---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/21/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Santiago's progress (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (amsafetyc@aol.com) 3. 05:59 AM - Re: Some progress made (Gene & Tammy) 4. 06:07 AM - Re: Some progress made (H RULE) 5. 06:48 AM - Bracing wire (jimbir) 6. 06:48 AM - Re: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Ameet Savant) 7. 07:04 AM - Re: Bracing wire (Gary Boothe) 8. 10:43 AM - Re: Bare wood wing storage (Michael Perez) 9. 11:31 AM - Re: Santiago's progress (Tim Willis) 10. 03:59 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (airlion@bellsouth.net) 11. 04:43 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Gene & Tammy) 12. 04:48 PM - Re: Bare wood wing storage (Gene & Tammy) 13. 11:34 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Mild Bill) 14. 11:38 PM - Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out (Mild Bill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Santiago's progress From: helspersew@aol.com Wow! Santiago your work is exquisite especially like the way you brought-up the steel firewall onto the tray area behind the Model A. Not easy to do but you made it look easy. Is this the same prop that you carved originally? A beautiful work of art, to be sure. Dan Helsper ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out From: amsafetyc@aol.com That would be some great information to have John ------Original Message------ From: Mild Bill Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Mar 21, 2009 12:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out Does a Pietenpol really need washout for stability and control? Untwisted Hershey bar wings tend to have a stall progressing from the center out. On the other hand, fine tuning the twist along a Hershey bar wing can make the spanwise lift distribution closer to the ideal elliptical lift distribution, thus decreasing the induced drag. Minimizing induced drag for a rectangular wing requires a non-linear distribution of twist from root to tip, with the rate of change in incidence increasing as you go out toward the tip. Just to complicate our lives, the ideal twist distribution for minimum induced drag changes with the coefficient of lift - the higher the lift coefficient, the more twist required - so you have to pick the flight speed at which you want to minimize the induced drag. This will usually be the cruising speed since most planes spend the vast majority of their lives at cruise. It's been quite a while since I looked at this issue and crunched any numbers, but if memory serves me correctly you could do the following and be close to the ideal twist distribution for a Pietenpol in cruising flight: Looking only at the semispan, i.e. one half of the wing, leave the inner part flat and put in a linear twist distribution over the last 1/3 or so of the semispan (starting just outside the strut fittings would be OK) so that the wing tip incidence is -1 or -2 deg (i.e. nose down) relative to the root. Especially for a Pietenpol limping along on a Model A engine, you would want to go with the -2 deg, or even -3 deg. A twist a little beyond the ideal for cruise speed wouldn't significantly hurt at cruise speed (in effect just putting you back at about the same induced drag as the untwisted wing) but would help at the higher lift coefficient for climb speed. (So we see that the Pietenpol can be a legitimate example of picking a twist distribution to optimize for a speed other than cruising speed.) If anybody is interested I can drag out the textbooks and papers on aerodynamics and figure out the best twist distributions for cruise and for climb. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235478#235478 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:33 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Some progress made WOW!!! Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: santiago morete To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 9:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Some progress made Hello everybody!! Here are some pictures showing the progress made in the past months. We're still working on most of those items and a few more things. I hope you all are fine Saludos Santiago ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Yahoo! Cocina Recetas pr=E1cticas y comida saludable Visit=E1 http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 03/20/09 19:01:00 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:55 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Some progress made It is a shame you have to cover up most of that beautiful job you did with fabric.=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0AFrom: santiago morete =0ATo: pietenpol-list @matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:15:58 PM=0ASubject: Pieten pol-List: Some progress made=0A=0A=0AHello everybody!!=0A=0AHere are some p ictures showing the progress made in the past months. =0AWe're still workin g on most of those items and-a few more things.=0AI hope you all are fine =0ASaludos=0A=0ASantiago =0A________________________________=0A=0AYahoo! Co cina=0ARecetas pr=E1cticas y comida saludable=0AVisit=E1 http://ar.mujer.ya hoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bracing wire From: "jimbir" The piet plans call for 13 ga. wire to be used for the drag and antidrag brace wires. What diameter is that in inches? I'm finding a range of .072 to .091 depending on where I look. Thanks -------- Jim Birke Ira G. Ross Aerospace Museum Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235502#235502 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:47 AM PST US From: Ameet Savant Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out Please read a counter point here http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=170 Ameet --- On Sat, 3/21/09, amsafetyc@aol.com wrote: > From: amsafetyc@aol.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009, 7:43 AM > > That would be some great information to have > > John > ------Original Message------ > From: Mild Bill > Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Mar 21, 2009 12:33 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out > > Bill" > > Does a Pietenpol really need washout for stability and > control? Untwisted Hershey bar wings tend to have a stall > progressing from the center out. > > On the other hand, fine tuning the twist along a Hershey > bar wing can make the spanwise lift distribution closer to > the ideal elliptical lift distribution, thus decreasing the > induced drag. Minimizing induced drag for a rectangular wing > requires a non-linear distribution of twist from root to > tip, with the rate of change in incidence increasing as you > go out toward the tip. Just to complicate our lives, the > ideal twist distribution for minimum induced drag changes > with the coefficient of lift - the higher the lift > coefficient, the more twist required - so you have to pick > the flight speed at which you want to minimize the induced > drag. This will usually be the cruising speed since most > planes spend the vast majority of their lives at cruise. > > It's been quite a while since I looked at this issue > and crunched any numbers, but if memory serves me correctly > you could do the following and be close to the ideal twist > distribution for a Pietenpol in cruising flight: Looking > only at the semispan, i.e. one half of the wing, leave the > inner part flat and put in a linear twist distribution over > the last 1/3 or so of the semispan (starting just outside > the strut fittings would be OK) so that the wing tip > incidence is -1 or -2 deg (i.e. nose down) relative to the > root. > > Especially for a Pietenpol limping along on a Model A > engine, you would want to go with the -2 deg, or even -3 > deg. A twist a little beyond the ideal for cruise speed > wouldn't significantly hurt at cruise speed (in effect > just putting you back at about the same induced drag as the > untwisted wing) but would help at the higher lift > coefficient for climb speed. (So we see that the Pietenpol > can be a legitimate example of picking a twist distribution > to optimize for a speed other than cruising speed.) > > If anybody is interested I can drag out the textbooks and > papers on aerodynamics and figure out the best twist > distributions for cruise and for climb. > > -------- > Bill Frank > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235478#235478 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:35 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bracing wire American Wire Gauge (AWG) says .072. Imperial Standard Wire Gauge (British Standard, SWG) says .092. I would think that BP used AWG. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (13 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimbir Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 6:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bracing wire The piet plans call for 13 ga. wire to be used for the drag and antidrag brace wires. What diameter is that in inches? I'm finding a range of .072 to .091 depending on where I look. Thanks -------- Jim Birke Ira G. Ross Aerospace Museum Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235502#235502 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:00 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage I meant as a bare wood wing. I would have no concers once covered, with the drag cables in place. --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Gene & Tammy wrote: From: Gene & Tammy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage If the heat and cold hurt them while their in your garage, just think what will happen to them while their on your plane in and out of the hanger. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage Yes, my wing as well is varnished. I really have no where else to store the m once built, so I guess they are both going to have to stay in the garage until ready for covering. I just hoped the heat/cold would not hurt them. ( winters...Ohio) --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Jack T. Textor wrote: From: Jack T. Textor Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 #yiv856241227 P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE:12pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 A:link { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 A:visited { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 PRE { FONT-SIZE:10pt;MARGIN:0in 0in 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Courier New";} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR:navy;FONT-FAMILY:Arial;} #yiv245429149 UNKNOWN { MARGIN:1in 1.25in;} #yiv245429149 #yiv856241227 DIV.Section1 { } My first wing, after varnish was hung on my basement ceiling.- The wood f or that wing had been in the heated basement for two years.- The other da y when getting ready to store my second wing I noticed quite a few loose bo lts on the first one.- I had no idea the wood dried out and shrunk that m uch after storing in the controlled atmosphere. Jack www.textors.com - " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenp ol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 3/17/2009 12:00 AM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:16 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Santiago's progress Santiago, Your workmanship is excellent; beautiful product; gorgeous prop. Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: helspersew@aol.com >Sent: Mar 21, 2009 6:34 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Santiago's progress > >Wow! Santiago your work is exquisite especially like the way you brought-up the steel firewall onto the tray area behind the Model A. Not easy to do but you made it look easy. Is this the same prop that you carved originally? A beautiful work of art, to be sure. > >Dan Helsper ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:58 PM PST US From: airlion@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:28 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out still no msg. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wash-In, Wash-Out > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 19:01:00 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:09 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage With a good coat of varnish I would think it should be well protected. My two cents worth. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage I meant as a bare wood wing. I would have no concers once covered, with the drag cables in place. --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Gene & Tammy wrote: From: Gene & Tammy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 6:30 PM If the heat and cold hurt them while their in your garage, just think what will happen to them while their on your plane in and out of the hanger. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage Yes, my wing as well is varnished. I really have no where else to store them once built, so I guess they are both going to have to stay in the garage until ready for covering. I just hoped the heat/cold would not hurt them. (winters...Ohio) --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Jack T. Textor wrote: From: Jack T. Textor Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bare wood wing storage To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 3:45 PM My first wing, after varnish was hung on my basement ceiling. The wood for that wing had been in the heated basement for two years. The other day when getting ready to store my second wing I noticed quite a few loose bolts on the first one. I had no idea the wood dried out and shrunk that much after storing in the controlled atmosphere. Jack www.textors.com " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c -------------------------------------------------------------------- 3/17/2009 12:00 AM " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 03/20/09 19:01:00 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out From: "Mild Bill" Amsafetyc wrote: > That would be some great information to have > > John > --- OK. I'm going on vacation, so it may be a little over a week before I can submit the details. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235592#235592 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:58 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wash-In, Wash-Out From: "Mild Bill" ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Please read a counter point here http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=170 > > Ameet You've got me scratching my head here - counterpoint to what? No one in this thread was advocating tapered wings for Pietenpols. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235593#235593 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.