Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:52 AM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (helspersew@aol.com)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (Jack Phillips)
3. 05:37 AM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (Lagowski Morrow)
4. 10:54 AM - Hiller Aviation Museum (Oscar Zuniga)
5. 11:09 AM - Re: Hiller Aviation Museum (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
6. 11:37 AM - Re: Hiller Aviation Museum (Bill Church)
7. 12:28 PM - Re: stall speeds (jimd)
8. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jack Phillips)
9. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jeff Boatright)
10. 12:47 PM - Re: Hiller Aviation Museum (Jack Phillips)
11. 01:05 PM - Re: stall speeds (jimd)
12. 02:18 PM - stall speeds (Oscar Zuniga)
13. 03:10 PM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (gliderx5@comcast.net)
14. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (gliderx5@comcast.net)
15. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
16. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jeff Boatright)
17. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jeff Boatright)
18. 09:23 PM - Re: stall speeds (jimd)
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| Subject: | Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers |
Matt,
Referring to the table in chapter 2 of FAA Circular AC43-13, it shows for slow
aircraft 2 1/2" in the prop wash and 3 1/2 outside of it. You should be fine.
You ultimately can do anything you want since this airplane is an "experiment".
I have used 3 1/2 on my tail feathers. I just went out in the hangar and measured
the tail rib stitching on my Aeroca Sedan (145 HP) and it is 3" spacing.
So as you can see it varies widely.? I figure if 3" is good enough there 3 1/2"
is good enough on my slow Piet. On the wing (the concern is closer to the prop)
I am going to double-up and use 1 3/4".
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
-----Original Message-----
From: Woodflier@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 8:27 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers
OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using 2
1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that if the
spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the spacing called
for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going
to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up the stitches?
?
Matt Paxton
The Average US21621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
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| Subject: | Rib lacing on tail feathers |
Matt, 2-1/2" is the recommended spacing in the propwash unless your VNE is
greater than 175 mph. If you keep the rib-lacing as done, you will have to
limit your Piet to speeds less than 175. It is conceivable that the tail
could see such speeds, after the wings have been shed in a terminal velocity
dive.
Incidentally, I used the 2-1/2" spacing on my entire wing, just to make it
easier. It only added a couple of extra stitches per rib.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Woodflier@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers
OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using
2 1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that
if the spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the
spacing called for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2
inches going to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up
the stitches?
Matt Paxton
_____
The Average
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| Subject: | Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers |
Matt, I used 2 1/2" spacing in the prop wash area per the diagram in the
Polyfiber manual, and then decided to use 2 1/2" everywhere for uniform
appearance--Jim Lagowski
----- Original Message -----
From: Woodflier@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers
OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer,
using 2 1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber
manual that if the spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should
use half the spacing called for in propwash areas. What have other
people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going to be close enough or should I remove
the tapes and double up the stitches?
Matt Paxton
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04/13/09 17:56:00
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| Subject: | Hiller Aviation Museum |
G'day=2C low 'n' slow fliers=3B
A friend here at work just came back from a trip to the San Francisco bay a
rea and he spoke very highly of the Hiller Aviation Museum at the San Carlo
s Airport. He said that there is a superb example of a single-piece wing
=2C Ford "A"-powered Air Camper in the museum. Has anyone seen this and do
es anyone know who built it? Supposedly a 1960s era built airplane.
Thanks.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio=2C TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Hiller Aviation Museum |
But Oscar, didn't he notice the very cool Long-ez up on the roof? =)
(you can see it with google earth)
I used to fly out of there with a friend, I lived on a yacht in a marina
about half a mile south of there and birds in the pattern would fly over.
See y'all at SNF next week, find us in the Alternative Engines tent. We
were going to bring a new Piet engine mount but have a major project that has
to be finished first.
...Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
In a message dated 4/14/2009 12:55:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
taildrags@hotmail.com writes:
G'day, low 'n' slow fliers;
A friend here at work just came back from a trip to the San Francisco bay
area and he spoke very highly of the Hiller Aviation Museum at the San
Carlos Airport. He said that there is a superb example of a single-piece wing,
Ford "A"-powered Air Camper in the museum. Has anyone seen this and does
anyone know who built it? Supposedly a 1960s era built airplane.
Thanks.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: _taildrags@hotmail.com_ (mailto:taildrags@hotmail.com)
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Hiller Aviation Museum |
Just did a quick search of the world-wide interweb and found a couple of
shots of the Piet in question:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2984200180077698672RmVTIZ
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2355033650077698672NARHvg
Bill C.
<http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2984200180077698672RmVTIZ>
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Hi,
Looked thru the archives and noticed that vortex generators have been mentioned,
and a number of people said they were going to experiment with them, but I couldn't
find where anyone had actually tried them out on a piet. Seems like about
35 mph is accepted as the average stall speed. Anyone have before/after numbers?
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239148#239148
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Why would you want to go slower than 35?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimd
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 3:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds
Hi,
Looked thru the archives and noticed that vortex generators have been
mentioned, and a number of people said they were going to experiment with
them, but I couldn't find where anyone had actually tried them out on a
piet. Seems like about 35 mph is accepted as the average stall speed. Anyone
have before/after numbers?
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239148#239148
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Jim,
I haven't installed them yet, though I have them prepped and ready to
install. My power-off stall speed with full fuselage tank (14 gal),
160 lb passenger, and 180 lb pilot, is 40 mph IAS. GPS runs indicate
that IAS is pretty close to reality, even at lower speeds. Don't know
what stall is for power-on; it's pretty dramatic with the big climb
prop that we have on it now.
Jeff
At 12:28 PM -0700 4/14/09, jimd wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>Looked thru the archives and noticed that vortex generators have
>been mentioned, and a number of people said they were going to
>experiment with them, but I couldn't find where anyone had actually
>tried them out on a piet. Seems like about 35 mph is accepted as the
>average stall speed. Anyone have before/after numbers?
>
>Jim
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239148#239148
>
>
--
_____________________________________________________________
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
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| Subject: | Hiller Aviation Museum |
Sure is a lot bigger than that Cub.
Jack Phillips
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:36 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hiller Aviation Museum
Just did a quick search of the world-wide interweb and found a couple of
shots of the Piet in question:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2984200180077698672RmVTIZ
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2355033650077698672NARHvg
Bill C.
<http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2984200180077698672RmVTIZ>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
I would assume the higher stall is due to having a cleaner than average plane,
or maybe the 35 mph number isn't accurate (unless it was gps I would wonder.)
Was curious as the safety of the plane would seem to increase a bit as the landing
speed/stall speed decreased. (Since the force is mass x velocity squared.)
In the midwest it might not actually increase safety as there are other ways to
get in trouble. I remember flying backward in a piper cub solo before and having
to take and rush a champ in to a hangar before a squall line hit, as it would
pick the plane up and dump it over. In kansas/missouri we often have 25 mile
an hour winds and they typically are not steady, but gusty, so you could fall
off one if your going to slow.
I was speculating about my plane though, it should weigh about 750 lbs, has 125
hp and two high lift wings (aerial biplane version of piet). It for sure is not
going to be a fast plane, but it could be S.T.O.L. and that was what made me
wonder if anyone had done VG's on a pietenpol yet, and what their experience
is.
Doubt I would do it only because the nice vintage biplane look would be off a bit
with a 100 or so VG's across the wings.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239158#239158
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Jack asks-
>Why would you want to go slower than 35?
Good question! Maybe it's the reverse... to help keep the flow over the wi
ngs turbulent so the lift forces won't be enough to rip the fabric away due
to that rib lacing that is "only" 2-1/2" on centers? That way the wings w
ill stay attached to the fuselage that is exceeding 175 MPH in a dive.
At that speed the brace wires on 41CC would be whistling in a key higher th
an even Tiny Tim or Mariah Carey can reach.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio=2C TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers |
I've always had a question about the "inside the prop wash" area. Does this mean
34" out from the center assuming that I'm using a 68" prop. Or does wing location
with respect to the prop come into play? What I mean is that for an airplane
like a Piet where the wing is quite high, the wing may only lie behind about
24" of the prop disk. Would this mean that I only need the tighter spaced
stitching 12" out from center? And what about pusher configurations? I ask strictly
from an FAA inspection standards point of view, not from a practical one.
Malcolm Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb@charter.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:36:38 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers
Matt, I used 2 1/2" spacing in the prop wash area per the diagram in the Polyfiber
manual, and then decided to use 2 1/2" everywhere for uniform appearance--Jim
Lagowski
----- Original Message -----
From: Woodflier@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers
OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using 2
1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that if the
spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the spacing called
for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going
to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up the stitches?
Matt Paxton
The Average US21621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
- Release Date: 04/13/09 17:56:00
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Hi Jim
Why would a cleaner airplane have a higher stall speed? Wouldn't stall speed be
related to wing loading, not drag? As far as shooting for a lower stall speed
I agree, the slower the better. It opens up more safe landing areas.
Malcolm Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:05:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds
I would assume the higher stall is due to having a cleaner than average plane,
or maybe the 35 mph number isn't accurate (unless it was gps I would wonder.)
Was curious as the safety of the plane would seem to increase a bit as the landing
speed/stall speed decreased. (Since the force is mass x velocity squared.)
In the midwest it might not actually increase safety as there are other ways to
get in trouble. I remember flying backward in a piper cub solo before and having
to take and rush a champ in to a hangar before a squall line hit, as it would
pick the plane up and dump it over. In kansas/missouri we often have 25 mile
an hour winds and they typically are not steady, but gusty, so you could fall
off one if your going to slow.
I was speculating about my plane though, it should weigh about 750 lbs, has 125
hp and two high lift wings (aerial biplane version of piet). It for sure is not
going to be a fast plane, but it could be S.T.O.L. and that was what made me
wonder if anyone had done VG's on a pietenpol yet, and what their experience
is.
Doubt I would do it only because the nice vintage biplane look would be off a bit
with a 100 or so VG's across the wings.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239158#239158
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
I agree with Jack, why would you want to stall slower than the Piet normally stalls
at ? Mine power-off stalls at 29 mph.
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Jack,
I agree; I don't want to go slower necessarily. I would like better
aileron feel at low speeds, though. Regardless of performance gains
expressed as numbers, nearly all of the "testimonials" about VG use
include comments on the increased controllability/responsiveness at
low speeds. These nearly-universal statement got me curious about the
potential effects on Piet handling. Might not be worth it, but it's
fun to experiment.
Jeff
At 3:45 PM -0400 4/14/09, Jack Phillips wrote:
>
>Why would you want to go slower than 35?
>
>Jack Phillips
>NX899JP
>
--
_____________________________________________________________
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Well, 29 mph is about the lowest I've heard and very impressive! I'm
envious. No doubt keeping the weight low during construction and
building the wing with smooth leading edge, etc. helps out a lot
there. And, if you're happy with the handling, there wouldn't appear
to be any reason to experiment with VGs. But, what if your stall
speed was 30% higher than it is now and you didn't care for it's
handling?... ;-)
>(GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
>I agree with Jack, why would you want to stall slower than the Piet
>normally stalls at ? Mine power-off stalls at 29 mph.
--
---
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: stall speeds |
Interesting points you guys are bringing up. A cleaner plane wouldn't necessarily
have a higher stall speed, as there are different types of drag, weight figures
in, and so forth. However if you look at articles on improving a plane by
reducing its drag, they indicate you can improve top speeds by about 15 mph,
improve economy a bit (on an older style plane circa 1920's-30's) and that a side
effect is usually the landing speed/stall speed going up along with the higher
cruise speed.
Why would I want a stall speed lower than 30? Same reasons given, better control
at low speed, larger safe operating speed range, possibly shorter takeoff roll,
ability to clean an obstacle quicker. (Those things the VG selling guys claim.)
Safety might be better if it meant when things went terribly wrong you were at
the slower speed, however that is doubtful, since there are so many ways to get
in trouble.
The VG's I was thinking of were the 100 for $100 inexpensive ones, and it was mostly
thoughts of S.T.O.L. performance dancing in my head, that prompted me to
ask if anyone had tried them.
Most piets in my opinion are not going to have great performance on take offs,
as their power to weight ratio isn't that great. I have flown a 65 hp champ that
got off the ground quick, but it didn't compare well with the 85 hp cub we
used to have, and that paled next to 150hp super cubs, the three planes differing
primarily in raw horse power. I would suspect the 100hp piets climb out much
better than 65hp ones and those climb better than the model A ones.
If you watch some of the clips on the landshorter website (the one with the inexpensive
vortex generators), it can make you want something that could fly like
those planes.
Losing some of my weight and flying light with no passenger would probably accomplish
more than I would ever need around here. The aerial specs have it's take
off roll as 250 feet and stall around 30knots/35mph. That is pretty short/slow
for any plane, but if it would be slower/shorter/safer and possibly more fun,
I might consider trying them out.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239267#239267
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