---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/06/09: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:07 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (carson) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (gcardinal) 3. 05:39 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 4. 05:50 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Will42) 5. 06:13 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Gary Boothe) 6. 06:13 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Isablcorky@aol.com) 7. 06:40 AM - Re: Re: Will..AIrfoil can of worms? (Ed G.) 8. 09:12 AM - New builder: An Introduction (Ken Howe) 9. 10:08 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (K5YAC) 10. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Tim Willis) 11. 10:16 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Rick Holland) 12. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Will..AIrfoil can of worms? (Tim Willis) 13. 10:31 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Tim Willis) 14. 10:43 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Tim Willis) 15. 10:48 AM - Re: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (Tim Willis) 16. 11:09 AM - Brodhead visit - help camping?? (ldmill) 17. 11:10 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Jim) 18. 11:17 AM - Re: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (steven sadler) 19. 11:47 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Mark Roberts) 20. 11:47 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Mark Roberts) 21. 11:47 AM - Re: Brodhead visit - help camping?? (ldmill) 22. 12:39 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Mark Roberts) 23. 12:52 PM - Shirts Available (John Hofmann) 24. 12:57 PM - Re: found on craigslist () 25. 01:23 PM - Re: found on craigslist (Tim Willis) 26. 01:38 PM - Re: Shirts Available (Jeff Boatright) 27. 01:56 PM - Re: found on craigslist (Will42) 28. 02:02 PM - Re: Shirts Available (John Hofmann) 29. 03:20 PM - Re: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (Bill Church) 30. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Mark Roberts) 31. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Gary Boothe) 32. 07:15 PM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Dick N.) 33. 07:34 PM - Re: Brodhead visit - help camping?? (Dick N.) 34. 08:35 PM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (Ken Howe) 35. 10:18 PM - Brodhead camping - reunion newbe (Mike Simmons) 36. 11:15 PM - Re: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (Mike Tunnicliffe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? From: "carson" I'm using the riblett and a built up spar with a top and bottom spruce cap and 1/8 ply with spruce blocking between the caps,I made the spars bigger to fit the ribs my thinking being that the extra weight in the blocking would be around the same as putting it at the top as a filler. I can't see that this would degrade the strength of the spar Could someone with the knowledge on this, chime in with there thoughts? Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251696#251696 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:22 AM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? Go to Chris Tracy's website www.westcoastpiet.com and look under the "Construction" page where you will find a couple of good articles on built up spars. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "carson" Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? > > I'm using the riblett and a built up spar with a top and bottom spruce cap > and 1/8 ply with spruce blocking between the caps,I made the spars bigger > to fit the ribs my thinking being that the extra weight in the blocking > would be around the same as putting it at the top as a filler. > I can't see that this would degrade the strength of the spar > Could someone with the knowledge on this, chime in with there thoughts? > Thanks > Carson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251696#251696 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:29 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Mark, I don't believe anyone is making accusation but rather offering advice, as no one wants to see you waste time or loose the great enthusiasm and zeal you have for the project. As you stated the delay and study is more an intellectual journey until the budget comes around, then by all means continue you're research, questions and analysis. Good preparation makes for a good project. As I believe I speak for most, don't get too caught up on over thinking the project. As soon as the Jig and materials arrive its time to put the research and planning to work. Good luck and happy building. One warning though, the building process can become highly addictive. John **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! yExcfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? From: "Will42" "RIB CAPS: I was AMAZED to see a few minutes ago that on the ORIGINAL Piet drawings for the rib (dated 3-3-34) there are NO rib caps at all, front or rear of either spar. However, I believe everyone builds with several rib caps-- at least the two inner ones. Somewhere in the Piet drawings I recall, but cannot now find, an "improved rib drawing." On my ribs there is a front rib cap, as you call it, for both the front and rear spar. My ribs do NOT have a rear rib cap. Looking at pictures of other builds, I see that a few guys have only inner rib caps, while some have a front rib cap, and some apparently have all four rib caps. IMO, you will need at least the two inner rib caps to have a more solid build than a pure reliance upon compression struts engenders. " I'm lost as to what you are saying here; did you intend to say inner bracing instead of caps? In a built-up rib, I can't see how one could have a rib, at all, without a rib cap strip. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251711#251711 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:33 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? ".One warning though, the building process can become highly addictive." Very true! I got my morning 'fix' by spending 5 minutes tracing out the shape of my cabane attachments (wood cabanes), before heading off to a small road trip. That'll have to last 2 days!!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 5:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Mark, I don't believe anyone is making accusation but rather offering advice, as no one wants to see you waste time or loose the great enthusiasm and zeal you have for the project. As you stated the delay and study is more an intellectual journey until the budget comes around, then by all means continue you're research, questions and analysis. Good preparation makes for a good project. As I believe I speak for most, don't get too caught up on over thinking the project. As soon as the Jig and materials arrive its time to put the research and planning to work. Good luck and happy building. John _____ An Excellent Credit Score is398/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26 hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:33 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Amen on John's advice, but DON'T stop your mental work. It is a must with the building. Once building you will do as much building while trying to sleep at night, if you are like most of us who will admit it. This Piet building is very addictive. Also, if you begin a Piet, build it at a normal rate (slow) and finally complete it and best of all fly it, you will have an equilivant college education of most of today's institutions of higher learner. When one begins to build a Piet they have no conception as to how many areas of expertise and allied skills will be involved. Think each problem out completely before sanding, cutting or glueing. Learning is actually the correction of mistakes. On a project like this we can't afford to make unnecessary errors. Pardon my interference and soap boxing but I feel very strong on this subject. Corky **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! yExcfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:28 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Will..AIrfoil can of worms? Hi Will... The origional plans call for nailing through the top and bottom cap strips into the to spars to retain the ribs. I'm guessing this practic e came from WW1 planes which weren't expected to have a very long life span . Experience shows that over a long period of time the nails have a tendenc y to work their way out under the fabric and or rust causing problems later on. So=2C yes=2C the excepted practice has been to add verticles to the ri b in order to fasten the ribs to the spars. I added just the inner ones and T-88d them to the spars. Now I wish I had just put a couple nails in each verticle which would make it easier to make adjustments or even replace a r ib or a spar in the future. Put in the outer uprights dosen't seem to add a nything except weight ( my opinion). Hope that helps...Ed G. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? > From: will@cctc.net > Date: Mon=2C 6 Jul 2009 05:48:35 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > "RIB CAPS: I was AMAZED to see a few minutes ago that on the ORIGINAL Pie t drawings for the rib (dated 3-3-34) there are NO rib caps at all=2C front or rear of either spar. However=2C I believe everyone builds with several rib caps-- at least the two inner ones. Somewhere in the Piet drawings I re call=2C but cannot now find=2C an "improved rib drawing." On my ribs there is a front rib cap=2C as you call it=2C for both the front and rear spar. M y ribs do NOT have a rear rib cap. Looking at pictures of other builds=2C I see that a few guys have only inner rib caps=2C while some have a front ri b cap=2C and some apparently have all four rib caps. IMO=2C you will need a t least the two inner rib caps to have a more solid build than a pure relia nce upon compression struts engenders. " > I'm lost as to what you are saying here=3B did you intend to say inner br acing instead of caps? In a built-up rib=2C I can't see how one could have a rib=2C at all=2C without a rib cap strip. > > Will > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251711#251711 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction From: Ken Howe Hi All, This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old friends already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I got my 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two or three months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just start building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no schedule or expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have said, my enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into little sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying machine! When I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make something, then get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this way, but that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know more after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I fit into the plans build mock-up. 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more friendly for those time when I have a companion. Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make myself more visible. About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and college. But then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in the way. I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans from Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly married and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I settled down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I guess one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was my Piet plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With kids on their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, and 36 years after I started, I became a private pilot. I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I got out of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes from the Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out and not arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm believer in Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also believe in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have done in building their Piets. My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of pictures and fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my website, and soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been such and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 months ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up was in perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my ribs. Over the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, so last evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference - I bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local woodworker's store.) Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of questions. Ken Howe Beaverton, OR ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction From: "K5YAC" Welcome Ken! Looking forward to hearing about your progress. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251787#251787 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:29 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? Yes, they are bracings inherent in the rib itself. I missed altogether the point that Mark was using a built-up spar. I had in mind the braces that I did not see on his drawing, at least the way I looked at it. Thus I was describing not the spar, but the vertical elements-- the braces of the rib itself. These can vary from two to four braces (depending upon the builder), with each parallel to a spar. Take a look at the original rib drawing. No such elements. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Will42 >Sent: Jul 6, 2009 7:48 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? > > >"RIB CAPS: I was AMAZED to see a few minutes ago that on the ORIGINAL Piet drawings for the rib (dated 3-3-34) there are NO rib caps at all, front or rear of either spar. However, I believe everyone builds with several rib caps-- at least the two inner ones. Somewhere in the Piet drawings I recall, but cannot now find, an "improved rib drawing." On my ribs there is a front rib cap, as you call it, for both the front and rear spar. My ribs do NOT have a rear rib cap. Looking at pictures of other builds, I see that a few guys have only inner rib caps, while some have a front rib cap, and some apparently have all four rib caps. IMO, you will need at least the two inner rib caps to have a more solid build than a pure reliance upon compression struts engenders. " >I'm lost as to what you are saying here; did you intend to say inner bracing instead of caps? In a built-up rib, I can't see how one could have a rib, at all, without a rib cap strip. > >Will > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251711#251711 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction From: Rick Holland Ken We are almost carbon copies of each other (except for the being in the military part). Got my private license in 1968 in high school, got a Chemical Engineering degree but ended up writing software since 1980 (like most engineers I know). Started a long fuselage/Corvair Piet three years ago (would do the 612 airfoil if the wings weren't already built). Welcome to the Pietenpol clan, sounds like you are well informed and headed down the right road, and if you can possibly make get yourself to Broadhead (even if you have to hitchhike). It will be a religious experience, July 24 and 25, you will meet a good number of the people on this newsgroup. Rick On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Ken Howe wrote: > > > Hi All, > > This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old friends > already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I got my > 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two or three > months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just start > building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no schedule or > expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have said, my > enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into little > sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying machine! When > I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make something, then > get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this way, but > that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. > > About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. > Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know more > after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I fit into > the plans build mock-up. > > 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. > > Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? > > Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) > I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more friendly > for those time when I have a companion. > > Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. > > Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make myself > more visible. > > About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first > start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and college. But > then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in the way. > I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans from > Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly married > and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I settled > down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I guess > one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was my Piet > plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With kids on > their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, and 36 > years after I started, I became a private pilot. > > I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in > software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I got out > of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and > thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes from the > Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out and not > arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm believer in > Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also believe > in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have done in > building their Piets. > > My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of pictures and > fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my website, and > soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been such > and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 months > ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small > crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a > PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up was in > perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my ribs. Over > the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, so last > evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference - I > bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local woodworker's > store.) > > Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of questions. > > Ken Howe > Beaverton, OR > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:57 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Will..AIrfoil can of worms? Will and Ed, You are describing well what I was trying to do poorly. Ed, you also bring up another point-- fastening the ribs to the spar. You make a case for not gluing the ribs to the spars. Some guys are NOT gluing them to the spar, just nailing as you describe. (I think Mike Cuy might be one of these, using nails as you describe. He also has glued the ribs to capstrips running parallel to the spars. His ribs are not going to cock or move in flight.) Chuck Gantzer did not glue his ribs to his spars, either. Instead the glued small blocks, perhaps pieces of capstrip, to the inner face of his spars, trapping the ribs with the blocks, so that the ribs could not move left or right on the spar. In each case, as you point out, this would make repair or replacement of the ribs easier. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: "Ed G." Sent: Jul 6, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Will..AIrfoil can of worms? Hi Will... The origional plans call for nailing through the top and bottom cap strips into the to spars to retain the ribs. I'm guessing this practice came from WW1 planes which weren't expected to have a very long life span. Experience shows that over a long period of time the nails have a tendency to work their way out under the fabric and or rust causing problems later on. So, yes, the excepted practice has been to add verticles to the rib in order to fasten the ribs to the spars. I added just the inner ones and T-88d them to the spars. Now I wish I had just put a couple nails in each verticle which would make it easier to make adjustments or even replace a rib or a spar in the future. Put in the outer uprights dosen't seem to add anything except weight ( my opinion). Hope that helps...Ed G. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? > From: will@cctc.net > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 05:48:35 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > "RIB CAPS: I was AMAZED to see a few minutes ago that on the ORIGINAL Piet drawings for the rib (dated 3-3-34) there are NO rib caps at all, front or rear of either spar. However, I believe everyone builds with several rib caps-- at least the two inner ones. Somewhere in the Piet drawings I recall, but cannot now find, an "improved rib drawing." On my ribs there is a front rib cap, as you call it, for both the front and rear spar. My ribs do NOT have a rear rib cap. Looking at pictures of other builds, I see that a few guys have only inner rib caps, while some have a front rib cap, and some apparently have all four rib caps. IMO, you will need at least the two inner rib caps to have a more solid build than a pure reliance upon compression struts engenders. " > I'm lost as to what you are saying here; did you intend to say inner bracing instead of caps? In a built-up rib, I can't see how one could have a rib, at all, without a rib cap strip. > > Will > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251711#251711 > > > > > > > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thats right for you. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:52 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Welcome, Ken. Many have said this is the best board on matronics. These guys are great, and you will enjoy your build. You are bringing the right attitude and a good preparation to the project. I'd echo Corky's sentiments, as well, for they apply to all of us. Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Ken Howe >Sent: Jul 6, 2009 10:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction > > > >Hi All, > >This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old friends >already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I got my >2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two or three >months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just start >building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no schedule or >expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have said, my >enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into little >sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying machine! When >I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make something, then >get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this way, but >that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. > >About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. >Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know more >after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I fit into >the plans build mock-up. > >3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. > >Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? > >Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) >I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more friendly >for those time when I have a companion. > >Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. > >Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make myself >more visible. > >About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first >start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and college. But >then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in the way. >I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans from >Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly married >and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I settled >down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I guess >one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was my Piet >plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With kids on >their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, and 36 >years after I started, I became a private pilot. > >I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in >software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I got out >of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and >thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes from the >Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out and not >arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm believer in >Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also believe >in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have done in >building their Piets. > >My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of pictures and >fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my website, and >soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been such >and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 months >ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small >crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a >PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up was in >perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my ribs. Over >the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, so last >evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference - I >bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local woodworker's >store.) > >Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of questions. > >Ken Howe >Beaverton, OR > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:51 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? I may get this right yet, but maybe not. I have meant the same thing all along, but used the wrong terminology. Mark's drawing refers to "rib sticks." Yes, that is what I was writing about, but was not referring to his drawing ("rib sticks" terminology) when writing. Will and Ed, and my last email on this subject, refer to them as "rib braces" or rib bracing." Same pieces. Sorry for any confusion. The two internal ones should be considered required. Any external ones are optional. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Mark Roberts Sent: Jul 5, 2009 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Continuing along the journey of discovery, I checked my airfoil plot from yesterday against the plot coordinates from John (thanks again!) and found them to be almost identical. So, I now have a new question about the center line and it's relation to incidence once on the spar... The image attached shows the spars are perpendicular to the baseline. The trailing edge is elevated 1/2" from the baseline. Is this an issue? Or does the wing mount and attachment work out centerline issues when installed? Not sure I am clear here, but I am curious about the spars and whether they should be perpendicular to the median chord line (drawn centered between the LE and the TE) or if they should be perpendicular to the baseline the plot was generated from (see the diagram below). Also, the Full sized Piet Rib Pattern I received does not show a rib riser on the LE of the front spar, or the TE of the rear spar. I drew this 612 rib pattern out the same way. I get it that the spar acts as one BIG riser stick but I still look at it and think one should be there, but I am guessing it is unnecessary... Thoughts? I hope to be starting ribs here soon :o) Mark PS: Thanks for all of the patience with the questions... On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: Thanks John!! I really appreciate the file. I dug through all of the archives and didn't see it, but it wasn't until late in my search that I saw any attachments at all on any post, so I might have overlooked it in my lack of understanding the archive. Thanks again! I will check my plot. Many thanks!! Mark On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 5:58 AM, wrote: Ooops.. forgot the attachement... JohnW ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au Sent: Sunday, 5 July, 2009 8:54:49 PM GMT +08:00 Perth Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Mark, Attached is a copy of the xls file I posted a while ago. It has the co-ordinates for the Riblett 612 & 613.5 sections as provided by Mr Bokolt together with the Pietenpol sections, as copied from the plans. I used the 612 co-ordinates to plot and make my ribs. Still a long way from flying. The 612 has been sucessfully used on other ultralights and from Mr Riblett's description of it's characteristics he predicted it would be a good section for the Piet. I wish I could be at Brodhead to hear Mr Pieti Lowell's forum on the 612's performance. JohnW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Roberts" Sent: Sunday, 5 July, 2009 7:50:46 AM GMT +08:00 Perth Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Also, just spent the last 2 hours or so creating the 612 rib plot I found (if the coordinates are correct) into my CAD program and created a rib template for the 60" profile. Not sure if the plot is indeed the 612, as I only got the coordinates from a post on this list in the archives and they said they had found it on another aviation website, so if anyone has a verifiable set of plots, I'd like to check my work to see if it is indeed a 612. Regardless, here's a picture of the plot I made... Minus gussets... Mark On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Oh Yes! Do tell! :o) Mark On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Tim Willis wrote: Aha! VGs! Jeff, it sounds like you are very happy with their effects. Thus inquiring minds want to know: Were the VGs the ones you used the straight little plastic fins (100 to a box), or were they the truncated "V," perhaps made out of bent aluminum? How far behind the LE did you place them, and was that according to directions, or what? Did you also apply them to any controls, esp. the back of the VStab or near the LE of the rudder? Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Boatright >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 5:20 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > >Mark, > >Our Piet had what I consider a sharp and unannounced stall. However, >it has an aluminum leading edge wrap rather than the thing plywood as >specified in the plans. When the fabric was shrunk, it pulled the >aluminum down between the ribs in a very ugly fashion. The result is >an even sharper nose than the Piet airfoil normally has. > >I added vortex generators and everything changed. The no-power stall >is now about like a Cessna 172's or maybe even gentler. The power-on >stall has noticeable burbling prior to the stall and a fairly gentle >break. > >As you can tell from my description, this is an atypical Piet. But, >every datum helps. > >Jeff > > >>...After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet >>airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to >>the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, >>but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking >>about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, >>and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe >>give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. ... >> >>Mark > >-- >--- > >Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Ophthalmology >Emory University School of Medicine >Editor-in-Chief >Molecular Vision > > ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:44 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering Steve, That field is the place. Your carbon fiber application is unique, as are your PIET rudder pedals. I'll bet you can get some pedal buyers. Has anyone answered your wheel and axle question? (I can't.) Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- From: steven sadler Sent: Jul 5, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering 1) I will be attending the Pietenpol gathering this year and I have a bit of a dumb question. I have searched through the archives and other places and cannot find a definitive location (other than, obviously Brodhead, WI). Google maps shows what looks like an airfield just south of Brodhead. Is this where all the Pietenpol fans will be gathering? 2) Has anyone used the Azusa 4.8 x 8 wheels on their Piet? I have a set with the 5/8"axles and after reviewing the math with a structural engineer, the axle seems to be too weak, even with a solid 4130 axle. Even switching out the bearings and installing 3/4" axles seems a little iffy. Any one with experience using smaller axles on their Piet? 3) Just for interest, Here is a picture of one of the rudder pedals for my plane (sitting on the underside of the fuselage for the picture.) The black strip is carbon fiber. Instead of the steel fuselage cross strap I used carbon fiber to hold the fuselage bottom together. Ran the carbon fully across the bottom and wrapped about 6" up the sides. Steve in Winnipeg (Fuselage framed, controls partially complete, building landing gear now) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:09 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? From: "ldmill" Folks, I'm heading to Brodhead this year for the first time. I've volunteered to help haul camping gear and fuel to Oshkosh for those flying over to Oshkosh en-mass. I'll be bringing up my enclosed 16' toy hauler for this. Question for you - where is a good place to camp at nearby where I can grab a shower? I don't want to be too far away as loading the trailer would otherwise be painful. Lorin Miller lorin.miller@emerson.com 641-485-0840 Sonex/Waiex ~80% done Piet next up Colo, Iowa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251803#251803 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:59 AM PST US From: Jim Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Hi Ken, Welcome to the Pietenpol web site. My piet is at that point of 90% done but still 90% to do. I have all the wood structure done, all the steel fittings (except center section cabane fittings) done, landing gear legs done, engine mount done, instrument panel done but not wired/connected yet. You will enjoy the building and the questions to ask and things to learn alot (well except maybe all the blankety steel fittings). Do come to Brodhead Pietenpol gathering if you can; its great to meet the people on the web site and actually see the various ways others had done their Piets. I will be there again this year; met lots of great people and their Piets last year. Cheers, Jim On Jul 6, 2009, ken@cooper-mtn.com wrote: Hi All, This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old friends already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I got my 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two or three months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just start building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no schedule or expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have said, my enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into little sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying machine! When I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make something, then get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this way, but that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know more after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I fit into the plans build mock-up. 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more friendly for those time when I have a companion. Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make myself more visible. About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and college. But then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in the way. I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans from Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly married and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I settled down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I guess one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was my Piet plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With kids on their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, and 36 years after I started, I became a private pilot. I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I got out of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes from the Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out and not arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm believer in Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also believe in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have done in building their Piets. My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of pictures and fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my website, and soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been such and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 months ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up was in perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my ribs. Over the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, so last evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference - I bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local woodworker's store.) Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of questions. Ken Howe Beaverton, OR ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering From: steven sadler Tim, Thanks for the response. The wheel and axle question is a bit of a stumper. I reviewed the yield (strength before the part takes a permanent bend) strength with a structural engineer I know. He wasn't familiar with how loads will be distributed on a cantilevered axle, so we made some assumptions. The result as I mentioned before is that the smaller axle wouldn't be strong enough at 5/8" or at 3/4". However, I have seen Aicraft Spruce selling 3/4" axles rated for 660 pounds per wheel (i.e. 1320 lbs total) so I don't know what to think. Basically, I am trying to decide whether I can use the wheels I have or bite the bullet and buy a whole new set of name brand wheels (Cleveland or ...) with a 1-1/2" axle. I am hoping someone on the list has already been down this road and has some wisdom to pass along. Since I am heading down to Brodhead and Oshkosh in a few weeks, I will be buying some parts, just trying to decide if wheels should be on my shopping list. Steve On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Tim Willis wrote: > timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > Steve, > That field is the place. > Your carbon fiber application is unique, as are your PIET rudder pedals. > I'll bet you can get some pedal buyers. > Has anyone answered your wheel and axle question? (I can't.) > Tim in central TX > do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: steven sadler > Sent: Jul 5, 2009 8:26 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering > > 1) I will be attending the Pietenpol gathering this year and I have a bit > of a dumb question. I have searched through the archives and other places > and cannot find a definitive location (other than, obviously Brodhead, WI). > Google maps shows what looks like an airfield just south of Brodhead. Is > this where all the Pietenpol fans will be gathering? > > 2) Has anyone used the Azusa 4.8 x 8 wheels on their Piet? I have a set > with the 5/8"axles and after reviewing the math with a structural engineer, > the axle seems to be too weak, even with a solid 4130 axle. Even switching > out the bearings and installing 3/4" axles seems a little iffy. Any one with > experience using smaller axles on their Piet? > > 3) Just for interest, Here is a picture of one of the rudder pedals for my > plane (sitting on the underside of the fuselage for the picture.) The black > strip is carbon fiber. Instead of the steel fuselage cross strap I used > carbon fiber to hold the fuselage bottom together. Ran the carbon fully > across the bottom and wrapped about 6" up the sides. > > Steve in Winnipeg (Fuselage framed, controls partially complete, building > landing gear now) > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:14 AM PST US From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Wow Ken! You're on your way! It seems like many of us follow the same path of plotting and thinking about it for years before goin for it. Congrats! Mark Mark Roberts On Jul 6, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Ken Howe wrote: > > > Hi All, > > This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old > friends > already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I > got my > 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two > or three > months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just > start > building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no > schedule or > expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have > said, my > enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into > little > sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying > machine! When > I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make > something, then > get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this > way, but > that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. > > About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. > Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know > more > after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I > fit into > the plans build mock-up. > > 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. > > Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? > > Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) > I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more > friendly > for those time when I have a companion. > > Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. > > Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make > myself > more visible. > > About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first > start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and > college. But > then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in > the way. > I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans > from > Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly > married > and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I > settled > down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I > guess > one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was > my Piet > plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With > kids on > their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, > and 36 > years after I started, I became a private pilot. > > I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in > software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I > got out > of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and > thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes > from the > Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out > and not > arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm > believer in > Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also > believe > in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have > done in > building their Piets. > > My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of > pictures and > fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my > website, and > soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been > such > and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 > months > ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small > crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a > PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up > was in > perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my > ribs. Over > the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, > so last > evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference > - I > bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local > woodworker's > store.) > > Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of > questions. > > Ken Howe > Beaverton, OR > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:14 AM PST US From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Wow Ken! You're on your way! It seems like many of us follow the same path of plotting and thinking about it for years before goin for it. Congrats! Mark Mark Roberts On Jul 6, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Ken Howe wrote: > > > Hi All, > > This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old > friends > already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I > got my > 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two > or three > months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just > start > building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no > schedule or > expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have > said, my > enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into > little > sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying > machine! When > I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make > something, then > get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this > way, but > that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. > > About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. > Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know > more > after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I > fit into > the plans build mock-up. > > 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. > > Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? > > Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) > I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more > friendly > for those time when I have a companion. > > Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. > > Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make > myself > more visible. > > About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first > start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and > college. But > then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in > the way. > I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans > from > Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly > married > and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I > settled > down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I > guess > one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was > my Piet > plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With > kids on > their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, > and 36 > years after I started, I became a private pilot. > > I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in > software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I > got out > of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and > thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes > from the > Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out > and not > arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm > believer in > Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also > believe > in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have > done in > building their Piets. > > My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of > pictures and > fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my > website, and > soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been > such > and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 > months > ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small > crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a > PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up > was in > perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my > ribs. Over > the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, > so last > evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference > - I > bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local > woodworker's > store.) > > Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of > questions. > > Ken Howe > Beaverton, OR > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead visit - help camping?? From: "ldmill" Already got a response. Thanks everybody! Lorin -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX Pietenpol next up Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251813#251813 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? From: Mark Roberts Thanks Fellas for all the advice. I feel as though i've reached my posting limit lately with question :o) I really do appreciate the advice. The questions regarding airfoil is mainly due to what I read from Mr. Riblett's explaination of the Piet wing. Realizing it has been successful over the years with the airfoil Mr. Piet designed, and that I have a jig arriving soon with that design, it is what i will be building. I can always build another wing after I am flying this one. I guess my interest was to the point of wanting to avoid the sharp stall characteristics that Jeff referred to in his post, and also attributed to the metal LE covering. Between his description of the flight characteristics, and Riblett's comments, I was toying with the idea of building the 612. Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. I hope to be making a rib in the next 2 days :o) Mark On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Tim Willis wrote: > timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > I may get this right yet, but maybe not. I have meant the same thing all > along, but used the wrong terminology. Mark's drawing refers to "rib > sticks." Yes, that is what I was writing about, but was not referring to > his drawing ("rib sticks" terminology) when writing. Will and Ed, and my > last email on this subject, refer to them as "rib braces" or rib bracing." > Same pieces. Sorry for any confusion. > > The two internal ones should be considered required. Any external ones are > optional. > > Tim in central TX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Roberts > Sent: Jul 5, 2009 5:09 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > Continuing along the journey of discovery, I checked my airfoil plot from > yesterday against the plot coordinates from John (thanks again!) and found > them to be almost identical. So, I now have a new question about the center > line and it's relation to incidence once on the spar... > > > The image attached shows the spars are perpendicular to the baseline. The > trailing edge is elevated 1/2" from the baseline. Is this an issue? Or does > the wing mount and attachment work out centerline issues when installed? > > > Not sure I am clear here, but I am curious about the spars and whether they > should be perpendicular to the median chord line (drawn centered between the > LE and the TE) or if they should be perpendicular to the baseline the plot > was generated from (see the diagram below). > > > Also, the Full sized Piet Rib Pattern I received does not show a rib riser > on the LE of the front spar, or the TE of the rear spar. I drew this 612 rib > pattern out the same way. I get it that the spar acts as one BIG riser stick > but I still look at it and think one should be there, but I am guessing it > is unnecessary... > > > Thoughts? I hope to be starting ribs here soon :o) > > > Mark > > > PS: Thanks for all of the patience with the questions... > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Mark Roberts > wrote: > > Thanks John!! I really appreciate the file. I dug through all of the > archives and didn't see it, but it wasn't until late in my search that I saw > any attachments at all on any post, so I might have overlooked it in my lack > of understanding the archive. > > > Thanks again! I will check my plot. > > > Many thanks!! > > > Mark > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 5:58 AM, wrote: > > > Ooops.. forgot the attachement... > > JohnW > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Sent: Sunday, 5 July, 2009 8:54:49 PM GMT +08:00 Perth > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > > Mark, > > Attached is a copy of the xls file I posted a while ago. > It has the co-ordinates for the Riblett 612 & 613.5 sections as provided by > Mr Bokolt together with the Pietenpol sections, as copied from the plans. > > I used the 612 co-ordinates to plot and make my ribs. > Still a long way from flying. > The 612 has been sucessfully used on other ultralights and from Mr > Riblett's description of it's characteristics he predicted it would be a > good section for the Piet. > I wish I could be at Brodhead to hear Mr Pieti Lowell's forum on the 612's > performance. > > JohnW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Roberts" > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 5 July, 2009 7:50:46 AM GMT +08:00 Perth > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > Also, just spent the last 2 hours or so creating the 612 rib plot I found > (if the coordinates are correct) into my CAD program and created a rib > template for the 60" profile. Not sure if the plot is indeed the 612, as I > only got the coordinates from a post on this list in the archives and they > said they had found it on another aviation website, so if anyone has a > verifiable set of plots, I'd like to check my work to see if it is indeed a > 612. > > > Regardless, here's a picture of the plot I made... Minus gussets... > > > Mark > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Mark Roberts > wrote: > > Oh Yes! Do tell! :o) > > > Mark > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Tim Willis > wrote: > > timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > Aha! VGs! Jeff, it sounds like you are very happy with their effects. > Thus inquiring minds want to know: > > Were the VGs the ones you used the straight little plastic fins (100 to a > box), or were they the truncated "V," perhaps made out of bent aluminum? > > How far behind the LE did you place them, and was that according to > directions, or what? > > Did you also apply them to any controls, esp. the back of the VStab or near > the LE of the rudder? > > Tim in central TX > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Jeff Boatright > >Sent: Jul 4, 2009 5:20 PM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? > > > > > >Mark, > > > >Our Piet had what I consider a sharp and unannounced stall. However, > >it has an aluminum leading edge wrap rather than the thing plywood as > >specified in the plans. When the fabric was shrunk, it pulled the > >aluminum down between the ribs in a very ugly fashion. The result is > >an even sharper nose than the Piet airfoil normally has. > > > >I added vortex generators and everything changed. The no-power stall > >is now about like a Cessna 172's or maybe even gentler. The power-on > >stall has noticeable burbling prior to the stall and a fairly gentle > >break. > > > >As you can tell from my description, this is an atypical Piet. But, > >every datum helps. > > > >Jeff > > > > > >>...After reading the posts, I am curious about the standard Piet > >>airfoil, and it's performance. I know that building to plans and to > >>the original design is the best way of getting a good flying plane, > >>but reading the letter posted from Mr. Riblett got me to thinking > >>about the actual performance. I read about a sharp stall and such, > >>and I am looking for you guys that are flying one of these to maybe > >>give your feedback on the airfoil and it's characteristics. ... > >> > >>Mark > > > >-- > >--- > > > >Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. > >Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > >Emory University School of Medicine > >Editor-in-Chief > >Molecular Vision > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:59 PM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Pietenpol-List: Shirts Available Hello Good People! A couple of weeks ago I put out the idea of doing some 80th Anniversary shirts and sent a design idea to the list. I had enough positive feedback to move ahead. Therefore, the Half Fast Aviation Co. of Hartford, WI, is open for business. So far I have T-Shirts, sweatshirts, long sleeve Ts and kid size shirts. I will be adding more products over the next day including women's clothing, mugs and SIGG water bottles. I have also added a 2009 Brodhead Graphic with a sort of "fuzzy" retro look. CafePress will do the printing and distribution. There will be no shirts available at Brodhead as all business will be conducted online. This saves me the headache of inventory and eating a bunch of unsold mediums and smalls. I will post a short message to the list whenever I add another item. The url is: http://www.cafepress.com/half_fast/ CafePress has done a real nice job for me in the past. If you have any requests or graphic suggestions for the future, do not hesitate to say hey. TakeCare, -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:26 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: found on craigslist How can a 1928 Flathead be New? :-) ---- ken anderson wrote: > http://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/1252264754.html ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:27 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: found on craigslist That's a good question. Rebuilt to 1928 specs, or better? Or what? Also some of the Model A guys might tell you that the 1928 A's were built with some Model T parts, whereas the 1929-31 models were not. I don't know how much that affected the 1928 engines. -----Original Message----- >From: r.r.hall@cox.net >Sent: Jul 6, 2009 2:57 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: found on craigslist > > >How can a 1928 Flathead be New? :-) > >---- ken anderson wrote: >> http://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/1252264754.html > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:31 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Shirts Available John, The shirts look great. At the risk of being a WATB, is there a way to have Cafe Press include shirts with pockets? I find that t-shirts with pockets are the Ts I wear the most (gotta put the pencil and reading glasses somewhere!). Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: found on craigslist From: "Will42" Having rebuilt more than a few Model A and Model T engines, I can tell you that there are virtually no interchangeable parts between the two with the exception of a few bolts. The '28 engine, if original, has a forged steel crankshaft where the '29-'31's had cast cranks. The forged crank is much stronger and lighter as well, since it's not as massive; a good choice for a Piet. However who knows if a rebuilt engine still has the original crank; most likely not. I would think it wise to gather the parts and rebuild the engine yourself farming out the machine work as needed. There is about $1,000. in bearing and machine work in the "A". Parts; I'm not sure about current prices on these, but that much more should buy whats needed along with an aluminum head. A re-buildable block, crank, rods and cam shouldn't be more than $500. if that much. So you now have the $2,500. in an engine that you know what's inside. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251840#251840 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:35 PM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Shirts Available I wish they did. This is the only flaw I have found with them (so far) and the other online vendors that have reasonable pricing. Besides, these shirts are mostly worn when eating fatty foods, partaking of too much liquor and the telling of lies about love conquests and flying adventures. Who needs glasses and pencils for that? John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > > > > John, > > The shirts look great. At the risk of being a WATB, is there a way > to have Cafe Press include shirts with pockets? I find that t-shirts > with pockets are the Ts I wear the most (gotta put the pencil and > reading glasses somewhere!). > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering From: "Bill Church" Steve, I think that the 3/4" axles are likely intended for Ultralights. With the Piet, you are likely looking at an overall weight (plane + pilot + passenger + fuel) somewhere around 1200 lbs. If (when) you make a hard landing, you could easily double that loading. And it is likely that one wheel will hit the ground before the other, so that axle will be taking the full load (momentarily, at least), which could be around 4-5000 lbs. I don't have my calculator handy, but I think that's a little more than 660 lbs. As for the wheels you have, it's hard to say, without seeing them - But it MAY be possible to bore out a bigger hole, and put a bronze bushing in place to accept a bigger axle - depends on the geometry of the wheel, and what it's made of (and a bunch of other stuff). Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven sadler Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering The wheel and axle question is a bit of a stumper. I reviewed the yield (strength before the part takes a permanent bend) strength with a structural engineer I know. He wasn't familiar with how loads will be distributed on a cantilevered axle, so we made some assumptions. The result as I mentioned before is that the smaller axle wouldn't be strong enough at 5/8" or at 3/4". However, I have seen Aicraft Spruce selling 3/4" axles rated for 660 pounds per wheel (i.e. 1320 lbs total) so I don't know what to think. Basically, I am trying to decide whether I can use the wheels I have or bite the bullet and buy a whole new set of name brand wheels (Cleveland or ...) with a 1-1/2" axle. I am hoping someone on the list has already been down this road and has some wisdom to pass along. Since I am heading down to Brodhead and Oshkosh in a few weeks, I will be buying some parts, just trying to decide if wheels should be on my shopping list. Steve -----Original Message----- From: steven sadler Sent: Jul 5, 2009 8:26 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering 2) Has anyone used the Azusa 4.8 x 8 wheels on their Piet? I have a set with the 5/8"axles and after reviewing the math with a structural engineer, the axle seems to be too weak, even with a solid 4130 axle. Even switching out the bearings and installing 3/4" axles seems a little iffy. Any one with experience using smaller axles on their Piet? Steve in Winnipeg (Fuselage framed, controls partially complete, ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? From: Mark Roberts Just did, Thanks! I forgot they were there due to looking at all of the pictures of finished piets! Mark On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 4:23 AM, gcardinal wrote: > > Go to Chris Tracy's website www.westcoastpiet.com and look under the > "Construction" page where you will find a couple of good articles on built > up spars. > > Greg Cardinal > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "carson" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:06 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? > > >> >> I'm using the riblett and a built up spar with a top and bottom spruce cap >> and 1/8 ply with spruce blocking between the caps,I made the spars bigger to >> fit the ribs my thinking being that the extra weight in the blocking would >> be around the same as putting it at the top as a filler. >> I can't see that this would degrade the strength of the spar >> Could someone with the knowledge on this, chime in with there thoughts? >> Thanks >> Carson >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251696#251696 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:37 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? Don't feel bad, Mark! I've been looking at that site for 16 months, like you, looking at all the pictures, and never once noticed the 'Construction' site! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 4:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? Just did, Thanks! I forgot they were there due to looking at all of the pictures of finished piets! Mark On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 4:23 AM, gcardinal wrote: Go to Chris Tracy's website www.westcoastpiet.com and look under the "Construction" page where you will find a couple of good articles on built up spars. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "carson" Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 6:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? I'm using the riblett and a built up spar with a top and bottom spruce cap and 1/8 ply with spruce blocking between the caps,I made the spars bigger to fit the ribs my thinking being that the extra weight in the blocking would be around the same as putting it at the top as a filler. I can't see that this would degrade the strength of the spar Could someone with the knowledge on this, chime in with there thoughts? Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251696#251696 ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:26 PM PST US From: "Dick N." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Hi Ken I didn't see if you are planning on attending Brodhead. If so, You can do a trial fit in my plane and I'll tell you about the mods I made for a comfortable fit. I'm sure others will do the same. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Howe" Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Hi All, This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old friends already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I got my 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two or three months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just start building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no schedule or expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have said, my enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into little sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying machine! When I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make something, then get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this way, but that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know more after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I fit into the plans build mock-up. 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more friendly for those time when I have a companion. Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make myself more visible. About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and college. But then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in the way. I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans from Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly married and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I settled down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I guess one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was my Piet plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With kids on their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, and 36 years after I started, I became a private pilot. I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I got out of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes from the Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out and not arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm believer in Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also believe in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have done in building their Piets. My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of pictures and fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my website, and soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been such and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 months ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up was in perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my ribs. Over the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, so last evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference - I bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local woodworker's store.) Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of questions. Ken Howe Beaverton, OR ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:12 PM PST US From: "Dick N." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? Reply for Lorin and Steve Sadler There is camping on the field at Brodhead. There is plenty of camping space. No electrical hookups or waste dumps. There are are showers available and some food service. The walk into town is short to McDonalds, Subway and other places. There is a grocery store and hardware store in town. Brodhead is a very small town and the airport is to the south of the main hwy just west of the McDonalds. This is an informal event, they sell buttons, $5, to help with expenses. There is also a Hatz bi plane flying on the other end of the field. Also there are some mighty nice planes making fuel stops on the way to OSH. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ldmill" Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? > > Folks, > I'm heading to Brodhead this year for the first time. I've volunteered to > help haul camping gear and fuel to Oshkosh for those flying over to > Oshkosh en-mass. I'll be bringing up my enclosed 16' toy hauler for this. > Question for you - where is a good place to camp at nearby where I can > grab a shower? I don't want to be too far away as loading the trailer > would otherwise be painful. > > Lorin Miller > > lorin.miller@emerson.com > 641-485-0840 > Sonex/Waiex ~80% done > Piet next up > Colo, Iowa > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251803#251803 > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:53 PM PST US From: Ken Howe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction I wish I was going to Brodhead, but it's not going to happen this year. My wife is out of town, and returning July 24th. She might not understand if instead of meeting her at PDX that evening I'm half way across the country looking at old-timey airplanes. --Ken Dick N. wrote: > > Hi Ken > I didn't see if you are planning on attending Brodhead. If so, You can > do a trial fit in my plane and I'll tell you about the mods I made for a > comfortable fit. I'm sure others will do the same. > Dick N. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Howe" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:56 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction > > > > > Hi All, > > This is my first post to the list, but many of you seem like old friends > already. I've been subscribed for a couple of years, which is when I got my > 2nd set (more about that later) of Pietenpol plans from Don P. Two or three > months ago I decided it was time to stop thinking about it and just start > building. My plan is to not have a plan. That is there is no schedule or > expectation as to when I'll complete this project. As others have said, my > enjoyment will come from building, making big sticks of wood into little > sticks of wood then into airplane parts and finally a flying machine! When > I can afford to buy raw materials, I'll get enough to make something, then > get busy until that part is done. It'll cost more in the end this way, but > that cost will be spread out pretty thin in the end. > > About MY Pietenpol: My current thinking about how/what I'll build. > Long fuselage - I'll rake the seat back 2-4" for comfort. I'll know more > after I build a mock-pit. The fuse width will also depend on how I fit into > the plans build mock-up. > > 3-piece wing, Riblett 63-012 airfoil. > > Engine is undecided. Maybe a C-85? > > Add-ons: (I know, extra weight) > I'm considering the Keri-Ann Price passenger door to make it more friendly > for those time when I have a companion. > > Enough radios to enable me to fly comfortably in today's airspace. > > Probably lights - not necessarily so I can fly at night, but to make myself > more visible. > > About me. I've been an EAA member since 1969 (in high school). I first > start taking flying lessons the summer between high school and college. But > then I went to college and never finished lessons when life got in the way. > I first got interested in the Piet in '74 and bought a set of plans from > Mr. Pietenpol (that was the first set). At that time I was newly married > and in the Air Force. I figured I'd start building something when I settled > down. During one of my Air Force moves my set of plans was lost. I guess > one moving box was lost, and the only thing that I ever missed was my Piet > plans. To this day I have no idea what else was in that box. With kids on > their own (or nearly so) I finally went to finish my flying lessons, and 36 > years after I started, I became a private pilot. > > I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering, but have made my career in > software development. I've been writing s/w since '78, soon after I got out > of the service. Being an engineer, I'm always looking at things and > thinking about other ways of making them. So I will make changes from the > Piet plans as I build. I hope my changes will be well thought out and not > arbitrary, and definitely not purely for asthetics. I'm a firm believer in > Frank Lloyd Wright's principal of "Form follows function". I also believe > in the KISS principle. I also expect learn from what others have done in > building their Piets. > > My building progress. First of all I'm trying to take lots of pictures and > fully document my build. At some point I'll put a a blog on my website, and > soon I'll post a few pictures here, particularly since there's been such > and active Riblett discussion lately. I finished my rib jig almost 2 months > ago, but have been busy with work and family since then. I had a small > crate of spruce from an abort project long ago (I was going to build a > PDQ-2). The wood has been kept in the crate, and when I opened it up was in > perfect condition. There's more than enough there for all of my ribs. Over > the holiday weekend I finished cutting all of the rib truss pieces, so last > evening I glued up the 1st side of the 1st rib! (Point of reference - I > bought a small supply of T-88 from Woodcraft Supply, a local woodworker's > store.) > > Well, that's enough for now. Pictures soon, as well as a slew of questions. > > Ken Howe > Beaverton, OR > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:58 PM PST US From: Mike Simmons Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe I am planning to make it to my first Brodhead reunion fairly late Friday night/Sat. morning. From searching the archives, sounds like it's OK to just find a spot to pitch your tent amongst the others and find the bucket for a donation. Is this still true? Is there any insight as to where to park or are the instructions pretty clear once you get there? Any advice on what to do from some of those reunion veterans out there would be much appreciated ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:46 PM PST US From: Mike Tunnicliffe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering Hi, my 1050 lb gross Jodel D18 has 3/4" axles that have survived my occasional heavy landings without bending. However it does have relatively small diameter 5.00 x 5 tyres. Regards Mike T. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:58 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering Steve, I think that the 3/4" axles are likely intended for Ultralights. With the Piet, you are likely looking at an overall weight (plane + pilot + passenger + fuel) somewhere around 1200 lbs. If (when) you make a hard landing, you could easily double that loading. And it is likely that one wheel will hit the ground before the other, so that axle will be taking the full load (momentarily, at least), which could be around 4-5000 lbs. I don't have my calculator handy, but I think that's a little more than 660 lbs. As for the wheels you have, it's hard to say, without seeing them - But it MAY be possible to bore out a bigger hole, and put a bronze bushing in place to accept a bigger axle - depends on the geometry of the wheel, and what it's made of (and a bunch of other stuff). Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven sadler Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:15 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering The wheel and axle question is a bit of a stumper. I reviewed the yield (strength before the part takes a permanent bend) strength with a structural engineer I know. He wasn't familiar with how loads will be distributed on a cantilevered axle, so we made some assumptions. The result as I mentioned before is that the smaller axle wouldn't be strong enough at 5/8" or at 3/4". However, I have seen Aicraft Spruce selling 3/4" axles rated for 660 pounds per wheel (i.e. 1320 lbs total) so I don't know what to think. Basically, I am trying to decide whether I can use the wheels I have or bite the bullet and buy a whole new set of name brand wheels (Cleveland or ...) with a 1-1/2" axle. I am hoping someone on the list has already been down this road and has some wisdom to pass along. Since I am heading down to Brodhead and Oshkosh in a few weeks, I will be buying some parts, just trying to decide if wheels should be on my shopping list. Steve -----Original Message----- From: steven sadler Sent: Jul 5, 2009 8:26 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering 2) Has anyone used the Azusa 4.8 x 8 wheels on their Piet? I have a set with the 5/8"axles and after reviewing the math with a structural engineer, the axle seems to be too weak, even with a solid 4130 axle. Even switching out the bearings and installing 3/4" axles seems a little iffy. Any one with experience using smaller axles on their Piet? Steve in Winnipeg (Fuselage framed, controls partially complete, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.