---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/29/09: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:14 AM - Re: tail weight (Wizzard187@aol.com) 2. 04:11 AM - Re: tail weight (gcardinal) 3. 04:54 AM - Re: tail weight (Jack Phillips) 4. 06:50 AM - Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 5. 07:04 AM - Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward... (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 6. 07:37 AM - Electtric plane (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 7. 08:08 AM - Piet windshield (Woodflier@aol.com) 8. 08:41 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Jeff Boatright) 9. 08:42 AM - Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward... (Bill Church) 10. 08:55 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 11. 09:09 AM - Re: Piet windshield (Jack Phillips) 12. 09:09 AM - Re: Piet windshield (Steve Eldredge) 13. 09:22 AM - Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward... (Rick Holland) 14. 09:22 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Michael Silvius) 15. 09:22 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Jeff Boatright) 16. 09:33 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Rick Holland) 17. 09:34 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Rick Holland) 18. 09:37 AM - Somewhat off topic (but funny) (Rick Holland) 19. 09:50 AM - Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward (Oscar Zuniga) 20. 09:50 AM - Re: Electtric plane (jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com) 21. 09:55 AM - Re: Somewhat off topic (but funny) (K5YAC) 22. 10:09 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Ameet Savant) 23. 10:26 AM - Re: Electtric plane () 24. 10:39 AM - Re: Rib Spruce strips (chase143) 25. 10:49 AM - Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans (Bill Church) 26. 10:50 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Michael Silvius) 27. 11:04 AM - Re: Electtric plane (Michael Silvius) 28. 11:13 AM - Passenger Door (TOM STINEMETZE) 29. 11:41 AM - Re: Passenger Door (Bill Church) 30. 03:04 PM - Christmas in late June (Mark Roberts) 31. 05:18 PM - Re: Christmas in late June (Gary Boothe) 32. 05:37 PM - Re: Christmas in late June (Mark Roberts) 33. 05:40 PM - Case bushings (Stu Brown) 34. 06:01 PM - aluminum paint prep (Douwe Blumberg) 35. 06:40 PM - Re: Christmas in late June (Ameet Savant) 36. 06:56 PM - Re: Christmas in late June (Gary Boothe) 37. 07:16 PM - Re: Christmas in late June (Mark Roberts) 38. 07:31 PM - Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans (John Fay) 39. 07:51 PM - Re: Case bushings (Kip and Beth Gardner) 40. 07:56 PM - Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans (Mark Roberts) 41. 08:47 PM - Re: Christmas in late June (Ryan Mueller) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:11 AM PST US From: Wizzard187@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight Pieters, Can anyone that is flying tell me how much wt they have on the tail when in three point and when horizontal? Also can they lift the tail when making a take off run and do they have any incidence in the horizontal. Thanks Ken Conrad in hot corn country **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:50 AM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight On NX18235 the weight on the tailskid in the three point attitude is about approx. 26 pounds. When level the weight on the skid is 6 pounds. The tail can be lifted quite easily as soon as power is advanced. Horizontal stabilizer incidence is level. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Wizzard187@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight Pieters, Can anyone that is flying tell me how much wt they have on the tail when in three point and when horizontal? Also can they lift the tail when making a take off run and do they have any incidence in the horizontal. Thanks Ken Conrad in hot corn country ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- A Good Credit Score is 700 or98699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc= 668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:15 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tail weight On "Icarus Plummet" the weight on the tailwheel (empty) is about 30 lbs. At the level flight position, the weight is probably about 8 lbs (haven't weighed it in that position, but it is easy to pick up with one hand). I have two AN960 washers under the forward attach bolts, providing a couple degrees of "up" incidence. I found it difficult to get the tail up on takeoff until I got up to 40 mph, so I added a strip of duct tape to seal the gap between the stabilizer and elevators. Now I can raise the tail after I've travelled about 100 feet. The gap seal also affected trim in level flight, requiring more nose up trim than it used to. I could probably remove those washers and take the incidence out and it would be just about right. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gcardinal Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight On NX18235 the weight on the tailskid in the three point attitude is about approx. 26 pounds. When level the weight on the skid is 6 pounds. The tail can be lifted quite easily as soon as power is advanced. Horizontal stabilizer incidence is level. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Wizzard187@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight Pieters, Can anyone that is flying tell me how much wt they have on the tail when in three point and when horizontal? Also can they lift the tail when making a take off run and do they have any incidence in the horizontal. Thanks Ken Conrad in hot corn country _____ A Good Credit Score is 700 or98699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072% 26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:26 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans Oscar-- I find it really interesting that you discovered your 41CC engine mount is 2 3/4" longer than plans. My guess is that your wing is positioned maybe 1-2" "slant-back" from your cabanes being vertical no ? With my motor mount I intentionally made it 1" longer than plans because I'm 200lbs and didn't want to have to slant the wing way, way back to get the CG numbers to work out. As it turned out my wing is 4" aft of the cabane struts in the perfect vertical orientation. Steve E. from Utah (best I can recall) had his wing back SIX inches to make his CG turn out right. Nothing wrong with that but longer motor mounts do for the Cont. 65 does keep builders from having to position the wing back very far. (that's why GN-1's noses look so long--because they are. The reason they are so long is that the wing on a GN-1 is NOT repositionable fore and aft with the way they designed the GN-1 cabane fittings. If your CG comes out wrong on a GN-1 you just can't move the wing fore or aft to fix it-- you have to build a new motor mount or add lead somewhere !!!! Mike C. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:39 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward... It would be nice to see some type of relationship of motor mount or engine relationship to the firewall based upon engine weight and pilot weight as in a table such that the guessing and experimentation could be minimized based upon the table of relationship dimensions. Then all that would be left would be a series of small adjustments of the wing to achieve the best combination. Just a thought. John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:13 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane Perhaps this is an alternative to the model A engine? http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html Steve D 35 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:30 AM PST US From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield Steve, I considered making the framed windshields, like Jack Phillips did, but figured it was beyond my abilities as a metal worker to make the frames. They look terrific, though. I took some 1/4" plexiglas bought at Lowes, cut the blank out with a Dreml tool, made a simple single curve aluminum form with sheet aluminum and some wire to hold it in a curve, and put the form with a plexiglas blank in the oven in the kitchen at 250 degrees for 10 minutes. The plexiglas formed over the curve and it worked out just great. I left the plastic covering on the plexiglas which was tough to get off but protected it from scratching. I just used simple aluminum brackets to attach the windshields to the turtle decks. Here's a few pics. Matt Paxton NX629ML **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:53 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward... From: "Bill Church" You're right, John, it would be nice. But I don't think it's practical, for two reasons: 1. The number of combinations of different engine weights and configurations and pilot weights is almost limitless. And, 2. The actual weight distribution of the aircraft itself is far too variable (due to most builders "personalizing" their project and other unknown variables like tailwheel assembly weight, paint finish, etc.) I think the only method that will work is to do a proper weight and balance calculation based on each individual aircraft. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:18 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? thus helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit for pax. There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask him what he thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) Blue skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > > All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very > light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely > necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it > would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently > only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of > fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric > motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's > another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the > front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would > a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? > -- > --- > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > Emory University School of Medicine > Editor-in-Chief > Molecular Vision > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:37 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield So Matt, are you about ready to fly that thing? Any chance you'll have it at Brodhead? Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodflier@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield Steve, I considered making the framed windshields, like Jack Phillips did, but figured it was beyond my abilities as a metal worker to make the frames. They look terrific, though. I took some 1/4" plexiglas bought at Lowes, cut the blank out with a Dreml tool, made a simple single curve aluminum form with sheet aluminum and some wire to hold it in a curve, and put the form with a plexiglas blank in the oven in the kitchen at 250 degrees for 10 minutes. The plexiglas formed over the curve and it worked out just great. I left the plastic covering on the plexiglas which was tough to get off but protected it from scratching. I just used simple aluminum brackets to attach the windshields to the turtle decks. Here's a few pics. Matt Paxton NX629ML _____ A Good126575x1221823281x1201398699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/p m/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:39 AM PST US From: Steve Eldredge Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield Looks great! Best wishes on your project. I did the same kind of windshie ld on my piet, with three anchor points using Lexan. No oven bending, just muscled it into place. It would eventually crack, but by then it had enou gh scratches it was time to replace it anyway. Steve E. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodflier@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield Steve, I considered making the framed windshields, like Jack Phillips did, but figured it was beyond my abilities as a metal worker to make the frames . They look terrific, though. I took some 1/4" plexiglas bought at Lowes, c ut the blank out with a Dreml tool, made a simple single curve aluminum for m with sheet aluminum and some wire to hold it in a curve, and put the form with a plexiglas blank in the oven in the kitchen at 250 degrees for 10 mi nutes. The plexiglas formed over the curve and it worked out just great. I left the plastic covering on the plexiglas which was tough to get off but p rotected it from scratching. I just used simple aluminum brackets to attach the windshields to the turtle decks. Here's a few pics. Matt Paxton NX629ML ________________________________ A Good126575x1221823281x1201398699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport. com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>S ee yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward... From: Rick Holland I think the only method that will work is to do a proper weight and balance > calculation based on each individual aircraft. > > Agreed, I did an "engineless" W&B on my uncovered assembled airframe with scrap metal added where the fuel tank goes to simulate full fuel, vertical cabanes (why have to move the wing back if you can put the engine forward enough to not require it). I then back calculated where the engine (ready to run with oil, prop, etc) needed to go and built my mount accordingly (240 lbs for a Corvair in my case). Also, since this W&B did not include cover and paint, according to Jack Phillips that will move your CG back something under an inch also. Rick > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:03 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane amazing what you can do with a couple of aluminum ladders and mother's washing machine motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-tx6rPz3HY Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" > Perhaps this is an alternative to the model A engine? > > http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:04 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane I agree about pushing the weight forward - the 100 lb guess at the engine vs motor weight difference would put that 100 lbs ahead of the firewall, but obviously more battery weight can be put there for W&B purposes. Another thing I wonder about is why these motors are being run at rpms so high that a reduction drive is needed. I always thought that electric motor develop maximal torque as rpm goes to zero. >NGB" > >Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? >thus helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit >for pax. There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask >him what he thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? > >WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) > >Blue skies, >Steve D ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane From: Rick Holland We need to have Piet builders toss in a couple bucks each at Broadhead to come up with a "Orteig *Prize" (like Lindbergh won) for the first electric Piet flown into Broadhead (from some required minimum distance). May be able to get EAA to toss in some dough too, they would love to showcase something like that at Oshkosh. Rick * On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB < steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil> wrote: > steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil> > > Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? thus > helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit for pax. > There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask him what he > thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? > > WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) > > Blue skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Boatright > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:49 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > > > All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very > > light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely > > necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it > > would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently > > only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of > > fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric > > motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's > > another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the > > front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would > > a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? > > -- > > --- > > > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > > Emory University School of Medicine > > Editor-in-Chief > > Molecular Vision > > > > > > > > > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane From: Rick Holland > Another thing I wonder about is why these motors are being run at rpms so > high that a reduction drive is needed. I always thought that electric motor > develop maximal torque as rpm goes to zero. > Good point, I thought that the torque for an electric motor was just a vertical line starting from zero rpm. -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Somewhat off topic (but funny) From: Rick Holland > His request approved, the Fox News photographer quickly used a > cell phone to call the local airport to charter a flight. > He was told a twin engine plane would be waiting for him at the > airport. > > Arriving at the airfield, he spotted a plane warming up outside > a hanger. He jumped in with his bag, slammed the door shut, and > shouted, 'Let's go.' The pilot taxied out, swung the plane into the > wind and took > off. Once in the air, the photographer instructed the pilot, > 'Fly over the valley and make low passes so I can take pictures > of the fires on the hillsides.' > 'Why?' asked the pilot. > 'Because I'm a photographer for Fox Cable News,' he responded. > 'And I need to get some close up shots' > > The pilot was strangely silent for a moment. > Finally he stammered, 'So, what you're telling me is .... you're > NOT my flight instructor?' -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:13 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward Mikee- In fact, the cabanes on 41CC are slanted aft 4". So the engine mount was lengthened a bit to make up some of the moment lost by using the lighter Continental engine instead of the Ford A engine, but moving the wing aft made up for the rest. Thus, the nose on 41CC is pleasantly configured with no Jimmy Durante effect and the cabane slant isn't really noticeable except to Piet purists. The airplane balances very nicely in all configurations and trim forces are light with the bungee setup that I have on it. Here's an excerpt from the archives, posted by Doc Mosher on the subject, perhaps adding some explanation of why all this engine mount and cabane tilting stuff is needed: >Historically, most Piets come out of the jig being tail heavy >because they don't have that heavy Ford A engine on the front >end of the teeter-totter. If you increase the arm of the >engine weight of a 220# Corvair engine, for example, (move it >4 or 5 inches forward of where the Ford used to be) your Piet >will probably not be chronically tailheavy. Then, if you want, >you can tweak it by moving the wing fore or aft- usually aft - >to really set the loaded CG between your goal numbers of 22/34% Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane From: jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com it looks like a modern day revamp of the flying flea. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Somewhat off topic (but funny) From: "K5YAC" Maybe I am reading too much into this hee hee, ha ha.... but why a FOX news guy? Hmmm. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250625#250625 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:29 AM PST US From: Ameet Savant Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane Low RPM equals low HP (power) and low efficiency. An electric motor may make its max power at 50% max RPM, while being most efficient at 75%-90% max RPM. Given where battery technology is today, I would opt for less power and more efficiency. :) Also, given max RPM can be 30,000+ the 50% mark also needs a reduction gear anyway. Ameet Omaha, NE --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Jeff Boatright wrote: > Another thing I wonder about is why these motors are being > run at rpms so high that a reduction drive is needed. I > always thought that electric motor develop maximal torque as > rpm goes to zero. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:23 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane The following thoughts are based on really loose, ballpark-only, calculations. I don't stake my reputation on any of it. In cruising flight, that clean little Chinese airplane with long wings probably gets by on around 10 Hp. An airplane like a Pietenpol requires something like 25-50 Hp, or anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 watts. The most efficient currently-available storage batteries can store a little less than 60 Watt-hours per pound, which means that, at an impossible 100% efficiency, it could take more than 600 lbs of batteries to power a Pietenpol for an hour of cruising. This does not take into account the higher power demands of takeoff and climb or any regeneration during descent. If we can cover the top of our 145 sq ft wing with solar cells, we could, theoretically, get another 3000-4000 watts on average, which would extend the range a little. However, we need a little more battery development before we are ready for the electric Piet. A battery-powered motor-glider is much more likely right now. Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:54 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > > > Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? thus > helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit for pax. > There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask him what he > thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? > > WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) > > Blue skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Boatright > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:49 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > >> >> All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very >> light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely >> necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it >> would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently >> only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of >> fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric >> motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's >> another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the >> front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would >> a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? >> -- >> --- >> >> Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Ophthalmology >> Emory University School of Medicine >> Editor-in-Chief >> Molecular Vision >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:46 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib Spruce strips From: "chase143" Jim, Well done. That will certainly help some lucky builder. Thanks for the generosity! Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250633#250633 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans From: "Bill Church" Like Mike says, the Pietenpol design has a handy feature built-in that allows for CofG adjustments (leaning the cabane struts fore or aft). It is surprising (to me, at least) that tilted cabanes do not appear as obvious as one would expect. I would have thought that a 4" tilt to the rear would look funny, but you really have to look hard to see it. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mc-pietbest .jpg The alternative to tilting the cabanes is to extend the motor mount, and the following shows an Air Camper powered by a Continental A-65 that has vertical cabanes. In order to achieve this, the motor mount had to be extended (if my memory serves me correctly) something in the neighborhood of 9". The nose is definitely a bit longer than usual, but is not as noticable as one would expect. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=Brussels%20 2 008_135.JPG&PhotoID=3949 I suspect a combination of the two is the best approach - extend the motor mount (or the fuselage - might as well make the space usable) by an inch or two, AND tilt the cabanes as needed to stay within the CofG range. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 9:50 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans --> Aerospace Corporation]" Oscar-- I find it really interesting that you discovered your 41CC engine mount is 2 3/4" longer than plans. My guess is that your wing is positioned maybe 1-2" "slant-back" from your cabanes being vertical no ? With my motor mount I intentionally made it 1" longer than plans because I'm 200lbs and didn't want to have to slant the wing way, way back to get the CG numbers to work out. As it turned out my wing is 4" aft of the cabane struts in the perfect vertical orientation. Steve E. from Utah (best I can recall) had his wing back SIX inches to make his CG turn out right. Nothing wrong with that but longer motor mounts do for the Cont. 65 does keep builders from having to position the wing back very far. (that's why GN-1's noses look so long--because they are. The reason they are so long is that the wing on a GN-1 is NOT repositionable fore and aft with the way they designed the GN-1 cabane fittings. If your CG comes out wrong on a GN-1 you just can't move the wing fore or aft to fix it-- you have to build a new motor mount or add lead somewhere !!!! Mike C. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:15 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane Yes, its a Ladder Pou or in French a Pouchel. A flying flea made out of aluminum ladders. more on it here: http://www.pouchel.com/english/index_eng.php?p=accueil_eng.htm Garry Gower's in Mexico http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x309/pouchelmex/Pouchel/ http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x309/pouchelmex/La%20Bamba%20en%20el%2 0Aerodromo%20de%20Kordish/ Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com it looks like a modern day revamp of the flying flea. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:07 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane some photos of the electric flea http://www.pouchel.com/Essai%20Pouchelec/album/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com it looks like a modern day revamp of the flying flea. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:25 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Passenger Door Does anyone know if Yesterday's Wings is still around? After finding out that a passenger door is a possibility, my wife now insists that it is not "optional" anymore. I have a phone number gleaned from the Matronics search function but it is no longer in service. Any help would be appreciated. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger Door From: "Bill Church" The website still seems to be in service: http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/index.html ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:20 PM PST US From: Mark Roberts Subject: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one tube you've been this excited about?!' I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the readers digest arrives!" That would involve long term couch sleeping... :-) Mark Mark Roberts ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:42 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June You're a wise man, Mark. Congratulations! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one tube you've been this excited about?!' I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the readers digest arrives!" That would involve long term couch sleeping... :-) Mark Mark Roberts ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June From: Mark Roberts Well, there was another envelope in the mail box as well, so I got'em all... So now off to spend some time staring at them... :o) On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > You're a wise man, Mark. Congratulations! > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > Roberts > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 1:51 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June > > > Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up tube was just > delivered to the house... 'was there just one tube you've been this > excited about?!' > > I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at least I > didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the readers digest > arrives!" > > That would involve long term couch sleeping... > > :-) > > Mark > > > Mark Roberts > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:40 PM PST US From: Stu Brown Subject: Pietenpol-List: Case bushings I believe you will find polyethylene unsuitable for bushing material PE will cold flow and is not much good above 160F. Polyurethane would be a more suitable choice. Stu Brown Time: 11:45:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair mounts From: "skellytown flyer" Well I was at the hardware store and found some 1/2" O.D. Polyethylene tubing that seems tough. I think I may try that on my bolts where they pass through the case holes.I will make a mental note to keep watch on them and see if I can see any wear.for sure it would be a good item to inspect at annuals.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250480#250480 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:12 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep Hey, I'm getting ready to paint my cowling. I know I need to etch aluminum prior to priming but can I leave it shiney or do I need to lightly sand it to scuff it up and give it some tooth? Douwe ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:28 PM PST US From: Ameet Savant Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June Christmas indeed! I got my GN-1 plans in the mail today. Unfortunately, I have to work tonight :( Ameet Savant Omaha, NE --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > > Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up > tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one > tube you've been this excited about?!' > > I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at > least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the > readers digest arrives!" > > That would involve long term couch sleeping... > > :-) > > Mark > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:22 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June OK...both got their plans on the same day. Who's going to finish first? I think we need to start a pool.... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ameet Savant Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June Christmas indeed! I got my GN-1 plans in the mail today. Unfortunately, I have to work tonight :( Ameet Savant Omaha, NE --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > > Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up > tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one > tube you've been this excited about?!' > > I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at > least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the > readers digest arrives!" > > That would involve long term couch sleeping... > > :-) > > Mark > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June From: Mark Roberts Hey Gary! Thanks for the Jenny gear plans. I will look at those as I do my Planning... Now, as to the one that finishes first... After looking at these plans, I am going to be glad to FINISH! It's not that complicated, it is just interpreting them and mentally visualizing how it is all going to go together.... AND, after a little talk with Little Mrs. Pretty Lady, I might be needing a side job before I can start buying wood :o( Well, more time to build one in CAD and work out my 'improvements'... (Are there ever improvements? Just modifications :o) Mark On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > OK...both got their plans on the same day. Who's going to finish first? I > think we need to start a pool.... > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ameet > Savant > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 6:31 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June > > > > Christmas indeed! I got my GN-1 plans in the mail today. Unfortunately, I > have to work tonight :( > > Ameet Savant > Omaha, NE > > --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > > > > > Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up > > tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one > > tube you've been this excited about?!' > > > > I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at > > least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the > > readers digest arrives!" > > > > That would involve long term couch sleeping... > > > > :-) > > > > Mark > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans From: John Fay > What we have done on our piets, (my partner Dave and I) is move the > corvairs we are planning to use 4 inches forward. But we are doing it by > moving the firewall four inches ahead of where the plans have it, thus > extending the front cockpit legroom by four inches, and also expanding the > luggage compartment we are building over the passenger's legs. But we have only built the sides of the fuselages, and have not assembled them, so we have no idea if this will be a success or might cause some unforeseen problems. John Fay in Peoria ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:47 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Case bushings Teflon would be a good choice too, but you'd probably have to make them yourself from round stock. We used to use it to make parts & equipment for the oceanographic work I did. Fairly rugged, completely chemical resistant, and easy to work. It also won't contaminate sea water samples, but that would only matter to Corky, I suppose :) Would be kind of pricey, I imagine. Kip Gardner On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Stu Brown wrote: > > > I believe you will find polyethylene unsuitable for bushing > material PE will cold flow and is not much good above 160F. > Polyurethane would be a more suitable choice. > > Stu Brown > > > Time: 11:45:50 AM PST US > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair mounts > From: "skellytown flyer" > > > Well I was at the hardware store and found some 1/2" O.D. > Polyethylene tubing that > seems tough. I think I may try that on my bolts where they pass > through the > case holes.I will make a mental note to keep watch on them and see > if I can > see any wear.for sure it would be a good item to inspect at > annuals.Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250480#250480 > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans From: Mark Roberts Hey Bill: The swept back wings on Mike's plane has almost a hint of "I'm faster than you think I am" look about them... :o) Mark On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:26 PM, John Fay wrote: > > What we have done on our piets, (my partner Dave and I) is move the >> corvairs we are planning to use 4 inches forward. But we are doing it by >> moving the firewall four inches ahead of where the plans have it, thus >> extending the front cockpit legroom by four inches, and also expanding the >> luggage compartment we are building over the passenger's legs. > > But we have only built the sides of the fuselages, and have not assembled > them, so we have no idea if this will be a success or might cause some > unforeseen problems. > > John Fay > in Peoria > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June From: Ryan Mueller Mark, Congrats on getting your plans and taking your first steps. As you can read in the archives, and hear from many on the list, I think the best thing to do is to build your Pietenpol as you would eat an elephant: one bite at a time. No need to overwhelm yourself with the enormity of the fact that you are going to be building your own flying machine from scratch. Break it down into smaller tasks to be accomplished. If you can keep accomplishing those smaller tasks, pretty soon you will have made significant progress. As far as getting a side job in order to start buying wood....well, I don't know what to tell you there, other than the fact that the cost of the wood is not even one of the larger expenses you will put forth in the whole process of building a Pietenpol. While a Piet is a nice value, and a relatively economical way to build an airplane, it's still an airplane, and there are cheaper hobbies you can have. That said, you could take your first step down the path to rib-building for about $240-$260 (depending on shipping). All the capstrip material, ply, and glue to build your ribs from Aircraft Spruce right now comes to $212, and then add shipping on top of that. A relatively modest investment, and then you can be making solid progress. While there is nothing wrong with planning, dreaming, "CADing", etc, the only thing that is ever going to get you into the air is actual hands-on building. And you will probably drive yourself and "Mrs Pretty Lady" nuts if you spend all your hours thinking and not doing. If you ever happen to get to meet Jess at Brodhead, ask her the simple question: "Long fuselage, short fuselage?", and watch her reaction. :P It is also far more satisfying to spend an hour actually working on the airplane and having something to show for it, than spending all day just thinking about it and not having anything but frustration to show for it. Good luck with your Piet. The list is a great resource, including the archives. Many questions have been asked and answered here, and you can find them in the archives (or just throw them out there if you can't find them). Have a good night, Ryan On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Hey Gary! > Thanks for the Jenny gear plans. I will look at those as I do my > Planning... > > Now, as to the one that finishes first... After looking at these plans, I > am going to be glad to FINISH! It's not that complicated, it is just > interpreting them and mentally visualizing how it is all going to go > together.... > > AND, after a little talk with Little Mrs. Pretty Lady, I might be needing a > side job before I can start buying wood :o( > > Well, more time to build one in CAD and work out my 'improvements'... (Are > there ever improvements? Just modifications :o) > > Mark > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > >> > >> >> OK...both got their plans on the same day. Who's going to finish first? I >> think we need to start a pool.... >> >> Gary Boothe >> Cool, Ca. >> Pietenpol >> WW Corvair Conversion >> Tail done, Fuselage on gear >> (13 ribs down.) >> Do not archive >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ameet >> Savant >> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 6:31 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June >> >> > >> >> >> Christmas indeed! I got my GN-1 plans in the mail today. Unfortunately, I >> have to work tonight :( >> >> Ameet Savant >> Omaha, NE >> >> --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Mark Roberts wrote: >> >> > >> > Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up >> > tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one >> > tube you've been this excited about?!' >> > >> > I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at >> > least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the >> > readers digest arrives!" >> > >> > That would involve long term couch sleeping... >> > >> > :-) >> > >> > Mark >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ============ >> igator to browse >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.