---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/20/09: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:23 AM - Re: Re Aileron rigging (Don Emch) 2. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Re Aileron rigging (H RULE) 3. 09:50 AM - Russian Piet (Michael Silvius) 4. 10:25 AM - Re: Russian Piet (Michael Perez) 5. 10:48 AM - Re: Russian Piet (H RULE) 6. 11:11 AM - Re: Russian piet (Michael Silvius) 7. 02:47 PM - Turnbuckle Question (jimbir) 8. 02:54 PM - Re: Re Aileron rigging (Don Emch) 9. 03:31 PM - Re: Re: Re Aileron rigging (airlion@bellsouth.net) 10. 03:32 PM - Re: Bare wood wing storage (Gene & Tammy) 11. 03:47 PM - Re: You do NOT need a transponder (Gene Rambo) 12. 05:04 PM - Wash-In, Wash-Out (shad bell) 13. 05:17 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (H RULE) 14. 05:33 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (airlion@bellsouth.net) 15. 06:06 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Gene & Tammy) 16. 06:22 PM - Re: Russian Piet (Paul N. Peckham) 17. 06:23 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Al Hays) 18. 07:18 PM - Some progress made (santiago morete) 19. 07:52 PM - Re: Some progress made (TOPGUN) 20. 08:06 PM - Re: Some progress made (Joemotis@aol.com) 21. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: Russian Piet (Ryan Mueller) 22. 09:34 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Mild Bill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re Aileron rigging From: "Don Emch" If the ailerons are in line with the wing on the ground then the aileron cables are probably too tight. The top cable will be a little tighter than the bottom because it is carrying the weight of the ailerons. The bottom cables, which come down to the stick, will be slack. The aileron trailing edge will hang below the wing trailing edge maybe 3/16" or so. In flight the lower aileron cables will tighten up and the ailerons are just about in line with the wing. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235368#235368 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:48 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re Aileron rigging You should have your ailerons drooping on both sides about a 1/2 in. to an inch for wash out at the neutral position.At this time I forget what wash o ut is for but I'm sure someone will chime in and tell you.I'm getting old a nd forgetting things these days.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________ ____=0AFrom: Don Emch =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:21:42 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: mchAir@aol.com>=0A=0AIf the ailerons are in line with the wing on the groun d then the aileron cables are probably too tight.- The top cable will be a little tighter than the bottom because it is carrying the weight of the a ilerons.- The bottom cables, which come down to the stick, will be slack. - The aileron trailing edge will hang below the wing trailing edge maybe 3/16" or so.- In flight the lower aileron cables will tighten up and the ailerons are just about in line with the wing.- =0A=0ADon Emch=0ANX899DE =0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.co -======================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:43 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Russian Piet Just recieved these from Valdimir Buroga. In Russia. Thought you might find them interesting. Looks like in additon to the ovesized rudder it is also wider than standard. And how about that prop? engine is a Suzuki. Note the absence of a tail number. Michael in Maine ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:23 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Russian Piet Since the rudder does not match the vert. stab. at the top, I say that it i s a doner from another plane.- This plane has the "encased" ailerons like I am building into my plane, though my wing tip is quite different.- Sor ta odd to see a piet pic. in the snow...most are in sunny warm weather...ve ry cool. (no pun intended) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:48:56 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Russian Piet Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze and I'm waiting around till it gets up to at least 20 degrees celcius and look at these guys.Holy smokes I wouldn't even think of trying to fly in the snow let alone the temperatures.These guys got balls! do not archive ________________________________ From: Michael Silvius Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:45:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Russian Piet Just recieved these from Valdimir Buroga. In Russia. Thought you might find them interesting. Looks like in additon to the ovesized rudder it is also wider than standard. And how about that prop? engine is a Suzuki. Note the absence of a tail number. Michael in Maine ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:39 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Pietenpol-List: re: Russian piet a few more here. note the intermediate arangement on the rudder. Michael ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckle Question From: "jimbir" The Piet drawings we're using call for 325-SF and 326-SF turnbuckles. I'm assuming one of them equates to an AN130-16S assembly of which I have one of. Is this the 325 or the 326? What is the AN equivalent of the other? Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235410#235410 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re Aileron rigging From: "Don Emch" The ailerons are really just hanging down because of their own weight and the fact that the cables really can't tighten up that much or binding will occur. Pretty common with the cable systems on the older ships. Drooping very much in flight would actually create some wash-in, which is something we do not want. Wash-in no, wash-out yes. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235414#235414 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:10 PM PST US From: airlion@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re Aileron rigging ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:47 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage If the heat and cold hurt them while their in your garage, just think what will happen to them while their on your plane in and out of the hanger. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage Yes, my wing as well is varnished. I really have no where else to store them once built, so I guess they are both going to have to stay in the garage until ready for covering. I just hoped the heat/cold would not hurt them. (winters...Ohio) --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Jack T. Textor wrote: From: Jack T. Textor Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 3:45 PM My first wing, after varnish was hung on my basement ceiling. The wood for that wing had been in the heated basement for two years. The other day when getting ready to store my second wing I noticed quite a few loose bolts on the first one. I had no idea the wood dried out and shrunk that much after storing in the controlled atmosphere. Jack www.textors.com " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 12:00 AM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:42 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: You do NOT need a transponder Ya know, Dan, I was referring to the instances when everyone was saying you need a transponder, not in EVERY instance. Don't be so literal, my statement is correct. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:22 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: You do NOT need a transponder "Like everyone has said, if it was certified with an engine-driven electrical system, or if it was ever modified to have an engine-driven electrical system (you can't remove it), you have to have a transponder." The above statement is not true. Reference FAR part 91. Read closely and it never requires a transponder as long as you never penetrate any of the controlled airspaces indicated. Dan Helsper Polar Grove, IL http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:04 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out Remember wash-in your adding lift (increasing angle of attack, or really in cidence i guess), and wash-out is taking lift out, (reducing angle of attac k.)- The reason for adding wash OUT, is to prevent the wing tip from stal ling first, and violently, rolling left or right at the stall (falling off) .- Wash out lets the inboard portion of the wing stall first, making it g entler.- Also it keeps the outboard portion of the wing flying, and helps keep aileron authority in the stall. - Just a quick and simple way to remember the two. Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:16 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out There ya go I just knew somebody would know that stuff.I just do as I'm tol d by my AME and keep out of trouble.Sometimes.=0A=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: shad bell =0ATo: Pietenpol Discussion =0ASent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:58:53 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash- Out=0A=0A=0ARemember wash-in your adding lift (increasing angle of attack, or really incidence i guess), and wash-out is taking lift out, (reducing an gle of attack.)- The reason for adding wash OUT, is to prevent the wing t ip from stalling first, and violently, rolling left or right at the stall ( falling off).- Wash out lets the inboard portion of the wing stall first, making it gentler.- Also it keeps the outboard portion of the wing flyin g, and helps keep aileron authority in the stall.=0A=0AJust a quick and sim ======= ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:09 PM PST US From: airlion@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:13 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out Wonder if anyone is getting anything in these e-mails? I'm only getting a blank page. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 19:01:00 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Russian Piet From: "Paul N. Peckham" In the picture of the Piet during construction, it appeared to have the conventional tail. And the flying pictures, man I get cold just looking at them. We gotta get this guy to Brodhead. Paul N. Peckham Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235450#235450 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:41 PM PST US From: Al Hays Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out I frequently get a blank page originating from folks whose email addresses are on bellsouth.net and find that the text can only be viewed by viewing raw source. Al On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Gene & Tammy wrote: > > > Wonder if anyone is getting anything in these e-mails? I'm only > getting a blank page. > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out > > >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 19:01:00 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:41 PM PST US From: santiago morete Subject: Pietenpol-List: Some progress made Hello everybody!! - Here are some pictures showing the progress made in the past months. We're still working on most of those items and-a few more things. I hope you all are fine Saludos - Santiago=0A=0A=0A Yahoo! Cocina=0ARecetas pr=E1cticas y comida saludab le=0Ahttp://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some progress made From: "TOPGUN" what radiator did you use? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235461#235461 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:52 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Some progress made Beautiful work!!! What kind of wood did you use for the prop? Also, what kind of glue? Thanks for the great Pics Joe Motis WW Corvair Helping a friend assemble his Piet working on controls No Archivos In a message dated 3/20/2009 7:20:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, moretesantiago@yahoo.com.ar writes: Hello everybody!! Here are some pictures showing the progress made in the past months. We're still working on most of those items and a few more things. I hope you all are fine Saludos Santiago ____________________________________ Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr=E1cticas y comida saludable Visit=E1 http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 o r less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Russian Piet From: Ryan Mueller Here's the gentleman's Youtube channel, with a couple short videos of his Piet. One is a slideshow of pics, one is taxi testing (well, doing donuts may be more accurate), and a fly-over. http://www.youtube.com/user/VLADIMIRBUGOGA Ryan On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Paul N. Peckham wrote: > peckham9@countryspeed.com> > > In the picture of the Piet during construction, it appeared to have the > conventional tail. And the flying pictures, man I get cold just looking at > them. We gotta get this guy to Brodhead. > > Paul N. Peckham > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out From: "Mild Bill" Does a Pietenpol really need washout for stability and control? Untwisted Hershey bar wings tend to have a stall progressing from the center out. On the other hand, fine tuning the twist along a Hershey bar wing can make the spanwise lift distribution closer to the ideal elliptical lift distribution, thus decreasing the induced drag. Minimizing induced drag for a rectangular wing requires a non-linear distribution of twist from root to tip, with the rate of change in incidence increasing as you go out toward the tip. Just to complicate our lives, the ideal twist distribution for minimum induced drag changes with the coefficient of lift - the higher the lift coefficient, the more twist required - so you have to pick the flight speed at which you want to minimize the induced drag. This will usually be the cruising speed since most planes spend the vast majority of their lives at cruise. It's been quite a while since I looked at this issue and crunched any numbers, but if memory serves me correctly you could do the following and be close to the ideal twist distribution for a Pietenpol in cruising flight: Looking only at the semispan, i.e. one half of the wing, leave the inner part flat and put in a linear twist distribution over the last 1/3 or so of the semispan (starting just outside the strut fittings would be OK) so that the wing tip incidence is -1 or -2 deg (i.e. nose down) relative to the root. Especially for a Pietenpol limping along on a Model A engine, you would want to go with the -2 deg, or even -3 deg. A twist a little beyond the ideal for cruise speed wouldn't significantly hurt at cruise speed (in effect just putting you back at about the same induced drag as the untwisted wing) but would help at the higher lift coefficient for climb speed. (So we see that the Pietenpol can be a legitimate example of picking a twist distribution to optimize for a speed other than cruising speed.) If anybody is interested I can drag out the textbooks and papers on aerodynamics and figure out the best twist distributions for cruise and for climb. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235478#235478 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.