---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/01/09: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Long fuselage dimensions (Jim Quinn) 2. 06:06 AM - Looking for someone. (Isablcorky@aol.com) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: Looking for someone. (Ameet Savant) 4. 06:38 AM - Re: Fuse. longerons bending (Michael Perez) 5. 06:42 AM - Re: Looking for someone. (Isablcorky@aol.com) 6. 06:52 AM - Plywoods (Isablcorky@aol.com) 7. 06:55 AM - Re: Looking for someone. (Ryan Mueller) 8. 07:02 AM - Re: Looking for someone. (Peter W Johnson) 9. 07:08 AM - Re: Looking for someone. (Jared Yates) 10. 07:30 AM - Re: Plywoods (899PM) 11. 07:54 AM - Re: Plywoods (Tim Willis) 12. 08:05 AM - Re: aluminum paint prep (shad bell) 13. 08:12 AM - Found My Engine!! (TOPGUN) 14. 09:10 AM - Re: Found My Engine!! (Michael Perez) 15. 09:16 AM - Found My Engine!! (Oscar Zuniga) 16. 09:24 AM - Re: Found My Engine!! (TOPGUN) 17. 09:27 AM - Re: Found My Engine!! (TOPGUN) 18. 10:38 AM - Re: Plywoods (Isablcorky@aol.com) 19. 10:52 AM - Re: Found My Engine!! (TOPGUN) 20. 10:54 AM - Re: Found My Engine!! (TOPGUN) 21. 11:40 AM - Fuselage length (Will42) 22. 12:20 PM - Re: Fuselage length (K5YAC) 23. 12:54 PM - Re: Fuselage length (Ameet Savant) 24. 12:54 PM - Re: Fuselage length (Will42) 25. 01:12 PM - Re: Fuselage length (Rick Holland) 26. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (Gene Rambo) 27. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Found My Engine!! (Jack Phillips) 28. 03:12 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (Jack Phillips) 29. 04:17 PM - Re: Fuselage length (Will42) 30. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (Ryan Mueller) 31. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (amsafetyc@aol.com) 32. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (amsafetyc@aol.com) 33. 06:14 PM - Re: Fuse. longerons bending (Rick Holland) 34. 06:33 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (John Hofmann) 35. 07:37 PM - Re: Fuselage length (Pieti Lowell) 36. 07:45 PM - OSH (Dick N.) 37. 08:00 PM - Re: Found My Engine!! (TOPGUN) 38. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (Roman Bukolt) 39. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (amsafetyc@aol.com) 40. 08:50 PM - Brodhead from Minneapolis area? (TOM MICHELLE BRANT) 41. 09:24 PM - Re: seeing the instruments (Jim) 42. 09:33 PM - Re: seeing the instruments (Jim) 43. 11:02 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 44. 11:11 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) 45. 11:13 PM - Re: Plywoods (Mike Tunnicliffe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:51 AM PST US From: "Jim Quinn" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage dimensions I'm building the longer fuselage and once again having trouble reading the top and bottom portion of the plans. Does anybody have a clearer drawing of the bracing and/or dimensions for joining the two sides of the fuselage? Thanks, Jim ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:55 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Pieters, Found a pic of a Piet which is exactly as I want to create. I have no idea as to who the owner or builder may be. Would the real builder stand up and shout. Blue fuse w/ light wing, cream or yellow. Cont Engine with white valve covers and bleached straight, Aeronca style, stacks, split gear with bunge e close to fuse bottom and wire spoked wheels. On the aft side of the fuse is a decal with ARC inside a circle. Will someone help me identify this plane so I may contact the owner-builder. Thank you Corky in extremely hot Louisiana **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:17 AM PST US From: Ameet Savant Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Corky, You got me drooling with that poetic description. Care to share the photograph? Ameet Do not archive --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Isablcorky@aol.com wrote: > Pieters, > > Blue fuse w/ light wing, cream or yellow. Cont Engine > with white valve > covers and bleached straight, Aeronca style, stacks, split > gear with bungee > close to fuse bottom and wire spoked wheels. On the aft > side of the fuse is a > decal with ARC inside a circle. > Corky in extremely hot Louisiana ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:38 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending Thanks all for the replies. I am glad to hear no one has had any real issue s with the longerons flexing after removal from the jig. I guess the length and the lower bend is such that there is minimal stress on the upper longe rons once everything is tied together. - I am not quite there yet, but I have the last of my wing plywood on it's wa y as well as the longerons. I should be wrapping up the last wing and getti ng started on the fuse. in another month or so. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:49 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Sure, it's a real beauty. Don't have a clue as to how I got the pic **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:54 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Pieters, About 1/8 and 1/16 plywood. found a source of OKUME plywood. There are two grades ( and prices) for the 1/8th. European $51.20 a sheet 4x8, Asian $26.00. For 1/16th it's $36.80 for a 4x8 sheet. 1/4 in 4x8 sheet $53.60 Have anyone of you used this type wood or know of it's use in our airplane building? The broker did mention how light this wood is. Compared to Wicks prices, seems unreal Shall we have some Piet gab on this subject? Corky **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. From: Ryan Mueller That would be Walt Evans: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/new_page_58.htm. I'm pretty sure Walt's on this list..... Ryan On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > Sure, it's a real beauty. Don't have a clue as to how I got the pic > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:36 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Corky, I believe that might be Walt Evan's Piet. He's on the list so should chime in. Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 1 July 2009 11:40 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Sure, it's a real beauty. Don't have a clue as to how I got the pic _____ Dell p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0> Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:33 AM PST US From: "Jared Yates" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. It wasn't by chance Dick Navratil's NX2RN, was it? http://jaredyates.com/pages/brodhead08/jy~DSC_6882.JPG The description seems similar except for the logo on the fuselage. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Pieters, Found a pic of a Piet which is exactly as I want to create. I have no idea as to who the owner or builder may be. Would the real builder stand up and shout. Blue fuse w/ light wing, cream or yellow. Cont Engine with white valve covers and bleached straight, Aeronca style, stacks, split gear with bungee close to fuse bottom and wire spoked wheels. On the aft side of the fuse is a decal with ARC inside a circle. Will someone help me identify this plane so I may contact the owner-builder. Thank you Corky in extremely hot Louisiana _____ Dell p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0> Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:32 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plywoods From: "899PM" Corky, My fuse sides are 1/8" OKUME. Worked great! -------- PAPA MIKE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250941#250941 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1214_121.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:06 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Corky, I recall someone on this board saying that mahogany ply is a little stronger for gussets than okume, but does not bend as easily. I know a Skybolt builder who started with 1.5mm mahogany for his wing LE (actually a D-truss) but had to switch to okume to get the bend he needed. I would think okume should work for 1/8" gussets and the like, providing more than enough strength vs. mahogany, but some experts should chime in. Someone who can tell you all you would want to know is Chris Boulter at Boulter Plywood. They are marine ply specialists, and handle a lot of related stuff, including several grades of okume. Take a look at their website-- www.boulterplywood.com.... I think his prices are higher on most than what you are quoting, but look under "specials" on his website: 1.5mm okume is $29 a sheet. They are outside Boston, so shipping dimensions and costs are both factors. I know they can ship whole sheets UPS when cut into either 2X8 ft. or 4X4 ft. Is your broker local to Shreveport, or where? Please tell me Dallas or Houston, better yet Austin. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com Sent: Jul 1, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Pieters, About 1/8 and 1/16 plywood. found a source of OKUME plywood. There are two grades ( and prices) for the 1/8th. European $51.20 a sheet 4x8, Asian $26.00. For 1/16th it's $36.80 for a 4x8 sheet. 1/4 in 4x8 sheet $53.60 Have anyone of you used this type wood or know of it's use in our airplane building? The broker did mention how light this wood is. Compared to Wicks prices, seems unreal Shall we have some Piet gab on this subject? Corky Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:15 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep Tim, the alumiprep and alodine are two different things,- The alumiprep i s an acid that etches the aluminum, leaves it sort of frosty in appearance, and prepares the aluminum for the alodine.- The alodine is a chemical co nversion coating which prevents corrosion, and leaves the aluminum with a g old tint (1201 leves the gold tint and the liquid is gold colored).- The 1100, or 1101 I believe is the one that does not tint the aluminum, however it is harder to tell when the part has been soaked enough.- And one othe r tip for alodine application to big parts such as cowlings, large sheets e tc, is to spray the alodine on the part with a squirt bottle, and then cove r the part in clean (non contaminated) rags and soak the rags with alodine. - This keeps the part in contact with the alodine, and keeps the alodine from running off the part.- Let soak untill you get a nice light bronze c olor and then rinse with water and let air dry.- On a safety note, wear non permiable gloves when using either, the acid will burn skin, and the a lodine has Chromium in it, not good for the human body, And bad for ground water as well. - Hope this helps, and always just follow the directions on the bottle, Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Found My Engine!! From: "TOPGUN" OK, i have been a lurker on here for quite some time, allot of great information! I have been on an engine search for the last year, finally found one that seems to be a great fit. I personally wanted to stay with the nostalgic look of the inline liquid cooled 4 cylinder, vs. the typical boxer aircraft/corvair engine. Over the past couple of months i have been converting my new engine for a dyno test to see if my calculations are correct, i attached a dyno sheet showing the result as well as some you tube clips. The engine is a Mitsubishi 2.6 liter 4G54, widely used in forklifts, i chose this engine because of it low operating rpm and high torque. The engine weighs in at 244 lbs as shown. The engine in he test has thousands of hours on it, now it is time to rebuild it and i should get another 5-10 hp. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmx2ERh7LxA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCr_8nDox8Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zMg6EWKZos Fuse and emp done One wing started Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250951#250951 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:39 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Found My Engine!! Curious, you say that engine is widely used on forklifts. I know nothing about these engines, so I ask, is it propane fueled? Diesel? I believe diesel engines produce some good torque. Very interesting choice, I hope you will continue to post here with updates...love to hear/see how it works out! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:31 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Found My Engine!! Hey, Topgun- that's a nifty setup. There should be plenty of those engines out there. A quick search on Wikipedia (Mitsubishi 4G54) shows an extensive list of foreign and domestic autos that the engine showed up in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Astron_engine Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC air cooled and proud of it ;o) San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! From: "TOPGUN" The engine was running on propane when i took it out......i made the intake manifold and adapted an aircraft carb and for the dyno test, i used 100ll av gas. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250961#250961 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! From: "TOPGUN" Most of the auto versions had a counter balance shaft which i didn't want cause of the added weight. Also, in the auto version the heads had some extra porting for emissions which is not desirable for this application. The forklift engine is absent of most of these items. taildrags(at)hotmail.com wrote: > Hey, Topgun- that's a nifty setup. There should be > plenty of those engines out there. A quick search on > Wikipedia (Mitsubishi 4G54) shows an extensive list of > foreign and domestic autos that the engine showed up > in. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Astron_engine > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > air cooled and proud of it ;o) > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250964#250964 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:02 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Port Townsend, Washington **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! From: "TOPGUN" here are some pics Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250977#250977 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1224_114.jpg ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! From: "TOPGUN" i have to try and figure out how to get my pictures smaller. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250978#250978 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage length From: "Will42" Can someone explain to me how making the fuselage longer compensates for a lighter engine. A lighter engine moves the CG rearward; lengthening the fuselage also moves the CG rearward. How does this correlate? I can understand moving the wing back as this would move the CG forward ( I think?) but a longer fuselage seems a move in the wrong direction. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250985#250985 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:08 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: "K5YAC" Hmmm... moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well. Perhaps you mean lengthening the engine mount will compensate for a light engine, or lengthening the front of the fuse (?), but if you are light up front, a longer tail probably isn't going to help. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250988#250988 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US From: Ameet Savant Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage length Will, The way I've thought about it is a lighter engine needs to have a longer nose. Effectively, increasing the distance between the wing (where cg should fall) and the engine. However, you can't just increase the nose and call it a day because your tail then may not have enough moment left to balance the wing in straight and level flight. To compensate for that you typically add some length between the wing and the tail. I've don't own the plans (yet) nor have I seen where the additional bays are added, but I bet there are two bays added- one in front of the wing and the other after it. This is my understanding from a design perspective, I am not sure if this is correct, but it makes sense to me. The ultimate effect is: 1) a lengthening of the fuselage and 2) moving of the wing behind from where it was, but nothing changes from a builder's point of view as the bay the wing attached to is unmodified. Regards, Ameet Savant Omaha, NE --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Will42 wrote: > Can someone explain to me how making the fuselage longer > compensates for a lighter engine. > > Will ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: "Will42" "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving the wing. My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter engines ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage length From: Rick Holland The long fuselage is more tail heavy (everything else being equal). Works great with the Corvair engine and its electrical system. And you are correct, tilting the cabanes back moves the fuselage forward, not the wings back and therefore the CG forward. rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Will42 wrote: > > Can someone explain to me how making the fuselage longer compensates for a > lighter engine. A lighter engine moves the CG rearward; lengthening the > fuselage also moves the CG rearward. How does this correlate? I can > understand moving the wing back as this would move the CG forward ( I > think?) but a longer fuselage seems a move in the wrong direction. > > Will > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250985#250985 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:50 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of lift around, not the CG. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Will42 To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length > "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving the wing. My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter engines ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:20 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! What kind of horsepower, at what RPM were you getting? Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOPGUN Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! The engine was running on propane when i took it out......i made the intake manifold and adapted an aircraft carb and for the dyno test, i used 100ll av gas. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250961#250961 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:07 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length The center of gravity of the entire airplane needs to be somewhere between about 15% and 33% of the way between the leading edge and trailing edge of the wing, in order for the plane to have sufficient stability. If the CG is forward of that range, the tail has insufficent force to be able to raise the nose to a positive angle of attack and no lift can be generated. If the CG is aft of that range, the plane will have "divergent stability" and will be uncontrollable. If the CG is too far aft, you can move it forward by moving something heavy (say, the engine, for example) further forward. Did you ever sit on a seesaw as a kid? If there was a fat kid sitting on the other end, you were left in the air, with your feet dangling helplessly. If you could only move a bit further away from the fulcrum, you could balance his mass. Take my word for it - one way to balance a tail-heavy Pietenpol with a light engine is to make the engine mount longer (within limits - too long and you start having directional stability issues, requiring a larger vertical tail). Far easier is to shift the wing aft. Even though moving the wing aft tends to move the CG aft as well (just slightly, due to the mass of the wing which has moved aft) it moves the acceptable CG range aft and allows the CG to fall within the acceptable range. Very few airplane designs can be modified in this way - it is one of the great advantages of the Pietenpol design. The GN-1 cannot be shifted like the Pietenpol can - there your only choice is to move the engine, add ballast or lose weight yourself. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Will42 Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving the wing. My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter engines ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:21 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: "Will42" [quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of lift around, not the CG. Gene > --- Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG as a result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, look at a weight and balance work sheet to confirm. And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward as can be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, however none of this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for the "lighter" engined Piets. It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a reasonable solution to an over-weight pilot. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251025#251025 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: Ryan Mueller Well, there is not necessarily a need for the longer fuselage for lighter engined Piets. There are Piets flying just fine with fuselages built to the '34 plans length and lighter Continental engines. And that statement got me to thinkin'....I couldn't recall where Bernard wrote that you should use the longer fuselage with lighter engines. Yes, it does mention that on the family website where the supplemental plans pack is sold. But a look at the plans sheet with the long fuselage drawing shows no mention that this fuselage is intended for use with lighter engines. And in fact, a flip through the builder's manual text reveals that the lengthening of the fuselage to the "long" length was a modification made to an airframe that was built purposely for testing with the Corvair engine. No mention is made of the fuselage being lengthened to accomadate Continental or similar lighter engines. Either way, it has been shown that you can use either fuselage length. The longer fuselage will weigh a little more than a similarly built short fuselage, but (in my opinion) it feels less cramped due to the length added in the cockpit. Ryan On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Will42 wrote: > > [quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be > a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of > lift around, not the CG. > > Gene > > > --- > > > Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG as a > result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, look at a weight > and balance work sheet to confirm. > > And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward as can > be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, however none of > this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for the "lighter" engined > Piets. > > It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a > different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a reasonable > solution to an over-weight pilot. > > Will > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: amsafetyc@aol.com "Anyone can provide accuracy" ------Original Message------ From: Will42 Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Jul 1, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length [quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of lift around, not the CG. Gene > --- Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG as a result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, look at a weight and balance work sheet to confirm. And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward as can be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, however none of this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for the "lighter" engined Piets. It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a reasonable solution to an over-weight pilot. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251025#251025 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: amsafetyc@aol.com SSBjaGVja2VkIHdpdGggaGFyYm9yIGZyZWlnaHQgYW5kIHRoZSBvbmx5IHBsYWNlIHRvIGdldCB3 aGF0IHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBzaG9ydCBmdXNlbGFnZSBwcm9ibGVtIGlzIGF2YWls YWJsZSB0aHJvdWdoIGhvbWUgZGVwb3QgYWlzbGUgOSAuLi4uLi4gRnVzZWxhZ2Ugc3RyZXRjaGVy cyBpZiB0aGV5IGFyZSBub3Qgb24gYmFjayBvcmRlcg0KDQpPciBvbiB0aGUgaW50ZXJuZXQNCg0K Sm9obiANClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVsZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVycnkNCg0KLS0tLS1P cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFJ5YW4gTXVlbGxlciA8cm11ZWxsZXIyM0BnbWFp bC5jb20+DQoNCkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMSBKdWwgMjAwOSAxOTozMToxNSANClRvOiA8cGlldGVucG9s LWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogUmU6IEZ1 c2VsYWdlIGxlbmd0aA0KDQoNCldlbGwsIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vdCBuZWNlc3NhcmlseSBhIG5lZWQg Zm9yIHRoZSBsb25nZXIgZnVzZWxhZ2UgZm9yIGxpZ2h0ZXINCmVuZ2luZWQgUGlldHMuIFRoZXJl IGFyZSBQaWV0cyBmbHlpbmcganVzdCBmaW5lIHdpdGggZnVzZWxhZ2VzIGJ1aWx0IHRvIHRoZQ0K JzM0IHBsYW5zIGxlbmd0aCBhbmQgbGlnaHRlciBDb250aW5lbnRhbCBlbmdpbmVzLiBBbmQgdGhh dCBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgZ290IG1lDQp0byB0aGlua2luJy4uLi5JIGNvdWxkbid0IHJlY2FsbCB3aGVy ZSBCZXJuYXJkIHdyb3RlIHRoYXQgeW91IHNob3VsZCB1c2UgdGhlDQpsb25nZXIgZnVzZWxhZ2Ug d2l0aCBsaWdodGVyIGVuZ2luZXMuIFllcywgaXQgZG9lcyBtZW50aW9uIHRoYXQgb24gdGhlDQpm YW1pbHkgd2Vic2l0ZSB3aGVyZSB0aGUgc3VwcGxlbWVudGFsIHBsYW5zIHBhY2sgaXMgc29sZC4g QnV0IGEgbG9vayBhdCB0aGUNCnBsYW5zIHNoZWV0IHdpdGggdGhlIGxvbmcgZnVzZWxhZ2UgZHJh d2luZyBzaG93cyBubyBtZW50aW9uIHRoYXQgdGhpcw0KZnVzZWxhZ2UgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgZm9y IHVzZSB3aXRoIGxpZ2h0ZXIgZW5naW5lcy4gQW5kIGluIGZhY3QsIGEgZmxpcA0KdGhyb3VnaCB0 aGUgYnVpbGRlcidzIG1hbnVhbCB0ZXh0IHJldmVhbHMgdGhhdCB0aGUgbGVuZ3RoZW5pbmcgb2Yg dGhlDQpmdXNlbGFnZSB0byB0aGUgImxvbmciIGxlbmd0aCB3YXMgYSBtb2RpZmljYXRpb24gbWFk ZSB0byBhbiBhaXJmcmFtZSB0aGF0DQp3YXMgYnVpbHQgcHVycG9zZWx5IGZvciB0ZXN0aW5nIHdp dGggdGhlIENvcnZhaXIgZW5naW5lLiBObyBtZW50aW9uIGlzIG1hZGUNCm9mIHRoZSBmdXNlbGFn ZSBiZWluZyBsZW5ndGhlbmVkIHRvIGFjY29tYWRhdGUgQ29udGluZW50YWwgb3Igc2ltaWxhcg0K bGlnaHRlciBlbmdpbmVzLg0KDQpFaXRoZXIgd2F5LCBpdCBoYXMgYmVlbiBzaG93biB0aGF0IHlv dSBjYW4gdXNlIGVpdGhlciBmdXNlbGFnZSBsZW5ndGguIFRoZQ0KbG9uZ2VyIGZ1c2VsYWdlIHdp bGwgd2VpZ2ggYSBsaXR0bGUgbW9yZSB0aGFuIGEgc2ltaWxhcmx5IGJ1aWx0IHNob3J0DQpmdXNl bGFnZSwgYnV0IChpbiBteSBvcGluaW9uKSBpdCBmZWVscyBsZXNzIGNyYW1wZWQgZHVlIHRvIHRo ZSBsZW5ndGggYWRkZWQNCmluIHRoZSBjb2NrcGl0Lg0KDQpSeWFuDQoNCk9uIFdlZCwgSnVsIDEs IDIwMDkgYXQgNjoxNiBQTSwgV2lsbDQyIDx3aWxsQGNjdGMubmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiAtLT4g UGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQgYnk6ICJXaWxsNDIiIDx3aWxsQGNjdGMubmV0 Pg0KPg0KPiBbcXVvdGU9ImdlbmVyYW1ibyhhdCltc24uY29tIl0gIGFnYWluLCB0byBxdW90ZSBX YWxkbywgIkkgZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCB0byBiZQ0KPiBhIHN0aWNrbGVyIGZvciAgYWNjdXJhY3kiIGJ1 dCBtb3ZpbmcgdGhlIHdpbmcgYXJvdW5kIGlzIG1vdmluZyB0aGUgY2VudGVyIG9mDQo+IGxpZnQg YXJvdW5kLCBub3QgIHRoZSBDRy4NCj4NCj4gIEdlbmUNCj4NCj4gPiAgICAtLS0NCj4NCj4NCj4g TW92aW5nIHRoZSB3aW5nIGRvZXMgbW92ZSB0aGUgY2VudGVyIG9mIGxpZnQ7IGl0IGFsc28gbW92 ZXMgdGhlIENHIGFzIGENCj4gcmVzdWx0IG9mIHRoZSBuZXcgIm1vbWVudCIgb2YgdGhlIHdpbmcg aXRzZWxmLiBJZiBpbiBkb3VidCwgbG9vayBhdCBhIHdlaWdodA0KPiBhbmQgYmFsYW5jZSB3b3Jr IHNoZWV0IHRvIGNvbmZpcm0uDQo+DQo+IEFuZCBjZXJ0YWlubHksIG1vdmluZyBhIGxpZ2h0ZXIg ZW5naW5lIGZvcndhcmQgbW92ZXMgdGhlIENHIGZvcndhcmQgYXMgY2FuDQo+IGJlIG5vdGVkIGJ5 IHRoZSBleHRyZW1lbHkgbG9uZyBub3NlcyBvbiB0dXJiaW5lIGNvbnZlcnNpb25zLCBob3dldmVy IG5vbmUgb2YNCj4gdGhpcyBhZGRyZXNzZXMgdGhlIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IgbG9uZ2VyIGZ1c2VsYWdl cyBmb3IgdGhlICJsaWdodGVyIiBlbmdpbmVkDQo+IFBpZXRzLg0KPg0KPiBJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGUg ZXh0ZW5kZWQgZW5naW5lIG1vdW50IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgc2ltcGxlciBhbnN3ZXIgdGhhbiBhDQo+ IGRpZmZlcmVudCBmdXNlbGFnZSBsZW5ndGg7ICBjZXJ0YWlubHkgbW92aW5nIHRoZSB3aW5nIGFm dCBzZWVtcyBhIHJlYXNvbmFibGUNCj4gc29sdXRpb24gdG8gYW4gb3Zlci13ZWlnaHQgcGlsb3Qu DQo+DQo+IFdpbGwNCj4NCj4NCg0K ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending From: Rick Holland I glued all gussets before joining the sides but I did leave off the plywood sides until the entire fuselage was nearly complete including seats and all controls. Made it much easier to get to everything. rick On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:29 PM, wrote: > Did mine without the gussets in place and it worked out great. I also > read of a similar account with gussets in place and the guy fount it > impossible to get the bend and eventually ended up having some wood relieve > the stress by breaking. I guess its a matter of who's account one is willing > to follow and which suggestions to go > > I have had no problems out of mine and did not have to stretch or stress > the gussets to bend so they now act as a force that holds the bend and > resists the tendency for the bent wood to return to shape. > > John > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or54393/aol?redir > http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See > yours in just 2 easy steps!* > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:39 PM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length "Artists supply truth." Do not archive John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Jul 1, 2009, at 7:57 PM, amsafetyc@aol.com wrote: > > "Anyone can provide accuracy" > ------Original Message------ > From: Will42 > Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > To: Pietenpol builders Board > ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board > Sent: Jul 1, 2009 7:16 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length > > > [quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want > to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving > the center of lift around, not the CG. > > Gene > >> --- > > > Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG > as a result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, > look at a weight and balance work sheet to confirm. > > And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward > as can be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, > however none of this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for > the "lighter" engined Piets. > > It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a > different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a > reasonable solution to an over-weight pilot. > > Will > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251025#251025 > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: "Pieti Lowell" I built the long Piet with a Funk powered engine ( Ford B block ) the engine weight was 257 Lbs. The radiator under the cowl. It flys all day at 87 MPH with 2 aboard. The Piet I have now is the short version with a Funk engine, ( upside down ) and the radiator in the standard position. It would fly 10 MPH slower with 2 aboard, After increasing the HP to over 80 I can now fly at 87 MPH, Take your pick, longer , gives pilot more leg room. Both flys great. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251057#251057 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:09 PM PST US From: "Dick N." Subject: Pietenpol-List: OSH I waited too long and forgot about the camping reservations thru Bill Rewey. Is anyone else planning on pre reserving space for camping at OSH? Dick N. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! From: "TOPGUN" if you look at the chart above you can see the tq and hp. i inserted an excel file, but it bunched all the numbers together......... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251064#251064 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:29 PM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length Doesn't moving the wing back move the CG forward relative to the leading edge? Moving the wing back creates a longer nose moment. On Jul 1, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: > > > > The center of gravity of the entire airplane needs to be somewhere > between > about 15% and 33% of the way between the leading edge and trailing > edge of > the wing, in order for the plane to have sufficient stability. If > the CG is > forward of that range, the tail has insufficent force to be able to > raise > the nose to a positive angle of attack and no lift can be > generated. If the > CG is aft of that range, the plane will have "divergent stability" > and will > be uncontrollable. > > If the CG is too far aft, you can move it forward by moving > something heavy > (say, the engine, for example) further forward. > > Did you ever sit on a seesaw as a kid? If there was a fat kid > sitting on > the other end, you were left in the air, with your feet dangling > helplessly. > If you could only move a bit further away from the fulcrum, you could > balance his mass. > > Take my word for it - one way to balance a tail-heavy Pietenpol with > a light > engine is to make the engine mount longer (within limits - too long > and you > start having directional stability issues, requiring a larger vertical > tail). Far easier is to shift the wing aft. Even though moving the > wing > aft tends to move the CG aft as well (just slightly, due to the mass > of the > wing which has moved aft) it moves the acceptable CG range aft and > allows > the CG to fall within the acceptable range. Very few airplane > designs can > be modified in this way - it is one of the great advantages of the > Pietenpol > design. The GN-1 cannot be shifted like the Pietenpol can - there > your only > choice is to move the engine, add ballast or lose weight yourself. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Will42 > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:53 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length > > > "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" > > Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving > the wing. > > > My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter > engines > ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. > > Will > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length From: amsafetyc@aol.com Tm93IHlvdSdyZSBsZWFybmluZw0KDQpIZSBpcyBxdWl0ZSByaWdodCB5b3Uga25vdw0KDQpTbyBu aWNlIHRvIGhhdmUgbWV0IHlvdSBNci4gQnJvd24NCg0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgVmVyaXpvbiBX aXJlbGVzcyBCbGFja0JlcnJ5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBK b2huIEhvZm1hbm4gPGpob2ZtYW5uQHJlZXNncm91cGluYy5jb20+DQoNCkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMSBK dWwgMjAwOSAyMDoyOTowOSANClRvOiA8cGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClN1 YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogUmU6IEZ1c2VsYWdlIGxlbmd0aA0KDQoNCiJBcnRp c3RzIHN1cHBseSB0cnV0aC4iDQoNCkRvIG5vdCBhcmNoaXZlDQoNCg0KSm9obiBIb2ZtYW5uDQpW aWNlLVByZXNpZGVudCwgSW5mb3JtYXRpb24gVGVjaG5vbG9neQ0KVGhlIFJlZXMgR3JvdXAsIElu Yy4NCjI4MTAgQ3Jvc3Nyb2FkcyBEcml2ZSwgU3RlIDM4MDANCk1hZGlzb24sIFdJIDUzNzE4DQpQ aG9uZTogNjA4LjQ0My4yNDY4IGV4dCAxNTANCkZheDogNjA4LjQ0My4yNDc0DQpFbWFpbDogamhv Zm1hbm5AcmVlc2dyb3VwaW5jLmNvbQ0KDQpPbiBKdWwgMSwgMjAwOSwgYXQgNzo1NyBQTSwgYW1z YWZldHljQGFvbC5jb20gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gLS0+IFBpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9z dGVkIGJ5OiBhbXNhZmV0eWNAYW9sLmNvbQ0KPg0KPiAiQW55b25lIGNhbiBwcm92aWRlIGFjY3Vy YWN5Ig0KPiAtLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IFdpbGw0Mg0KPiBT ZW5kZXI6IG93bmVyLXBpZXRlbnBvbC1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQo+IFRvOiBQ aWV0ZW5wb2wgYnVpbGRlcnMgQm9hcmQNCj4gUmVwbHlUbzogUGlldGVucG9sIGJ1aWxkZXJzIEJv YXJkDQo+IFNlbnQ6IEp1bCAxLCAyMDA5IDc6MTYgUE0NCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUGlldGVucG9sLUxp c3Q6IFJlOiBGdXNlbGFnZSBsZW5ndGgNCj4NCj4gLS0+IFBpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2Ug cG9zdGVkIGJ5OiAiV2lsbDQyIiA8d2lsbEBjY3RjLm5ldD4NCj4NCj4gW3F1b3RlPSJnZW5lcmFt Ym8oYXQpbXNuLmNvbSJdICBhZ2FpbiwgdG8gcXVvdGUgV2FsZG8sICJJIGRvbid0IHdhbnQgIA0K PiB0byBiZSBhIHN0aWNrbGVyIGZvciAgYWNjdXJhY3kiIGJ1dCBtb3ZpbmcgdGhlIHdpbmcgYXJv dW5kIGlzIG1vdmluZyAgDQo+IHRoZSBjZW50ZXIgb2YgbGlmdCBhcm91bmQsIG5vdCAgdGhlIENH Lg0KPg0KPiBHZW5lDQo+DQo+PiAgIC0tLQ0KPg0KPg0KPiBNb3ZpbmcgdGhlIHdpbmcgZG9lcyBt b3ZlIHRoZSBjZW50ZXIgb2YgbGlmdDsgaXQgYWxzbyBtb3ZlcyB0aGUgQ0cgIA0KPiBhcyBhIHJl c3VsdCBvZiB0aGUgbmV3ICJtb21lbnQiIG9mIHRoZSB3aW5nIGl0c2VsZi4gSWYgaW4gZG91YnQs ICANCj4gbG9vayBhdCBhIHdlaWdodCBhbmQgYmFsYW5jZSB3b3JrIHNoZWV0IHRvIGNvbmZpcm0u DQo+DQo+IEFuZCBjZXJ0YWlubHksIG1vdmluZyBhIGxpZ2h0ZXIgZW5naW5lIGZvcndhcmQgbW92 ZXMgdGhlIENHIGZvcndhcmQgIA0KPiBhcyBjYW4gYmUgbm90ZWQgYnkgdGhlIGV4dHJlbWVseSBs b25nIG5vc2VzIG9uIHR1cmJpbmUgY29udmVyc2lvbnMsICANCj4gaG93ZXZlciBub25lIG9mIHRo aXMgYWRkcmVzc2VzIHRoZSByZWFzb24gZm9yIGxvbmdlciBmdXNlbGFnZXMgZm9yICANCj4gdGhl ICJsaWdodGVyIiBlbmdpbmVkIFBpZXRzLg0KPg0KPiBJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGUgZXh0ZW5kZWQgZW5n aW5lIG1vdW50IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgc2ltcGxlciBhbnN3ZXIgdGhhbiBhICANCj4gZGlmZmVyZW50 IGZ1c2VsYWdlIGxlbmd0aDsgIGNlcnRhaW5seSBtb3ZpbmcgdGhlIHdpbmcgYWZ0IHNlZW1zIGEg IA0KPiByZWFzb25hYmxlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRvIGFuIG92ZXItd2VpZ2h0IHBpbG90Lg0KPg0KPiBX aWxsDQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+IFJlYWQgdGhpcyB0b3BpYyBvbmxpbmUgaGVyZToNCj4NCj4gaHR0 cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL3ZpZXd0b3BpYy5waHA/cD0yNTEwMjUjMjUxMDI1DQo+ DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+DQo+IFNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9u IFdpcmVsZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVycnkNCj4NCj4NCj4NCj4NCj4NCg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:07 PM PST US From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead from Minneapolis area? Anyone interested in flying down to Brodhead from MPLS area? I have plane and tentatively plan to fly down Friday and return home Saturday. Would be interested in someone who'd be willing to pitch in for fuel=2C time... Tom B. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:48 PM PST US From: Jim Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seeing the instruments Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Good message Oscar, I have to agree with you and Jack and Bill and all the others that have commented on modifications to the Piet. I still think that maybe the best modification to a Piet might be to add a foot length to each wing to help offset Jack's 96 degree weather. Of course that then means checking wing s par strength, etc. My Piet is being built to the plans (long fuselage) with a Corvair engine and since I am only 5 feet 6 inches and a stout 185 I think I should be okay. By the way I have the landing gear legs on it now but have to finish shock struts before I can remove the steel bar between them. Looking forward to seeing all the Piets at Brodhead this year. Jim B. On Jun 30, 2009, taildrags@hotmail.com wrote: Jim; I worried about seeing the instruments. I need "cheaters" or bifocals to see things up close and the restrictions on my airman medical say I need to have corrective lenses when I fly. I wear contact lenses for distant vision but for near vision I always carry reading glasses with me when I fly but I've never had occasion to take them out because I can always see what needs to be seen without them. I have NO digital displays or instruments but if I did, I might need those readers to see some of the text. With analog gauges, a quick glance shows me what I need to know without hesitating or guessing. Can you tell that I'm a "steam gauge" type of guy? ;o) When I fly X-C, I fly with a kneeboard and a folded sectional, with my route of flight laid out and highlighted. I have not had any problem seeing my next checkpoint on the chart, down on my knee in the cockpit. I'm in a little bit of trouble if I have to read the airport info or radio frequencies in tiny print on the chart or if I need to read the tenths and hundredths of tach time in the little window on the tach but, oddly enough, I have no trouble dialing in the altimeter reading (barometric pressure) in the Kollsman window. I can read every gauge on the panel and everything in the panel of 41CC is a dial instrument, set in the stock configuration per plans, and with the green-yellow-red ranges marked on the gauges. Even a child can tell if everything is in the green and that's all you need to see in flight. When you're flying a Piet, the first one or two digits on the right of any gauge readout don't interest you anyway ;o) Don't over-think this stuff. If you sit in the shop and worry about what-ifs, you'll worry yourself silly and you'll never finish the airplane. I am also a scuba diver and I tend to use the same philosophy in my dive gear... simple and lean. I have to laugh as I watch gadget freaks waddle off with things hanging from clips and lanyards all over their suits and BCs, and with plotters and aids and gizmos on every D-ring and strap... and they get so consumed with what might happen that they never enjoy the dive. Me, I fly the airplane and just check the gauges to confirm what the airplane and engine are telling me. The Piet talks real pretty and sweet, and only an occasional glance at the gauges is needed to confirm what the airplane tells you. I never thought I'd say this since I'm an engineer and a detailer, CAD designer and an experimenter, but the Piet design is well proven for over 80 years now, so I'm going to join the chorus and here goes: "build it to the plans and you'll do just fine!" Any changes you want to make, you can make after you fly off those test hours or after you start your NEXT Piet and are enjoying flying your first one!!!! Yes, there are repeat offenders on this list... I already have a set of landing gear and a Corvair engine and prop for my next Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:52 PM PST US From: Jim Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seeing the instruments Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Hi again Oscar; Forgot to comment on seeing the instruments. I don't need glasses for distance but do need reading glasses for seeing up close. Thats why I have slanted my instrument panel so it is 1 inch back at the top which angle helps me see it a little better. Probably the same effect leaning back the rear seat would have. Jim On Jun 30, 2009, taildrags@hotmail.com wrote: Jim; I worried about seeing the instruments. I need "cheaters" or bifocals to see things up close and the restrictions on my airman medical say I need to have corrective lenses when I fly. I wear contact lenses for distant vision but for near vision I always carry reading glasses with me when I fly but I've never had occasion to take them out because I can always see what needs to be seen without them. I have NO digital displays or instruments but if I did, I might need those readers to see some of the text. With analog gauges, a quick glance shows me what I need to know without hesitating or guessing. Can you tell that I'm a "steam gauge" type of guy? ;o) When I fly X-C, I fly with a kneeboard and a folded sectional, with my route of flight laid out and highlighted. I have not had any problem seeing my next checkpoint on the chart, down on my knee in the cockpit. I'm in a little bit of trouble if I have to read the airport info or radio frequencies in tiny print on the chart or if I need to read the tenths and hundredths of tach time in the little window on the tach but, oddly enough, I have no trouble dialing in the altimeter reading (barometric pressure) in the Kollsman window. I can read every gauge on the panel and everything in the panel of 41CC is a dial instrument, set in the stock configuration per plans, and with the green-yellow-red ranges marked on the gauges. Even a child can tell if everything is in the green and that's all you need to see in flight. When you're flying a Piet, the first one or two digits on the right of any gauge readout don't interest you anyway ;o) Don't over-think this stuff. If you sit in the shop and worry about what-ifs, you'll worry yourself silly and you'll never finish the airplane. I am also a scuba diver and I tend to use the same philosophy in my dive gear... simple and lean. I have to laugh as I watch gadget freaks waddle off with things hanging from clips and lanyards all over their suits and BCs, and with plotters and aids and gizmos on every D-ring and strap... and they get so consumed with what might happen that they never enjoy the dive. Me, I fly the airplane and just check the gauges to confirm what the airplane and engine are telling me. The Piet talks real pretty and sweet, and only an occasional glance at the gauges is needed to confirm what the airplane tells you. I never thought I'd say this since I'm an engineer and a detailer, CAD designer and an experimenter, but the Piet design is well proven for over 80 years now, so I'm going to join the chorus and here goes: "build it to the plans and you'll do just fine!" Any changes you want to make, you can make after you fly off those test hours or after you start your NEXT Piet and are enjoying flying your first one!!!! Yes, there are repeat offenders on this list... I already have a set of landing gear and a Corvair engine and prop for my next Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:22 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "pietenpol-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Pietenpol-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Pietenpol-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:06 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:45 PM PST US From: Mike Tunnicliffe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Hi, I am using the 1.5 mm okume for sheeting the leading edge of the wing, I feel it is too weak for any other part of a pietenpol. Okume ply seems to be used for the structure of several French designs that require light weight, but of course they would be engineered to take account of the lower strength of the ply. It is soft and easily dented. Regards Mike T. ps. I'm assembling the wooden undercart and would like to fit brakes, the problem is stopping the axle turning whilst not restricting the axle movement, I have seen the peg and socket idea but wondered if there were any alternatives that someone may have come up with? ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Pieters, About 1/8 and 1/16 plywood. found a source of OKUME plywood. There are two grades ( and prices) for the 1/8th. European $51.20 a sheet 4x8, Asian $26.00. For 1/16th it's $36.80 for a 4x8 sheet. 1/4 in 4x8 sheet $53.60 Have anyone of you used this type wood or know of it's use in our airplane building? The broker did mention how light this wood is. Compared to Wicks prices, seems unreal Shall we have some Piet gab on this subject? Corky ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.