---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/04/09: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:56 AM - Re: Wt/Bal (airlion@bellsouth.net) 2. 05:08 AM - Re: Wt/Bal (Jack Phillips) 3. 06:12 AM - Re: Riblett 612 CoG Range (johnwoods@westnet.com.au) 4. 07:11 AM - Re: Riblett 612 CoG Range (Isablcorky@aol.com) 5. 08:13 AM - Re: Riblett 612 CoG Range (johnwoods@westnet.com.au) 6. 08:22 AM - Re: T-88 (Michael Silvius) 7. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Keeping the C.G. from getting to far aft (Michael Silvius) 8. 08:52 AM - Re: T-88 (Mark Roberts) 9. 09:40 AM - Re: T-88 (Michael Silvius) 10. 09:44 AM - Re: T-88 () 11. 09:50 AM - Re: T-88 (Mark Roberts) 12. 10:11 AM - Re: Riblett 612 CoG Range (Isablcorky@aol.com) 13. 10:27 AM - Mid West wood source (bill.kipp) 14. 12:25 PM - Re: Mid West wood source (John Hofmann) 15. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage length (Dan Yocum) 16. 01:38 PM - Re: Mid West wood source (Dan Yocum) 17. 02:39 PM - AIrfoil can of worms? (Mark Roberts) 18. 02:57 PM - Brodhead/AirVenture (x GOYENI) 19. 03:09 PM - Re: Mid West wood source (Tim Willis) 20. 03:11 PM - Re: Brodhead/AirVenture (Tim Willis) 21. 03:21 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Jeff Boatright) 22. 03:25 PM - Re: Brodhead/AirVenture (Jeff Boatright) 23. 03:40 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Tim Willis) 24. 03:54 PM - Re: Riblett 612 CoG Range (Wizzard187@aol.com) 25. 04:09 PM - Brodhead/Airventure (x GOYENI) 26. 04:31 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Mark Roberts) 27. 04:51 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Mark Roberts) 28. 05:03 PM - Re: Riblett 612 CoG Range (Tim Willis) 29. 06:52 PM - Re: Brodhead/AirVenture (amsafetyc@aol.com) 30. 06:56 PM - Re: T-88 (amsafetyc@aol.com) 31. 07:53 PM - Re: Mid West wood source (Paul N. Peckham) 32. 08:09 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Pieti Lowell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:36 AM PST US From: airlion@bellsouth.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wt/Bal Jack, I finally got my cg in limits by moving my wings back 4 inches. It looks kind of rakish now and the weight came in at 758 lbs. I think you should start now for Brodhead. He he. I will see you there in my cessna 140. Cheers, Gardiner Mason -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Jack Phillips" > > Hi Larry, > > > > You are exactly right. When I first built my Piet, I did the weighing and > found my CG. Weight on the tailwheel (empty, in 3-pt position) was a nice > light 20 lbs. But the CG was too far aft with respect to the wing cord and > I moved the wing another 2-1/2" aft, putting the CG well within the > acceptable range as a percentage of wing cord, but now the weight on the > tailwheel in the 3 pt position was nearly 30 lbs. With the top longerons > level, the plane will nearly balance. Weight on the tailwheel (empty) with > the longerons level is only a couple of pounds. > > > > Not that this means anything, since with my 200 lb bulk on board, the weight > on the tailwheel is substantial. The extra 5-10 lbs that moving the wing > aft put on the tailwheel is not noticeable compared to the punishment my fat > butt gives it. > > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Anxiously awaiting passage of the next 19 days so we can get to Brodhead > > > > _____ > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence > Williams > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:18 AM > To: Pietlist > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wt/Bal > > > > > More beating a dead horse............... > > > > If you have built your very own Pietenpol and have located your LG where you > think it should be, doesn't moving your wing aft to aquire the correct CofG > put a lot more weight on the tailwheel? Remember that yu're moving the > center of mass aft in relation to the LG. It might be a factor in how tight > a turn you could make taxiing and how much strain you put on your back when > lifting the tail to turn the plane around as well as how soon the tail comes > up on T.O.. Seems like the old guys said that an empty Air Camper should > balance on it's mains when the tail is lifted with the longerons level. > > > > Nice explaination on CG, Don! > > > > WOWEE!!! 21 days to go! > > > > Larry xcg, xcmr, epp > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:31 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wt/Bal 18 more days. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 7:56 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wt/Bal Jack, I finally got my cg in limits by moving my wings back 4 inches. It looks kind of rakish now and the weight came in at 758 lbs. I think you should start now for Brodhead. He he. I will see you there in my cessna 140. Cheers, Gardiner Mason -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Jack Phillips" > > Hi Larry, > > > You are exactly right. When I first built my Piet, I did the weighing and > found my CG. Weight on the tailwheel (empty, in 3-pt position) was a nice > light 20 lbs. But the CG was too far aft with respect to the wing cord and > I moved the wing another 2-1/2" aft, putting the CG well within the > acceptable range as a percentage of wing cord, but now the weight on the > tailwheel in the 3 pt position was nearly 30 lbs. With the top longerons > level, the plane will nearly balance. Weight on the tailwheel (empty) with > the longerons level is only a couple of pounds. > > > Not that this means anything, since with my 200 lb bulk on board, the weight > on the tailwheel is substantial. The extra 5-10 lbs that moving the wing > aft put on the tailwheel is not noticeable compared to the punishment my fat > butt gives it. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Anxiously awaiting passage of the next 19 days so we can get to Brodhead > > > _____ > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence > Williams > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:18 AM > To: Pietlist > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wt/Bal > > > More beating a dead horse............... > > > If you have built your very own Pietenpol and have located your LG where you > think it should be, doesn't moving your wing aft to aquire the correct CofG > put a lot more weight on the tailwheel? Remember that yu're moving the > center of mass aft in relation to the LG. It might be a factor in how tight > a turn you could make taxiing and how much strain you put on your back when > lifting the tail to turn the plane around as well as how soon the tail comes > up on T.O.. Seems like the old guys said that an empty Air Camper should > balance on it's mains when the tail is lifted with the longerons level. > > > Nice explaination on CG, Don! > > > WOWEE!!! 21 days to go! > > > Larry xcg, xcmr, epp > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:27 AM PST US From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range For those who are using the Riblett airfoil, it should be ke pt in mind tha t the CoG range for the 612 is different to the Pietenpol airfoil. There are at least three of us using the 612 over here in Australia and I h ave been advised that Mr Riblett recommends a CoG range of 10.8" to 16.8" f rom the LE, which is between 18%=C2-and 28% . Is any one who has=C2-a flying Pietenpol=C2-with the 612 airfoil able t o =C2-relate th eir experience on this? JohnW ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:30 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Sir, Do you have a flying Piet with the 612 airfoil or are you in the building process? Corky **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JulystepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:58 AM PST US From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Corky, I'm still building and a long way from completion, as work time keeps inter fering with=C2-building time. I have built my 612 ribs but have to take a hiatus from building for a few months. I posted the co-ordinates for the Riblett 612, 613.5 and Pietenpol sections a while ago. They can be found if you do a search in Matronics' Pietenpol list or I can send to you off list. Roman Buk olt and Pieti Lowell are two gentlemen who may be able to give yo u more information on the Riblett airfoil. JohnW ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 4 July, 2009 9:58:34 PM GMT +08:00 Perth Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Sir, Do you have a flying Piet with the 612 airfoil or are you in the building p rocess? Corky A Good Credit Score is 70001367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport. com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62>S ============== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:17 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 Most decent boat builder/marine supply stores carry it. Here on the right coast Hamilton Marine and West Marine have it. Michael in Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Roberts I was wondering if there might be any place around here (Fresno CA) that would have carried it. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:42 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Keeping the C.G. from getting to far aft Well if you do have to move the gear it should not be to difficult. The way DJ set that one up with the cradle that holds the gear on the fuse you could move the whole thing forward if you needed to. http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-05-02.htm Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "skellytown flyer" > > The weight and balance is concerning me as I know I have very light tail right now with the wings off and the engine on.the modified GN-1 I picked up. DJ did some size changes for his height and I fit pretty good with my long legs.I guess if I were to build one from scratch I might look into moving the main gear forward but after completion I'll finally know if it is necessary.I would guess the main thing if the CG is OK will be to really be careful hitting the brakes.might even need to do something like the Cessna 140's had moving the wheels forward but I'm not sure that would be practical with the Cub gear.but I could probably build new main legs with a forward angle.but that would move wheel weight forward as well as helping it to be less likely to nose over. maybe it'll be perfect-I sure hope so.I would rather put the battery under the back seat or even behind it than angle the cabanes forward or back either one.Raymond > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 From: Mark Roberts West Marine! We do have one of those in town, so I'll try them. I looked on their website yesterday and saw a bunch of others, but not T-88... Maybe the store will stock it and anyway. Thanks for letting me know that West Marine carries it there. I'll see if they are open on the 4th of July! Mark On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Michael Silvius wrote: > Most decent boat builder/marine supply stores carry it. Here on the right > coast Hamilton Marine and West Marine have it. > > Michael in Maine > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark Roberts > > I was wondering if there might be any place around here (Fresno CA) that > would have carried it. > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:25 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 Mark: Personally I have always preferred the MAS brand products. http://www.masepoxies.com West also carries it. I have used it extensively for over 15 yrs and have no regrets. One major advantage of the MAS is you do not need to sand between coats as the slow stuf does not have the amine blush. http://www.masepoxies.com/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=prodbrws.publicde tail&productid=69474 I also tends to run a bit thinner than the T88 which I prefer. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Roberts West Marine! We do have one of those in town, so I'll try them. I looked on their website yesterday and saw a bunch of others, but not T-88... Maybe the store will stock it and anyway. Thanks for letting me know that West Marine carries it there. I'll see if they are open on the 4th of July! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:52 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 If there is a Woodcrafters near you they stock it as well, at least here in Virginia. Rodney Hall ---- Mark Roberts wrote: > West Marine! We do have one of those in town, so I'll try them. I looked on > their website yesterday and saw a bunch of others, but not T-88... Maybe the > store will stock it and anyway. > Thanks for letting me know that West Marine carries it there. I'll see if > they are open on the 4th of July! > > Mark > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Michael Silvius wrote: > > > Most decent boat builder/marine supply stores carry it. Here on the right > > coast Hamilton Marine and West Marine have it. > > > > Michael in Maine > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Mark Roberts > > > > I was wondering if there might be any place around here (Fresno CA) that > > would have carried it. > > > > * > > > > * > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 From: Mark Roberts Thanks Michael. I'll have a look! On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Michael Silvius wrote: > Mark: > > Personally I have always preferred the MAS brand products. > http://www.masepoxies.com > West also carries it. I have used it extensively for over 15 yrs and have > no regrets. One major advantage of the MAS is you do not need to sand > between coats as the slow stuf does not have the amine blush. > > http://www.masepoxies.com/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=prodbrws.publicdetail&productid=69474 > I also tends to run a bit thinner than the T88 which I prefer. > > Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark Roberts > > West Marine! We do have one of those in town, so I'll try them. I looked on > their website yesterday and saw a bunch of others, but not T-88... Maybe the > store will stock it and anyway. > Thanks for letting me know that West Marine carries it there. I'll see if > they are open on the 4th of July! > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:35 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Thanks for your reply John, Pretty quick all the way from Australia. I'm just completing the Aeronca T-65 (L-3) and will keep for personal flying but am preparing to build my 3rd Piet . That is my third start as I did not complete the second one. Family health prompted me to rid it but all has worked out so I'll try again. My first Piet 41CC, now owned by Oscar Zuniger of San Antonio, flew well and I enjoyed flying it but it had one characteristic I didn't particularly like. When you flared it dropped like a brick. That's perfectly all right and safe as long as you prepare for it and keep your head out of your ass. I have had reports about the 612 airfoil that gives a Piet a little float after round out. That's what I want in my next Piet. If you can elaborate on this subject further I would sure like to hear from you. Also I would like those dimensions on both those Ribletts so I can lay out my rib jig board. Had a real good Aussie friend once after WWII we were billetted in same hotel in Tokyo. His job was to entertain Aussie pilots for a fat cat week in Tokyo. Of course he couldn't let those bloody bastards drink alone. Old Badger as a result never drew a sober breath the year I knew him and was a great guy and friend. He was early in the fighter fights in New Guinnie (sp) Corky **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JulystepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:42 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mid West wood source From: "bill.kipp" I live about 80 miles west of Chicago. Has any builder in the area found a local source for either spruce or doug fir? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251475#251475 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:20 PM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mid West wood source Bill, McCormick Lumber in Madison, WI stocks rough cut sitka spruce. Call them ahead to check supply. http://www.mccormicklumber.com/ -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Jul 4, 2009, at 12:27 PM, bill.kipp wrote: > > > > I live about 80 miles west of Chicago. Has any builder in the area > found a local source for either spruce or doug fir? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251475#251475 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:24 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length Jack, Jack Phillips wrote: > > Dan, > > Have you run a weight and balance to see where your CG (with you in the > airplane) is with respect to the cord of the wing? Not yet - I haven't even laid hands on 'er. The current owner is flying in for Oshkosh and he'll deliver it to me at the end of the show. When I get around to it I'll put 'er on the scales and see what she comes out to be. > > Moving the wing is very simple, if you made the diagonal cabane struts with > some adjustment for length. The rest of the bracing wires have enough > adjustment in the turnbuckles. Like many others on the list, my wing is aft > of vertical by 4". Anticipating that I would have an aft CG problem, I > built my cabane diagonals with adjustment built in. I noticed that when I was looking at your plane. From the photos I've seen N8031 doesn't have those adjustments. Maybe that will be something I can do during the cold winter months... Thanks for the reply, Dan > > Jack Phillips > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Yocum > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:07 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length > > > [Let's try this again with a link to the image instead of the image - my > apologies to everyone on 9600 baud modems] > > > Jack, > > Jack Phillips wrote: > >> tail). Far easier is to shift the wing aft. Even though moving the wing >> aft tends to move the CG aft as well (just slightly, due to the mass of > the >> wing which has moved aft) it moves the acceptable CG range aft and allows >> the CG to fall within the acceptable range. Very few airplane designs can >> be modified in this way - it is one of the great advantages of the > Pietenpol > > You and others have said in this thread that "it's easy to move the > wing." Please excuse the naivety of the following question but, "How > easy is it?" > > I can imagine that the forward bracing struts (ahead of the cabanes) > would have to be lengthened, all the strut attach brackets on the wings > and and fuselage would have to be replaced, and new wires would have to > be built if there's not enough play in the turnbuckles. Then there's > re-routing the fuel and pitot lines and opening the holes ahead of the > pilot's instrument panel for the those support wires... > > Or is it easier than what I'm imagining? > > The reason I ask is because it appears that N8031 has a CG issue. See > the image and look at the position of the elevator: > > http://5n429glenoak.homelinux.net/gallery/airplanes/DSC_4167 > > Every picture I've seen of her in cruise flight, the elevator is angled > a bit down. > > Thanks, > Dan > > -- > Dan Yocum > Fermilab 630.840.6509 > yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov > Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. > > > > > > > > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:52 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mid West wood source Bill, McCormick Lumber in Madison. The info is a bit old but they had certifiable aircraft spruce, rough cut, with much better prices than AS&S. I forwarded you an email I got from Alan Abel about their prices from Jan '08. Not sure what the prices are now-a-days. Dan bill.kipp wrote: > > I live about 80 miles west of Chicago. Has any builder in the area found a local source for either spruce or doug fir? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251475#251475 > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? From: Mark Roberts Well, after spending a few hours surfing the achieves related to the 612 verses the regular Piet airfoil, I am left with some questions (and a headache!) I downloaded the coordinates I found (at least for the 612) and the original Piet airfoil compared them in my CAD program. I see a few of you have opted to use the 612 airfoil on your builds and am curious about the actual dynamics of the flight characteristics. After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. I'd love a gentle flyer and I am not all that crazy about experimenting with stuff I know so little about, so I am inclined to stay with the original (especially since I have a jig arriving soon...). Just curious about the more recent thoughts regarding real world dynamics from you guys that are flying with the original airfoil... Hope this isn't redundant or a can of worms... Mark ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:13 PM PST US From: "x GOYENI " Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Hello everybody, Finally, I am going to Brodhead with my son Federico. We are arriving at noon on Friday and stay there until Sunday. I look forward to meet members of this list and enjoy the friendship and camaraderie of these events. Then, the entire week at AirVenture. See you there. Juan GOYENI URUGUAY ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:23 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mid West wood source I talked with one of the McCormicks on the phone about three weeks ago. He was quoting $9 per board foot for pickup at the yard. We were discussing true 1" thick X 9 in. wide Sitka Spruce, in lengths 16 to 18 feet. One board that width would work out to $6.75 per linear foot. And you can expect the quality to be excellent. This yard sells to boat builders and esp. iceboat builders. We did not discuss shipping, for at that time I intended to be in Madison later this month to pick it up. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Dan Yocum >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 3:38 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mid West wood source > > >Bill, > >McCormick Lumber in Madison. The info is a bit old but they had >certifiable aircraft spruce, rough cut, with much better prices than AS&S. > >I forwarded you an email I got from Alan Abel about their prices from >Jan '08. Not sure what the prices are now-a-days. > >Dan > > >bill.kipp wrote: >> >> I live about 80 miles west of Chicago. Has any builder in the area found a local source for either spruce or doug fir? >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251475#251475 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >-- >Dan Yocum >Fermilab 630.840.6509 >yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov >Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:23 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Juan, You will love it, and so will your son. The Pietenpolers are a great bunch of guys who will make you welcome, and you will add an international flavor to the affair. Bring pictures and questions... take away pictures and answers. Tim in central Texas do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: x GOYENI >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 4:56 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture > > > >Hello everybody, > >Finally, I am going to Brodhead with my son Federico. >We are arriving at noon on Friday and stay there until Sunday. >I look forward to meet members of this list and enjoy the friendship and >camaraderie of these events. >Then, the entire week at AirVenture. >See you there. > >Juan GOYENI >URUGUAY > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:37 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Mark, Our Piet had what I consider a sharp and unannounced stall. However, it has an aluminum leading edge wrap rather than the thing plywood as specified in the plans. When the fabric was shrunk, it pulled the aluminum down between the ribs in a very ugly fashion. The result is an even sharper nose than the Piet airfoil normally has. I added vortex generators and everything changed. The no-power stall is now about like a Cessna 172's or maybe even gentler. The power-on stall has noticeable burbling prior to the stall and a fairly gentle break. As you can tell from my description, this is an atypical Piet. But, every datum helps. Jeff >...After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet >airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to >the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, >but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking >about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, >and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe >give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. ... > >Mark -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:04 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Juan, That's GREAT! See you there! Jeff PS: You may get fewer responses to your email than normal as a lof of the US Americans are at BBQs today... >" > > >Hello everybody, >Finally, I am going to Brodhead with my son Federico. >We are arriving at noon on Friday and stay there until Sunday. >I look forward to meet members of this list and enjoy the friendship >and camaraderie of these events. >Then, the entire week at AirVenture. >See you there. >Juan GOYENI >URUGUAY -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:29 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Aha! VGs! Jeff, it sounds like you are very happy with their effects. Thus inquiring minds want to know: Were the VGs the ones you used the straight little plastic fins (100 to a box), or were they the truncated "V," perhaps made out of bent aluminum? How far behind the LE did you place them, and was that according to directions, or what? Did you also apply them to any controls, esp. the back of the VStab or near the LE of the rudder? Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Boatright >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 5:20 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > >Mark, > >Our Piet had what I consider a sharp and unannounced stall. However, >it has an aluminum leading edge wrap rather than the thing plywood as >specified in the plans. When the fabric was shrunk, it pulled the >aluminum down between the ribs in a very ugly fashion. The result is >an even sharper nose than the Piet airfoil normally has. > >I added vortex generators and everything changed. The no-power stall >is now about like a Cessna 172's or maybe even gentler. The power-on >stall has noticeable burbling prior to the stall and a fairly gentle >break. > >As you can tell from my description, this is an atypical Piet. But, >every datum helps. > >Jeff > > >>...After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet >>airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to >>the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, >>but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking >>about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, >>and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe >>give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. ... >> >>Mark > >-- >--- > >Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Ophthalmology >Emory University School of Medicine >Editor-in-Chief >Molecular Vision > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:42 PM PST US From: Wizzard187@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Pieters Is the 612 the what is used on aeronica? **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JulystepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:45 PM PST US From: "x GOYENI " Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/Airventure It is true Jeff, I did not remember that today is America's Independence Day. Congratulations to all Americans from the southern South America. Thanks Jeff and Tim for your posts. See you at Brodhead Juan GOYENI ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? From: Mark Roberts Oh Yes! Do tell! :o) Mark On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Tim Willis wrote: > timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > Aha! VGs! Jeff, it sounds like you are very happy with their effects. > Thus inquiring minds want to know: > > Were the VGs the ones you used the straight little plastic fins (100 to a > box), or were they the truncated "V," perhaps made out of bent aluminum? > > How far behind the LE did you place them, and was that according to > directions, or what? > > Did you also apply them to any controls, esp. the back of the VStab or near > the LE of the rudder? > > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Jeff Boatright > >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 5:20 PM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > > > > >Mark, > > > >Our Piet had what I consider a sharp and unannounced stall. However, > >it has an aluminum leading edge wrap rather than the thing plywood as > >specified in the plans. When the fabric was shrunk, it pulled the > >aluminum down between the ribs in a very ugly fashion. The result is > >an even sharper nose than the Piet airfoil normally has. > > > >I added vortex generators and everything changed. The no-power stall > >is now about like a Cessna 172's or maybe even gentler. The power-on > >stall has noticeable burbling prior to the stall and a fairly gentle > >break. > > > >As you can tell from my description, this is an atypical Piet. But, > >every datum helps. > > > >Jeff > > > > > >>...After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet > >>airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to > >>the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, > >>but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking > >>about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, > >>and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe > >>give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. ... > >> > >>Mark > > > >-- > >--- > > > >Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. > >Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > >Emory University School of Medicine > >Editor-in-Chief > >Molecular Vision > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? From: Mark Roberts Also, just spent the last 2 hours or so creating the 612 rib plot I found (if the coordinates are correct) into my CAD program and created a rib template for the 60" profile. Not sure if the plot is indeed the 612, as I only got the coordinates from a post on this list in the archives and they said they had found it on another aviation website, so if anyone has a verifiable set of plots, I'd like to check my work to see if it is indeed a 612. Regardless, here's a picture of the plot I made... Minus gussets... Mark On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Oh Yes! Do tell! :o) > Mark > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Tim Willis wrote: > >> timothywillis@earthlink.net> >> >> Aha! VGs! Jeff, it sounds like you are very happy with their effects. >> Thus inquiring minds want to know: >> >> Were the VGs the ones you used the straight little plastic fins (100 to a >> box), or were they the truncated "V," perhaps made out of bent aluminum? >> >> How far behind the LE did you place them, and was that according to >> directions, or what? >> >> Did you also apply them to any controls, esp. the back of the VStab or >> near the LE of the rudder? >> >> Tim in central TX >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Jeff Boatright >> >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 5:20 PM >> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? >> > >> > >> >Mark, >> > >> >Our Piet had what I consider a sharp and unannounced stall. However, >> >it has an aluminum leading edge wrap rather than the thing plywood as >> >specified in the plans. When the fabric was shrunk, it pulled the >> >aluminum down between the ribs in a very ugly fashion. The result is >> >an even sharper nose than the Piet airfoil normally has. >> > >> >I added vortex generators and everything changed. The no-power stall >> >is now about like a Cessna 172's or maybe even gentler. The power-on >> >stall has noticeable burbling prior to the stall and a fairly gentle >> >break. >> > >> >As you can tell from my description, this is an atypical Piet. But, >> >every datum helps. >> > >> >Jeff >> > >> > >> >>...After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet >> >>airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to >> >>the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, >> >>but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking >> >>about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, >> >>and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe >> >>give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. ... >> >> >> >>Mark >> > >> >-- >> >--- >> > >> >Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. >> >Associate Professor of Ophthalmology >> >Emory University School of Medicine >> >Editor-in-Chief >> >Molecular Vision >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:58 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Riblett airfoils were not used on any of the old classics. The Aeronca used a NACA 4412 airfoil. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Wizzard187@aol.com Sent: Jul 4, 2009 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 CoG Range Pieters Is the 612 the what is used on aeronica? A Good Credit Score is 700 or67230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture From: amsafetyc@aol.com Welcome Juan So nice to hear you are planning on joining us. I think you will enjoy the group and the time spent at Brodhead. This is my third year and I can't wait. The only problem is that once its over you have to wait an entire year to do it again. Safe travels and look forward to meeting you again for the first time. John Recine ------Original Message------ From: x GOYENI Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Jul 4, 2009 5:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Hello everybody, Finally, I am going to Brodhead with my son Federico. We are arriving at noon on Friday and stay there until Sunday. I look forward to meet members of this list and enjoy the friendship and camaraderie of these events. Then, the entire week at AirVenture. See you there. Juan GOYENI URUGUAY Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 From: amsafetyc@aol.com TWFyaw0KDQpJIGFtIGJ1aWxkaW5nIHdpdGggd2VzdCBzeXN0ZW1zIGVwb3h5IGFuZCBJIHRoaW5r IGl0cyBncmVhdC4gSSByZWNvbW1lbmQgaXQgaGlnaGx5IHRvIGFueW9uZSBidWlsZGluZy4gIEFs bCB0aGUgam9pbnRzIEkgaGF2ZSBjaGVja2VkIHRoZSBlcG94eSBpcyBhbHdheXMgc3Ryb25nZXIg dGhhbiB0aGUgd29vZC4gDQoNCkpvaG4NClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVsZXNzIEJs YWNrQmVycnkNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IE1hcmsgUm9iZXJ0 cyA8bWFyay5yYnJ0czFAZ21haWwuY29tPg0KDQpEYXRlOiBTYXQsIDQgSnVsIDIwMDkgMDg6NDg6 MjQgDQpUbzogPHBpZXRlbnBvbC1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUGll dGVucG9sLUxpc3Q6IFQtODgNCg0KDQpXZXN0IE1hcmluZSEgV2UgZG8gaGF2ZSBvbmUgb2YgdGhv c2UgaW4gdG93biwgc28gSSdsbCB0cnkgdGhlbS4gSSBsb29rZWQgb24NCnRoZWlyIHdlYnNpdGUg eWVzdGVyZGF5IGFuZCBzYXcgYSBidW5jaCBvZiBvdGhlcnMsIGJ1dCBub3QgVC04OC4uLiBNYXli ZSB0aGUNCnN0b3JlIHdpbGwgc3RvY2sgaXQgYW5kIGFueXdheS4NClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgbGV0dGlu ZyBtZSBrbm93IHRoYXQgV2VzdCBNYXJpbmUgY2FycmllcyBpdCB0aGVyZS4gSSdsbCBzZWUgaWYN CnRoZXkgYXJlIG9wZW4gb24gdGhlIDR0aCBvZiBKdWx5IQ0KDQpNYXJrDQoNCk9uIFNhdCwgSnVs IDQsIDIwMDkgYXQgOToxMyBBTSwgTWljaGFlbCBTaWx2aXVzIDxzaWx2aXVzQGd3aS5uZXQ+IHdy b3RlOg0KDQo+ICBNb3N0IGRlY2VudCBib2F0IGJ1aWxkZXIvbWFyaW5lIHN1cHBseSBzdG9yZXMg Y2FycnkgaXQuIEhlcmUgb24gdGhlIHJpZ2h0DQo+IGNvYXN0IEhhbWlsdG9uIE1hcmluZSBhbmQg V2VzdCBNYXJpbmUgaGF2ZSBpdC4NCj4NCj4gTWljaGFlbCBpbiBNYWluZQ0KPg0KPg0KPg0KPiAt LS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tDQo+ICpGcm9tOiogTWFyayBSb2JlcnRzIDxtYXJr LnJicnRzMUBnbWFpbC5jb20+DQo+DQo+IEkgd2FzIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiB0aGVyZSBtaWdodCBi ZSBhbnkgcGxhY2UgYXJvdW5kIGhlcmUgKEZyZXNubyBDQSkgdGhhdA0KPiB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIGNh cnJpZWQgaXQuDQo+DQo+ICoNCj4NCj4gKg0KPg0KPg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:44 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mid West wood source From: "Paul N. Peckham" Bill, Just to repeat what others have said, McCormick's would be your best choice. I was there about a month ago to pick up some 1/8" Okoume plywood for the Piet and I checked out the sitka spruce at the same time. Very nice boards and they would work well for you if you're using 3/4" spars. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251539#251539 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? From: "Pieti Lowell" Mark, I will talk about my 612 at my Brodhead Form ,with 3 years and a number of engines on this foil. If you are under 180 Lbs I will give you a demo you will never forget, The air foil you show is very close to the 612. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251541#251541 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.