Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:35 AM - Re: Aileron response & stick movement (Jack Phillips)
2. 05:52 AM - control cable concerns (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 05:55 AM - steel fuse and So Cal airports (Douwe Blumberg)
4. 02:07 PM - Pfeifer Sport plans (Darrel Jones)
5. 03:04 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Ray Krause)
6. 03:38 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Darrel Jones)
7. 04:18 PM - $4 Hamburgers (Gary Boothe)
8. 04:49 PM - Re: $4 Hamburgers (Darrel Jones)
9. 08:35 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Paul N. Peckham)
10. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (ALAN LYSCARS)
11. 08:54 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Ray Krause)
12. 09:02 PM - Re: $4 Hamburgers (Ray Krause)
13. 10:52 PM - Re: Aileron response & stick movement (Mike Tunnicliffe)
Message 1
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Subject: | Aileron response & stick movement |
Steve,
I agree that roll response is not the strong suit of this design, but I
don't know that making the ailerons move faster will help much. Most
airplanes achieve their max roll rate at some point before max aileron
deflection, but it would certainly help a little because you could get the
aileron response in a little faster.
The Pietenpol has about the same roll rate as other planes of that era, such
as the Piper J-3 Cub, the Fairchild 22 (and it has full span ailerons!) or
the Aeronca L-3. The Aeronca Champ has a significantly higher roll rate.
Faster roll rates can be achieved by clipping the wings, but I don't think
you'd be happy with the climb rate of a clipped-wing Piet.
I've flown mine in gusty 25 knot winds, with a nearly direct crosswind. It's
a challenge, but can be done - you've just got to be ready to give quick,
full deflection responses.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ruse
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 11:39 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement
Has anyone shortened the aileron horns from stock length in order to get a
faster roll response with smaller stick inputs? After flying my plane 300+
hours, there have been times where I wished I had more aileron. Typically
in gusty, high wind conditions during turns. Especially when turning into
the wind (like base to final), I've experienced gusts that tend to pull the
low wing further down...not a comfortable situation when you are already
low. Max aileron input in the opposite direction gives a response that is
delayed and much slower than I would like. I'm running out of room for the
stick, as it hits my leg. There is more aileron deflection left before I
hit the stop, but in my typical flying position my leg is in the way (I'm
about 6'0", BTW, with a stock Piet cockpit). If I shift to one side and
lift my leg I can get more aileron deflection, so I'm not talking about
increasing total deflection, just increasing the response rate.
It seems that shortening the aileron horns 20% to 30% would give me more
deflection for the same stick movement. What are the potential downsides
that I'm not considering? Has anyone done this? I'm interested in any
thoughts or opinions on the subject.
Thanks,
Steve Ruse
Norman, OK
Message 2
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Subject: | control cable concerns |
The guy who I bought my project from fabricated some of the control cable
assemblies and now that I'm hooking things up, I have a couple concerns.
In the rudder bar end (wood) is a pivoting strap with a hole in the back for
the rudder and one in the front for the front pedals.
He's attached the rudder cables to this pivoting strap with just a thimble,
no shackle. Now since the strap pivots, there isn't really movement in
there, but it concerns me, and doesn't seem kosher based on Bingeles's book
(he doesn't discuss this, just doesn't show it).
He did the same thing on the elevator cable in the middle of the stick, no
shackle, just a thimble to a plate.
Is this acceptable or should I tear it all out and refabricate? Hate doing
that since everything is done, but if it's unsafe, there is no question.
If I do need to refabricate, could I try cutting through the nicopress
without damaging the cable?
Douwe
Message 3
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Subject: | steel fuse and So Cal airports |
Mike,
Welcome to the group!
Having lived 38 years in So Cal, I hear your plight re an airport. Don't
know if you're much of a driver, but there are two affordable airports in
central Ca, about 3.5 hrs north. Ck out Santa Maria prices and little
Oceano airport. I know it's far, but if your schedule allows weekends or
something it might be an option.
Another thought would be with your weather, it would probably be realistic
to bring it to the airport and tie it down for a couple of weeks or months
of flying, fabricate some extensive wing and fuse UV and dust covers and
then bring it home again. (brainstorming here)
If I was to build over again, I'd use the steel fuse mainly because it saves
an appreciable amount of weight, plus being a welder, it would go together
in a snap.
good luck!
D
Message 4
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Subject: | Pfeifer Sport plans |
I just saw the article in the latest Sport Aviation about the group
build of six steel-tube fuselage Pietenpols and thought that maybe some
of the group would like to see plans for another steel-tube Pietenpol
variant.
My airplane is the Pfeifer Sport, build by Joe Pfeifer in 1975. He was a
friend of Bernie's back in the good old days and built a steel-tube
version of the Piet in 1930 and also powered it with a Model A engine.
He built the Corvair powered version I own in 1975 after Bernie had
started using Corvairs in his Piets.
Joe also built World War I replicas, with his Sopwith Pup and Nieuport
17, both with Le Rhone rotaries, displayed at the Flying Lady Restaurant
in Morgan Hill in the south San Francisco Bay area for many years.
The fellow who drew up the blueprints for Joe was Ivan Dunlop, who had
built a beautiful Model B powered Piet that was also displayed at the
Flying Lady and is now rebuilt and flying from the South County airport
museum. Ivan visited me here in Sonoma and got his first ride in the
Pfeifer. Although he had drawn up the plans, he never got a ride when
Joe owned the airplane.
Since my copy of the plans were aging, I had them scanned and saved as
.pdf files to preserve them. I had contacted Ivan's widow to try to find
the original vellums, but could never track them down, so I think these
are the only plans still in existence.
If anyone would like a copy of the plans on disc let me know. I'll also
scan the original 1976 Sport Aviation article written by Bill Turner and
make that available. $5 ought to cover the cost of mailing and the disc.
I hope to make it back to Brodhead again this year. It will be a while
before I can get the Sport back there since I'm rebuilding the engine
when I can steal time from work and other obligations.
Darrel Jones
Pfeifer Sport N154JP
Sonoma, CA
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Pfeifer Sport plans |
Darrel,
I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than generous.
How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent article in the
Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those planes at Osh this year.
Ray Krause
843 Jay Street
Colusa, CA 95932
Raykruase@frontiernet.net.
Thanks,
Ray Krause
N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrel Jones" <wd6bor@vom.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 2:06 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans
>
> I just saw the article in the latest Sport Aviation about the group build
> of six steel-tube fuselage Pietenpols and thought that maybe some of the
> group would like to see plans for another steel-tube Pietenpol variant.
>
> My airplane is the Pfeifer Sport, build by Joe Pfeifer in 1975. He was a
> friend of Bernie's back in the good old days and built a steel-tube
> version of the Piet in 1930 and also powered it with a Model A engine. He
> built the Corvair powered version I own in 1975 after Bernie had started
> using Corvairs in his Piets.
>
> Joe also built World War I replicas, with his Sopwith Pup and Nieuport 17,
> both with Le Rhone rotaries, displayed at the Flying Lady Restaurant in
> Morgan Hill in the south San Francisco Bay area for many years.
>
> The fellow who drew up the blueprints for Joe was Ivan Dunlop, who had
> built a beautiful Model B powered Piet that was also displayed at the
> Flying Lady and is now rebuilt and flying from the South County airport
> museum. Ivan visited me here in Sonoma and got his first ride in the
> Pfeifer. Although he had drawn up the plans, he never got a ride when Joe
> owned the airplane.
>
> Since my copy of the plans were aging, I had them scanned and saved as
> .pdf files to preserve them. I had contacted Ivan's widow to try to find
> the original vellums, but could never track them down, so I think these
> are the only plans still in existence.
>
> If anyone would like a copy of the plans on disc let me know. I'll also
> scan the original 1976 Sport Aviation article written by Bill Turner and
> make that available. $5 ought to cover the cost of mailing and the disc.
>
> I hope to make it back to Brodhead again this year. It will be a while
> before I can get the Sport back there since I'm rebuilding the engine when
> I can steal time from work and other obligations.
>
> Darrel Jones
> Pfeifer Sport N154JP
> Sonoma, CA
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Pfeifer Sport plans |
Ray,
Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope
and get it in the mail tomorrow.
If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to
Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also
have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field.
Darrel
Ray Krause wrote:
> <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
>
> Darrel,
>
> I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than
> generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent
> article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those
> planes at Osh this year.
>
> Ray Krause
> 843 Jay Street
> Colusa, CA 95932
> Raykruase@frontiernet.net.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Krause
>
> N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood
> prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs.
>
Message 7
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$4 HAMBURGERS!! THAT ALMOST BEATS JACK'S FREE NIGHT IN A B&B!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear
(13 ribs down.)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrel Jones
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans
Ray,
Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope
and get it in the mail tomorrow.
If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to
Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also
have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field.
Darrel
Ray Krause wrote:
> <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
>
> Darrel,
>
> I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than
> generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent
> article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those
> planes at Osh this year.
>
> Ray Krause
> 843 Jay Street
> Colusa, CA 95932
> Raykruase@frontiernet.net.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Krause
>
> N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood
> prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs.
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: $4 Hamburgers |
Gary,
Not only that, but we have a shower and restroom so you can camp on the
field before flying home in your Piet. If you're coming from anything
over two hundred miles away, you should plan on making it an
overnighter, since that would count as a long cross country.
If the left coast Pieters would like to mplan a fly-in to Sonoma Skypark
I would be happy to arrange meals and some hangar floor space for
sleeping. We have an EAA clubhouse with a big screen TV and lots of
flying movies on disc, including Waldo Pepper.
We're having the Taylorcraft fly-in here this month and have hosted
Travelairs and Waco fly-ins before. A bonus is that we can carpool over
the Schellville, which is only two miles away, and see Chris Prevost's
newly restored P-40N and Frank Schelling's award winning Jenny JN-4H, as
well as a few more goodies. If you want a ride in the P-40, it's only
$1600. He does have Stearman and AT-6 rides for considerably less.
Let me know and we can pick a date that doesn't conflict with Brodhead
and Oshkosh. I'll contact Walt to make sure he can come out and show his
Pietenpol.
Darrel
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> $4 HAMBURGERS!! THAT ALMOST BEATS JACK'S FREE NIGHT IN A B&B!!
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear
> (13 ribs down.)
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrel Jones
> Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:30 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans
>
>
> Ray,
>
> Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope
> and get it in the mail tomorrow.
>
> If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to
> Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also
> have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field.
>
> Darrel
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Pfeifer Sport plans |
Darrel,
I also would love to get a set of the plans for the Pfeifer Sport. I remember
reading that article by Bill Turner years ago. It always made me laugh. It's
funny how some homebuilts became famous, while others sank into obscurity. The
Pfeifer Sport was apparently the latter which is too bad since it was such
an interesting historical type aircraft with a direct link to the Pietenpol.
Is yours the only flying example or are there other ones out there? Thank you
for your generous offer.
Here's my address:
Paul N. Peckham
23747 Country Lane
Richland Center, WI 53581
Thanks again.
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242585#242585
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Pfeifer Sport plans |
Darrel,
Please include me on your list of "plans wanters."
Thanks very much for your effort!
Al Lyscars
723 Pine St.
Manchester, NH 03104
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9@countryspeed.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 11:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pfeifer Sport plans
> <peckham9@countryspeed.com>
>
> Darrel,
>
> I also would love to get a set of the plans for the Pfeifer Sport.
snipped
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Pfeifer Sport plans |
Darrel,
I have looked at Sonoma Skypark as a possible destination, sounds like a lot
of fun. Just flew to Lakeport, Ukiah and Little River Monday, great flight.
I will get the info on 0Q9 right away. As soon as the weather is better, I
will be there. $4.00 hamburgers sound great! Will send the $ as soon as
your package arrives.
Ray Krause
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrel Jones" <wd6bor@vom.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans
>
> Ray,
>
> Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope and
> get it in the mail tomorrow.
>
> If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to
> Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also
> have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field.
>
> Darrel
>
> Ray Krause wrote:
>> <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
>>
>> Darrel,
>>
>> I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than
>> generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent
>> article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those planes
>> at Osh this year.
>>
>> Ray Krause
>> 843 Jay Street
>> Colusa, CA 95932
>> Raykruase@frontiernet.net.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ray Krause
>>
>> N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
>> Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs.
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: $4 Hamburgers |
Darrel,
Sounds like a great place for a Sonex fly-in. Don't think we would need to
stay over night, we go a little faster than the Piets.... but we don't see
nearly as much! Now that I have the Sonex for getting places faster, I am
gathering all the "stuff" for the Piet. I have to get up to see Gary
sometime but am afraid I would get too inspired.
Ray Krause
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrel Jones" <wd6bor@vom.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: $4 Hamburgers
>
> Gary,
>
> Not only that, but we have a shower and restroom so you can camp on the
> field before flying home in your Piet. If you're coming from anything over
> two hundred miles away, you should plan on making it an overnighter, since
> that would count as a long cross country.
>
> If the left coast Pieters would like to mplan a fly-in to Sonoma Skypark I
> would be happy to arrange meals and some hangar floor space for sleeping.
> We have an EAA clubhouse with a big screen TV and lots of flying movies on
> disc, including Waldo Pepper.
>
> We're having the Taylorcraft fly-in here this month and have hosted
> Travelairs and Waco fly-ins before. A bonus is that we can carpool over
> the Schellville, which is only two miles away, and see Chris Prevost's
> newly restored P-40N and Frank Schelling's award winning Jenny JN-4H, as
> well as a few more goodies. If you want a ride in the P-40, it's only
> $1600. He does have Stearman and AT-6 rides for considerably less.
>
> Let me know and we can pick a date that doesn't conflict with Brodhead and
> Oshkosh. I'll contact Walt to make sure he can come out and show his
> Pietenpol.
>
> Darrel
>
> Gary Boothe wrote:
>> <gboothe5@comcast.net>
>>
>> $4 HAMBURGERS!! THAT ALMOST BEATS JACK'S FREE NIGHT IN A B&B!!
>>
>> Gary Boothe
>> Cool, Ca.
>> Pietenpol
>> WW Corvair Conversion
>> Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear
>> (13 ribs down.)
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrel
>> Jones
>> Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:30 PM
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans
>>
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope and
>> get it in the mail tomorrow.
>>
>> If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to
>> Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also
>> have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field.
>>
>> Darrel
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Aileron response & stick movement |
Hi Steve, it is a bad idea to increase the deflection of control
surfaces as it may subject the wing to greater torsional forces than it
was designed to cope with, also the control surfaces can stall which can
lead to a reversed control effect, definitely not what you want to
happen.
Regards Mike T.
Just the assembly of the wing to go, and that will be my timber work
done.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Ruse
To: Pietenpol List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement
Has anyone shortened the aileron horns from stock length in order to
get a faster roll response with smaller stick inputs? After flying my
plane 300+ hours, there have been times where I wished I had more
aileron. Typically in gusty, high wind conditions during turns.
Especially when turning into the wind (like base to final), I've
experienced gusts that tend to pull the low wing further down...not a
comfortable situation when you are already low. Max aileron input in
the opposite direction gives a response that is delayed and much slower
than I would like. I'm running out of room for the stick, as it hits my
leg. There is more aileron deflection left before I hit the stop, but
in my typical flying position my leg is in the way (I'm about 6'0", BTW,
with a stock Piet cockpit). If I shift to one side and lift my leg I
can get more aileron deflection, so I'm not talking about increasing
total deflection, just increasing the response rate.
It seems that shortening the aileron horns 20% to 30% would give me
more deflection for the same stick movement. What are the potential
downsides that I'm not considering? Has anyone done this? I'm
interested in any thoughts or opinions on the subject.
Thanks,
Steve Ruse
Norman, OK
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