---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/03/09: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Re: Aileron response & stick movement (Jack Phillips) 2. 05:52 AM - control cable concerns (Douwe Blumberg) 3. 05:55 AM - steel fuse and So Cal airports (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 02:07 PM - Pfeifer Sport plans (Darrel Jones) 5. 03:04 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Ray Krause) 6. 03:38 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Darrel Jones) 7. 04:18 PM - $4 Hamburgers (Gary Boothe) 8. 04:49 PM - Re: $4 Hamburgers (Darrel Jones) 9. 08:35 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Paul N. Peckham) 10. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (ALAN LYSCARS) 11. 08:54 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Ray Krause) 12. 09:02 PM - Re: $4 Hamburgers (Ray Krause) 13. 10:52 PM - Re: Aileron response & stick movement (Mike Tunnicliffe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:34 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement Steve, I agree that roll response is not the strong suit of this design, but I don't know that making the ailerons move faster will help much. Most airplanes achieve their max roll rate at some point before max aileron deflection, but it would certainly help a little because you could get the aileron response in a little faster. The Pietenpol has about the same roll rate as other planes of that era, such as the Piper J-3 Cub, the Fairchild 22 (and it has full span ailerons!) or the Aeronca L-3. The Aeronca Champ has a significantly higher roll rate. Faster roll rates can be achieved by clipping the wings, but I don't think you'd be happy with the climb rate of a clipped-wing Piet. I've flown mine in gusty 25 knot winds, with a nearly direct crosswind. It's a challenge, but can be done - you've just got to be ready to give quick, full deflection responses. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ruse Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 11:39 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement Has anyone shortened the aileron horns from stock length in order to get a faster roll response with smaller stick inputs? After flying my plane 300+ hours, there have been times where I wished I had more aileron. Typically in gusty, high wind conditions during turns. Especially when turning into the wind (like base to final), I've experienced gusts that tend to pull the low wing further down...not a comfortable situation when you are already low. Max aileron input in the opposite direction gives a response that is delayed and much slower than I would like. I'm running out of room for the stick, as it hits my leg. There is more aileron deflection left before I hit the stop, but in my typical flying position my leg is in the way (I'm about 6'0", BTW, with a stock Piet cockpit). If I shift to one side and lift my leg I can get more aileron deflection, so I'm not talking about increasing total deflection, just increasing the response rate. It seems that shortening the aileron horns 20% to 30% would give me more deflection for the same stick movement. What are the potential downsides that I'm not considering? Has anyone done this? I'm interested in any thoughts or opinions on the subject. Thanks, Steve Ruse Norman, OK ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:41 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cable concerns The guy who I bought my project from fabricated some of the control cable assemblies and now that I'm hooking things up, I have a couple concerns. In the rudder bar end (wood) is a pivoting strap with a hole in the back for the rudder and one in the front for the front pedals. He's attached the rudder cables to this pivoting strap with just a thimble, no shackle. Now since the strap pivots, there isn't really movement in there, but it concerns me, and doesn't seem kosher based on Bingeles's book (he doesn't discuss this, just doesn't show it). He did the same thing on the elevator cable in the middle of the stick, no shackle, just a thimble to a plate. Is this acceptable or should I tear it all out and refabricate? Hate doing that since everything is done, but if it's unsafe, there is no question. If I do need to refabricate, could I try cutting through the nicopress without damaging the cable? Douwe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:45 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: steel fuse and So Cal airports Mike, Welcome to the group! Having lived 38 years in So Cal, I hear your plight re an airport. Don't know if you're much of a driver, but there are two affordable airports in central Ca, about 3.5 hrs north. Ck out Santa Maria prices and little Oceano airport. I know it's far, but if your schedule allows weekends or something it might be an option. Another thought would be with your weather, it would probably be realistic to bring it to the airport and tie it down for a couple of weeks or months of flying, fabricate some extensive wing and fuse UV and dust covers and then bring it home again. (brainstorming here) If I was to build over again, I'd use the steel fuse mainly because it saves an appreciable amount of weight, plus being a welder, it would go together in a snap. good luck! D ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:01 PM PST US From: Darrel Jones Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans I just saw the article in the latest Sport Aviation about the group build of six steel-tube fuselage Pietenpols and thought that maybe some of the group would like to see plans for another steel-tube Pietenpol variant. My airplane is the Pfeifer Sport, build by Joe Pfeifer in 1975. He was a friend of Bernie's back in the good old days and built a steel-tube version of the Piet in 1930 and also powered it with a Model A engine. He built the Corvair powered version I own in 1975 after Bernie had started using Corvairs in his Piets. Joe also built World War I replicas, with his Sopwith Pup and Nieuport 17, both with Le Rhone rotaries, displayed at the Flying Lady Restaurant in Morgan Hill in the south San Francisco Bay area for many years. The fellow who drew up the blueprints for Joe was Ivan Dunlop, who had built a beautiful Model B powered Piet that was also displayed at the Flying Lady and is now rebuilt and flying from the South County airport museum. Ivan visited me here in Sonoma and got his first ride in the Pfeifer. Although he had drawn up the plans, he never got a ride when Joe owned the airplane. Since my copy of the plans were aging, I had them scanned and saved as .pdf files to preserve them. I had contacted Ivan's widow to try to find the original vellums, but could never track them down, so I think these are the only plans still in existence. If anyone would like a copy of the plans on disc let me know. I'll also scan the original 1976 Sport Aviation article written by Bill Turner and make that available. $5 ought to cover the cost of mailing and the disc. I hope to make it back to Brodhead again this year. It will be a while before I can get the Sport back there since I'm rebuilding the engine when I can steal time from work and other obligations. Darrel Jones Pfeifer Sport N154JP Sonoma, CA ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:43 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans Darrel, I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those planes at Osh this year. Ray Krause 843 Jay Street Colusa, CA 95932 Raykruase@frontiernet.net. Thanks, Ray Krause N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrel Jones" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans > > I just saw the article in the latest Sport Aviation about the group build > of six steel-tube fuselage Pietenpols and thought that maybe some of the > group would like to see plans for another steel-tube Pietenpol variant. > > My airplane is the Pfeifer Sport, build by Joe Pfeifer in 1975. He was a > friend of Bernie's back in the good old days and built a steel-tube > version of the Piet in 1930 and also powered it with a Model A engine. He > built the Corvair powered version I own in 1975 after Bernie had started > using Corvairs in his Piets. > > Joe also built World War I replicas, with his Sopwith Pup and Nieuport 17, > both with Le Rhone rotaries, displayed at the Flying Lady Restaurant in > Morgan Hill in the south San Francisco Bay area for many years. > > The fellow who drew up the blueprints for Joe was Ivan Dunlop, who had > built a beautiful Model B powered Piet that was also displayed at the > Flying Lady and is now rebuilt and flying from the South County airport > museum. Ivan visited me here in Sonoma and got his first ride in the > Pfeifer. Although he had drawn up the plans, he never got a ride when Joe > owned the airplane. > > Since my copy of the plans were aging, I had them scanned and saved as > .pdf files to preserve them. I had contacted Ivan's widow to try to find > the original vellums, but could never track them down, so I think these > are the only plans still in existence. > > If anyone would like a copy of the plans on disc let me know. I'll also > scan the original 1976 Sport Aviation article written by Bill Turner and > make that available. $5 ought to cover the cost of mailing and the disc. > > I hope to make it back to Brodhead again this year. It will be a while > before I can get the Sport back there since I'm rebuilding the engine when > I can steal time from work and other obligations. > > Darrel Jones > Pfeifer Sport N154JP > Sonoma, CA > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:25 PM PST US From: Darrel Jones Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans Ray, Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope and get it in the mail tomorrow. If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field. Darrel Ray Krause wrote: > > > Darrel, > > I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than > generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent > article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those > planes at Osh this year. > > Ray Krause > 843 Jay Street > Colusa, CA 95932 > Raykruase@frontiernet.net. > > Thanks, > > Ray Krause > > N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood > prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:12 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: $4 Hamburgers $4 HAMBURGERS!! THAT ALMOST BEATS JACK'S FREE NIGHT IN A B&B!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (13 ribs down.) DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrel Jones Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans Ray, Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope and get it in the mail tomorrow. If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field. Darrel Ray Krause wrote: > > > Darrel, > > I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than > generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent > article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those > planes at Osh this year. > > Ray Krause > 843 Jay Street > Colusa, CA 95932 > Raykruase@frontiernet.net. > > Thanks, > > Ray Krause > > N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood > prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs. > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:55 PM PST US From: Darrel Jones Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: $4 Hamburgers Gary, Not only that, but we have a shower and restroom so you can camp on the field before flying home in your Piet. If you're coming from anything over two hundred miles away, you should plan on making it an overnighter, since that would count as a long cross country. If the left coast Pieters would like to mplan a fly-in to Sonoma Skypark I would be happy to arrange meals and some hangar floor space for sleeping. We have an EAA clubhouse with a big screen TV and lots of flying movies on disc, including Waldo Pepper. We're having the Taylorcraft fly-in here this month and have hosted Travelairs and Waco fly-ins before. A bonus is that we can carpool over the Schellville, which is only two miles away, and see Chris Prevost's newly restored P-40N and Frank Schelling's award winning Jenny JN-4H, as well as a few more goodies. If you want a ride in the P-40, it's only $1600. He does have Stearman and AT-6 rides for considerably less. Let me know and we can pick a date that doesn't conflict with Brodhead and Oshkosh. I'll contact Walt to make sure he can come out and show his Pietenpol. Darrel Gary Boothe wrote: > > $4 HAMBURGERS!! THAT ALMOST BEATS JACK'S FREE NIGHT IN A B&B!! > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear > (13 ribs down.) > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrel Jones > Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:30 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans > > > Ray, > > Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope > and get it in the mail tomorrow. > > If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to > Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also > have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field. > > Darrel > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:54 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pfeifer Sport plans From: "Paul N. Peckham" Darrel, I also would love to get a set of the plans for the Pfeifer Sport. I remember reading that article by Bill Turner years ago. It always made me laugh. It's funny how some homebuilts became famous, while others sank into obscurity. The Pfeifer Sport was apparently the latter which is too bad since it was such an interesting historical type aircraft with a direct link to the Pietenpol. Is yours the only flying example or are there other ones out there? Thank you for your generous offer. Here's my address: Paul N. Peckham 23747 Country Lane Richland Center, WI 53581 Thanks again. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242585#242585 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:11 PM PST US From: "ALAN LYSCARS" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pfeifer Sport plans Darrel, Please include me on your list of "plans wanters." Thanks very much for your effort! Al Lyscars 723 Pine St. Manchester, NH 03104 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul N. Peckham" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 11:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pfeifer Sport plans > > > Darrel, > > I also would love to get a set of the plans for the Pfeifer Sport. snipped ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:11 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans Darrel, I have looked at Sonoma Skypark as a possible destination, sounds like a lot of fun. Just flew to Lakeport, Ukiah and Little River Monday, great flight. I will get the info on 0Q9 right away. As soon as the weather is better, I will be there. $4.00 hamburgers sound great! Will send the $ as soon as your package arrives. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrel Jones" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans > > Ray, > > Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope and > get it in the mail tomorrow. > > If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to > Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also > have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field. > > Darrel > > Ray Krause wrote: >> >> >> Darrel, >> >> I would love to have a set of the plans. Your offer is more than >> generous. How do I get the money to you? Cash, check? The recent >> article in the Sport Aviation is really great. Hope to see those planes >> at Osh this year. >> >> Ray Krause >> 843 Jay Street >> Colusa, CA 95932 >> Raykruase@frontiernet.net. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Krause >> >> N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, >> Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 91 hrs. >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:06 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: $4 Hamburgers Darrel, Sounds like a great place for a Sonex fly-in. Don't think we would need to stay over night, we go a little faster than the Piets.... but we don't see nearly as much! Now that I have the Sonex for getting places faster, I am gathering all the "stuff" for the Piet. I have to get up to see Gary sometime but am afraid I would get too inspired. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrel Jones" Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: $4 Hamburgers > > Gary, > > Not only that, but we have a shower and restroom so you can camp on the > field before flying home in your Piet. If you're coming from anything over > two hundred miles away, you should plan on making it an overnighter, since > that would count as a long cross country. > > If the left coast Pieters would like to mplan a fly-in to Sonoma Skypark I > would be happy to arrange meals and some hangar floor space for sleeping. > We have an EAA clubhouse with a big screen TV and lots of flying movies on > disc, including Waldo Pepper. > > We're having the Taylorcraft fly-in here this month and have hosted > Travelairs and Waco fly-ins before. A bonus is that we can carpool over > the Schellville, which is only two miles away, and see Chris Prevost's > newly restored P-40N and Frank Schelling's award winning Jenny JN-4H, as > well as a few more goodies. If you want a ride in the P-40, it's only > $1600. He does have Stearman and AT-6 rides for considerably less. > > Let me know and we can pick a date that doesn't conflict with Brodhead and > Oshkosh. I'll contact Walt to make sure he can come out and show his > Pietenpol. > > Darrel > > Gary Boothe wrote: >> >> >> $4 HAMBURGERS!! THAT ALMOST BEATS JACK'S FREE NIGHT IN A B&B!! >> >> Gary Boothe >> Cool, Ca. >> Pietenpol >> WW Corvair Conversion >> Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear >> (13 ribs down.) >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrel >> Jones >> Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:30 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans >> >> >> Ray, >> >> Cash in an envelope is simplest. I'll put a disc in a padded envelope and >> get it in the mail tomorrow. >> >> If you feel like flying a long cross country from Colusa, come over to >> Sonoma Skypark, 0Q9, on any Saturday for $4 hamburgers at noon. We also >> have Walt Bowe's original style A powered Pietenpol on the field. >> >> Darrel >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:41 PM PST US From: Mike Tunnicliffe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement Hi Steve, it is a bad idea to increase the deflection of control surfaces as it may subject the wing to greater torsional forces than it was designed to cope with, also the control surfaces can stall which can lead to a reversed control effect, definitely not what you want to happen. Regards Mike T. Just the assembly of the wing to go, and that will be my timber work done. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Ruse To: Pietenpol List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 3:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement Has anyone shortened the aileron horns from stock length in order to get a faster roll response with smaller stick inputs? After flying my plane 300+ hours, there have been times where I wished I had more aileron. Typically in gusty, high wind conditions during turns. Especially when turning into the wind (like base to final), I've experienced gusts that tend to pull the low wing further down...not a comfortable situation when you are already low. Max aileron input in the opposite direction gives a response that is delayed and much slower than I would like. I'm running out of room for the stick, as it hits my leg. There is more aileron deflection left before I hit the stop, but in my typical flying position my leg is in the way (I'm about 6'0", BTW, with a stock Piet cockpit). If I shift to one side and lift my leg I can get more aileron deflection, so I'm not talking about increasing total deflection, just increasing the response rate. It seems that shortening the aileron horns 20% to 30% would give me more deflection for the same stick movement. What are the potential downsides that I'm not considering? Has anyone done this? I'm interested in any thoughts or opinions on the subject. Thanks, Steve Ruse Norman, OK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.