---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/14/09: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:52 AM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 05:30 AM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (Jack Phillips) 3. 05:37 AM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (Lagowski Morrow) 4. 10:54 AM - Hiller Aviation Museum (Oscar Zuniga) 5. 11:09 AM - Re: Hiller Aviation Museum (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 6. 11:37 AM - Re: Hiller Aviation Museum (Bill Church) 7. 12:28 PM - Re: stall speeds (jimd) 8. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jack Phillips) 9. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jeff Boatright) 10. 12:47 PM - Re: Hiller Aviation Museum (Jack Phillips) 11. 01:05 PM - Re: stall speeds (jimd) 12. 02:18 PM - stall speeds (Oscar Zuniga) 13. 03:10 PM - Re: Rib lacing on tail feathers (gliderx5@comcast.net) 14. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (gliderx5@comcast.net) 15. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 16. 04:46 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jeff Boatright) 17. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: stall speeds (Jeff Boatright) 18. 09:23 PM - Re: stall speeds (jimd) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers From: helspersew@aol.com Matt, Referring to the table in chapter 2 of FAA Circular AC43-13, it shows for slow aircraft 2 1/2" in the prop wash and 3 1/2 outside of it. You should be fine. You ultimately can do anything you want since this airplane is an "experiment". I have used 3 1/2 on my tail feathers. I just went out in the hangar and measured the tail rib stitching on my Aeroca Sedan (145 HP) and it is 3" spacing. So as you can see it varies widely.? I figure if 3" is good enough there 3 1/2" is good enough on my slow Piet. On the wing (the concern is closer to the prop) I am going to double-up and use 1 3/4". Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Woodflier@aol.com Sent: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 8:27 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using 2 1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that if the spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the spacing called for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up the stitches? ? Matt Paxton The Average US21621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:12 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers Matt, 2-1/2" is the recommended spacing in the propwash unless your VNE is greater than 175 mph. If you keep the rib-lacing as done, you will have to limit your Piet to speeds less than 175. It is conceivable that the tail could see such speeds, after the wings have been shed in a terminal velocity dive. Incidentally, I used the 2-1/2" spacing on my entire wing, just to make it easier. It only added a couple of extra stitches per rib. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodflier@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using 2 1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that if the spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the spacing called for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up the stitches? Matt Paxton _____ The Average US21621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fd efault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:32 AM PST US From: "Lagowski Morrow" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers Matt, I used 2 1/2" spacing in the prop wash area per the diagram in the Polyfiber manual, and then decided to use 2 1/2" everywhere for uniform appearance--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: Woodflier@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using 2 1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that if the spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the spacing called for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up the stitches? Matt Paxton ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- The Average US21621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fp m%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 04/13/09 17:56:00 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:42 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hiller Aviation Museum G'day=2C low 'n' slow fliers=3B A friend here at work just came back from a trip to the San Francisco bay a rea and he spoke very highly of the Hiller Aviation Museum at the San Carlo s Airport. He said that there is a superb example of a single-piece wing =2C Ford "A"-powered Air Camper in the museum. Has anyone seen this and do es anyone know who built it? Supposedly a 1960s era built airplane. Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:36 AM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hiller Aviation Museum But Oscar, didn't he notice the very cool Long-ez up on the roof? =) (you can see it with google earth) I used to fly out of there with a friend, I lived on a yacht in a marina about half a mile south of there and birds in the pattern would fly over. See y'all at SNF next week, find us in the Alternative Engines tent. We were going to bring a new Piet engine mount but have a major project that has to be finished first. ...Chrissi & Randi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details In a message dated 4/14/2009 12:55:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, taildrags@hotmail.com writes: G'day, low 'n' slow fliers; A friend here at work just came back from a trip to the San Francisco bay area and he spoke very highly of the Hiller Aviation Museum at the San Carlos Airport. He said that there is a superb example of a single-piece wing, Ford "A"-powered Air Camper in the museum. Has anyone seen this and does anyone know who built it? Supposedly a 1960s era built airplane. Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: _taildrags@hotmail.com_ (mailto:taildrags@hotmail.com) website at http://www.flysquirrel.net (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hiller Aviation Museum From: "Bill Church" Just did a quick search of the world-wide interweb and found a couple of shots of the Piet in question: http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2984200180077698672RmVTIZ http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2355033650077698672NARHvg Bill C. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds From: "jimd" Hi, Looked thru the archives and noticed that vortex generators have been mentioned, and a number of people said they were going to experiment with them, but I couldn't find where anyone had actually tried them out on a piet. Seems like about 35 mph is accepted as the average stall speed. Anyone have before/after numbers? Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239148#239148 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:58 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds Why would you want to go slower than 35? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimd Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds Hi, Looked thru the archives and noticed that vortex generators have been mentioned, and a number of people said they were going to experiment with them, but I couldn't find where anyone had actually tried them out on a piet. Seems like about 35 mph is accepted as the average stall speed. Anyone have before/after numbers? Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239148#239148 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:58 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds Jim, I haven't installed them yet, though I have them prepped and ready to install. My power-off stall speed with full fuselage tank (14 gal), 160 lb passenger, and 180 lb pilot, is 40 mph IAS. GPS runs indicate that IAS is pretty close to reality, even at lower speeds. Don't know what stall is for power-on; it's pretty dramatic with the big climb prop that we have on it now. Jeff At 12:28 PM -0700 4/14/09, jimd wrote: > >Hi, > >Looked thru the archives and noticed that vortex generators have >been mentioned, and a number of people said they were going to >experiment with them, but I couldn't find where anyone had actually >tried them out on a piet. Seems like about 35 mph is accepted as the >average stall speed. Anyone have before/after numbers? > >Jim > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239148#239148 > > -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:00 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hiller Aviation Museum Sure is a lot bigger than that Cub. Jack Phillips _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hiller Aviation Museum Just did a quick search of the world-wide interweb and found a couple of shots of the Piet in question: http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2984200180077698672RmVTIZ http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2355033650077698672NARHvg Bill C. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:51 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds From: "jimd" I would assume the higher stall is due to having a cleaner than average plane, or maybe the 35 mph number isn't accurate (unless it was gps I would wonder.) Was curious as the safety of the plane would seem to increase a bit as the landing speed/stall speed decreased. (Since the force is mass x velocity squared.) In the midwest it might not actually increase safety as there are other ways to get in trouble. I remember flying backward in a piper cub solo before and having to take and rush a champ in to a hangar before a squall line hit, as it would pick the plane up and dump it over. In kansas/missouri we often have 25 mile an hour winds and they typically are not steady, but gusty, so you could fall off one if your going to slow. I was speculating about my plane though, it should weigh about 750 lbs, has 125 hp and two high lift wings (aerial biplane version of piet). It for sure is not going to be a fast plane, but it could be S.T.O.L. and that was what made me wonder if anyone had done VG's on a pietenpol yet, and what their experience is. Doubt I would do it only because the nice vintage biplane look would be off a bit with a 100 or so VG's across the wings. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239158#239158 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:03 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: stall speeds Jack asks- >Why would you want to go slower than 35? Good question! Maybe it's the reverse... to help keep the flow over the wi ngs turbulent so the lift forces won't be enough to rip the fabric away due to that rib lacing that is "only" 2-1/2" on centers? That way the wings w ill stay attached to the fuselage that is exceeding 175 MPH in a dive. At that speed the brace wires on 41CC would be whistling in a key higher th an even Tiny Tim or Mariah Carey can reach. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:53 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers I've always had a question about the "inside the prop wash" area. Does this mean 34" out from the center assuming that I'm using a 68" prop. Or does wing location with respect to the prop come into play? What I mean is that for an airplane like a Piet where the wing is quite high, the wing may only lie behind about 24" of the prop disk. Would this mean that I only need the tighter spaced stitching 12" out from center? And what about pusher configurations? I ask strictly from an FAA inspection standards point of view, not from a practical one. Malcolm Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lagowski Morrow" Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:36:38 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers Matt, I used 2 1/2" spacing in the prop wash area per the diagram in the Polyfiber manual, and then decided to use 2 1/2" everywhere for uniform appearance--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: Woodflier@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib lacing on tail feathers OK, I've covered and rib stitched my elevators, rudder and stabilizer, using 2 1/2 inch spacing for the stitched. Now I see in the Polyfiber manual that if the spacing for tailfeathers isn't specified, I should use half the spacing called for in propwash areas. What have other people used? Is 2 1/2 inches going to be close enough or should I remove the tapes and double up the stitches? Matt Paxton The Average US21621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - Release Date: 04/13/09 17:56:00 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:49 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds Hi Jim Why would a cleaner airplane have a higher stall speed? Wouldn't stall speed be related to wing loading, not drag? As far as shooting for a lower stall speed I agree, the slower the better. It opens up more safe landing areas. Malcolm Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:05:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds I would assume the higher stall is due to having a cleaner than average plane, or maybe the 35 mph number isn't accurate (unless it was gps I would wonder.) Was curious as the safety of the plane would seem to increase a bit as the landing speed/stall speed decreased. (Since the force is mass x velocity squared.) In the midwest it might not actually increase safety as there are other ways to get in trouble. I remember flying backward in a piper cub solo before and having to take and rush a champ in to a hangar before a squall line hit, as it would pick the plane up and dump it over. In kansas/missouri we often have 25 mile an hour winds and they typically are not steady, but gusty, so you could fall off one if your going to slow. I was speculating about my plane though, it should weigh about 750 lbs, has 125 hp and two high lift wings (aerial biplane version of piet). It for sure is not going to be a fast plane, but it could be S.T.O.L. and that was what made me wonder if anyone had done VG's on a pietenpol yet, and what their experience is. Doubt I would do it only because the nice vintage biplane look would be off a bit with a 100 or so VG's across the wings. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239158#239158 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:57 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds I agree with Jack, why would you want to stall slower than the Piet normally stalls at ? Mine power-off stalls at 29 mph. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:52 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds Jack, I agree; I don't want to go slower necessarily. I would like better aileron feel at low speeds, though. Regardless of performance gains expressed as numbers, nearly all of the "testimonials" about VG use include comments on the increased controllability/responsiveness at low speeds. These nearly-universal statement got me curious about the potential effects on Piet handling. Might not be worth it, but it's fun to experiment. Jeff At 3:45 PM -0400 4/14/09, Jack Phillips wrote: > >Why would you want to go slower than 35? > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP > -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:23 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds Well, 29 mph is about the lowest I've heard and very impressive! I'm envious. No doubt keeping the weight low during construction and building the wing with smooth leading edge, etc. helps out a lot there. And, if you're happy with the handling, there wouldn't appear to be any reason to experiment with VGs. But, what if your stall speed was 30% higher than it is now and you didn't care for it's handling?... ;-) >(GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" > >I agree with Jack, why would you want to stall slower than the Piet >normally stalls at ? Mine power-off stalls at 29 mph. -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:41 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: stall speeds From: "jimd" Interesting points you guys are bringing up. A cleaner plane wouldn't necessarily have a higher stall speed, as there are different types of drag, weight figures in, and so forth. However if you look at articles on improving a plane by reducing its drag, they indicate you can improve top speeds by about 15 mph, improve economy a bit (on an older style plane circa 1920's-30's) and that a side effect is usually the landing speed/stall speed going up along with the higher cruise speed. Why would I want a stall speed lower than 30? Same reasons given, better control at low speed, larger safe operating speed range, possibly shorter takeoff roll, ability to clean an obstacle quicker. (Those things the VG selling guys claim.) Safety might be better if it meant when things went terribly wrong you were at the slower speed, however that is doubtful, since there are so many ways to get in trouble. The VG's I was thinking of were the 100 for $100 inexpensive ones, and it was mostly thoughts of S.T.O.L. performance dancing in my head, that prompted me to ask if anyone had tried them. Most piets in my opinion are not going to have great performance on take offs, as their power to weight ratio isn't that great. I have flown a 65 hp champ that got off the ground quick, but it didn't compare well with the 85 hp cub we used to have, and that paled next to 150hp super cubs, the three planes differing primarily in raw horse power. I would suspect the 100hp piets climb out much better than 65hp ones and those climb better than the model A ones. If you watch some of the clips on the landshorter website (the one with the inexpensive vortex generators), it can make you want something that could fly like those planes. Losing some of my weight and flying light with no passenger would probably accomplish more than I would ever need around here. The aerial specs have it's take off roll as 250 feet and stall around 30knots/35mph. That is pretty short/slow for any plane, but if it would be slower/shorter/safer and possibly more fun, I might consider trying them out. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239267#239267 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.