Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:23 AM - Arkansas fly-in (Lawrence Williams)
2. 10:14 AM - (no subject) (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
3. 10:54 AM - Doug Fir as a substitute (Mark Roberts)
4. 11:20 AM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Jim)
5. 11:27 AM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (helspersew@aol.com)
6. 11:38 AM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com)
7. 11:58 AM - Re: Had a great time in your backyard (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
8. 12:24 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Bill Church)
9. 03:02 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Gary Boothe)
10. 03:05 PM - Re: (no subject) (Gary Boothe)
11. 04:41 PM - Re: Had a great time in your backyard (K5YAC)
12. 05:10 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute ()
13. 05:47 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (amsafetyc@aol.com)
14. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Had a great time in your backyard (amsafetyc@aol.com)
15. 06:36 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Owen Davies)
16. 07:09 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Wayne Bressler)
17. 07:09 PM - cowling paint (Douwe Blumberg)
18. 08:23 PM - Re: Had a great time in your backyard (K5YAC)
19. 08:34 PM - Re: cowling paint (shad bell)
20. 08:49 PM - Re: Straight Axle gear questions (Michael Groah)
21. 10:41 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Mark Roberts)
22. 10:50 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Well........ a lot of you missed a good time this past week-end.
-
Friday evening we had a front come ripping through which probably cancelled
the plans for those who were coming from farther out. Nevertheless, we did
have a barbecue dinner that was pretty well attended after the front.
-
Saturday was spectacular! Cool, windless and cavu. We had Pietenpol pilots
and enthusiasts from Kentucky, Texas, and Arkansas. Stearman, Pietenpol, Cu
b, taildragger Cessna, RV, and Pacer aircraft were represented, pancakes we
re consumed and there was enough BBQ left from the previous evening-for a
lunch-to be-served. Some rides were given and a lot of hangar flying w
as done with a background of "Those Magnificent Men" and "Waldo Pepper" on
a big, big screen in the corner. I didn't see one non-smiling face the whol
e week-end! Commemorative patches were handed out to those who flew in.
-
Next year should be bigger and better f the weather will cooperate. Those o
f you within striking distance of LIT should mark your calendar for the sec
ond week-end in June.
-
Next stop: Brodhead!!
-
Larry W.=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Gary,
I think you're really going to enjoy working with poplar and the price is
always good.
John
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
eExcfooterNO62)
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Doug Fir as a substitute |
First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
Light = better for me :o)
However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
plane. Well (sigh).
So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
to equal the strength component of the spruce.
Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the
plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
for my long frame.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
details before the build.
(As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
as I set up for final... :o)
Mark
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
Hi Mark,
My Piet is being built out of Doug Fir. I have just a few comments; first off the
wood is only a small part of the weigh of the plane. The landing gear alone
will be as heavy as the fuselage itself. Thats not counting all the steel fittings
of which there are over 140 ( I quit counting at 140) and they are the same
regardless of type of wood and even if you build a steel tube fuselage it
will have to have all sorts of tabs welded on to mount all the miscellaneous
parts like elevator bellcrank, control sticks, rudder bar/pedals, etc.
The best goal is not to add extra/un-needed things like lights, starter, big battery,
instruments in front pit; instruments like VSI, etc in the back pit.
Someone on this net said; "build light and simplicate."
Cheers,
Jim
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
On Jun 16, 2009, mark.rbrts1@gmail.com wrote:
First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
Light = better for me :o)
However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
plane. Well (sigh).
So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
to equal the strength component of the spruce.
Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the
plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
for my long frame.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
details before the build.
(As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
as I set up for final... :o)
Mark
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
Mark,
Two years ago at Brodhead I made a point of close inspection of the "Last Original"
BHP-built Aircamper. Bernard used 7/8" x 7/8" spruce for the fuselage longerons.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 12:13 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute
First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
Light = better for me :o)
However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
plane. Well (sigh).
So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
to equal the strength component of the spruce.
Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
for and get over the weight difference. I am
re-drawing / modeling the
plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
for my long frame.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
details before the build.
(As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
as I set up for final... :o)
Mark
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
Mark
I don't weight in very often, but I wanted to give my thoughts on this
subject.
I have a rare condition which my wife coined chronic tightassitis, with
complications of overthinkitis. what this means is that I have looked
over Doug fir in detail.
I even laid out the numbers in a spreadsheet, and modeled the parts in Pro
Engineer to check size reductions.
what I discovered is that you can reduce the longerons by about a 16th of
an inch if memory serves me and still be above the Stats and strengths of
spruce while at the same time reducing the weight and offsetting some of
the weight penalty. with that said the only number of Douglas fir that is
less than Spruce is the Modulus of Elasticity (again if memory serves) and
unless you plan on fatigue testing your piet, with aerobatics that number
should never come into play, if you have a tendency to smack into hard
things remember that Doug fir won't bend as far as spruce before it
cracks.
My ribs are all out of Doug Fir that is 12-14 growth rings per inch with a
runout of less than 1 inch in 60, cut from a 12 foot 4x4 purchased at
Menards for 12.95 I believe.
Just my thoughts,
Jake
Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
06/16/2009 12:13 PM
Please respond to
pietenpol-list@matronics.com
To
pietenpol-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute
First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
Light = better for me :o)
However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
plane. Well (sigh).
So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
to equal the strength component of the spruce.
Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the
plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
for my long frame.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
details before the build.
(As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
as I set up for final... :o)
Mark
________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL
abs Email Security System.
________________________________________________________________________
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Had a great time in your backyard |
In the pleasant weather of Oklahoma I got a chance to meet with Mark at his
Hangar at Grundys Airport. he's got a great shop, not to mention a more
then ample supply of beverage on hand. We had some burgers and brew, talked a
bunch of Piet and attended the EAA chapter 10 meeting on the field. I had
a great time enjoyed every bit of it met his family enjoyed every bit of it
and you missed out, ha ha,hahaha
John
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
eExcfooterNO62)
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Doug Fir as a substitute |
Mark,
The choice is yours.
Successful planes have been built from both wood types.
Do your research, and make your choice.
Strength calculations are based on a number of physical properties of
the material, in combination with the shape and size of the members, and
the manner in which the member is loaded. It's not always as simple as
one might think. There is no simple rule to follow.
If you aren't comfortable doing the calculations yourself, then just
stick with what's called for in the plans.
My preference: Spruce - it's just way nicer to work with, regardless of
strength/weight.
And, by the way, if you can manage to build your entire airplane in four
years, you'll be doing pretty good. That would average out to about 10
hours per week, every week, of actual build time. Thinking time not
included. We all seem to have similar goals when we start out, and then
before we know it, a year has passed, and we might have a stack of ribs
to show for it, then a few more years go by, and we don't seem to be
anywhere near the finish line. The only way to get a Piet built is to
work on it. If you can manage to spend one hour per day actually making
parts, you will make progress. Nothing gets built while we're on the
computer, or sitting in front of the boob tube.
As for redrawing the plane, it MIGHT help you to discover some things
about the project, but it will pale in comparison to the results you'll
get by cutting and gluing some wood (and metal).
Like the commercial says, Just Do It.
Bill C.
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Doug Fir as a substitute |
Mark,
Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal
feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK)
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(13 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute
First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
Light = better for me :o)
However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
plane. Well (sigh).
So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
to equal the strength component of the spruce.
Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the
plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
for my long frame.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
details before the build.
(As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
as I set up for final... :o)
Mark
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
John,
You are right! This was my first experience with poplar and I found it very
enjoyable to work with. The fuse is done, as are the tail components and
some of the ribs.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(13 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AMsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:00 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: (no subject)
Gary,
I think you're really going to enjoy working with poplar and the price is
always good.
John
_____
An Excellent Credit Score
is681/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26
hmpgID=62%26bcd=JuneExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Had a great time in your backyard |
Pleasant weather is an understatement... uh, kind of... it was 90+ degrees and
>100% humidity. Ha ha! Oh well... that is what the cold brew is for.
Sure glad you could make it out John... it was nice to meet you and share stories.
There were two things I meant to do while you were here that I totally forgot...
1. Get a picture... I brought the camera but forgot to get it out. 2.
Show you the pilot lounge... it is cool, literally, which would have been nice
to step into for a few minutes. The floor has a huge blow up of the Tulsa area
from the KC sectional on the floor. Maybe next time I guess.
Glad you had a good time. See you at Brodhead.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248569#248569
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Doug Fir as a substitute |
That list reminds me you don't hear of anyone making a plane of Pine and not too
many of Poplar even though those are the ones most commonly available. I wonder
what the weight penalty would be using pine and compensating for the strength?
Anyone ever heard of someone making a plane from Pine?
Rodney
---- Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal
> feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK)
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> (13 ribs down.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:13 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute
>
>
> First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
> with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
> realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
> thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
> building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
> Light = better for me :o)
>
> However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
> re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
> second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
> spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
> but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
>
> Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
> things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
> for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
> another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
> impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
> and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
> fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
> he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
> plane. Well (sigh).
>
> So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
> posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
> equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
> a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
> x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
> strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
> to equal the strength component of the spruce.
>
> Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
>
> The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
> this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
> for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the
> plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
> I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
> all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
> with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
> as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
> for my long frame.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
> 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
> details before the build.
>
> (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
> is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
> just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
> on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
> of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
> as I set up for final... :o)
>
> Mark
>
>
>
Message 13
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
I am doing it in poplar as are others. As far as a rarity I am not too certain
I agree with that part of your assessment.
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: <r.r.hall@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute
That list reminds me you don't hear of anyone making a plane of Pine and not too
many of Poplar even though those are the ones most commonly available. I wonder
what the weight penalty would be using pine and compensating for the strength?
Anyone ever heard of someone making a plane from Pine?
Rodney
---- Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal
> feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK)
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> (13 ribs down.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:13 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute
>
>
> First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown
> with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I
> realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over
> thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on
> building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results.
> Light = better for me :o)
>
> However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am
> re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the
> second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for
> spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything
> but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons.
>
> Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic
> things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here
> for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and
> another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have
> impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics
> and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane
> fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that
> he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the
> plane. Well (sigh).
>
> So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other
> posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the
> equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there
> a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1"
> x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent
> strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to
> to equal the strength component of the spruce.
>
> Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this?
>
> The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for
> this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called
> for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the
> plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things
> I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till
> all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies
> with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway
> as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches
> for my long frame.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle
> 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the
> details before the build.
>
> (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this
> is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I
> just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000
> on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off
> of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses
> as I set up for final... :o)
>
> Mark
>
>
>
Message 14
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Had a great time in your backyard |
Mark
Thanks again. Next thing you'll have to do is to get a copy of TGWP and watch it
until you can quote lines.
"It has been very nice to have met you Mr Brown"
At any rate, except for seeing Markles project progress on occasion Jim and I should
visit you when ever possible.
John
------Original Message------
From: Mark Chunard
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board
Sent: Jun 16, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Had a great time in your backyard
Pleasant weather is an understatement... uh, kind of... it was 90+ degrees and
>100% humidity. Ha ha! Oh well... that is what the cold brew is for.
Sure glad you could make it out John... it was nice to meet you and share stories.
There were two things I meant to do while you were here that I totally forgot...
1. Get a picture... I brought the camera but forgot to get it out. 2.
Show you the pilot lounge... it is cool, literally, which would have been nice
to step into for a few minutes. The floor has a huge blow up of the Tulsa area
from the KC sectional on the floor. Maybe next time I guess.
Glad you had a good time. See you at Brodhead.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248569#248569
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message 15
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
>
> That list reminds me you don't hear of anyone making a plane of Pine and not
too many of Poplar even though those are the ones most commonly available. I
wonder what the weight penalty would be using pine and compensating for the strength?
Anyone ever heard of someone making a plane from Pine?
Last I knew, the MiniMax ultralights were kitted in pine. Don't know of
any heavier aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they weren't reasonably
common.
Owen
Message 16
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
That sounds like rumor to me... I would have a hard time believing
the Mini-Max was ever kitted in pine.
Might want to do some digging before I believe that.
I have a Mini-Max fin kit, and it is definitely not pine. It's a new
kit (2008).
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 16, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
>>
> Last I knew, the MiniMax ultralights were kitted in pine. Don't know
> of any heavier aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they weren't
> reasonably common.
>
> Owen
>
>
Message 17
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hello all,
Did you guys paint the inside of your cowling or leave it bare?
Douwe
Message 18
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Had a great time in your backyard |
I've got a copy of TGWP, I just need to watch it several more times.
As for you and Jim... there is a frosty mug waiting whenever you feel like stopping
by.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248627#248627
Message 19
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: cowling paint |
Dowe, we used etch primer on all aluminum.- We painted color, top coat in
dupont centari auto enamal.- The insides of all alum. we left in primer
(O.D. Green).- It's holding up so far.- Epoxy primer would also hold up
very well with out top coat.
-
Shad=0A=0A=0A
Message 20
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Straight Axle gear questions |
Thank you for the help, both Jack and Dan.- Yes Dan I've read the gear co
nstruction write up that Chris did on westcoastpiet.com.- I chose to do m
ine differently (right side up), but still got the job done.- Thanks for
the tips.- I'll get to work on the axle part soon.- Hopefully you can s
ee the attached pic of what I have done thus far.-
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
--- On Mon, 6/15/09, helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
From: helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions
Mike,
=0A
=0APlease see the attached. As you might see, I have elongated the "sheath"
tube on my "axle locator" tube system into an oval shape. This is to allow
a "rocking" motion on the gear, without putting an undo strain on the tube
that is welded onto the axle. Please note I have not flown with this set-u
p. I unashamedly copied it from Simon McCormack from "down under" www.westc
oastpiet.com. They look at things from a "different" perspective there, and
many times have some superb ideas. Also, have you looked at Chris Tracey's
straight axle gear fabrication instructions on the westcoastpiet site?
=0A
=0ADan Helsper
=0APoplar Grove, IL
=0A
=0A
=0A-----Original Message-----
=0AFrom: Michael Groah <dskogrover@yahoo.com>
=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:36 am
=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0AOk , I have been working on my straight axle gear, but I have a couple o
f questions. First how much room should I allow between the gear legs and t
he brakes for the bungees?- If I remember correctly Jack Phillips said he
left 6".--- Also how much travel should I allow for the axle.- Wha
t I'm asking about is the axle locator tube system like Mike Cuy has that k
eeps the axle from rotating or sliding from side to side.- How much lengt
h should I have?
=0A
=0A
=0AMike Groah
=0ATulare CA
=0A
=0A
=0A
Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. =0A=0A
=0A=0A
Message 21
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
Fellers, I can't thank you enough for your feedback. I have a very
good friend here in town that works alot in wood, and he can rip out
stock on his bandsaw like no one's business. We actually made a set of
Cradles together back when my wife and I discovered we were pregnant
with twins (the one's that just graduated from High School last week!!
Man, was that just 18 years ago??! I need a beer...)
Along with the pondering over my navel lint I have thought of little
else lately thna this project. If the guy pays me for the Dragonfly
plans like he's suppose to (2 weeks later....) I am ordering plans
Friday, and I will most likely settle down.
But, I'm very grateful I am NOT the only one with "chronic
tightassitis, with complications of overthinkitis" (I'm using that one
for myself now) ... as this project can't cost me much at the
beginning. I am also encouraged to know BHP made the last one out of
Doug fir. Helps to know he believed in it too, if not for nostalgia
sake :o)
Thanks again guys. Really appreciate the help.
Mark
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Wayne
Bressler<wayne@taildraggersinc.com> wrote:
> <wayne@taildraggersinc.com>
>
> That sounds like rumor to me... I would have a hard time believing the
> Mini-Max was ever kitted in pine.
>
> Might want to do some digging before I believe that.
>
> I have a Mini-Max fin kit, and it is definitely not pine. It's a new kit
> (2008).
>
> Wayne Bressler Jr.
> Taildraggers, Inc.
> taildraggersinc.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 16, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>> Last I knew, the MiniMax ultralights were kitted in pine. Don't know of
>> any heavier aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they weren't reasonably
>> common.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Doug Fir as a substitute |
Go here and scroll down. There's a chart of wood strengths.
http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html
> Mark,
>
> Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal
> feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK)
>
> Gary Boothe
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|