---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/16/09: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:23 AM - Arkansas fly-in (Lawrence Williams) 2. 10:14 AM - (no subject) (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 3. 10:54 AM - Doug Fir as a substitute (Mark Roberts) 4. 11:20 AM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Jim) 5. 11:27 AM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (helspersew@aol.com) 6. 11:38 AM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com) 7. 11:58 AM - Re: Had a great time in your backyard (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 8. 12:24 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Bill Church) 9. 03:02 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Gary Boothe) 10. 03:05 PM - Re: (no subject) (Gary Boothe) 11. 04:41 PM - Re: Had a great time in your backyard (K5YAC) 12. 05:10 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute () 13. 05:47 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (amsafetyc@aol.com) 14. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Had a great time in your backyard (amsafetyc@aol.com) 15. 06:36 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Owen Davies) 16. 07:09 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Wayne Bressler) 17. 07:09 PM - cowling paint (Douwe Blumberg) 18. 08:23 PM - Re: Had a great time in your backyard (K5YAC) 19. 08:34 PM - Re: cowling paint (shad bell) 20. 08:49 PM - Re: Straight Axle gear questions (Michael Groah) 21. 10:41 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Mark Roberts) 22. 10:50 PM - Re: Doug Fir as a substitute (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:44 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Arkansas fly-in Well........ a lot of you missed a good time this past week-end. - Friday evening we had a front come ripping through which probably cancelled the plans for those who were coming from farther out. Nevertheless, we did have a barbecue dinner that was pretty well attended after the front. - Saturday was spectacular! Cool, windless and cavu. We had Pietenpol pilots and enthusiasts from Kentucky, Texas, and Arkansas. Stearman, Pietenpol, Cu b, taildragger Cessna, RV, and Pacer aircraft were represented, pancakes we re consumed and there was enough BBQ left from the previous evening-for a lunch-to be-served. Some rides were given and a lot of hangar flying w as done with a background of "Those Magnificent Men" and "Waldo Pepper" on a big, big screen in the corner. I didn't see one non-smiling face the whol e week-end! Commemorative patches were handed out to those who flew in. - Next year should be bigger and better f the weather will cooperate. Those o f you within striking distance of LIT should mark your calendar for the sec ond week-end in June. - Next stop: Brodhead!! - Larry W.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:16 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: (no subject) Gary, I think you're really going to enjoy working with poplar and the price is always good. John **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! eExcfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:39 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute From: Mark Roberts First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. Light = better for me :o) However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the plane. Well (sigh). So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to to equal the strength component of the spruce. Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches for my long frame. Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the details before the build. (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses as I set up for final... :o) Mark ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:39 AM PST US From: Jim Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute Hi Mark, My Piet is being built out of Doug Fir. I have just a few comments; first off the wood is only a small part of the weigh of the plane. The landing gear alone will be as heavy as the fuselage itself. Thats not counting all the steel fittings of which there are over 140 ( I quit counting at 140) and they are the same regardless of type of wood and even if you build a steel tube fuselage it will have to have all sorts of tabs welded on to mount all the miscellaneous parts like elevator bellcrank, control sticks, rudder bar/pedals, etc. The best goal is not to add extra/un-needed things like lights, starter, big battery, instruments in front pit; instruments like VSI, etc in the back pit. Someone on this net said; "build light and simplicate." Cheers, Jim Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA On Jun 16, 2009, mark.rbrts1@gmail.com wrote: First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. Light = better for me :o) However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the plane. Well (sigh). So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to to equal the strength component of the spruce. Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches for my long frame. Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the details before the build. (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses as I set up for final... :o) Mark ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute From: helspersew@aol.com Mark, Two years ago at Brodhead I made a point of close inspection of the "Last Original" BHP-built Aircamper. Bernard used 7/8" x 7/8" spruce for the fuselage longerons. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Mark Roberts Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 12:13 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. Light = better for me :o) However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the plane. Well (sigh). So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to to equal the strength component of the spruce. Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches for my long frame. Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the details before the build. (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses as I set up for final... :o) Mark ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute From: jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com Mark I don't weight in very often, but I wanted to give my thoughts on this subject. I have a rare condition which my wife coined chronic tightassitis, with complications of overthinkitis. what this means is that I have looked over Doug fir in detail. I even laid out the numbers in a spreadsheet, and modeled the parts in Pro Engineer to check size reductions. what I discovered is that you can reduce the longerons by about a 16th of an inch if memory serves me and still be above the Stats and strengths of spruce while at the same time reducing the weight and offsetting some of the weight penalty. with that said the only number of Douglas fir that is less than Spruce is the Modulus of Elasticity (again if memory serves) and unless you plan on fatigue testing your piet, with aerobatics that number should never come into play, if you have a tendency to smack into hard things remember that Doug fir won't bend as far as spruce before it cracks. My ribs are all out of Doug Fir that is 12-14 growth rings per inch with a runout of less than 1 inch in 60, cut from a 12 foot 4x4 purchased at Menards for 12.95 I believe. Just my thoughts, Jake Mark Roberts Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com 06/16/2009 12:13 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@matronics.com To pietenpol-list@matronics.com cc Subject Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. Light = better for me :o) However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the plane. Well (sigh). So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to to equal the strength component of the spruce. Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches for my long frame. Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the details before the build. (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses as I set up for final... :o) Mark ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL abs Email Security System. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:40 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Had a great time in your backyard In the pleasant weather of Oklahoma I got a chance to meet with Mark at his Hangar at Grundys Airport. he's got a great shop, not to mention a more then ample supply of beverage on hand. We had some burgers and brew, talked a bunch of Piet and attended the EAA chapter 10 meeting on the field. I had a great time enjoyed every bit of it met his family enjoyed every bit of it and you missed out, ha ha,hahaha John **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! eExcfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute From: "Bill Church" Mark, The choice is yours. Successful planes have been built from both wood types. Do your research, and make your choice. Strength calculations are based on a number of physical properties of the material, in combination with the shape and size of the members, and the manner in which the member is loaded. It's not always as simple as one might think. There is no simple rule to follow. If you aren't comfortable doing the calculations yourself, then just stick with what's called for in the plans. My preference: Spruce - it's just way nicer to work with, regardless of strength/weight. And, by the way, if you can manage to build your entire airplane in four years, you'll be doing pretty good. That would average out to about 10 hours per week, every week, of actual build time. Thinking time not included. We all seem to have similar goals when we start out, and then before we know it, a year has passed, and we might have a stack of ribs to show for it, then a few more years go by, and we don't seem to be anywhere near the finish line. The only way to get a Piet built is to work on it. If you can manage to spend one hour per day actually making parts, you will make progress. Nothing gets built while we're on the computer, or sitting in front of the boob tube. As for redrawing the plane, it MIGHT help you to discover some things about the project, but it will pale in comparison to the results you'll get by cutting and gluing some wood (and metal). Like the commercial says, Just Do It. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:24 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute Mark, Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK) Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. Light = better for me :o) However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the plane. Well (sigh). So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to to equal the strength component of the spruce. Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches for my long frame. Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the details before the build. (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses as I set up for final... :o) Mark ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:30 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: (no subject) John, You are right! This was my first experience with poplar and I found it very enjoyable to work with. The fuse is done, as are the tail components and some of the ribs. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: (no subject) Gary, I think you're really going to enjoy working with poplar and the price is always good. John _____ An Excellent Credit Score is681/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26 hmpgID=62%26bcd=JuneExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:16 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Had a great time in your backyard From: "K5YAC" Pleasant weather is an understatement... uh, kind of... it was 90+ degrees and >100% humidity. Ha ha! Oh well... that is what the cold brew is for. Sure glad you could make it out John... it was nice to meet you and share stories. There were two things I meant to do while you were here that I totally forgot... 1. Get a picture... I brought the camera but forgot to get it out. 2. Show you the pilot lounge... it is cool, literally, which would have been nice to step into for a few minutes. The floor has a huge blow up of the Tulsa area from the KC sectional on the floor. Maybe next time I guess. Glad you had a good time. See you at Brodhead. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248569#248569 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:03 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute That list reminds me you don't hear of anyone making a plane of Pine and not too many of Poplar even though those are the ones most commonly available. I wonder what the weight penalty would be using pine and compensating for the strength? Anyone ever heard of someone making a plane from Pine? Rodney ---- Gary Boothe wrote: > Mark, > > Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal > feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK) > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:13 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute > > > First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown > with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I > realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over > thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on > building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. > Light = better for me :o) > > However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am > re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the > second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for > spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything > but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. > > Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic > things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here > for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and > another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have > impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics > and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane > fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that > he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the > plane. Well (sigh). > > So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other > posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the > equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there > a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" > x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent > strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to > to equal the strength component of the spruce. > > Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? > > The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for > this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called > for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the > plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things > I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till > all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies > with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway > as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches > for my long frame. > > Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle > 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the > details before the build. > > (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this > is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I > just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 > on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off > of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses > as I set up for final... :o) > > Mark > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute From: amsafetyc@aol.com I am doing it in poplar as are others. As far as a rarity I am not too certain I agree with that part of your assessment. John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute That list reminds me you don't hear of anyone making a plane of Pine and not too many of Poplar even though those are the ones most commonly available. I wonder what the weight penalty would be using pine and compensating for the strength? Anyone ever heard of someone making a plane from Pine? Rodney ---- Gary Boothe wrote: > Mark, > > Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal > feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK) > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:13 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute > > > First, I would like to thank everyone for the patience you've shown > with my deliberations over the choice of wood or steel for the fuse. I > realize after looking at my posts that some of it might have been over > thinking the issue, but if I am spending 4 years (I hope less) on > building something, I want to make sure I am happy with the results. > Light = better for me :o) > > However, looking at Doug Fir as an alternative to spruce... I am > re-reading the EAA book on wood, and it struck me as funny that the > second article in the book was about using Fir as a substitute for > spruce. One of the next articles in the book was NOT to use anything > but spruce for critical members such as Fuse longerons. > > Now, some reason need to be applied here, as everyone has a few basic > things in common: Body orifices and opinions (phrase cleaned up here > for general consumption...). I get that one guy says never use fir and > another says it's OK. The funny thing is, is both seemed to have > impressive credentials. The one praising fir was a Dr. of aeronautics > and involved in sailplanes and the other was Mr. Evans of Volksplane > fame. He said after reading about compression fractures in wood, that > he went back to recommending only spruce for structural members of the > plane. Well (sigh). > > So, I am thinking, weight not withstanding (remember all of my other > posts wringing my hands about steel over wood??), what would be the > equivalent size in fir to equal the same strength in spruce? Is there > a rule of thumb? For instance, if I were to order from ACS or Wicks 1" > x 1" capstrip spruce for the fuse construction, would the equivalent > strength size be say, 3/4" square? What could the fir be pared down to > to equal the strength component of the spruce. > > Has anyone ever seen a comparison such as this? > > The first mentioned author said 'nuts' to the changing of sizes for > this type of substitution, and said just use the regular size called > for and get over the weight difference. I am re-drawing / modeling the > plane in stages in Sketch up 7 to determine all of the little things > I'll encounter in the real build (a way of scratching the itch till > all the money is there...) and I could work out the inconsistencies > with the plans size changes then. I'm going to have to do this anyway > as my height will warrant the deepening of the fuse a couple of inches > for my long frame. > > Thanks for the feedback. I hope the posts don't seem like idle > 'excitement' chatter, as I am trying to wrap my head around the > details before the build. > > (As an aside, the more I am reading, the more I am understanding this > is a normal phenomenon amongst homebuilders of the first go 'round. I > just feel excessive in the ponderings. Job? What job.... I'm at 5000 > on a nice summer evening looking down on wafts of smoke billowing off > of an agriculture burn, and seeing the lights pop on in little houses > as I set up for final... :o) > > Mark > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Had a great time in your backyard From: amsafetyc@aol.com Mark Thanks again. Next thing you'll have to do is to get a copy of TGWP and watch it until you can quote lines. "It has been very nice to have met you Mr Brown" At any rate, except for seeing Markles project progress on occasion Jim and I should visit you when ever possible. John ------Original Message------ From: Mark Chunard Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Jun 16, 2009 7:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Had a great time in your backyard Pleasant weather is an understatement... uh, kind of... it was 90+ degrees and >100% humidity. Ha ha! Oh well... that is what the cold brew is for. Sure glad you could make it out John... it was nice to meet you and share stories. There were two things I meant to do while you were here that I totally forgot... 1. Get a picture... I brought the camera but forgot to get it out. 2. Show you the pilot lounge... it is cool, literally, which would have been nice to step into for a few minutes. The floor has a huge blow up of the Tulsa area from the KC sectional on the floor. Maybe next time I guess. Glad you had a good time. See you at Brodhead. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248569#248569 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:00 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute > > That list reminds me you don't hear of anyone making a plane of Pine and not too many of Poplar even though those are the ones most commonly available. I wonder what the weight penalty would be using pine and compensating for the strength? Anyone ever heard of someone making a plane from Pine? Last I knew, the MiniMax ultralights were kitted in pine. Don't know of any heavier aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they weren't reasonably common. Owen ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:28 PM PST US From: Wayne Bressler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute That sounds like rumor to me... I would have a hard time believing the Mini-Max was ever kitted in pine. Might want to do some digging before I believe that. I have a Mini-Max fin kit, and it is definitely not pine. It's a new kit (2008). Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com Sent from my iPhone On Jun 16, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Owen Davies wrote: > > >> > Last I knew, the MiniMax ultralights were kitted in pine. Don't know > of any heavier aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they weren't > reasonably common. > > Owen > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:28 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: cowling paint Hello all, Did you guys paint the inside of your cowling or leave it bare? Douwe ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Had a great time in your backyard From: "K5YAC" I've got a copy of TGWP, I just need to watch it several more times. As for you and Jim... there is a frosty mug waiting whenever you feel like stopping by. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248627#248627 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:10 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cowling paint Dowe, we used etch primer on all aluminum.- We painted color, top coat in dupont centari auto enamal.- The insides of all alum. we left in primer (O.D. Green).- It's holding up so far.- Epoxy primer would also hold up very well with out top coat. - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:24 PM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions Thank you for the help, both Jack and Dan.- Yes Dan I've read the gear co nstruction write up that Chris did on westcoastpiet.com.- I chose to do m ine differently (right side up), but still got the job done.- Thanks for the tips.- I'll get to work on the axle part soon.- Hopefully you can s ee the attached pic of what I have done thus far.- Mike Groah Tulare CA --- On Mon, 6/15/09, helspersew@aol.com wrote: From: helspersew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions Mike, =0A =0APlease see the attached. As you might see, I have elongated the "sheath" tube on my "axle locator" tube system into an oval shape. This is to allow a "rocking" motion on the gear, without putting an undo strain on the tube that is welded onto the axle. Please note I have not flown with this set-u p. I unashamedly copied it from Simon McCormack from "down under" www.westc oastpiet.com. They look at things from a "different" perspective there, and many times have some superb ideas. Also, have you looked at Chris Tracey's straight axle gear fabrication instructions on the westcoastpiet site? =0A =0ADan Helsper =0APoplar Grove, IL =0A =0A =0A-----Original Message----- =0AFrom: Michael Groah =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Mon, Jun 15, 2009 8:36 am =0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Straight Axle gear questions =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0AOk , I have been working on my straight axle gear, but I have a couple o f questions. First how much room should I allow between the gear legs and t he brakes for the bungees?- If I remember correctly Jack Phillips said he left 6".--- Also how much travel should I allow for the axle.- Wha t I'm asking about is the axle locator tube system like Mike Cuy has that k eeps the axle from rotating or sliding from side to side.- How much lengt h should I have? =0A =0A =0AMike Groah =0ATulare CA =0A =0A =0A Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. =0A=0A =0A=0A ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute From: Mark Roberts Fellers, I can't thank you enough for your feedback. I have a very good friend here in town that works alot in wood, and he can rip out stock on his bandsaw like no one's business. We actually made a set of Cradles together back when my wife and I discovered we were pregnant with twins (the one's that just graduated from High School last week!! Man, was that just 18 years ago??! I need a beer...) Along with the pondering over my navel lint I have thought of little else lately thna this project. If the guy pays me for the Dragonfly plans like he's suppose to (2 weeks later....) I am ordering plans Friday, and I will most likely settle down. But, I'm very grateful I am NOT the only one with "chronic tightassitis, with complications of overthinkitis" (I'm using that one for myself now) ... as this project can't cost me much at the beginning. I am also encouraged to know BHP made the last one out of Doug fir. Helps to know he believed in it too, if not for nostalgia sake :o) Thanks again guys. Really appreciate the help. Mark On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Wayne Bressler wrote: > > > That sounds like rumor to me... I would have a hard time believing the > Mini-Max was ever kitted in pine. > > Might want to do some digging before I believe that. > > I have a Mini-Max fin kit, and it is definitely not pine. It's a new kit > (2008). > > Wayne Bressler Jr. > Taildraggers, Inc. > taildraggersinc.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 16, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Owen Davies wrote: > > >>> >> Last I knew, the MiniMax ultralights were kitted in pine. Don't know of >> any heavier aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they weren't reasonably >> common. >> >> Owen >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:33 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Doug Fir as a substitute Go here and scroll down. There's a chart of wood strengths. http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html > Mark, > > Just a reminder about this page from AC41.13. It is void of personal > feelings and preferences. (hope it is attached OK) > > Gary Boothe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.