---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/04/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:13 AM - Re: control cable concerns (Ed G.) 2. 05:28 AM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 3. 05:41 AM - Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 5. 05:57 AM - Pfiefer Sport (Oscar Zuniga) 6. 06:24 AM - Re: Aileron response & stick movement (Gene Rambo) 7. 06:24 AM - Re: control cable concerns (Gene Rambo) 8. 06:24 AM - Re: Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? (Steve Ruse) 9. 06:39 AM - Re: Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? (Jack Phillips) 10. 06:39 AM - aileron effectiveness (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 11. 01:37 PM - Re: steel fuse and So Cal airports (Codeseven) 12. 01:39 PM - homebuilt cable tensiometer (Oscar Zuniga) 13. 03:05 PM - Re: cable shackle alternative (shad bell) 14. 04:05 PM - Re: homebuilt cable tensiometer (Isablcorky@aol.com) 15. 06:39 PM - Re: Pfeifer Sport plans (Darrel Jones) 16. 07:04 PM - Pfeifer Sport plans (Darrel Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:35 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: control cable concerns Good Morning Douwe I can answer part of your question. I got halfway thro ugh the swageing process one time and realized I had done something wrong. I tried to cut the swage off and redo it. No way. The swage would not come off the cable so I disected the swage joint with my Dremmel to see why. The copper had actually been pressed down into the cable so that all the stran ds were surrounded by copper. I was amazed but I'll never doubt a well done swage again. In " My opinion" I don't see a problem with the lack of a sha ckle in your controls as long as the pivoting is taken by the pivot bolt no t by the cable joint. Hopefully some others will jump in on that. Ed Gren tzer > From: douweblumberg@earthlink.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cable concerns > Date: Sun=2C 3 May 2009 08:54:23 -0400 > thlink.net> > > The guy who I bought my project from fabricated some of the control cable > assemblies and now that I'm hooking things up=2C I have a couple concerns .. > > In the rudder bar end (wood) is a pivoting strap with a hole in the back for > the rudder and one in the front for the front pedals. > > He's attached the rudder cables to this pivoting strap with just a thimbl e=2C > no shackle. Now since the strap pivots=2C there isn't really movement in > there=2C but it concerns me=2C and doesn't seem kosher based on Bingeles' s book > (he doesn't discuss this=2C just doesn't show it). > > He did the same thing on the elevator cable in the middle of the stick=2C no > shackle=2C just a thimble to a plate. > > Is this acceptable or should I tear it all out and refabricate? Hate doin g > that since everything is done=2C but if it's unsafe=2C there is no questi on. > > If I do need to refabricate=2C could I try cutting through the nicopress > without damaging the cable? > > Douwe > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:06 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans Darryl, I also would like a copy of the disc. Please send me your address. Could you give me some baisic specs on the Pfeiffer? How does it differ/resemble a Piet? The only photo I can find with a Google search is pretty grainey Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Darrel Jones Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans > > I just saw the article in the latest Sport Aviation about the group > build of six steel-tube fuselage Pietenpols and thought that maybe some > of the group would like to see plans for another steel-tube Pietenpol > variant. > > My airplane is the Pfeifer Sport, build by Joe Pfeifer in 1975. He was a > friend of Bernie's back in the good old days and built a steel-tube > version of the Piet in 1930 and also powered it with a Model A engine. > He built the Corvair powered version I own in 1975 after Bernie had > started using Corvairs in his Piets. > > Joe also built World War I replicas, with his Sopwith Pup and Nieuport > 17, both with Le Rhone rotaries, displayed at the Flying Lady Restaurant > in Morgan Hill in the south San Francisco Bay area for many years. > > The fellow who drew up the blueprints for Joe was Ivan Dunlop, who had > built a beautiful Model B powered Piet that was also displayed at the > Flying Lady and is now rebuilt and flying from the South County airport > museum. Ivan visited me here in Sonoma and got his first ride in the > Pfeifer. Although he had drawn up the plans, he never got a ride when > Joe owned the airplane. > > Since my copy of the plans were aging, I had them scanned and saved as > .pdf files to preserve them. I had contacted Ivan's widow to try to find > the original vellums, but could never track them down, so I think these > are the only plans still in existence. > > If anyone would like a copy of the plans on disc let me know. I'll also > scan the original 1976 Sport Aviation article written by Bill Turner and > make that available. $5 ought to cover the cost of mailing and the disc. > > I hope to make it back to Brodhead again this year. It will be a while > before I can get the Sport back there since I'm rebuilding the engine > when I can steal time from work and other obligations. > > Darrel Jones > Pfeifer Sport N154JP > Sonoma, CA > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:11 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? Steve, Do you have gaps in your ailerons ala the GN-1 design or are they sealed ? For some reason I thought you fly a GN-1 though both Piet and GN-1 do require (if you want effective ailerons) gap seals of some sort. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:00 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans There is also a Pfeiffer JL Sport photo. It is a Biplane with a Piet looking tail. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans > NGB" < > > Darryl, I also would like a copy of the disc. Please send me your address. > > Could you give me some baisic specs on the Pfeiffer? > How does it differ/resemble a Piet? > The only photo I can find with a Google search is pretty grainey > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Darrel Jones < > Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009 16:20 > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > I just saw the article in the latest Sport Aviation about the group > > build of six steel-tube fuselage Pietenpols and thought that maybe some > > of the group would like to see plans for another steel-tube Pietenpol > > variant. > > > > My airplane is the Pfeifer Sport, build by Joe Pfeifer in 1975. He was a > > friend of Bernie's back in the good old days and built a steel-tube > > version of the Piet in 1930 and also powered it with a Model A engine. > > He built the Corvair powered version I own in 1975 after Bernie had > > started using Corvairs in his Piets. > > > > Joe also built World War I replicas, with his Sopwith Pup and Nieuport > > 17, both with Le Rhone rotaries, displayed at the Flying Lady Restaurant > > in Morgan Hill in the south San Francisco Bay area for many years. > > > > The fellow who drew up the blueprints for Joe was Ivan Dunlop, who had > > built a beautiful Model B powered Piet that was also displayed at the > > Flying Lady and is now rebuilt and flying from the South County airport > > museum. Ivan visited me here in Sonoma and got his first ride in the > > Pfeifer. Although he had drawn up the plans, he never got a ride when > > Joe owned the airplane. > > > > Since my copy of the plans were aging, I had them scanned and saved as > > .pdf files to preserve them. I had contacted Ivan's widow to try to find > > the original vellums, but could never track them down, so I think these > > are the only plans still in existence. > > > > If anyone would like a copy of the plans on disc let me know. I'll also > > scan the original 1976 Sport Aviation article written by Bill Turner and > > make that available. $5 ought to cover the cost of mailing and the disc. > > > > I hope to make it back to Brodhead again this year. It will be a while > > before I can get the Sport back there since I'm rebuilding the engine > > when I can steal time from work and other obligations. > > > > Darrel Jones > > Pfeifer Sport N154JP > > Sonoma, CA > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:30 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfiefer Sport There is a picture of Darrel Jones at the very bottom of this page=2C from Corvair College No. 5: http://www.flycorvair.com/cc5.html Looking at the photo=2C one could truly say that they were looking at Darre l "like he had three heads" =3Bo) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:00 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement In addition to the other comments, don't discount the increase in stick loads you would have. This could have other effects such as bending the torque tube or pulling at it's attachment fittings. Bad idea! Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Ruse To: Pietenpol List Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 11:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response & stick movement Has anyone shortened the aileron horns from stock length in order to get a faster roll response with smaller stick inputs? After flying my plane 300+ hours, there have been times where I wished I had more aileron. Typically in gusty, high wind conditions during turns. Especially when turning into the wind (like base to final), I've experienced gusts that tend to pull the low wing further down...not a comfortable situation when you are already low. Max aileron input in the opposite direction gives a response that is delayed and much slower than I would like. I'm running out of room for the stick, as it hits my leg. There is more aileron deflection left before I hit the stop, but in my typical flying position my leg is in the way (I'm about 6'0", BTW, with a stock Piet cockpit). If I shift to one side and lift my leg I can get more aileron deflection, so I'm not talking about increasing total deflection, just increasing the response rate. It seems that shortening the aileron horns 20% to 30% would give me more deflection for the same stick movement. What are the potential downsides that I'm not considering? Has anyone done this? I'm interested in any thoughts or opinions on the subject. Thanks, Steve Ruse Norman, OK http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:00 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cable concerns There are lots of production airplanes that have done the same thing throughout the years with no downside. A thimble through a fitting hole can be just fine, and saves an expensive shackle to boot. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 8:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cable concerns > The guy who I bought my project from fabricated some of the control cable assemblies and now that I'm hooking things up, I have a couple concerns. In the rudder bar end (wood) is a pivoting strap with a hole in the back for the rudder and one in the front for the front pedals. He's attached the rudder cables to this pivoting strap with just a thimble, no shackle. Now since the strap pivots, there isn't really movement in there, but it concerns me, and doesn't seem kosher based on Bingeles's book (he doesn't discuss this, just doesn't show it). He did the same thing on the elevator cable in the middle of the stick, no shackle, just a thimble to a plate. Is this acceptable or should I tear it all out and refabricate? Hate doing that since everything is done, but if it's unsafe, there is no question. If I do need to refabricate, could I try cutting through the nicopress without damaging the cable? Douwe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:09 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? Thanks Mike, It is a GN-1, and does have gap seals. Normally the ailerons are just fine. It is just that tiny 1/2% of my flying time that I need extra aileron due to crosswinds or gusty conditions, and my leg gets in the way of the stick. Mike T. mentioned greater torsional forces on the wing and stalled control surfaces if you increase deflection. Great points. To prevent both of those issues, I would move the aileron stops so that max deflection doesn't increase. I just get more deflection with the same stick movement. As a sidenote, this is the first message via e-mail that I've gotten back on this thread. I didn't get my own original message, but I can see Jack's and Mike T.'s responses on the Matronics forum. Mike C.'s response did come through e-mail. Does anyone have any idea why I'd be missing e-mail? They aren't in my spam folder. Thanks, Steve Quoting "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" : > Steve, > > Do you have gaps in your ailerons ala the GN-1 design or are they > sealed ? For some reason I thought you fly a GN-1 though both > Piet and GN-1 do require (if you want effective ailerons) gap seals > of some sort. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:55 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? Steve, I've had a number of my replies to the Matronics forum go "missing". Makes me wonder what else I'm missing. In general, the forums work very well. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ruse Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron response-Steve Ruse...GN-1 or Piet ? Thanks Mike, It is a GN-1, and does have gap seals. Normally the ailerons are just fine. It is just that tiny 1/2% of my flying time that I need extra aileron due to crosswinds or gusty conditions, and my leg gets in the way of the stick. Mike T. mentioned greater torsional forces on the wing and stalled control surfaces if you increase deflection. Great points. To prevent both of those issues, I would move the aileron stops so that max deflection doesn't increase. I just get more deflection with the same stick movement. As a sidenote, this is the first message via e-mail that I've gotten back on this thread. I didn't get my own original message, but I can see Jack's and Mike T.'s responses on the Matronics forum. Mike C.'s response did come through e-mail. Does anyone have any idea why I'd be missing e-mail? They aren't in my spam folder. Thanks, Steve Quoting "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" : > Steve, > > Do you have gaps in your ailerons ala the GN-1 design or are they > sealed ? For some reason I thought you fly a GN-1 though both > Piet and GN-1 do require (if you want effective ailerons) gap seals > of some sort. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:57 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: aileron effectiveness Steve, Would you consider making your ailerons one wing rib longer ? I don't see why you couldn't modify your wing and either build on-to or build a new, longer aileron. There may be some adverse yaw issues with a longer aileron though that I'm not considering. I agree with Jack that the Piet ailerons are adequate in gusty crosswinds though you do have to be ready for any upset close to flare (and for that very fun bucking bronco ride down final) and hope for the best regarding timing in the lulls and peaks. Prayer helps. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuse and So Cal airports From: "Codeseven" Thank you D, I appreciate it. Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242698#242698 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:07 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: homebuilt cable tensiometer No need to guess your cable tension anymore... here is a link to Larry McFa rland's website which contains many nifty ideas including a homebuilt tensi ometer. It is set up for 1/8" cable but just looking at the design=2C I'll bet you could use interchangeable springs and scales and use it for at lea st one other size of cable if not two more. http://www.macsmachine.com and look under "Tools=2C Jigging & Handling" for "Cable Tools" What I used to tension the cables on 41CC is a gadget made by Loos & Co.=2C here's a picture: http://www.foreandaftmarine.com/LO-90.htm I didn't so much care about the absolute value of the cable tension as I di d about equalizing the tension between wires. So=2C I tensioned one the wa y I wanted it=2C checked that value with the tensiometer=2C then set the ot hers the same. I have no idea what the actual tension is nor do I have Mik e Cuy's or Corky's tuning-fork ears to tell what note the cable produced wh en twanged =3Bo) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:20 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cable shackle alternative A nice easy and inexpensive substitute for a shackle is a motorcycle a chai n link, with a cable thimble and nicopress sleeve.- Not sure what size th ey are, as most are metric these days.- We used them on the rudder bar fo r the rudder cables, and just took out the roller pin and used 2 an clevis pins.- They are plenty strong for a pietenpol, if you want to test it hoo k a test cable to a tractor and a good size tree or trailor hitch and try t o break it. - Just another Idea Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:16 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: homebuilt cable tensiometer G flat **************Remember Mom this Mother's Day! Find a florist near you now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000006) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:25 PM PST US From: Darrel Jones Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB wrote: > > Darryl, I also would like a copy of the disc. Please send me your address. > > Could you give me some baisic specs on the Pfeiffer? > How does it differ/resemble a Piet? > The only photo I can find with a Google search is pretty grainey > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > Steve, > Reply with your address and I'll send the disc with the plans and article. You can send a check to the address on my return label. Darrel ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:45 PM PST US From: Darrel Jones Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pfeifer Sport plans I've had a good response to my offer of a .pdf copy of the Pfeifer Sport plans and have the first batch of discs in the mail. It occurred to me after I made my offer that I should make clear what my expectations are regarding the plans. I'm sharing them with the Pietenpol community for educational purposes only. Joe Pfeifer designed and built the Pfeifer Sport and had the original plans drawn. Joe is long gone now but his family is still around. The intellectual rights are still theirs, so if anyone gets excited about building another Pfeifer Sport it is only right that they contact Butch to get permission and possibly pay something for the plans. If you get some good ideas from the plans for your own Pietenpol, good for you. I wouldn't want someone duplicating and selling the plans from the discs I'm giving out. I think this group is an honorable bunch and don't expect anyone to violate this trust. Enjoy looking over what I think is an exceptional little airplane. I hope to have it back in the air while I'm still able to fly it. Maybe when I retire I'll take the summer off and fly it back to Brodhead! Hope to make it there this summer for the Pietenpol anniversary and to see all those Piets at Oshkosh. Blue skies, Darrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.