > > > *Brian Jardine* > *L-3 Communications > **Operations Project Engineer* > 640 North 2200 West > P.O.Box 16850 > Salt Lake City, UT 84116 > > L > > 801-594-3482 > > *brian.e.jardine@L-3com.com* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > =========== w.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =========== =========== com/contribution =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:16 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system When I first bought my Cub, I researched this one closely. At the time (early 90's), there was one company making portable transponders, mostly in service to the balloon guys. They didn't keep them in stock; they took orders, and when they had enough they'd make another batch of them. I talked to a few of the local low-and-slow guys who told me to just forget the whole concept and go flying. I forgot about the Washington ADIZ; maybe the nordo rules are different there. I was referring to the rules for classes B and C. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: Gene Rambo >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 4:09 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >well, Jack could have flown into Dulles without a transponder, I have done it several times no radio and no transponder, it just has to be coordinated. I am a little surprised that Jack has a transponder on a battery only -- how long do you get out of it?? I have never tried, but always thought a transponder drained a battery pretty quickly, too quickly to be useful, but apparently not. > >Like everyone has said, if it was certified with an engine-driven electrical system, or if it was ever modified to have an engine-driven electrical system (you can't remove it), you have to have a transponder. Other than that, you are free. I have been fussed at by towers in class C airspace for having a radio and no transponder, but I proved them wrong every time (I kept the regulation cite handy and quoted it to them) > >Gene >building wing like crazy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Oscar Zuniga > To: Pietenpol List > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:48 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > > Jack wrote- > > >Without it, I would not have been able to fly it into > >Dulles International Airport lastJune to put it on display > >at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. > > Jack, I have very little doubt that you would still have been > able to fly your airplane INTO Dulles without the xpdr. It > may, however, have been a bit sticky explaining your presence > sufficiently to allow you to get OUT if you showed up > "negative xpdr" ;o) > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: You do NOT need a transponder From: helspersew@aol.com "Like everyone has said, if it was certified with an engine-driven?electrical system, or if it was ever?modified to have an engine-driven electrical system (you can't remove it), you have to have a transponder." The above statement is not true. Reference FAR part 91.? Read closely and it never requires a transponder as long as you never penetrate any of the controlled airspaces indicated. Dan Helsper Polar Grove, IL NX929DH ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:10 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Someday when I grow up, I want to be self-important enough to have an ADIZ over MY house. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: H RULE >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 1:06 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >After 911 they are pretty anal about a lot of things!There isn't a hell of a lot you could knock down with a Piet but you could be carrying a bad cold. > >do not archive > > >________________________________ >From: Jack Phillips >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:32:31 PM >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > >I didn't see that option in the briefing on flying into the Washington ADIZ. >They barely tolerate VFR traffic and I think it would be an enormous battle >to get in without a Transponder. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:19 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > >Actually, you could have flow into Dulles without the transponder. The rules >allow you to call ahead so they know you're coming. It can be a pain, but it >gives you the option. If you don't call ahead, you can still try contacting >the approach controller on the radio, but there's no guarantee they'll let >you in. > >Jim Ash > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Jack Phillips >>Sent: Mar 19, 2009 11:27 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> >>John is correct. If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in >>flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode >C >>transponder. However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly >>at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging >>in flight. >> >> >> >>My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may >>have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the >>hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery). I use it to >>power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the >>Ah-Ooooga horn. Having the transponder is useful at times. Without it, I >>would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last >>June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. >> >> >> >>Jack Phillips >> >>NX899JP >> >> >> >> _____ >> >>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John >Hofmann >>Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> >> >> >>In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine >>driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no >>way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system >>per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few >years >>back. >> >> >> >> >> >>John Hofmann >> >>Vice-President, Information Technology >> >>The Rees Group, Inc. >> >>2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 >> >>Madison, WI 53718 >> >>Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 >> >>Fax: 608.443.2474 >> >>Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com >> >> >> >>On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I'd recommend we consult the regs. >> >>My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is >that >>you must have a transponder. I remember thinking that you could have a >>battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, >>there was no "electrical system". But again, that's just my memory. >> >>I still recommend we check the regs. >> >>Wayne Bressler Jr. >>Taildraggers, Inc. >>taildraggersinc.com >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, >>in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used >>to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power >>source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it >>irrelevant. >> >> >> >>So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft >>(i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical >>system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would >>not. >> >> >> >>Just my opinion! >> >> >> >>Ameet >> >> >> >> >> >>--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >> >> >> >>From: Oscar Zuniga >> >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> >>To: "Pietenpol List" >> >>Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM >> >>Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>There are various regulatory references to aircraft with >> >>and >> >> >> >>without electrical systems. Does anyone know if the regs >> >> >> >>define what constitutes an electrical system? I may have >> >> >> >>asked this question in the past but my memory isn't >> >>what >> >> >> >>I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, >> >>either). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but >> >>there >> >> >> >>is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine >> >>to >> >> >> >>power the bus or recharge the battery, does that >> >> >> >>constitute an electrical system? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Thanks. >> >> >> >>Oscar Zuniga >> >> >> >>Air Camper NX41CC >> >> >> >>San Antonio, TX >> >> >> >>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >> >> >> >>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>http://www.matr >>&n - &nbs --> >>http://www.matronics.com/co================ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Email Forum - >>Navigator to browse >>List Un/Subscription, >>7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>http://www.matro-======================= ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:23 PM PST US From: "GR Hewitt" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re Aileron rigging Have just started to rig ailerons. When Stick is central and ailerons are in neutral both upper & lower cables are equal in tension. But when full travel is reached both lower cables slacken off, particularly on the side of the down going aileron which goes unacceptably slack. Has any one else had this problem & what is the fix, I believe that the geometry of the horns is wrong, have experimented with several different shaped horns on the ailerons with out success. Thanks Graham Hewitt ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:08 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Jim, Even YOU can have an ADIZ. Here's the red-neck version... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (13 ribs down=85) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 3:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system Someday when I grow up, I want to be self-important enough to have an ADIZ over MY house. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: H RULE >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 1:06 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > >After 911 they are pretty anal about a lot of things!There isn't a hell of a lot you could knock down with a Piet but you could be carrying a bad cold. > >do not archive > > >________________________________ >From: Jack Phillips >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:32:31 PM >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > >I didn't see that option in the briefing on flying into the Washington ADIZ. >They barely tolerate VFR traffic and I think it would be an enormous battle >to get in without a Transponder. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:19 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system > > >Actually, you could have flow into Dulles without the transponder. The rules >allow you to call ahead so they know you're coming. It can be a pain, but it >gives you the option. If you don't call ahead, you can still try contacting >the approach controller on the radio, but there's no guarantee they'll let >you in. > >Jim Ash > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Jack Phillips >>Sent: Mar 19, 2009 11:27 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> >>John is correct.- If you have an engine driven method of re-charging in >>flight, then you have an electrical system and are required to have a Mode >C >>transponder.- However, this is offset by being able to have lights and fly >>at night, which you cannot legally do unless you have a means of recharging >>in flight. >> >> >> >>My Pietenpol has a ground charge only electrical system (some of you may >>have seen it at Brodhead last year, with a long power cord running to the >>hangar where they serve breakfast as I recharged my battery).- I use it to >>power the radio, the intercom and the transponder, and most important - the >>Ah-Ooooga horn.- Having the transponder is useful at times.- Without it, I >>would not have been able to fly it into Dulles International Airport last >>June to put it on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum. >> >> >> >>Jack Phillips >> >>NX899JP >> >> >> >>- _____- >> >>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John >Hofmann >>Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:39 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> >> >> >>In my dealings with the Feds, they define an electrical system as "engine >>driven." If you have a gell cell powering a transponder and radio, with no >>way to charge it in flight, then you do not have a true electrical system >>per the regs. That's they way it was when I was restoring things a few >years >>back. >> >> >> >> >> >>John Hofmann >> >>Vice-President, Information Technology >> >>The Rees Group, Inc. >> >>2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 >> >>Madison, WI 53718 >> >>Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 >> >>Fax: 608.443.2474 >> >>Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com >> >> >> >>On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Wayne Bressler wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I'd recommend we consult the regs. >> >>My memory says that the hangup with an FAA defined electrical system is >that >>you must have a transponder.- I remember thinking that you could have a >>battery and a starter, but so long as there was no alternator or generator, >>there was no "electrical system".- But again, that's just my memory. >> >>I still recommend we check the regs. >> >>Wayne Bressler Jr. >>Taildraggers, Inc. >>taildraggersinc.com >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:37, Ameet Savant wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I don't think the FAA actually differentiates between these cases. However, >>in my mind an aircraft electrical system would be an electrical system used >>to power some gizmo that is "installed" in the aircraft. Whether the power >>source is mechanical (generator/alternator) or chemical (battery) it >>irrelevant. >> >> >> >>So if you power your handheld with a battery sourced through the aircraft >>(i.e. running wires or a buss) would probably constitute as an electrical >>system. On the other hand carrying the radio as a self powered unit would >>not. >> >> >> >>Just my opinion! >> >> >> >>Ameet >> >> >> >> >> >>--- On Thu, 3/19/09, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >> >> >> >>From: Oscar Zuniga >> >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: electrical system >> >>To: "Pietenpol List" >> >>Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 8:17 AM >> >>Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>There are various regulatory references to aircraft with >> >>and >> >> >> >>without electrical systems.- Does anyone know if the regs >> >> >> >>define what constitutes an electrical system?- I may have >> >> >> >>asked this question in the past but my memory isn't >> >>what >> >> >> >>I think it used to be (but I don't remember that, >> >>either). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>If a battery is used to power radios or anything else but >> >>there >> >> >> >>is no alternator or generator fitted to the aircraft engine >> >>to >> >> >> >>power the bus or recharge the battery, does that >> >> >> >>constitute an electrical system? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Thanks. >> >> >> >>Oscar Zuniga >> >> >> >>Air Camper NX41CC >> >> >> >>San Antonio, TX >> >> >> >>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >> >> >> >>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>http://www.matr >>&n- - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - &nbs- --> >>http://www.matronics.com/co=============== = >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> - >> >>Email Forum - >>Navigator to browse >>List Un/Subscription, >>7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>http://www.matro-================== ===== ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:20 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Aileron rigging Grahm, I believe our piet does the same thing.- It is less severe with th e air load on the ailerons.- Ours are rigged with just a little droop on the ground, but are "neutral" in flight.- You will probably find the elev ator cables to do the same thing. - Shad=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.