Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:28 AM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Clif Dawson)
2. 03:34 AM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Jack Phillips)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Gary Boothe)
4. 05:35 AM - Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (rameses32)
5. 05:39 AM - "Weed whacker comment" (Oscar Zuniga)
6. 06:17 AM - Re: Corvair buy (chase143)
7. 06:25 AM - Re: "Weed whacker comment" (Wayne Bressler)
8. 06:40 AM - Straight Axle gear questions (Michael Groah)
9. 06:42 AM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Jared Yates)
10. 07:13 AM - Re: "Weed whacker comment" (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
11. 07:20 AM - Tail wheel flying...... (Dave Abramson)
12. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Dave Abramson)
13. 08:19 AM - Re: "Weed whacker comment" (Dan Yocum)
14. 09:10 AM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Mark Roberts)
15. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Ed G.)
16. 09:10 AM - anybody have contact info for Bill Rewey? (Douwe Blumberg)
17. 09:35 AM - Re: anybody have contact info for Bill Rewey? (Ryan Mueller)
18. 09:42 AM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Owen Davies)
19. 10:25 AM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Mark Roberts)
20. 10:39 AM - Creve Coeur Airport (Jim Markle)
21. 10:57 AM - Re: seat slings (Thomas Bernie)
22. 11:10 AM - Re: Creve Coeur Airport (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
23. 11:12 AM - Re: Creve Coeur Airport (Jack Phillips)
24. 11:23 AM - Re: Creve Coeur Airport (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
25. 11:35 AM - A metal vs wood consideration (BYD@att.net)
26. 11:48 AM - Re: Straight Axle gear questions (Jack Phillips)
27. 01:25 PM - Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Bill Church)
28. 03:26 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Owen Davies)
29. 04:10 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (rameses32)
30. 04:11 PM - Re: Straight Axle gear questions (helspersew@aol.com)
31. 04:22 PM - Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (rameses32)
32. 04:26 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Owen Davies)
33. 04:41 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Gary Boothe)
34. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Mark Roberts)
35. 05:55 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Mark Roberts)
36. 06:13 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Darrel Jones)
37. 06:15 PM - Re: Creve Coeur Airport (Darrel Jones)
38. 07:12 PM - Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions (Owen Davies)
39. 10:44 PM - Re: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
I have gone back through my building log and found
that from laying out the fuselage plan full size on my
building table to having a completed basic wood
fuselage with seats, ready for turtledeck, combings
etc came to 64 hours.
The controls on the Georgias are quite a bit simpler
than the Piet. First of all there's only one stick. The
aileron horn is a simple vertical post unlike our
complicated horn assembly. The original wasn't like
that but was more difficult to get your feet around
and the cable and pulleys were out in the air. I have
twenty hours logged for controls including dual
rudder bars and cables.
Clif
>
time that it takes to build a steel fuselage. I built a Georgias Special
fuselage, on gear, with controls, seat, and empanage, it took me a total of
100 hours..
> Charley
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
Anyone building a Pietenpol should just go ahead and learn to weld. I
started building my Pietenpol because it was made of wood and I didn't know
how to weld. It never ocurred to me how many welded parts there would be on
a"wooden" airplane. I bought an oxy-acetylene rig and had an accomplished
welder come give me about 30 minutesof instruction. Then I worked on a box
of steel scraps making practive weld beads and became a decent welder. I
ended up doing all the welding on mine except for the aluminum fuel tank,
which my neighbor welded with his TIG welder. By the time I finished the
airplane, the welding was my favorite fabrication activity, outside of
fabric covering.
Get the EAA Aircraft Welding book and start practicing. This whole process
is about Recreation and Education.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 11:30 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
Mark,
That's good advice from Mike, as I understand he's quite an accomplished
welder. FYI - I have a brand new set of oxy/acetylene regulators that I will
sell to you for $100 (acetylene - Harris, oxygen - off brand) for both
(that's about 50% off).
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(13 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
Mark, I think I'd pick whatever method you prefer. Either method will take
lots of time as there are many, many parts to make. I am building with
wood because I like wood, have the tools and like the end product. It took
very little time to build the basic fuselage with wood, it's the detail
stuff that takes time. I was amazed at how quickly it went together. I
know it would have taken me twice as long to do it in metal with all the
fishmouthing and fitting. But that's just me. As I've said before, you're
welcome to come down to Tulare and see my project. You can see how it's
constructed and you can sit in it to try on the plans built cockpit (or just
to make airplane noises if you'd rather).
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
559-360-4089 (Cell)
-
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
I should have said, my reason for selling the regulators is that I have two
sets, and I prefer the older set, recently rebuilt.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(13 ribs down.)
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 3:26 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
Anyone building a Pietenpol should just go ahead and learn to weld. I
started building my Pietenpol because it was made of wood and I didn't know
how to weld. It never ocurred to me how many welded parts there would be on
a"wooden" airplane. I bought an oxy-acetylene rig and had an accomplished
welder come give me about 30 minutesof instruction. Then I worked on a box
of steel scraps making practive weld beads and became a decent welder. I
ended up doing all the welding on mine except for the aluminum fuel tank,
which my neighbor welded with his TIG welder. By the time I finished the
airplane, the welding was my favorite fabrication activity, outside of
fabric covering.
Get the EAA Aircraft Welding book and start practicing. This whole process
is about Recreation and Education.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 11:30 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
Mark,
That's good advice from Mike, as I understand he's quite an accomplished
welder. FYI - I have a brand new set of oxy/acetylene regulators that I will
sell to you for $100 (acetylene - Harris, oxygen - off brand) for both
(that's about 50% off).
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(13 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
Mark, I think I'd pick whatever method you prefer. Either method will take
lots of time as there are many, many parts to make. I am building with
wood because I like wood, have the tools and like the end product. It took
very little time to build the basic fuselage with wood, it's the detail
stuff that takes time. I was amazed at how quickly it went together. I
know it would have taken me twice as long to do it in metal with all the
fishmouthing and fitting. But that's just me. As I've said before, you're
welcome to come down to Tulare and see my project. You can see how it's
constructed and you can sit in it to try on the plans built cockpit (or just
to make airplane noises if you'd rather).
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
559-360-4089 (Cell)
-
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
Thats great time, I know it would take me alot longer than that to do in wood,
I figure the wing is going to be a big enough challenge in wood for me. Well that
and I will be making a prop first, well, second, I'm starting on the wheels
next week and then a prop and engine mount for the Holden 186. I'm mounting
the 186 to the Georgias Special Fuselage for testing. The Georgias will never
fly, but it is going to growl, at least it will taste life for a short time. For
some reason I feel like Dr Frankenstien.
CHaRlEy
CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca wrote:
> I have gone back through my building log and found
> that from laying out the fuselage plan full size on my
> building table to having a completed basic wood
> fuselage with seats, ready for turtledeck, combings
> etc came to 64 hours.
> The controls on the Georgias are quite a bit simpler
> than the Piet. First of all there's only one stick. The
> aileron horn is a simple vertical post unlike our
> complicated horn assembly. The original wasn't like
> that but was more difficult to get your feet around
> and the cable and pulleys were out in the air. I have
> twenty hours logged for controls including dual
> rudder bars and cables.
>
> Clif
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > time that it takes to build a steel fuselage. I built a Georgias Special
> >
>
> fuselage, on gear, with controls, seat, and empanage, it took me a total of
> 100 hours..
>
> > Charley
> >
> >
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248184#248184
Message 5
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| Subject: | "Weed whacker comment" |
I've gotten some funny looks myself, but those seem to come from
non-pilots who think the Piet is either so old as to be unsafe or,
being experimental, to be unsafe by its very nature. Some of
those folks look in the cockpits and see wood, simple materials,
and "no radios?! Don't you have to get permission from the tower?"
and sort of shake their heads.
The other group are the pilots who are shocked to see me set up
an approach and landing to the grass areas off the end of our
paved runway and ask if I do that intentionally or if I goofed
up my landing. I mean, why would anybody purposely land the
airplane on the grass when there is a freshly resurfaced, newly
marked, paved 3000' runway there? You can never explain the
joys of landing on grass to somebody who's never done it.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
"Weed whacker and proud of it"
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
do not archive
Message 6
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Ameet,
Well done, congrats! A win for one builder, is a win for all builders!
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248191#248191
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: "Weed whacker comment" |
Shad,
It has never made any sense to me why more pilots don't learn the
skills to fly tailwheel. It was the first thing I did when I started
my pilot training. It's not hard to learn, but there are often
several obstacles for the would-be tailwheel pilot.
I think the two biggest problems are that tailwheel airplanes are not
always readily available for rental or instruction, and the insurance
requirements for many flight schools that do have them prevent solo
rentals without an expensively prohibitive number of hours in type
(25+ at my local school, which is an hour away).
It looks like the only way left to fly taildraggers is to own one, and
that's a scary proposition for someone with zero tailwheel time. This
is where being involved at your local airport can really pay off.
Being in the social clique with other pilots opens up a lot of doors
to try new airplanes, but sharing goes both ways!
I only hope we can get more tailwheel pilots into the air soon, or all
these old airplanes are going to be relegated to musuems and barns.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 14, 2009, at 11:14 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Pieters, I flew the piet today about 3 hrs, because i was was
> basically bored, with my wife and son out of town, and an unexpected
> day off of work. One airport I stopped at (because I never landed
> there before) a guy came in the office and asked if that was my
> "Weed Whacker out there". With out knowing what he flew in (a
> Cessna 150), I proudly said "Yes it is, doesn't go anywhere fast but
> it's fun". Then he dramatically said "be carefull out there". Had
> I known he flew in , in a Cessna 150, and his teenage son were not
> with him, my comment would have been less polite, due to his
> sarcasim. Maybe something like, "Well when you get done learning
> how to fly that trainer with training wheels, you can learn how to
> fly a weed whacker like mine, and you will learn what those little
> rudder pedal thingies are for". But I just walked out started her
> up and flew off into the horizon. Piets are great, the old timers
> love them, the real pilots admire them and the Cessna "Pilots" are
> scared of them. What has happened to all the real (tail dragger)
> pilots in this crazy world? Seems like the pilots with all the skill
> don't have the money, and the "pilots" with all the money don't have
> any skill, and think just because there airplane goes fast with a
> training wheel, that they are great pilots. I think it's time for a
> test, us go slow, no gps, sectional readers, against the "Where in
> the hell am I at, my GPS failed" pilots". You know where my money is!
>
> Sorry to get on my soap box,
> Shad
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Straight Axle gear questions |
Ok , I have been working on my straight axle gear, but I have a couple of q
uestions. First how much room should I allow between the gear legs and the
brakes for the bungees?- If I remember correctly Jack Phillips said he le
ft 6".--- Also how much travel should I allow for the axle.- What I
'm asking about is the axle locator tube system like Mike Cuy has that keep
s the axle from rotating or sliding from side to side.- How much length s
hould I have?
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
Mark,
If you are considering the steel option and would like to give it a try, see
if you can make it to Oshkosh or Sun-N-fun. You can receive lots of
hands-on welding instruction and practice for just the cost of admission to
the show. They say that the airplane welding techniques can be slightly
different from the way that most non-airplane people weld these days, so be
careful about the instruction that you get from non-airplane people, since
it may or may not be the best way to deal with the 4130 tubes.
In the process of learning about welding, I've found that the term "welding"
is a lot like the term "painting." Some people roll latex paint on a wall
and say that they can paint, but you wouldn't want them to show you how to
paint a car. Both terms apply to a very field of processes, each with
different requirements and outcomes. The EAA has several other great
resources on the members-only website, including a multi-part series of
articles that would be great information for the wood-steel decision
process.
If you are going to decide not to use steel, that's fine, but hopefully your
decision wouldn't be based on a fear of learning to weld! Even if you
aren't comfortable with it now, it will only take a little bit of practice
to change your mind. Several of the people that I've spoken with who are
comfortable with welding say that it is one of the most enjoyable tasks in
the workshop. It challenges your brain just enough to make everything else
disappear. And just think, you'll also be able to weld all of those
fittings, and who knows what else! Just the other day I assembled 3 little
hooks from the dollar tree so that my wife could hang her little butterfly
ornaments in the garden.
Lastly, I would recommend http://www.tinmantech.com/. Kent is a great
resource to the homebuilding community, and he often does forums at Oshkosh
about metalwork. He also sells a very small torch and hose especially for
close-quarters airplane welding. I have one and though I haven't done a
whole fuselage yet, I like it a lot. He also has several videos including a
2-disk volume just about oxy-acetylene welding 4130. I've also read the EAA
welding book and found it to be a great value.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick N.
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse
versions
Mark
Other than to make comments about diet is to add Horsepower. Some of us fly
very well at 1250 lb or more. You will need a 100 hp+ engine for that.
Consider a Corvair, O-200 or similar.
You can build a basic short fuse Piet at 630 lb, that is without brakes or
tail wheel. Add 395lb for pilot and pass and 100 lb fuel and you are still
at 1175 lb.
I had flight tested my A-65 Piet to 1150 lb and it flies fine but not on a
90+ degree day. My 110 hp Piet flies at 1310 lb. but it doesn't like it
much. A better weight is 1250 lb.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Roberts" <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:18 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse
versions
>
> Hi All:
>
> I am looking for a way to increase my useable load for the Piet. Last
> wee I finally discovered (thanks to you nice folks) that the Piet's
> Gross weight is around 1050 lbs, with a useful load after fuel of
> somewhere around 400 or so pounds depending on engine, accessories,
> and whether you got rid of all the diet coke you drank before you took
> off :o)
>
> As I am 250 and 6'4", and my wife is a good looking 145 or so (it's
> true she's good looking to me, but I also figured it's the only way I
> think I'd live through the night if she found out I told her weight to
> the world at large...). I am looking to make sure that the plane will
> be as light as possible so I could CONSIDER taking some form of over
> night bag or a tent to attend Brodhead sometime.
>
> So, I am looking at the steel verse wood option, even though I prefer
> to work with wood, not steel. I don't look forward to cutting or
> welding steel, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do if he
> refuses to exercise (joking here...).
>
> I have no idea what the weight diference really is over all, and if it
> is indeed significant, I have some people ready to help weld that have
> quite a bit of experience. But, hanging my butt in the seat of
> something I welded as my first project is not a reassuring message for
> my wife.
>
> Any thoughts from you bunch would be very much appreciated. Also, what
> are your various empty weights so I have some realistic idea of the
> final over all weights in the real world...
>
> Thanks guys!!
>
> Mark
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: "Weed whacker comment" |
Don't forget that there is a brotherhood of the air. If I walked up to your piet
and said something about it being a "weedwhacker", I would feel that I am joking
among a brotherhood of fellow pilots. It would be said with a smile.
Then again there are some pilots of high dollar planes that don't love aviaition
for the love of flying. They love having a fancy plane. Some have been taught
to be afraid of small planes that started with the not too safe days of the
early ultralights.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
No weedwhacker, Beech 35
----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: "Weed whacker comment"
>
>
> I've gotten some funny looks myself, but those seem to come from
> non-pilots who think the Piet is either so old as to be unsafe or,
> being experimental, to be unsafe by its very nature. Some of
> those folks look in the cockpits and see wood, simple materials,
> and "no radios?! Don't you have to get permission from the tower?"
> and sort of shake their heads.
>
> The other group are the pilots who are shocked to see me set up
> an approach and landing to the grass areas off the end of our
> paved runway and ask if I do that intentionally or if I goofed
> up my landing. I mean, why would anybody purposely land the
> airplane on the grass when there is a freshly resurfaced, newly
> marked, paved 3000' runway there? You can never explain the
> joys of landing on grass to somebody who's never done it.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> "Weed whacker and proud of it"
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Tail wheel flying...... |
Hey Wayne!
I agree with you... I wanted to build and fly a WW1 fighter type.... so, I
decided to build a Pietenpol first! knew I had to learn tail wheel, so I
bought a Cessna 140 to learn to fly in! (and learn tail wheel at the same
time!) I have a pilot friend that flys with me(Fed-Ex pilot & 20+ years
tail wheel exp. (non-instructor)) He has taught me alot so, when I start
taking lessons I should be better off.
When my Piet is finished I will sell the 140. then start on my WW1
Fighter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Wayne
Bressler
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 6:25 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "Weed whacker comment"
Shad,
It has never made any sense to me why more pilots don't learn the skills
to fly tailwheel. It was the first thing I did when I started my pilot
training. It's not hard to learn, but there are often several obstacles for
the would-be tailwheel pilot.
I think the two biggest problems are that tailwheel airplanes are not
always readily available for rental or instruction, and the insurance
requirements for many flight schools that do have them prevent solo rentals
without an expensively prohibitive number of hours in type (25+ at my local
school, which is an hour away).
It looks like the only way left to fly taildraggers is to own one, and
that's a scary proposition for someone with zero tailwheel time. This is
where being involved at your local airport can really pay off. Being in the
social clique with other pilots opens up a lot of doors to try new
airplanes, but sharing goes both ways!
I only hope we can get more tailwheel pilots into the air soon, or all
these old airplanes are going to be relegated to musuems and barns.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 14, 2009, at 11:14 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote:
Pieters, I flew the piet today about 3 hrs, because i was was
basically bored, with my wife and son out of town, and an unexpected day off
of work. One airport I stopped at (because I never landed there before) a
guy came in the office and asked if that was my "Weed Whacker out there".
With out knowing what he flew in (a Cessna 150), I proudly said "Yes it is,
doesn't go anywhere fast but it's fun". Then he dramatically said "be
carefull out there". Had I known he flew in , in a Cessna 150, and his
teenage son were not with him, my comment would have been less polite, due
to his sarcasim. Maybe something like, "Well when you get done learning how
to fly that trainer with training wheels, you can learn how to fly a weed
whacker like mine, and you will learn what those little rudder pedal
thingies are for". But I just walked out started her up and flew off into
the horizon. Piets are great, the old timers love them, the real pilots
admire them and the Cessna "Pilots" are scared of them. What has happened
to all the real (tail dragger) pilots in this crazy world? Seems like the
pilots with all the skill don't have the money, and the "pilots" with all
the money don't have any skill, and think just because there airplane goes
fast with a training wheel, that they are great pilots. I think it's time
for a test, us go slow, no gps, sectional readers, against the "Where in the
hell am I at, my GPS failed" pilots". You know where my money is!
Sorry to get on my soap box,
Shad
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
Hi Charley,
Well, there goes my idea..... I was going to Tack with a small mig welder
then go over the whole fuse with oxy.... seemed the easiest way for me to
fab my fuselage. (without burning up my wood table!)
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rameses32
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
I am a fabricator, I've been welding and working with steel since I was 12,
I love doing it, some people enjoy working with wood and prefer using that,
each has it's benefits. I have better luck using wood in the stove in the
winter time to keep me warm while I weld, hehe. Buzz Bear on the other hand,
made the most beautiful Pietenpol from wood, you just didn't want to cover
it and hide all that fantastic craftsmanship. But that aircraft is still not
in the air, and unfortunately Buzz passed away before he could see it fly.
That wonderful aircraft has been in the building process for over 20 years.
I'm using steel for that reason.
Now if you are going to tack weld, Don't use Gasless mig, EVER! or Ark
welding either. You could use mig, but it's not the best idea. Use either
tig or Oxy to tack the fuselage, Oxy is easier to than Tig, but not alot. If
you weld with oxy, there is less chance for perosity in the welds and you
don't have to normalize when your finished. With tig there is less heat
saturation and less chance of warpage. If I were just tacking, I would use
TIG, but if I was welding, I would use Oxy.
Just my opinion
Charley
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248117#248117
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: "Weed whacker comment" |
Shad,
A far more covert response would have been to smile, nod, and then
quietly whistle or hum the spam song from Monty Python's Spam sketch.
He'd never have got it (spam-can flyer that he is), but you'd have felt
better. :-)
If you've got 3 minutes 19 seconds to waste - the sketch is on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
In other news, I had the pre-purchase inspection completed on N8031 this
past week by a super A&P out in San Luis Obispo (Cody Thompson at
Thompson Air if anyone is looking for someone out there). With the
exception of a few minor items he gave the plane a clean bill of health
and I'm about to call the owner to set up the sale. Then I'll have my
own "weed whacker" to cut the grass with! Color me excited! Maybe
he'll even make it to Brodhead in time if the weather cooperates.
Cheers,
Dan
shad bell wrote:
> Pieters, I flew the piet today about 3 hrs, because i was was basically
> bored, with my wife and son out of town, and an unexpected day off of
> work. One airport I stopped at (because I never landed there before) a
> guy came in the office and asked if that was my "Weed Whacker out
> there". With out knowing what he flew in (a Cessna 150), I proudly said
> "Yes it is, doesn't go anywhere fast but it's fun". Then he
> dramatically said "be carefull out there". Had I known he flew in , in
> a Cessna 150, and his teenage son were not with him, my comment would
> have been less polite, due to his sarcasim. Maybe something like, "Well
> when you get done learning how to fly that trainer with training wheels,
> you can learn how to fly a weed whacker like mine, and you will learn
> what those little rudder pedal thingies are for". But I just walked out
> started her up and flew off into the horizon. Piets are great, the old
> timers love them, the real pilots admire them and the Cessna "Pilots"
> are scared of them. What has happened to all the real (tail dragger)
> pilots in this crazy world? Seems like the pilots with all the skill
> don't have the money, and the "pilots" with all the money don't have any
> skill, and think just because there airplane goes fast with a training
> wheel, that they are great pilots. I think it's time for a test, us go
> slow, no gps, sectional readers, against the "Where in the hell am I at,
> my GPS failed" pilots". You know where my money is!
>
> Sorry to get on my soap box,
> Shad
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
Thanks Jared.
I actually watched the Tin Man's 1st tape (I bought the set of 2
about 4 years ago thinking I was going to start a Pober Jr Ace
project) over the weekend! I feel like some kind of jurist, deciding
the fate of the universe trying to determine if I am going to take the
plunge making a wooden or a steel fuse. Good thing I don't have the
money to start the project or I would have, on 2 different occasions,
ordered materials for both types!
I did spend some time watching a guy weld a fuse for a Legal Eagle,
and he gave me a torch one day and said "Here's how to do it" . I made
a 't' joint and thought it wasn't 'that' tough. However, 'Fear of the
Unknown' is always a deterrent. I'm a pretty good learner, adn fairly
crafty, so I should be able to make a safe fuse. If it was that tough,
I am sure the FAA would have already outlawed it :o)
I wish I could afford both the time and the money to go to Brodhead
this year. We are booked for the summer, as I just had twin daughters
graduate from High School this week, and we are off to a promised trip
to Disneyland during Brodhead. I am promised by my children that I can
ride the Dumbo Elephants for a consolation (they will NEVER ride in MY
airplane for that comment!!).
I am looking at the price for the steel tube needed, and I am thinking
it will be more expensive to build the steel version up front, but the
weight savings might be worth it.
Thanks for the advice! This group is great for pitching in and helping others.
Mark
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Jared Yates<junk@jaredyates.com> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> If you are considering the steel option and would like to give it a try, see
> if you can make it to Oshkosh or Sun-N-fun. You can receive lots of
> hands-on welding instruction and practice for just the cost of admission to
> the show. They say that the airplane welding techniques can be slightly
> different from the way that most non-airplane people weld these days, so be
> careful about the instruction that you get from non-airplane people, since
> it may or may not be the best way to deal with the 4130 tubes.
>
> In the process of learning about welding, I've found that the term "welding"
> is a lot like the term "painting." Some people roll latex paint on a wall
> and say that they can paint, but you wouldn't want them to show you how to
> paint a car. Both terms apply to a very field of processes, each with
> different requirements and outcomes. The EAA has several other great
> resources on the members-only website, including a multi-part series of
> articles that would be great information for the wood-steel decision
> process.
>
> If you are going to decide not to use steel, that's fine, but hopefully your
> decision wouldn't be based on a fear of learning to weld! Even if you
> aren't comfortable with it now, it will only take a little bit of practice
> to change your mind. Several of the people that I've spoken with who are
> comfortable with welding say that it is one of the most enjoyable tasks in
> the workshop. It challenges your brain just enough to make everything else
> disappear. And just think, you'll also be able to weld all of those
> fittings, and who knows what else! Just the other day I assembled 3 little
> hooks from the dollar tree so that my wife could hang her little butterfly
> ornaments in the garden.
>
> Lastly, I would recommend http://www.tinmantech.com/. Kent is a great
> resource to the homebuilding community, and he often does forums at Oshkosh
> about metalwork. He also sells a very small torch and hose especially for
> close-quarters airplane welding. I have one and though I haven't done a
> whole fuselage yet, I like it a lot. He also has several videos including a
> 2-disk volume just about oxy-acetylene welding 4130. I've also read the EAA
> welding book and found it to be a great value.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick N.
> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:37 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse
> versions
>
>
> Mark
> Other than to make comments about diet is to add Horsepower. Some of us fly
>
> very well at 1250 lb or more. You will need a 100 hp+ engine for that.
> Consider a Corvair, O-200 or similar.
> You can build a basic short fuse Piet at 630 lb, that is without brakes or
> tail wheel. Add 395lb for pilot and pass and 100 lb fuel and you are still
> at 1175 lb.
> I had flight tested my A-65 Piet to 1150 lb and it flies fine but not on a
> 90+ degree day. My 110 hp Piet flies at 1310 lb. but it doesn't like it
> much. A better weight is 1250 lb.
> Dick N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Roberts" <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:18 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse
> versions
>
>
>>
>> Hi All:
>>
>> I am looking for a way to increase my useable load for the Piet. Last
>> wee I finally discovered (thanks to you nice folks) that the Piet's
>> Gross weight is around 1050 lbs, with a useful load after fuel of
>> somewhere around 400 or so pounds depending on engine, accessories,
>> and whether you got rid of all the diet coke you drank before you took
>> off :o)
>>
>> As I am 250 and 6'4", and my wife is a good looking 145 or so (it's
>> true she's good looking to me, but I also figured it's the only way I
>> think I'd live through the night if she found out I told her weight to
>> the world at large...). I am looking to make sure that the plane will
>> be as light as possible so I could CONSIDER taking some form of over
>> night bag or a tent to attend Brodhead sometime.
>>
>> So, I am looking at the steel verse wood option, even though I prefer
>> to work with wood, not steel. I don't look forward to cutting or
>> welding steel, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do if he
>> refuses to exercise (joking here...).
>>
>> I have no idea what the weight diference really is over all, and if it
>> is indeed significant, I have some people ready to help weld that have
>> quite a bit of experience. But, hanging my butt in the seat of
>> something I welded as my first project is not a reassuring message for
>> my wife.
>>
>> Any thoughts from you bunch would be very much appreciated. Also, what
>> are your various empty weights so I have some realistic idea of the
>> final over all weights in the real world...
>>
>> Thanks guys!!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
I do that all the time with my small Lincoln mig welder with .030" wire and
argon sheilding gas. Little bitty tack welds to hold the pieces in place
=2C then gas weld right over them. Please explain what the problem is with
that. Ed G.
> From: davea@symbolicdisplays.com
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
> Date: Mon=2C 15 Jun 2009 08:10:51 -0700
>
lays.com>
>
> Hi Charley=2C
>
> Well=2C there goes my idea..... I was going to Tack with a small mig weld
er
> then go over the whole fuse with oxy.... seemed the easiest way for me to
> fab my fuselage. (without burning up my wood table!)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rameses32
> Sent: Sunday=2C June 14=2C 2009 5:31 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
>
>
>
> I am a fabricator=2C I've been welding and working with steel since I was
12=2C
> I love doing it=2C some people enjoy working with wood and prefer using t
hat=2C
> each has it's benefits. I have better luck using wood in the stove in the
> winter time to keep me warm while I weld=2C hehe. Buzz Bear on the other
hand=2C
> made the most beautiful Pietenpol from wood=2C you just didn't want to co
ver
> it and hide all that fantastic craftsmanship. But that aircraft is still
not
> in the air=2C and unfortunately Buzz passed away before he could see it f
ly.
> That wonderful aircraft has been in the building process for over 20 year
s.
> I'm using steel for that reason.
>
> Now if you are going to tack weld=2C Don't use Gasless mig=2C EVER! or Ar
k
> welding either. You could use mig=2C but it's not the best idea. Use eith
er
> tig or Oxy to tack the fuselage=2C Oxy is easier to than Tig=2C but not a
lot. If
> you weld with oxy=2C there is less chance for perosity in the welds and y
ou
> don't have to normalize when your finished. With tig there is less heat
> saturation and less chance of warpage. If I were just tacking=2C I would
use
> TIG=2C but if I was welding=2C I would use Oxy.
>
> Just my opinion
>
> Charley
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248117#248117
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 16
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| Subject: | anybody have contact info for Bill Rewey? |
Anybody have a phone number for Bill Rewey? I think I remember he doesn't
do email, but if I'm wrong, an email address would be great too.
Thanks
Douwe
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: anybody have contact info for Bill Rewey? |
Douwe,
Bill's number should be: 608-833-5839. I think you are right; I don't
believe Bill does email....
Ryan
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Douwe Blumberg <
douweblumberg@earthlink.net> wrote:
> douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>
> Anybody have a phone number for Bill Rewey? I think I remember he doesn't
> do email, but if I'm wrong, an email address would be great too.
>
> Thanks
>
> Douwe
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
Among other comments, Mark Roberts wrote:
> Good thing I don't have the
> money to start the project or I would have, on 2 different occasions,
> ordered materials for both types!
>
> ...
>
> I am looking at the price for the steel tube needed, and I am thinking
> it will be more expensive to build the steel version up front, but the
> weight savings might be worth it.
Remember, the steel-tube Piet was not designed for 4130, but for 1020,
1025, or most likely whatever was available at the local hardware store.
And according to the engineer Mr. Pietenpol had check out his design, it
was way overbuilt for the purpose. Which means that today's structural
ERW is plenty good enough for the purpose. (You can find specs online.
You probably will be surprised at how close the yield strength comes to
4130.) You can get enough of it to weld up a perfectly safe Pietenpol
fuselage for very short money. The only thing I can think of that ERW
would not be suitable for is the axle on the traditional gear. Scrape up
a minimum of cash, and go for it!
Owen
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
Thanks Owen.... But what is ERW? I am not familiar with the term.
Mark
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Owen Davies<owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Among other comments, Mark Roberts wrote:
>>
>> Good thing I don't have the
>> money to start the project or I would have, on 2 different occasions,
>> ordered materials for both types!
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I am looking at the price for the steel tube needed, and I am thinking
>> it will be more expensive to build the steel version up front, but the
>> weight savings might be worth it.
>
> Remember, the steel-tube Piet was not designed for 4130, but for 1020, 1025,
> or most likely whatever was available at the local hardware store. And
> according to the engineer Mr. Pietenpol had check out his design, it was way
> overbuilt for the purpose. Which means that today's structural ERW is plenty
> good enough for the purpose. (You can find specs online. You probably will
> be surprised at how close the yield strength comes to 4130.) You can get
> enough of it to weld up a perfectly safe Pietenpol fuselage for very short
> money. The only thing I can think of that ERW would not be suitable for is
> the axle on the traditional gear. Scrape up a minimum of cash, and go for
> it!
>
> Owen
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Creve Coeur Airport |
I'm in St Louis this week and stopped by the Creve Coeur Airport yesterday.
WOW!! If you ever find yourself in the St Louis area...be sure to stop by!
A lot of antique aircraft and just wonderful atmosphere.
It's always a treat to find a place like this to visit.
JM
Message 21
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I did it this way --
On Jun 8, 2009, at 9:48 PM, Tim Willis wrote:
> >
>
> Thanks, Gardiner. My seat height and general construction are
> fixed. I think the aluminum you suggest would work well. Right now
> I will be fooling around with 1.5mm plywood to get the contour, and
> then fill the gap with marine foam. That will give me simple curves
> in one plane (fore-to-aft), then I am planning hip-hugging right-to-
> left with that stuff they put down around jungle gyms and the like.
> It doesn't give much, and is very light. One piece of that will be
> my only back padding except for some Insulfoam (like football
> shoulder pads) in the lumbar region (where I already have a broken
> vertabra). It should barely fit there and still allow me to slip
> into the plane.
>
> I have fore-to-aft fit problems, as Corky can attest. He made the
> fuxe 3" wider than plans and my elbows fit inside, which the
> standard plans do not allow. Plenty of left-right butt room, too.
>
> For the final padding on top, I got something like the tempufoam
> from Wicks (1", blue foam, as I recall) and that makes an enormous
> difference, but I need more contour first.
>
> If the ply doesn't work for me, I will look into aluminum.
>
> Tim in central TX
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: airlion@bellsouth.net
>> Sent: Jun 8, 2009 11:56 AM
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Something other than cables
>>
>>
>> tim, I used aluminum sheat to give me a little contour. It dropped
>> my seat down about 13/4 inches and is quite comfortable even
>> without a seat pad. I will probably go with tempurfoam 1 inch
>> thick. Gardiner Mason. ps, I will try a seat from auto zone to
>> check the thickness
>> From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
>>>
>> (message edited)
>>
>> Seriously, I am trying to put a little contour in my seat. Right
>> now even with
>> its padding and my far too ample padding, the seat feels less like
>> plywood and
>> more like a concrete block. There is just not a lot of room fore-
>> to-aft to
>>> insert much in the seat back.
>>>
>>> Tim in central TX
>>> do not archive
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Creve Coeur Airport |
Dear Jim,
We're just down the street from there. Creve Coeur Airport is like a living
museum, I do hope you went through the three huge hangers that have the
museum collection, many unique and one of a kind antiques there, they also
take them out and fly them.
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 6/15/2009 12:39:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
jim_markle@mindspring.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle
<jim_markle@mindspring.com>
I'm in St Louis this week and stopped by the Creve Coeur Airport yesterday.
WOW!! If you ever find yourself in the St Louis area...be sure to stop by!
A lot of antique aircraft and just wonderful atmosphere.
It's always a treat to find a place like this to visit.
JM
Message 23
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| Subject: | Creve Coeur Airport |
Hey Chrissi-
Are you and Randi coming to Brodhead again this year?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CozyGirrrl@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Creve Coeur Airport
Dear Jim,
We're just down the street from there. Creve Coeur Airport is like a living
museum, I do hope you went through the three huge hangers that have the
museum collection, many unique and one of a kind antiques there, they also
take them out and fly them.
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 6/15/2009 12:39:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
jim_markle@mindspring.com writes:
I'm in St Louis this week and stopped by the Creve Coeur Airport yesterday.
WOW!! If you ever find yourself in the St Louis area...be sure to stop by!
A lot of antique aircraft and just wonderful atmosphere.
It's always a treat to find a place like this to
===============================================
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Creve Coeur Airport |
Yes Jack, we hope so, Brodhead is too good to miss.
Regards Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
===============================
In a message dated 6/15/2009 1:13:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
pietflyr@bellsouth.net writes:
Hey Chrissi-
Are you and Randi coming to Brodhead again this year?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
____________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CozyGirrrl@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Creve Coeur Airport
Dear Jim,
We're just down the street from there. Creve Coeur Airport is like a
living museum, I do hope you went through the three huge hangers that have the
museum collection, many unique and one of a kind antiques there, they also
take them out and fly them.
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
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Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 6/15/2009 12:39:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
jim_markle@mindspring.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle
<jim_markle@mindspring.com>
I'm in St Louis this week and stopped by the Creve Coeur Airport yesterday.
WOW!! If you ever find yourself in the St Louis area...be sure to stop
by!
A lot of antique aircraft and just wonderful atmosphere.
It's always a treat to find a place like this to ======================
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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| Subject: | A metal vs wood consideration |
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| Subject: | Straight Axle gear questions |
Mike, you are correct that I have 6" clearance between the gear legs and the
brakes, which is adequate for the bungess, but just barely. One suggestion
I can make after 150 hours of flying and several years of operation is to
inlet the landing gear fittings into the wood of the struts if possible to
prevent making a chafe point to snag and chafe the bungees. Changing the
bungess is a pain in the butt, and I have to change mine about every 18
months - not due to the rubber getting loose, but because the fabric cord
has been chafed through and the rubber strands are getting cut by the edge
of the V-Block fittings. Anything you do to make that less of a chafe point
would be good.
I think the guide pins on my axle are about 8" long. I also have a loop of
1/8" stainless cable at each end of the axle as a "Disaster Preventer",
which allows the axle to move about 6" before it is suspended by the cable.
In case the bungees break, this will prevent the wingtip from reaching the
ground. I'll have it at Brodhead and you can check it out for yourself.
Also Mike Cuy's will be there (I just copied his design), so you can see the
original.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:36 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions
Ok , I have been working on my straight axle gear, but I have a couple of
questions. First how much room should I allow between the gear legs and the
brakes for the bungees? If I remember correctly Jack Phillips said he left
6". Also how much travel should I allow for the axle. What I'm asking
about is the axle locator tube system like Mike Cuy has that keeps the axle
from rotating or sliding from side to side. How much length should I have?
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
A couple of points:
1) Like Jack said, there are a lot of metal parts on this old "wooden" airplane,
and, as a result, there is a fair amount of welding required. So, you will either
need to learn how to weld, or find someone qualified to do it for you. Welding
is a handy skill to have, even if you don't build the steel fuselage.
2) Even if you choose to build the steel fuselage, you will find that there id
quite a bit of wood in the "steel" fuselage. The seats are wood, the floor is
wood, the turtledeck is wood, the side stringers are wood, and the instrument
panels are most likely wood. Everyplace there is wood, you will need to fabricate
mounting tabs to attach the wood to the steel. The official Pietenpol plans
for the steel fuselage are a bit "brief", so you will be on your own to figure
out more details than you would with the wood fuselage (not that you won't
have to do any thinking with the wood fuse). For a idea of what a steel fuselage
under construction looks like, take a look at this website:
http://home.att.net/~rdroller/virgilpietFrame1Source1.htm
As you can see, there is a fair amount of wood there.
Ultimately, I think all builders should go with whatever they are more comfortable
with (wood or steel). There apparently is a bit of potential for weight savings
by building with steel, but I doubt that there is any significant time savings
to be had with one over the other. Far more time will be spent on other
components than the basic fuselage structure. It's the fiddly bits that eat up
the time. Assuming a builder felt he could save twenty hours of construction
time (which I doubt) by using one method over the other, that will account for
only one percent of a typical build time. I've already spent more time than
that just sweeping the floor of my garage workshop.
So, Mark, stop fretting, and just go with the method you are most comfortable with
(keeping in the back of your mind that you will probably end up learning to
weld somewhere along the line).
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248311#248311
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
Mark Roberts wrote:
>
> Thanks Owen.... But what is ERW? I am not familiar with the term.
"Electrical resistance welded," or something like that. Welded seam, in
any case, rather than seamless.
In any case, I should have given more detail. Steel tubing gets
complicated when you do your own specifying.
There is ERW carbon mechanical tubing, which is the cheapest stuff you
can get. It tends to be 1020 in wall sizes under .063, 1010 over. Either
way, it is relatively low in strength.
The next step up is DOM, or drawn-over-mandrel. This is basically ERW
mechanical tubing that has been drawn over a mandrel to the exact size
and wall thickness. In the process, the seam gets really hard to find,
and the strength goes way up. DOM tubing tends to be 1020. I suspect it
depends on the manufacturer. Yield strength on normalized 4130 is listed
as 63.1 KSI, with an ultimate tensile strength of 97,200 KSI. DOM 1020
is around 60 KSI yield and 70 KSI ultimate. J-3s, Vagabonds, T-craft,
and Aeroncas all were primarily DOM 1020, with a piece or two of 4130
for the spar carry-through and maybe a bit to absorb the landing-gear
stresses. This stuff tends to be expensive when you get it from Aircraft
Spruce or Wicks, if you still can. From a standard steel supplier, not
so much.
There is one more alternative: structural tubing. Actually, it comes in
a mess of grades, each made to a different specification, and it tends
to come in bigger sizes than we'd use for an airplane. I mention it only
because I got sloppy in the first note and used the term "structural"
instead of "mechanical."
Look for DOM 1020. Wall sizes tend to be one step thicker than you'd
expect in 4130--3/4 x .049 instead of 3/4 x .035, for example--but you
should be able to find what you need. One estimate I saw, from a guy
whose experience I tend to trust, suggested that a fuselage more or less
like that of a Piet should come in around 42 lb if optimized for 4130,
48 lb for DOM. Price for DOM would be half that of 4130 or less.
Owen
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
There are many homebuilts flying made from ERW tubing. I know of two in Victoria
One is a Graham Lee Nieuport 11, and the other is an Early Bird Jenny. They
both are made from 1.2mm wall, ERW. Pete, the guy that built them, did all the
math and structural analysis. I'm building my Pietenpol out of 1.2mm ERW, But
I will pay a 25lb penality for doing so. What you can't do is just swap a .035
4130 tube for a .035 1020 ERW tube. Now if I'm not mistaken werent Cubs and
a few other factory planes originally built with ERW?
CHarley
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248329#248329
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Axle gear questions |
Mike,
Please see the attached. As you might see, I have elongated the "sheath" tube on my "axle locator" tube system into an oval shape. This is to allow a "rocking" motion on the gear, without putting an undo strain on the tube that is welded onto the axle. Please note I have not flown with this set-up. I unashamedly copied it from Simon McCormack from "down under" www.westcoastpiet.com. They look at things from a "different" perspective there, and many times have some superb ideas. Also, have you looked at Chris Tracey's straight axle gear fabrication instructions on the westcoastpiet site?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:36 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions
Ok , I have been working on my straight axle gear, but I have a couple of questions.
First how much room should I allow between the gear legs and the brakes
for the bungees?? If I remember correctly Jack Phillips said he left 6".??? Also
how much travel should I allow for the axle.? What I'm asking about is the
axle locator tube system like Mike Cuy has that keeps the axle from rotating or
sliding from side to side.? How much length should I have?
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
Nothings really wrong with that as long as you keep your tacks small and stress
that you are using argon gas, I was just concerned that someone would see the
word MIG and then go use one of those flux cored wire jobs, now that would make
a horrible mess. Also you are oxy welding after tacking and that is normalizing
the hot spot created by the mig. Another thing to remember is that mig wire
is Hi carbon steel, so it is usually harder than the parent material. But
there are thousands of aircraft mig welded together so it can't be all bad, The
Slepcivich Storch, and I think Rans to name a few. Anyway, I'm not judging anybody,
heck, I'm building my Piet with 1.2mm wall ERW.
Charley
[quote="flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com"]I do that all the time with my small Lincoln
mig welder with .030" wire and argon sheilding gas. Little bitty tack welds to
hold the pieces in place C then gas weld right over them. Please explain what
the problem is with that. Ed G.
> From: davea@symbolicdisplays.com
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear
> Date: Mon C 15 Jun 2009 08:10:51 -0700
>
>
> Hi Charley C
>
> Well C there goes my idea..... I was going to Tack with a small mig welder
> then go over the whole fuse with oxy.... seemed the easiest way for me to
> fab my fuselage. (without burning up my wood table!)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248340#248340
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse |
versions
Opening my yap has gotten me to look up the numbers I'd forgotten. A513
Type 5 DOM carbon steel tube has a yield strength of 72 KSI and ultimate
tensile strength of 87 KSI, and it comes in the standard aircraft sizes.
No idea what the alloy is; as I understand it, the specs cover the
performance, not the composition. Online Metals lists 3/4 x .035 4130 at
about $30 for an 8-foot length. A513 DOM is $10.68 for 8 feet. Custom
lengths are $1.91 for A513 and $5.33 for 4130. I would expect to find
A513 in 20-foot lengths at a local steel supplier for somewhat less
money, with 4130 available only from a specialty house. A Piet fuselage
should take around 200 feet; actually somewhat less, but it's cheaper to
buy the 20-foot lengths than to have them cut to size. Figure something
under $260 for a Piet in A513, plus a bit for the flat sheet.
Owen
Message 33
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| Subject: | Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse |
versions
"...Figure something under $260 for a Piet in A513, plus a bit for the flat
sheet..."
No comment on steel vs. wood, but just a note of comparison...
I bought all the Poplar, locally, for my fuse, tail & ribs + 1/4" & 1/8"
plywood for under $300.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(13 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse
versions
Opening my yap has gotten me to look up the numbers I'd forgotten. A513
Type 5 DOM carbon steel tube has a yield strength of 72 KSI and ultimate
tensile strength of 87 KSI, and it comes in the standard aircraft sizes.
No idea what the alloy is; as I understand it, the specs cover the
performance, not the composition. Online Metals lists 3/4 x .035 4130 at
about $30 for an 8-foot length. A513 DOM is $10.68 for 8 feet. Custom
lengths are $1.91 for A513 and $5.33 for 4130. I would expect to find
A513 in 20-foot lengths at a local steel supplier for somewhat less
money, with 4130 available only from a specialty house. A Piet fuselage
should take around 200 feet; actually somewhat less, but it's cheaper to
buy the 20-foot lengths than to have them cut to size. Figure something
under $260 for a Piet in A513, plus a bit for the flat sheet.
Owen
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
Nice Pictures of Virgil's Plane.
I am beginning to think the way you've described: Stop fretting and
start building.
I will probably do the wings first whilst I ponder my fuse options. As
the fuse presents the challenges of the greatest weight savings, I was
trying to figure the best way to approach it weight wise, but I think
time will tell.
I love construction photos. Thanks again for the link!
Mark
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Bill Church<billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> A couple of points:
> 1) Like Jack said, there are a lot of metal parts on this old "wooden" airplane,
and, as a result, there is a fair amount of welding required. So, you will
either need to learn how to weld, or find someone qualified to do it for you.
Welding is a handy skill to have, even if you don't build the steel fuselage.
> 2) Even if you choose to build the steel fuselage, you will find that there id
quite a bit of wood in the "steel" fuselage. The seats are wood, the floor is
wood, the turtledeck is wood, the side stringers are wood, and the instrument
panels are most likely wood. Everyplace there is wood, you will need to fabricate
mounting tabs to attach the wood to the steel. The official Pietenpol plans
for the steel fuselage are a bit "brief", so you will be on your own to figure
out more details than you would with the wood fuselage (not that you won't
have to do any thinking with the wood fuse). For a idea of what a steel fuselage
under construction looks like, take a look at this website:
>
> http://home.att.net/~rdroller/virgilpietFrame1Source1.htm
>
> As you can see, there is a fair amount of wood there.
>
> Ultimately, I think all builders should go with whatever they are more comfortable
with (wood or steel). There apparently is a bit of potential for weight
savings by building with steel, but I doubt that there is any significant time
savings to be had with one over the other. Far more time will be spent on other
components than the basic fuselage structure. It's the fiddly bits that eat
up the time. Assuming a builder felt he could save twenty hours of construction
time (which I doubt) by using one method over the other, that will account
for only one percent of a typical build time. I've already spent more time than
that just sweeping the floor of my garage workshop.
>
> So, Mark, stop fretting, and just go with the method you are most comfortable
with (keeping in the back of your mind that you will probably end up learning
to weld somewhere along the line).
>
> Bill C.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248311#248311
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
That's very interesting (on both the steel and the poplar options). I
am concerned about the weight mostly, and that is why I am looking at
the trouble (to me, a non-welder) of the steel option in what ever
form. If the other steel option (vs 4130) is as heavy as the wood, I'd
be most likely going with wood, as I am familiar with it and I think I
can work the job a bit more quickly. Even with the speed of welding
tubing over the glue joints, I am not sure I'd be as fast as working
wood just due to my experience with it and the tools involved.
However, with poplar, the weight is heavier than spruce. My problem is
that I am a big guy, and if I was to fly LSA, I need to be under 1320.
With the Piet I need to be around 1100 or so, depending on HP of the
motor.
Thanks for all the advice on this. I am feeling a bit foolish with all
of this, as I am really haggling with myself over about 100 pounds
total. Still, if this sweetie would lift closer to 1300 pounds safely,
I'd not be worried :o)
Thus, my furrowed brow and contemplative spirit... :o)
Mark
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Gary Boothe<gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> "...Figure something under $260 for a Piet in A513, plus a bit for the flat
> sheet..."
>
> No comment on steel vs. wood, but just a note of comparison...
>
> I bought all the Poplar, locally, for my fuse, tail & ribs + 1/4" & 1/8"
> plywood for under $300.
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> (13 ribs down.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:26 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse
> versions
>
>
> Opening my yap has gotten me to look up the numbers I'd forgotten. A513
> Type 5 DOM carbon steel tube has a yield strength of 72 KSI and ultimate
> tensile strength of 87 KSI, and it comes in the standard aircraft sizes.
> No idea what the alloy is; as I understand it, the specs cover the
> performance, not the composition. Online Metals lists 3/4 x .035 4130 at
> about $30 for an 8-foot length. A513 DOM is $10.68 for 8 feet. Custom
> lengths are $1.91 for A513 and $5.33 for 4130. I would expect to find
> A513 in 20-foot lengths at a local steel supplier for somewhat less
> money, with 4130 available only from a specialty house. A Piet fuselage
> should take around 200 feet; actually somewhat less, but it's cheaper to
> buy the 20-foot lengths than to have them cut to size. Figure something
> under $260 for a Piet in A513, plus a bit for the flat sheet.
>
> Owen
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse versions |
Mark,
I've got the Pfeifer Sport, which is essentially a steel tube, wood wing
Corvair powered Pietenpol variant. The empty weight before I repainted
it was 598 pounds, so I think a steel tube Piet would come out a bit
lighter.
Good luck on the project.
Darrel Jones
Sonoma, CA
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Creve Coeur Airport |
I hope folks wear name tags so I can put faces to the posts.
Darrel Jones
Pfeifer Sport
Sonoma, CA
CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:
> Yes Jack, we hope so, Brodhead is too good to miss.
> Regards Chrissi & Randi
>
> CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
> www.CozyGirrrl.com
> Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
> Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
> ==============================
>
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| Subject: | Re: Weight differences between Wood and steel fuse |
versions
Gary Boothe wrote:
> I bought all the Poplar, locally, for my fuse, tail & ribs + 1/4" & 1/8"
> plywood for under $300.
Not bad at all! The A513 is a bargain only if you would otherwise be
ordering 4130 or certified spruce. Though poplar brings the weight up
and probably tips that advantage back to steel, even if you are not
using 4130.
Note that the estimate of 48 lb for mild steel vs. 43 lb for 4130 in a
"Pietenpol-like" airplane assumed the 4130 version used a bunch of
different tube sizes to optimize the strength-to-weight ratio. For
something like a Pietenpol, which is about as far from optimized as you
can get, the difference would be even smaller.
Owen
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| Subject: | Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear |
For a steel airplane there sure seems to be a lot of wood in it!
Just to paraphrase an old Pietenpol lament. :-)
Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.
Clif
I still can't! :-)
"Great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things
brought together." ~ Vincent Van Gogh
>
> Thats great time, I know it would take me alot longer than that to do in
> wood, I figure the wing is going to be a big enough challenge in wood for
> me. For some reason I feel like Dr Frankenstien.
> CHaRlEy
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