---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/21/09: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:22 AM - Epoxy chart (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 05:33 AM - Re: Materials List (Michael Perez) 3. 05:33 AM - mountain piet (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Materials List (Glenn Thomas) 5. 06:34 AM - Re: Epoxy chart (Jim Markle) 6. 06:53 AM - Epoxy chart (helspersew@aol.com) 7. 08:28 AM - Re: Materials List (TriScout) 8. 08:58 AM - Re: Materials List (K5YAC) 9. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Materials List (Richard Schreiber) 10. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: Materials List (Dave Abramson) 11. 10:32 AM - Re: Materials List (K5YAC) 12. 10:37 AM - T88 hint......Re: Materials List (K5YAC) 13. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: Materials List (Dave Abramson) 14. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: Materials List (Gary Boothe) 15. 12:49 PM - T-88 (walt) 16. 01:05 PM - Re: T-88 (Kirk Huizenga) 17. 01:22 PM - Re: T-88 (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 18. 01:51 PM - Re: T-88 (walt) 19. 02:49 PM - Re: T-88 (Don Emch) 20. 03:29 PM - Re: Re: T-88 (walt) 21. 03:41 PM - Re: Materials List (TriScout) 22. 03:46 PM - Re: T-88 (Bill Princell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:03 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Epoxy chart From: helspersew@aol.com Jim, Any chance you could scan and post a good copy of your chart? I wish I had had that when I was using a lot of glue. I am sure I wasted much in my estimation method. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:04 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Materials List Hello Larry and welcome. - Besides the material for the plane itself, you need material to build a rib jig, a pre-bending jig and a cap strip soaker. There are many ways to buil d these items and to save space here, I have emailed you off list. If I may assist further, email me directly. - Welcome to the show! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:06 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: mountain piet If my memory serves me correctly, Mountain Piets Subaru engine quit on the way home from Brodhead. John managed a miraculous emergency landing, in a yard I think. I believe the engine quit because of the control nodule (the Brain). There is an automatic shut off function which turns your car off if it senses certain problems which might damage the motor. I don't remember what set it off, but this function had not been disarmed and it sensed something it didn't like and turned off the motor. It was really a shame, I've rarely seen craftsmanship like on that plane. This is generally what we all heard happend from John, though the details might be a bit off due to my memory. Great motor, great plane, great pilot, and a very great God... Douwe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List From: "Glenn Thomas" Hi Larry, The ribs are a good place to be starting. ...lots of little pieces (I think I had to make 960 gussets) with about 45 total pieces in each rib. Some of us didn't use any nails, which Tony Bingelis also notes is acceptable in his book. I found that while the jig took a little longer to make, making ribs with clamps meant instead of using several nails in each of the 30 gussets per rib I just lifted, turned and dropped the clamp and moved on to the next gusset. It was pretty simple to make and I used that system on my empennage too, although the time-savings paid off more in the rib building since you're making quite a few of the same part. Used 1/4" carriage bolts, wingnuts and paint sticks. The clamps were easy to uproot and reuse to make other parts as well. There are a few of this who have used a variation of this method. Also, no nails to remove when done. Here's a few pictures to give you some more ideas. http://www.flyingwood.com/index.asp?page=21&filter=0 http://www.flyingwood.com/index.asp?page=4&filter=0 Have fun, this is a fantastic project and great community! -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240437#240437 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:57 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Epoxy chart --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Epoxy chart From: helspersew@aol.com Jim, Those word docs are great. Thanks from me, and I am sure a bunch of others on this list. No need for scanning. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List From: "TriScout" Thanks guys.. This is excellent info! Fast replies as well. Thanks to all for taking the time to reply. I did build 77 ribs for a full scale Fokker Dr1 a few years back. I still have some plywood sheets/finnish wood from Aircraft Spruce in storage. I'll have to disect my shed and take inventory today. I have a bag of brass rib nails as well.. little quarter inchers I believe, but I'll still have some ordering to do, and maybe convert that Fokker Jig into a Piet Jig. I imagine it'll take a bit of time to get the jig tweaked to work just right before cranking them out... Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240477#240477 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:09 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List From: "K5YAC" Absolutely right Glenn, even though I considered the method you mention (no nails), I totally forgot to mention it as a possibility. I don't want to hijack the thread, but this may help Larry consider his options too... how many nail guys actually pull them when the glue is set? I'm considering leaving mine in. Is their any major disadvantage except the few ounces of weight? Do they come loose and bounce around in the wing or something? Glenn Thomas wrote: > Some of us didn't use any nails, which Tony Bingelis also notes is acceptable in his book. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240478#240478 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:29 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List why not just use 1/4 inch staples and a light weight staple gun. Its fast and easy. The staples can then be easily pulled out with a small end nipper type pliers. Thats the way I did it. I jigged up one rib and glued and stapled one side. Pulled it from the form and added the gussets on the other side. I then pulled the staples from the rib that was glued up the day before. It usually took me less than an hour to glue up a complete rib and remove the staples from another. On my best day I think I did four ribs one Saturday afternoon. Rick Schreiber > [Original Message] > From: K5YAC > To: > Date: 4/21/2009 11:01:48 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List > > > Absolutely right Glenn, even though I considered the method you mention (no nails), I totally forgot to mention it as a possibility. > > I don't want to hijack the thread, but this may help Larry consider his options too... how many nail guys actually pull them when the glue is set? I'm considering leaving mine in. Is their any major disadvantage except the few ounces of weight? Do they come loose and bounce around in the wing or something? > > > Glenn Thomas wrote: > > Some of us didn't use any nails, which Tony Bingelis also notes is acceptable in his book. > > > -------- > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240478#240478 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:47 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List I left my nails in.... too much hassle to pull out, plus will damage wood. Bought the "glue covered nails" from AC spruce. Glue covered nails are not meant to be removed.... My 2 cents..... Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List Absolutely right Glenn, even though I considered the method you mention (no nails), I totally forgot to mention it as a possibility. I don't want to hijack the thread, but this may help Larry consider his options too... how many nail guys actually pull them when the glue is set? I'm considering leaving mine in. Is their any major disadvantage except the few ounces of weight? Do they come loose and bounce around in the wing or something? Glenn Thomas wrote: > Some of us didn't use any nails, which Tony Bingelis also notes is acceptable in his book. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240478#240478 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List From: "K5YAC" I'm using the glue covered nails too, so I guess I'll leave them in as well. Great idea on the staples Rick. davea(at)symbolicdisplays wrote: > I left my nails in.... too much hassle to pull out, plus will damage wood. > > Bought the "glue covered nails" from AC spruce. > > Glue covered nails are not meant to be removed.... > > My 2 cents..... > > Dave > > > > -- -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240505#240505 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: T88 hint......Re: Materials List From: "K5YAC" Awesome! I have a digital scale for reloading that will work great for this method. Thanks for the info Jim! -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240506#240506 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:33 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List What happened to the FOKKER????? Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of TriScout Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List Thanks guys.. This is excellent info! Fast replies as well. Thanks to all for taking the time to reply. I did build 77 ribs for a full scale Fokker Dr1 a few years back. I still have some plywood sheets/finnish wood from Aircraft Spruce in storage. I'll have to disect my shed and take inventory today. I have a bag of brass rib nails as well.. little quarter inchers I believe, but I'll still have some ordering to do, and maybe convert that Fokker Jig into a Piet Jig. I imagine it'll take a bit of time to get the jig tweaked to work just right before cranking them out... Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240477#240477 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:51 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List I tink dat Fokker vas a Messerschmidt. (thanks for walking into it) Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List What happened to the FOKKER????? Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of TriScout Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List Thanks guys.. This is excellent info! Fast replies as well. Thanks to all for taking the time to reply. I did build 77 ribs for a full scale Fokker Dr1 a few years back. I still have some plywood sheets/finnish wood from Aircraft Spruce in storage. I'll have to disect my shed and take inventory today. I have a bag of brass rib nails as well.. little quarter inchers I believe, but I'll still have some ordering to do, and maybe convert that Fokker Jig into a Piet Jig. I imagine it'll take a bit of time to get the jig tweaked to work just right before cranking them out... Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240477#240477 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:26 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88 Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off on a tangent with this. Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it. When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone showed a pic of. That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec. When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer from the cabinet that was a throwaway. Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths. Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't stretch the beads or pile them up. T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = Good Go to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in your teeth and pull it and split it long ways. Now you have 2 applicators. Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more. Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse side. If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle. When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel. After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood chisel by hand. Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood! Check the spec walt evans NX140DL ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:04 PM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 You may be right Walt. For what it is worth, it is equal amounts by volume, but if you do weigh it is 100/83 Resin to Hardener (at least it was when I called System Three a number of years ago) Just an FYI for us with scales that sometimes mix up bigger batches and like spreadsheets Kirk On Apr 21, 2009, at 2:47 PM, walt wrote: > Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off > on a tangent with this. > Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it. > When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone > showed a pic of. > That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec. > When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer > from the cabinet that was a throwaway. > Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths. > Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't > stretch the beads or pile them up. > T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = > Good > Go to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in > your teeth and pull it and split it long ways. > Now you have 2 applicators. > Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more. > > Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse > side. > > If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to > what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle. > > When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel. > After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood > chisel by hand. > > Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood! > Check the spec > > walt evans > NX140DL > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:47 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 you guys are killing me here with all that measuring I count rather than scale. I use west systems epoxy from west marine great stuff and the mix is simple one pump of resin and one pump of hardner into my little black plastic Quiznos cup, get the wooded coffee stirrer from the local 7-11 or equivalent convenience store and get out the flux brush for some serious gluing. I make up a batch and use it all up at a couple of different sites so none of it goes to waste. Now that's gluin, life is good! John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter421NO62) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:25 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 Kirk, Don't get me wrong. You are absolutly right in your figuring. On my first project, I got all the cups and things. But then realized,,,you don't need that much! So much is wasted in a cup. That's way I wrote what I wrote walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirk Huizenga To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 You may be right Walt. For what it is worth, it is equal amounts by volume, but if you do weigh it is 100/83 Resin to Hardener (at least it was when I called System Three a number of years ago) Just an FYI for us with scales that sometimes mix up bigger batches and like spreadsheets Kirk On Apr 21, 2009, at 2:47 PM, walt wrote: Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off on a tangent with this. Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it. When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone showed a pic of. That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec. When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer from the cabinet that was a throwaway. Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths. Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't stretch the beads or pile them up. T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = Good Go to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in your teeth and pull it and split it long ways. Now you have 2 applicators. Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more. Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse side. If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle. When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel. After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood chisel by hand. Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood! Check the spec walt evans NX140DL href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88 From: "Don Emch" Walt, I did exactly as you (laying 2 beads side by side) and never had a problem with any joints on my plane nor with any of the sample test pieces that I made to destroy. Always tore the wood and not the glue. Good stuff. Don Emch NX899DE Trusting T-88 for a couple hundred hours now.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240539#240539 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:17 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88 Don, Good for you. I learned from a Fisher builder, how to only mix what you needed. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88 > > Walt, > > I did exactly as you (laying 2 beads side by side) and never had a problem > with any joints on my plane nor with any of the sample test pieces that I > made to destroy. Always tore the wood and not the glue. Good stuff. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > Trusting T-88 for a couple hundred hours now.... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240539#240539 > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Materials List From: "TriScout" Don't have the plans yet and don't know how it translates to fokker ribs, but you'd just leave the nails in on the ones I built. Will "attempt to attach" photos.. if you can see nails in there.. Any thoughts on this for the piet? What happened to the Fokker someone axed..er..asked? Too big a project and aint as fun/cheap as a Piet. Fokkers belong at Rhinebeck. A piet seems to be more realistic as a solo project and about a quarter or third the cost of a Tripe. You should really have a team or couple folk building a full scale war replica, (my humble opinion) as well as a few ground folk to help you fly it. The Piet is more like the Champ I used to have. One can fly it on his/her own. Plus you can give your kids, and later, grandkids a ride. I still have those ribs as garage wall decor.. Atleast I have some practice with many a rib.. Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240545#240545 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2_182.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/3_581.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_178.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 From: Bill Princell For what it's worth - The best way I've found is to use the paper ketchup cups from a food restaurant. Take a flat tongue suppressor and make three marks across the width at 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" at one end using a ball point pen. When you're ready to measure, lay the flat side of the tongue suppressor against the inside of the cup and transfer one of calibration marks to the inside of the cup with a pen or pencil. Do the same to a second cup. Pour epoxy to your line mark in one cup and then hardener to the line mark in the second cup. Pour the contents of the epoxy cup into the cup with the hardener and mix thoroughly. Throw both cups away when your finished. I found that a 1/4" in each cup when mixed,(that's a 1/2" mixed T-88), usually gives me enough to glue all of the gussets on one side of a wing rib, before the it starts to thicken and cure out. The plastic coffee stir sticks can be used also. Cut them in half and use the lower flat end to stir and then apply the epoxy. Bill Princell - Noblesville, IN Corvair Powered/GN1 Rebuild Project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.