Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 03/20/09


Total Messages Posted: 22



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 08:23 AM - Re: Re Aileron rigging (Don Emch)
     2. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Re Aileron rigging (H RULE)
     3. 09:50 AM - Russian Piet (Michael Silvius)
     4. 10:25 AM - Re: Russian Piet (Michael Perez)
     5. 10:48 AM - Re: Russian Piet (H RULE)
     6. 11:11 AM - Re: Russian piet (Michael Silvius)
     7. 02:47 PM - Turnbuckle Question (jimbir)
     8. 02:54 PM - Re: Re Aileron rigging (Don Emch)
     9. 03:31 PM - Re: Re: Re Aileron rigging (airlion@bellsouth.net)
    10. 03:32 PM - Re: Bare wood wing storage (Gene & Tammy)
    11. 03:47 PM - Re: You do NOT need a transponder (Gene Rambo)
    12. 05:04 PM - Wash-In, Wash-Out (shad bell)
    13. 05:17 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (H RULE)
    14. 05:33 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (airlion@bellsouth.net)
    15. 06:06 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Gene & Tammy)
    16. 06:22 PM - Re: Russian Piet (Paul N. Peckham)
    17. 06:23 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Al Hays)
    18. 07:18 PM - Some progress made (santiago morete)
    19. 07:52 PM - Re: Some progress made (TOPGUN)
    20. 08:06 PM - Re: Some progress made (Joemotis@aol.com)
    21. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: Russian Piet (Ryan Mueller)
    22. 09:34 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Mild Bill)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 08:23:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Re Aileron rigging
    From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
    If the ailerons are in line with the wing on the ground then the aileron cables are probably too tight. The top cable will be a little tighter than the bottom because it is carrying the weight of the ailerons. The bottom cables, which come down to the stick, will be slack. The aileron trailing edge will hang below the wing trailing edge maybe 3/16" or so. In flight the lower aileron cables will tighten up and the ailerons are just about in line with the wing. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235368#235368


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:25:48 AM PST US
    From: H RULE <harvey.rule@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Re Aileron rigging
    You should have your ailerons drooping on both sides about a 1/2 in. to an inch for wash out at the neutral position.At this time I forget what wash o ut is for but I'm sure someone will chime in and tell you.I'm getting old a nd forgetting things these days.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________ ____=0AFrom: Don Emch <EmchAir@aol.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:21:42 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: mchAir@aol.com>=0A=0AIf the ailerons are in line with the wing on the groun d then the aileron cables are probably too tight.- The top cable will be a little tighter than the bottom because it is carrying the weight of the a ilerons.- The bottom cables, which come down to the stick, will be slack. - The aileron trailing edge will hang below the wing trailing edge maybe 3/16" or so.- In flight the lower aileron cables will tighten up and the ailerons are just about in line with the wing.- =0A=0ADon Emch=0ANX899DE =0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.co -========================


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:50:43 AM PST US
    From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius@gwi.net>
    Subject: Russian Piet
    Just recieved these from Valdimir Buroga. In Russia. Thought you might find them interesting. Looks like in additon to the ovesized rudder it is also wider than standard. And how about that prop? engine is a Suzuki. Note the absence of a tail number. Michael in Maine


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:25:23 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Russian Piet
    Since the rudder does not match the vert. stab. at the top, I say that it i s a doner from another plane.- This plane has the "encased" ailerons like I am building into my plane, though my wing tip is quite different.- Sor ta odd to see a piet pic. in the snow...most are in sunny warm weather...ve ry cool. (no pun intended)


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:48:56 AM PST US
    From: H RULE <harvey.rule@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Russian Piet
    Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze and I'm waiting around till it gets up to at least 20 degrees celcius and look at these guys.Holy smokes I wouldn't even think of trying to fly in the snow let alone the temperatures.These guys got balls! do not archive ________________________________ From: Michael Silvius <silvius@gwi.net> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:45:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Russian Piet Just recieved these from Valdimir Buroga. In Russia. Thought you might find them interesting. Looks like in additon to the ovesized rudder it is also wider than standard. And how about that prop? engine is a Suzuki. Note the absence of a tail number. Michael in Maine


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:11:39 AM PST US
    From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius@gwi.net>
    Subject: re: Russian piet
    a few more here. note the intermediate arangement on the rudder. Michael


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:47:02 PM PST US
    Subject: Turnbuckle Question
    From: "jimbir" <jimbir@yahoo.com>
    The Piet drawings we're using call for 325-SF and 326-SF turnbuckles. I'm assuming one of them equates to an AN130-16S assembly of which I have one of. Is this the 325 or the 326? What is the AN equivalent of the other? Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235410#235410


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:54:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Re Aileron rigging
    From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
    The ailerons are really just hanging down because of their own weight and the fact that the cables really can't tighten up that much or binding will occur. Pretty common with the cable systems on the older ships. Drooping very much in flight would actually create some wash-in, which is something we do not want. Wash-in no, wash-out yes. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235414#235414


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:31:10 PM PST US
    From: airlion@bellsouth.net
    Subject: Re: Re Aileron rigging


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:32:47 PM PST US
    From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey@bentoncountycable.net>
    Subject: Re: Bare wood wing storage
    If the heat and cold hurt them while their in your garage, just think what will happen to them while their on your plane in and out of the hanger. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage Yes, my wing as well is varnished. I really have no where else to store them once built, so I guess they are both going to have to stay in the garage until ready for covering. I just hoped the heat/cold would not hurt them. (winters...Ohio) --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Jack T. Textor <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com> wrote: From: Jack T. Textor <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 3:45 PM My first wing, after varnish was hung on my basement ceiling. The wood for that wing had been in the heated basement for two years. The other day when getting ready to store my second wing I noticed quite a few loose bolts on the first one. I had no idea the wood dried out and shrunk that much after storing in the controlled atmosphere. Jack www.textors.com " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 12:00 AM


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:47:42 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: You do NOT need a transponder
    Ya know, Dan, I was referring to the instances when everyone was saying you need a transponder, not in EVERY instance. Don't be so literal, my statement is correct. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com<mailto:helspersew@aol.com> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:22 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: You do NOT need a transponder "Like everyone has said, if it was certified with an engine-driven electrical system, or if it was ever modified to have an engine-driven electrical system (you can't remove it), you have to have a transponder." The above statement is not true. Reference FAR part 91. Read closely and it never requires a transponder as long as you never penetrate any of the controlled airspaces indicated. Dan Helsper Polar Grove, IL http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://www.matronics.co m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on>


    Message 12


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    Time: 05:04:04 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Wash-In, Wash-Out
    Remember wash-in your adding lift (increasing angle of attack, or really in cidence i guess), and wash-out is taking lift out, (reducing angle of attac k.)- The reason for adding wash OUT, is to prevent the wing tip from stal ling first, and violently, rolling left or right at the stall (falling off) .- Wash out lets the inboard portion of the wing stall first, making it g entler.- Also it keeps the outboard portion of the wing flying, and helps keep aileron authority in the stall. - Just a quick and simple way to remember the two. Shad=0A=0A=0A


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:17:16 PM PST US
    From: H RULE <harvey.rule@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out
    There ya go I just knew somebody would know that stuff.I just do as I'm tol d by my AME and keep out of trouble.Sometimes.=0A=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: shad bell <aviatorbell@ya hoo.com>=0ATo: Pietenpol Discussion <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:58:53 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash- Out=0A=0A=0ARemember wash-in your adding lift (increasing angle of attack, or really incidence i guess), and wash-out is taking lift out, (reducing an gle of attack.)- The reason for adding wash OUT, is to prevent the wing t ip from stalling first, and violently, rolling left or right at the stall ( falling off).- Wash out lets the inboard portion of the wing stall first, making it gentler.- Also it keeps the outboard portion of the wing flyin g, and helps keep aileron authority in the stall.=0A=0AJust a quick and sim =======


    Message 14


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    Time: 05:33:09 PM PST US
    From: airlion@bellsouth.net
    Subject: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out


    Message 15


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    Time: 06:06:13 PM PST US
    From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey@bentoncountycable.net>
    Subject: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out
    Wonder if anyone is getting anything in these e-mails? I'm only getting a blank page. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: <airlion@bellsouth.net> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 19:01:00


    Message 16


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    Time: 06:22:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Russian Piet
    From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9@countryspeed.com>
    In the picture of the Piet during construction, it appeared to have the conventional tail. And the flying pictures, man I get cold just looking at them. We gotta get this guy to Brodhead. Paul N. Peckham Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235450#235450


    Message 17


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    Time: 06:23:41 PM PST US
    From: Al Hays <alhays@hickoryhillfarmsheep.com>
    Subject: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out
    I frequently get a blank page originating from folks whose email addresses are on bellsouth.net and find that the text can only be viewed by viewing raw source. Al On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Gene & Tammy wrote: > <zharvey@bentoncountycable.net> > > Wonder if anyone is getting anything in these e-mails? I'm only > getting a blank page. > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- From: <airlion@bellsouth.net> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out > > >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 19:01:00 > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 07:18:41 PM PST US
    From: santiago morete <moretesantiago@yahoo.com.ar>
    Subject: Some progress made
    Hello everybody!! - Here are some pictures showing the progress made in the past months. We're still working on most of those items and-a few more things. I hope you all are fine Saludos - Santiago=0A=0A=0A Yahoo! Cocina=0ARecetas pr=E1cticas y comida saludab le=0Ahttp://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/


    Message 19


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    Time: 07:52:43 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Some progress made
    From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo@lakefield.net>
    what radiator did you use? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235461#235461


    Message 20


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    Time: 08:06:52 PM PST US
    From: Joemotis@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Some progress made
    Beautiful work!!! What kind of wood did you use for the prop? Also, what kind of glue? Thanks for the great Pics Joe Motis WW Corvair Helping a friend assemble his Piet working on controls No Archivos In a message dated 3/20/2009 7:20:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, moretesantiago@yahoo.com.ar writes: Hello everybody!! Here are some pictures showing the progress made in the past months. We're still working on most of those items and a few more things. I hope you all are fine Saludos Santiago ____________________________________ Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr=E1cticas y comida saludable Visit=E1 http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 o r less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)


    Message 21


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    Time: 09:05:35 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Russian Piet
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Here's the gentleman's Youtube channel, with a couple short videos of his Piet. One is a slideshow of pics, one is taxi testing (well, doing donuts may be more accurate), and a fly-over. http://www.youtube.com/user/VLADIMIRBUGOGA Ryan On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Paul N. Peckham <peckham9@countryspeed.com>wrote: > peckham9@countryspeed.com> > > In the picture of the Piet during construction, it appeared to have the > conventional tail. And the flying pictures, man I get cold just looking at > them. We gotta get this guy to Brodhead. > > Paul N. Peckham >


    Message 22


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    Time: 09:34:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out
    From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank@charter.net>
    Does a Pietenpol really need washout for stability and control? Untwisted Hershey bar wings tend to have a stall progressing from the center out. On the other hand, fine tuning the twist along a Hershey bar wing can make the spanwise lift distribution closer to the ideal elliptical lift distribution, thus decreasing the induced drag. Minimizing induced drag for a rectangular wing requires a non-linear distribution of twist from root to tip, with the rate of change in incidence increasing as you go out toward the tip. Just to complicate our lives, the ideal twist distribution for minimum induced drag changes with the coefficient of lift - the higher the lift coefficient, the more twist required - so you have to pick the flight speed at which you want to minimize the induced drag. This will usually be the cruising speed since most planes spend the vast majority of their lives at cruise. It's been quite a while since I looked at this issue and crunched any numbers, but if memory serves me correctly you could do the following and be close to the ideal twist distribution for a Pietenpol in cruising flight: Looking only at the semispan, i.e. one half of the wing, leave the inner part flat and put in a linear twist distribution over the last 1/3 or so of the semispan (starting just outside the strut fittings would be OK) so that the wing tip incidence is -1 or -2 deg (i.e. nose down) relative to the root. Especially for a Pietenpol limping along on a Model A engine, you would want to go with the -2 deg, or even -3 deg. A twist a little beyond the ideal for cruise speed wouldn't significantly hurt at cruise speed (in effect just putting you back at about the same induced drag as the untwisted wing) but would help at the higher lift coefficient for climb speed. (So we see that the Pietenpol can be a legitimate example of picking a twist distribution to optimize for a speed other than cruising speed.) If anybody is interested I can drag out the textbooks and papers on aerodynamics and figure out the best twist distributions for cruise and for climb. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235478#235478




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