---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/11/09: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (Tim Willis) 2. 05:40 AM - Re: Re: ATV tundra tires (Ben Charvet) 3. 07:27 AM - Re: ATV tundra tires (K5YAC) 4. 07:49 AM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (Skip Gadd) 5. 08:09 AM - Re: ATV tundra tires (Catdesigns) 6. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: ATV tundra tires (Kirk Huizenga) 7. 09:13 AM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (Bill Church) 8. 09:53 AM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (helspersew@aol.com) 9. 10:17 AM - Re: Re: ATV tundra tires (Roman Bukolt) 10. 10:44 AM - Re: ATV tundra tires (K5YAC) 11. 12:47 PM - ATV Tires (Kirk Huizenga) 12. 12:49 PM - ATV Tires (Kirk H) 13. 01:50 PM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (Rick Holland) 14. 02:17 PM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (Gene Rambo) 15. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: ATV tundra tires (Gene & Tammy) 16. 08:22 PM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach (Rick Holland) 17. 09:53 PM - Re: front seat shoulder harness attach () 18. 11:43 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: aileron cable leads (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:12 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach Ben, cheap and light work for me, too. I am still looking into what will fit. Up to now, I have come close, but no cigar. Some variant will work, I think, and now I am inspired to look for tiny little changes. For instance, I now think I can make the bottom element, the X-tube, in 3 pieces-- a right and left tube that would slip inside a larger shorter middle tube. I can telescope it into place and then bolt through after extension. Working out all the Vees and details may follow. Time for a cheap wood mockup here-- a "mockassy"? BTW, I was given a couple of very large brass turnbuckles that I won't use elsewhere-- overkill for other apps. Hummmm. Thanks to all for your good designs and tinkering. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Ben Charvet >Sent: Jun 10, 2009 8:50 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach > >Mine can be slid into place with all the instruments in the instrument panel, and I havestrip in place connecting the instrument panel mount with the passenger seat-back. It is a tight fit, and maybe I was just lucky. I couldn't see the need for a turnbuckle there, or maybe I was just in a thrifty, frugal, (cheap!) mood that week. // Ben > >--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Tim Willis wrote: >From: Tim Willis >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 8:10 PM > > >Both the UK design (and Dan H.'s implementation, each featuring large turnbuckles or threaded mounts) and Santiago's design (with boltable straps) allow the builder to weld only part, if any, of the pieces, and otherwise slip in components under the plywood and cowling pieces, and around the instruments, then assemble in place. This can be an advantage. If you weld and bolt up the harness assy. first, and then build all the rest, you can make it all one piece as welded. But then the harness assy. a) is either in in your way as you run tubing, wires, cables, and mount instruments, put the ply pieces up, etc., or b) requires you to keep putting the mount in an out to see if things clear, and to get it out of the way. I am not saying this as artfully as I might, but perhaps you get what I mean.// Tim in central TX > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Bill Church >>Sent: Jun 10, 2009 2:38 PM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach >> >> >>I've seen photos and drawings of the UK design (see http://www.westcoastpiet.com/seatbelts.htm ), and I have not been able >>to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why they need to have those turnbuckle-type fittings in there. I can't see why a builder would not be able to determine a fixed position and build the shoulderstrap support rigidly, just like Ben Charvet has done. Perhaps it's because the UK is much more restrictive towards homebuilt aircraft - EVERYTHING has to be approved, so the drawings would allow for adjustment to suit each particular aircraft. Ben's approach makes sense to me. // Bill C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:46 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires I'm flying around in a cub yellow Baby Ace right now, and frequently fly over woods, etc. Having the aircraft in a brighter color than olive drab could make it easier for someone to find you in an off-airport emergency. I also carry one of the new Spot GPS transmitters that is quite comforting. Depending on the terrain you will be flying over, you might want to think twice about camouflaging your Piet. Just a thought. It would look pretty nice painted up as an observer and I entertained the same thoughts earlier in my build before I started flying again. Ben * * K5YAC wrote: > > That sounds cool. What a neat vision your comment just put in my head. > > I plan to color mine up in OD Green with Allied Forces invasion stripes on the wing. Big fat ATV tires would look kind of cool... and I would think that with ATV racing, there should be some strong and lightweight wheels out there with decent braking systems. > > -------- > Mark - working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247600#247600 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:46 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires From: "K5YAC" Yep, good idea. I edited my post prior to your reply because I'm really not 100% sure on the finish, but... I am an 82nd Airborne Division veteran and to me, everything looks better in OD Green. Besides, how can I strafe trains and supply routes with an observer paint scheme? Ok, ok... just kidding. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247679#247679 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:13 AM PST US From: "Skip Gadd" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach Bill & Santiago, The UK design takes the cross brace cables off the top of the shoulder harness attach, the turnbuckle-type fittings are how they adjust the cross brace cables. I made mine almost the same as Ben. After seeing Santiago's design, I wish I had done it that way, very cool Santiago. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Sent: 6/10/2009 3:43:52 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach I've seen photos and drawings of the UK design (see http://www.westcoastpiet.com/seatbelts.htm ), and I have not been able to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why they need to have those turnbuckle-type fittings in there. I can't see why a builder would not be able to determine a fixed position and build the shoulderstrap support rigidly, just like Ben Charvet has done. Perhaps it's because the UK is much more restrictive towards homebuilt aircraft - EVERYTHING has to be approved, so the drawings would allow for adjustment to suit each particular aircraft. Ben's approach makes sense to me. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:41 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires From: "Catdesigns" Take a look at Ty Daniels wheels on his Pietenpol. I believe he used ATV tires and rims. Typically, the knobs are cut off and the tire sanded smooth. Sounds like a lot of work but looks really good. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/new_page_54.htm I think there was a drawing of an adapter plate for ATV rims in one of the old BPA newsletters. I will try to dig it out tonight and scan it. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247683#247683 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:01 AM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires Also check photos for Leon Stephan's Piet at http://mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=282 On Jun 11, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Catdesigns wrote: > > > Take a look at Ty Daniels wheels on his Pietenpol. I believe he used > ATV tires and rims. Typically, the knobs are cut off and the tire > sanded smooth. Sounds like a lot of work but looks really good. > > http://www.westcoastpiet.com/new_page_54.htm > > I think there was a drawing of an adapter plate for ATV rims in one > of the old BPA newsletters. I will try to dig it out tonight and > scan it. > > Chris > > -------- > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, CA > WestCoastPiet.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247683#247683 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:49 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach From: "Bill Church" Okay, I think I see now. After reading Skip's comment, and then taking another look at the UK drawing of Hal Danby's design, I discovered the note that says "Adjust tie-rods for neutral load after final adjustment of CofG and cabane roll-wires". I see now that the tie-rods are there to allow for adjusting the angle to compensate for the movement of the wing (usually aft) for weight and balance. Since the cross-brace wire attachment points have been moved to the top of this support, the support would need to be adjustable to avoid putting unnecessary loads on the fuselage (through the support bracket). It now makes sense to me, but I still think Ben's approach is simpler and more logical. Thanks Skip. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach From: helspersew@aol.com Yes I agree, Santiago's design is the best I have seen, and I wish I had done it that way. Very simple, strong?and complete. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Skip Gadd Sent: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 9:47 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach Bill & Santiago, ?The UK design takes the cross brace cables off the top of the shoulder harness attach, the turnbuckle-type fittings are how they adjust the cross brace cables. I made mine almost the same as Ben. After seeing Santiago's design, I wish I had done it that way, very cool Santiago. Skip ? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Sent: 6/10/2009 3:43:52 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach I've seen photos and drawings of the UK design (see? http://www.westcoastpiet.com/seatbelts.htm ), and I have not been able to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why they need to have those turnbuckle-type fittings in there. I can't see why a builder would not be able to determine a fixed position and build the shoulderstrap support rigidly, just like Ben Charvet has done. Perhaps it's because the UK is much more restrictive towards homebuilt aircraft - EVERYTHING has to be approved, so the drawings would allow for adjustment to suit each particular aircraft. Ben's approach makes sense to me. Bill C.? [Image Removed] [Image Removed] ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:13 AM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires Speaking of camouflage, my Piet, (see cover of current BPA News letter) NX20795 has those orange stripes painted on the wing because the plane blended in with the Iowa landscape and couldn't be seen by other aircraft flying above it especially in the spring and fall. Of course, now flying in green Wisconsin, it's not a problem. Roman Bukolt, NX20795 do not archive On Jun 11, 2009, at 7:40 AM, Ben Charvet wrote: > > > > I'm flying around in a cub yellow Baby Ace right now, and frequently > fly over woods, etc. Having the aircraft in a brighter color than > olive drab could make it easier for someone to find you in an off- > airport emergency. I also carry one of the new Spot GPS > transmitters that is quite comforting. Depending on the terrain you > will be flying over, you might want to think twice about > camouflaging your Piet. Just a thought. It would look pretty nice > painted up as an observer and I entertained the same thoughts > earlier in my build before I started flying again. > > Ben > * > * > K5YAC wrote: >> >> That sounds cool. What a neat vision your comment just put in my >> head. >> I plan to color mine up in OD Green with Allied Forces invasion >> stripes on the wing. Big fat ATV tires would look kind of cool... >> and I would think that with ATV racing, there should be some strong >> and lightweight wheels out there with decent braking systems. >> >> -------- >> Mark - working on wings >> >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247600#247600 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:32 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires From: "K5YAC" Alright, point taken... but if someone can't see invasion stripes floating over tree tops, they need to work on their scan. Crap, someone turned of the "img" feature... gotta do it the old way I guess. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247707#247707 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/245565125_a478e12cfb_775.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:01 PM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Pietenpol-List: ATV Tires Also check photos for Leon Stephan's Piet at http://mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=282 Kirk ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:21 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: ATV Tires From: Kirk H Also check photos for Leon Stephan's Piet at http://mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=282 Kirk ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach From: Rick Holland Hate to bring up the mock fuselage thing again but I have a rather extream solution to your front shoulder harness problem. How do they solve this problem with Wacos and Stearmans? Welded tube fuselages! So here is my solution, just declare your current wood fuselage to be your mock fuselage (you can even use it for the mock fuselage crash testing as mentioned y On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Tim Willis wrote: > timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > Ben, cheap and light work for me, too. I am still looking into what will > fit. Up to now, I have come close, but no cigar. Some variant will work, I > think, and now I am inspired to look for tiny little changes. For instance, > I now think I can make the bottom element, the X-tube, in 3 pieces-- a right > and left tube that would slip inside a larger shorter middle tube. I can > telescope it into place and then bolt through after extension. Working out > all the Vees and details may follow. Time for a cheap wood mockup here-- a > "mockassy"? BTW, I was given a couple of very large brass turnbuckles that > I won't use elsewhere-- overkill for other apps. Hummmm. > > Thanks to all for your good designs and tinkering. > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Ben Charvet > >Sent: Jun 10, 2009 8:50 PM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach > > > >Mine can be slid into place with all the instruments in the instrument > panel, and I have strip in place connecting the instrument panel mount with > the passenger seat-back. It is a tight fit, and maybe I was just lucky. I > couldn't see the need for a turnbuckle there, or maybe I was just in a > thrifty, frugal, (cheap!) mood that week. // Ben > > > >--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Tim Willis wrote: > >From: Tim Willis > >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 8:10 PM > > > timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > > >Both the UK design (and Dan H.'s implementation, each featuring large > turnbuckles or threaded mounts) and Santiago's design (with boltable straps) > allow the builder to weld only part, if any, of the pieces, and otherwise > slip in components under the plywood and cowling pieces, and around the > instruments, then assemble in place. This can be an advantage. If you weld > and bolt up the harness assy. first, and then build all the rest, you can > make it all one piece as welded. But then the harness assy. a) is either in > in your way as you run tubing, wires, cables, and mount instruments, put the > ply pieces up, etc., or b) requires you to keep putting the mount in an out > to see if things clear, and to get it out of the way. I am not saying this > as artfully as I might, but perhaps you get what I mean.// Tim in central > TX > > > >-----Original Message----- > >>From: Bill Church > >>Sent: Jun 10, 2009 2:38 PM > >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach > >> > >> > >>I've seen photos and drawings of the UK design (see > http://www.westcoastpiet.com/seatbelts.htm ), and I have not been able > >>to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why they need to have > those turnbuckle-type fittings in there. I can't see why a builder would not > be able to determine a fixed position and build the shoulderstrap support > rigidly, just like Ben Charvet has done. Perhaps it's because the UK is much > more restrictive towards homebuilt aircraft - EVERYTHING has to be approved, > so the drawings would allow for adjustment to suit each particular aircraft. > Ben's approach makes sense to me. // Bill C. > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:54 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach REAL Wacos don't have shoulder harnesses. Stearman shoulder harnesses do not attach to the welded steel fuselage, the aluminum (or wood) seat is the attach point for the shoulder harness. The same thing for later Wacos. Because some Stearmans had wooden seats, you are back at square one. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach Hate to bring up the mock fuselage thing again but I have a rather extream solution to your front shoulder harness problem. How do they solve this problem with Wacos and Stearmans? Welded tube fuselages! So here is my solution, just declare your current wood fuselage to be your mock fuselage (you can even use it for the mock fuselage crash testing as mentioned y On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Tim Willis > wrote: > Ben, cheap and light work for me, too. I am still looking into what will fit. Up to now, I have come close, but no cigar. Some variant will work, I think, and now I am inspired to look for tiny little changes. For instance, I now think I can make the bottom element, the X-tube, in 3 pieces-- a right and left tube that would slip inside a larger shorter middle tube. I can telescope it into place and then bolt through after extension. Working out all the Vees and details may follow. Time for a cheap wood mockup here-- a "mockassy"? BTW, I was given a couple of very large brass turnbuckles that I won't use elsewhere-- overkill for other apps. Hummmm. Thanks to all for your good designs and tinkering. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Ben Charvet > >Sent: Jun 10, 2009 8:50 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach > >Mine can be slid into place with all the instruments in the instrument panel, and I have strip in place connecting the instrument panel mount with the passenger seat-back. It is a tight fit, and maybe I was just lucky. I couldn't see the need for a turnbuckle there, or maybe I was just in a thrifty, frugal, (cheap!) mood that week. // Ben > >--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Tim Willis > wrote: >From: Tim Willis > >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 8:10 PM > > > >Both the UK design (and Dan H.'s implementation, each featuring large turnbuckles or threaded mounts) and Santiago's design (with boltable straps) allow the builder to weld only part, if any, of the pieces, and otherwise slip in components under the plywood and cowling pieces, and around the instruments, then assemble in place. This can be an advantage. If you weld and bolt up the harness assy. first, and then build all the rest, you can make it all one piece as welded. But then the harness assy. a) is either in in your way as you run tubing, wires, cables, and mount instruments, put the ply pieces up, etc., or b) requires you to keep putting the mount in an out to see if things clear, and to get it out of the way. I am not saying this as artfully as I might, but perhaps you get what I mean.// Tim in central TX > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Bill Church > >>Sent: Jun 10, 2009 2:38 PM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach >> >> >>I've seen photos and drawings of the UK design (see http://www.westcoastpiet.com/seatbelts.htm ), and I have not been able >>to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why they need to have those turnbuckle-type fittings in there. I can't see why a builder would not be able to determine a fixed position and build the shoulderstrap support rigidly, just like Ben Charvet has done. Perhaps it's because the UK is much more restrictive towards homebuilt aircraft - EVERYTHING has to be approved, so the drawings would allow for adjustment to suit each particular aircraft. Ben's approach makes sense to me. // Bill C. ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:41 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires Ben. I also fly with the SPOT transmitter and it is comforting. Well worth the price. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Charvet" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ATV tundra tires > > I'm flying around in a cub yellow Baby Ace right now, and frequently fly > over woods, etc. Having the aircraft in a brighter color than olive > drab could make it easier for someone to find you in an off-airport > emergency. I also carry one of the new Spot GPS transmitters that is > quite comforting. Depending on the terrain you will be flying over, you > might want to think twice about camouflaging your Piet. Just a > thought. It would look pretty nice painted up as an observer and I > entertained the same thoughts earlier in my build before I started > flying again. > > Ben > * > * > K5YAC wrote: >> >> That sounds cool. What a neat vision your comment just put in my head. >> >> I plan to color mine up in OD Green with Allied Forces invasion stripes >> on the wing. Big fat ATV tires would look kind of cool... and I would >> think that with ATV racing, there should be some strong and lightweight >> wheels out there with decent braking systems. >> >> -------- >> Mark - working on wings >> >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247600#247600 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 05:53:00 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach From: Rick Holland REAL Wacos don't have shoulder harnesses. Stearman shoulder harnesses do > not attach to the welded steel fuselage, the aluminum (or wood) seat is the > attach point for the shoulder harness. The same thing for later Wacos. > Because some Stearmans had wooden seats, you are back at square one. > > Yea, I guess real men don't need no stinkin shoulder harnesses. rick ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:09 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach It is so obvious I cant believe no one said before AIRBAG, Chris Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Holland To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: front seat shoulder harness attach REAL Wacos don't have shoulder harnesses. Stearman shoulder harnesses do not attach to the welded steel fuselage, the aluminum (or wood) seat is the attach point for the shoulder harness. The same thing for later Wacos. Because some Stearmans had wooden seats, you are back at square one. Yea, I guess real men don't need no stinkin shoulder harnesses. rick ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:01 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: aileron cable leads Don't forget, 3 maximum for fairleads. Clif "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery > Thanks Tim; Depending on how severe the turn in the cables has to be > I will either use a couple of extra pulleys or just fiarleads if the > change in direction is fairly small. > Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.