---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/07/09: 59 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:13 AM - Rib construction photos (Ken Howe) 2. 03:44 AM - Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe (helspersew@aol.com) 3. 04:44 AM - Re: Brodhead visit - help camping?? (Ryan Mueller) 4. 05:12 AM - Re: Rib construction photos (Kip and Beth Gardner) 5. 05:32 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 6. 06:34 AM - Re: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (hvandervoo@aol.com) 7. 07:04 AM - Re: Rib construction photos (Ken Howe) 8. 07:05 AM - Re: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (Bill Church) 9. 07:08 AM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Pieti Lowell) 10. 07:50 AM - motor mounts (Richard Schreiber) 11. 08:13 AM - Re: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (Bill Church) 12. 08:36 AM - Re: Rib construction photos (K5YAC) 13. 08:53 AM - Re: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (hvandervoo@aol.com) 14. 08:53 AM - Re: Brodhead visit - help camping?? (Dick N.) 15. 09:00 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (K5YAC) 16. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: New builder: An Introduction (amsafetyc@aol.com) 17. 09:11 AM - Re: motor mounts (Ed G.) 18. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Isablcorky@aol.com) 19. 09:13 AM - Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe (Roman Bukolt) 20. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: New builder: An Introduction (Roman Bukolt) 21. 09:15 AM - Re: motor mounts (hvandervoo@aol.com) 22. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: New builder: An Introduction (John Hofmann) 23. 09:40 AM - Re: Rib construction photos (Mark Roberts) 24. 09:41 AM - A Little Off Topic (K5YAC) 25. 10:13 AM - Re: A Little Off Topic (899PM) 26. 10:15 AM - Re: A Little Off Topic (K5YAC) 27. 10:23 AM - Re: New builder: An Introduction (K5YAC) 28. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: New builder: An Introduction (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 29. 10:53 AM - Re: A Little Off Topic (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 30. 10:53 AM - Re: motor mounts (Richard Schreiber) 31. 11:03 AM - Re: A Little Off Topic (K5YAC) 32. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: A Little Off Topic (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 33. 11:22 AM - Re: motor mounts (hvandervoo@aol.com) 34. 11:41 AM - Re: motor mounts (Bill Church) 35. 12:00 PM - Re: T-88 (jimd) 36. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: A Little Off Topic (Jim Markle) 37. 12:44 PM - Re: T-88 (Glenn Thomas) 38. 12:51 PM - couple more Brodhead pics (Roman Bukolt) 39. 01:02 PM - Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe (Don Emch) 40. 01:04 PM - Re: couple more Brodhead pics (Don Emch) 41. 01:05 PM - Re: Plywoods (Glenn Thomas) 42. 01:18 PM - Re: Looking for someone. (Glenn Thomas) 43. 01:24 PM - Re: motor mounts (Richard Schreiber) 44. 01:25 PM - Re: couple more Brodhead pics (Gary Boothe) 45. 03:12 PM - Czech Piet (Baldeagle) 46. 03:40 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Terry Williams) 47. 03:46 PM - Re: Brodhead visit - help camping?? (Jack Phillips) 48. 03:56 PM - Re: Czech Piet (Gary Boothe) 49. 04:03 PM - Re: motor mounts (Jack Phillips) 50. 04:08 PM - Re: AIrfoil can of worms? (Terry Williams) 51. 04:40 PM - Re: Czech Piet (Michael Silvius) 52. 05:36 PM - Brodhead (x GOYENI) 53. 05:40 PM - Re: Czech Piet (Mark Roberts) 54. 05:52 PM - Re: Czech Piet (airlion@bellsouth.net) 55. 05:52 PM - Re: Brodhead (Jack Phillips) 56. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe (Roman Bukolt) 57. 07:19 PM - Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe (Don Emch) 58. 07:25 PM - Re: motor mounts (Richard Schreiber) 59. 09:43 PM - Re: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering (shad bell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:08 AM PST US From: Ken Howe Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib construction photos As promised, here's a few pictures of my rib building. First of all, I decided not use use staples or nails for gluing the gussets. Instead I'm simply using a steel weight to apply the minimum pressure that System Three says to use with T-88. The weights came from a local scrap yard - old bolts and sawed up chunks of a 1 3/16" rod. I ran then over a 50 grit belt on my sander to get rid of the rust and make a reasonably flat surface. To prevent permanently gluing blocks of steel to my ribs I cut 3" squares of 4 mil poly to place over each gusset. The epoxy is slippery enough that I just tugged this way and that on the weighted piece of poly until the gusset was just where I wanted it. The final two shots are my approach to blocking at the trailing edge and around the front spar. As mentioned on the 'can of worms' thread, the Riblett section is thicker than the original Piet section. I've decided size the spars per the plans and use spacer's for the difference. The rear spar sits directly on the bottom capstrip, and there's a small space between the top of the spar and the upper strip. The airfoil section at the front spar location is significantly thicker on the Riblett, and most of the extra is below the chord line. I've sized a block to fit under the spar. There will be just a small triangular space above the spar. I'll fill above both spars with wedges when I fit the ribs on to the spars. These pictures were taken with the first side glued up and the rib flipped over and sitting in a simple jig to hold it securely for gluing the second side. I've also inserted a wedge at the trailing edge to make that a secure joint. --Ken ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe From: helspersew@aol.com Mike, That is the beauty of Brodhead. Not much is "clear" when you get there. Just about any?empty space is good for you to pitch your tent, but I would not recommend right next to the porta-potties :o). This is a very laid back event. The parking is not "clear" either. Just pull up next to somebody else and pay the fee (NOT). The local EAA chapter sells the buttons for the camping fee under the pavillion there. There are also a few "vendors" that will be hawking a few things sitting at the picnic tables under the pavillion. One of them will be me, with my prop-carving CD. I will be running a "show special" of $15.00 per copy :0) Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Mike Simmons Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 12:14 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe ? I am planning to make it to my first Brodhead reunion fairly late Friday night/Sat. morning. From searching the archives, sounds like it's OK to just find a spot to pitch your tent amongst the others and find the bucket for a donation. Is this still true? Is there any insight as to where to park or are the instructions pretty clear once you get there? Any advice on what to do from some of those reunion veterans out there would be much appreciated? ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:55 AM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? Dick, You mentioned planes making fuel stops on the way to OSH; do we know for sure that there is or will be fuel this year at Brodhead? I ask because the last I heard was from a friend that volunteered at the pancake breakfast towards the latter part of May, and he made a comment in an email about trying to do Young Eagles at the event with no fuel on the field. The last mention on the 431 website was of fencing being installed in May that brings things closer to operational status, but no mention of when or if they will actually be back up. I know that was over a month ago, but it may be worth confirming if they will actually have the new tanks running in time. Anyone else know any more current news? Ryan Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:29 PM, "Dick N." wrote: > > > > Reply for Lorin and Steve Sadler > There is camping on the field at Brodhead. There is plenty of > camping space. No electrical hookups or waste dumps. There are are > showers available and some food service. The walk into town is > short to McDonalds, Subway and other places. There is a grocery > store and hardware store in town. Brodhead is a very small town and > the airport is to the south of the main hwy just west of the > McDonalds. This is an informal event, they sell buttons, $5, to > help with expenses. There is also a Hatz bi plane flying on the > other end of the field. Also there are some mighty nice planes > making fuel stops on the way to OSH. > Dick N. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "ldmill" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:08 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? > > >> > >> >> Folks, >> I'm heading to Brodhead this year for the first time. I've >> volunteered to help haul camping gear and fuel to Oshkosh for those >> flying over to Oshkosh en-mass. I'll be bringing up my enclosed 16' >> toy hauler for this. >> Question for you - where is a good place to camp at nearby where I >> can grab a shower? I don't want to be too far away as loading the >> trailer would otherwise be painful. >> >> Lorin Miller >> >> lorin.miller@emerson.com >> 641-485-0840 >> Sonex/Waiex ~80% done >> Piet next up >> Colo, Iowa >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251803#251803 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:01 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib construction photos Ken, Nice pictures of your rib setup. Your comments raised one question about the Riblett airfoil that I had not yet been able to ask that maybe you or Mr. Lowell could address. Mark Roberts mentioned a related issue in one of his posts. I see that you are setting your ribs relative to the chord line. This makes sense to me - if I understand things correctly, this sets the ribs at zero incidence relative to the spars, ands any change in incidence would then be set by adjusting the struts. Are you also then setting your spars at 90 degrees to the chord line? Again, I assume you would because that would make the most sense. Thanks! Kip Gardner On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:56 AM, Ken Howe wrote: > As promised, here's a few pictures of my rib building. First of > all, I decided not use use staples or nails for gluing the gussets. > Instead I'm simply using a steel weight to apply the minimum > pressure that System Three says to use with T-88. The weights came > from a local scrap yard - old bolts and sawed up chunks of a 1 > 3/16" rod. I ran then over a 50 grit belt on my sander to get rid > of the rust and make a reasonably flat surface. To prevent > permanently gluing blocks of steel to my ribs I cut 3" squares of 4 > mil poly to place over each gusset. The epoxy is slippery enough > that I just tugged this way and that on the weighted piece of poly > until the gusset was just where I wanted it. > > The final two shots are my approach to blocking at the trailing > edge and around the front spar. As mentioned on the 'can of worms' > thread, the Riblett section is thicker than the original Piet > section. I've decided size the spars per the plans and use spacer's > for the difference. The rear spar sits directly on the bottom > capstrip, and there's a small space between the top of the spar and > the upper strip. The airfoil section at the front spar location is > significantly thicker on the Riblett, and most of the extra is > below the chord line. I've sized a block to fit under the spar. > There will be just a small triangular space above the spar. I'll > fill above both spars with wedges when I fit the ribs on to the > spars. These pictures were taken with the first side glued up and > the rib flipped over and sitting in a simple jig to hold it > securely for gluing the second side. I've also inserted a wedge at > the trailing edge to make that a secure joint. > > --Ken<1st Rib-0003-20090705.jpg><1st Rib-0005-20090705.jpg><1st > Rib-0006-20090705.jpg><1st Rib-0008-20090706.jpg><1st > Rib-0009-20090706.jpg> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:38 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New builder: An Introduction Ken, Sounds perfect, no reason not to start as soon as possible and avoid the rush, as you get more and more into your project and the addiction grows, you will more than likely get her upset with you anyway so you might as well start early, you can start now and come to Brodhead or start later and miss Brodhead, the end result is youre gonna get her upset with you anyway. No woman is that understanding John **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering From: hvandervoo@aol.com I use 3/4" Matco axles (4140) with 6" Matco wheels on my Pietenpol successfully. Had some rough landings, no bending (so far) Please note during most "hard" landings (with forward speed) a lot of weight is still carried by the wing. A "hard" landing without forward speed is a......not something you walk away from. Only at stand still you will see full load on the wheel, this is the "static load" The dynamic load or kinematic load of these wheels is usually much higher, on the 6" Matco it is 2000 Lbs (per wheel) Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX15KV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering Steve, ? I think?that the 3/4" axles are likely intended for Ultralights. With the Piet, you are likely looking at an overall weight (plane + pilot + passenger + fuel) somewhere around 1200 lbs. If (when) you make a hard landing, you could easily double that loading. And it is likely that one wheel will hit the ground before the other, so that axle will be taking the full load (momentarily, at least), which could be around 4-5000 lbs. I don't have my calculator handy, but I think that's a little more than 660 lbs. ? As for the wheels you have, it's hard to say, without seeing them - But it MAY be possible to bore out a bigger hole, and put a bronze bushing in place?to accept a bigger axle - depends on the geometry of the wheel, and what it's made of (and a bunch of other stuff). ? Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven sadler Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering The wheel and axle question is a bit of a stumper. I reviewed the yield (strength before the part takes a permanent bend) strength with a structural engineer I know. He wasn't familiar with how loads will be distributed on a cantilevered axle, so we made some assumptions. The result as I mentioned before is that the smaller axle wouldn't be strong enough at 5/8" or at 3/4". However, I have seen Aicraft Spruce selling 3/4" axles rated for 660 pounds per wheel (i.e. 1320 lbs total) so I don't know what to think. ? Basically, I am trying to decide whether?I can use the wheels I have or bite the bullet and buy a whole new set of name brand wheels (Cleveland or ...) with a 1-1/2" axle. I am hoping someone on the list has already been down this road and has some wisdom to pass along. Since I am heading down to Brodhead and Oshkosh in a few weeks, I will be buying some parts, just trying to decide if wheels should be on my shopping list. Steve -----Original Message----- From: steven sadler Sent: Jul 5, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering 2) Has anyone used the Azusa 4.8 x 8 wheels on their Piet? I have a set with the 5/8"axles and after reviewing the math with a structural engineer, the axle seems to be too weak, even with a solid 4130 axle. Even switching out the bearings and installing 3/4" axles seems a little iffy. Any one with experience using smaller axles on their Piet? Steve in Winnipeg (Fuselage framed, controls partially complete, ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:51 AM PST US From: Ken Howe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib construction photos Yes, I've laid out my spars perpendicular to the chord line. I looked at setting them relative to a base line drawn tangent to the lowest points fore and aft, but it's only a couple degrees difference if you look at the drawing the Mark posted. I'll adjust the strut lengths to set the angle of incidence. --Ken Kip and Beth Gardner wrote: > > > Ken, > > Nice pictures of your rib setup. > > Your comments raised one question about the Riblett airfoil that I had > not yet been able to ask that maybe you or Mr. Lowell could address. > > Mark Roberts mentioned a related issue in one of his posts. > > I see that you are setting your ribs relative to the chord line. This > makes sense to me - if I understand things correctly, this sets the > ribs at zero incidence relative to the spars, ands any change in > incidence would then be set by adjusting the struts. Are you also then > setting your spars at 90 degrees to the chord line? Again, I assume you > would because that would make the most sense. > > Thanks! > > Kip Gardner > > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:56 AM, Ken Howe wrote: > >> As promised, here's a few pictures of my rib building. First of all, I >> decided not use use staples or nails for gluing the gussets. Instead >> I'm simply using a steel weight to apply the minimum pressure that >> System Three says to use with T-88. The weights came from a local >> scrap yard - old bolts and sawed up chunks of a 1 3/16" rod. I ran >> then over a 50 grit belt on my sander to get rid of the rust and make >> a reasonably flat surface. To prevent permanently gluing blocks of >> steel to my ribs I cut 3" squares of 4 mil poly to place over each >> gusset. The epoxy is slippery enough that I just tugged this way and >> that on the weighted piece of poly until the gusset was just where I >> wanted it. >> >> The final two shots are my approach to blocking at the trailing edge >> and around the front spar. As mentioned on the 'can of worms' thread, >> the Riblett section is thicker than the original Piet section. I've >> decided size the spars per the plans and use spacer's for the >> difference. The rear spar sits directly on the bottom capstrip, and >> there's a small space between the top of the spar and the upper strip. >> The airfoil section at the front spar location is significantly >> thicker on the Riblett, and most of the extra is below the chord line. >> I've sized a block to fit under the spar. There will be just a small >> triangular space above the spar. I'll fill above both spars with >> wedges when I fit the ribs on to the spars. These pictures were taken >> with the first side glued up and the rib flipped over and sitting in a >> simple jig to hold it securely for gluing the second side. I've also >> inserted a wedge at the trailing edge to make that a secure joint. >> >> --Ken<1st Rib-0003-20090705.jpg><1st Rib-0005-20090705.jpg><1st >> Rib-0006-20090705.jpg><1st Rib-0008-20090706.jpg><1st >> Rib-0009-20090706.jpg> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering From: "Bill Church" Well, 3/4" seems pretty small for a cantilevered axle that will be loaded as you say. That isn't to say that the axles cannot handle the load. BUT... it all depends on a few things: 1. The material the axle is made of. (higher strength materials can carry a higher load - heat treatment can be used to increase strength of some materials as well) 2. The configuration of the gear. (how far out on the axle the wheel is situated - the closer to the axle mounting point, the higher load it will be able to carry, due to smaller bending moment) 3. The WIDTH of the wheel. (the narrower the wheel, the less bending moment will be imposed on the axle) All other things being equal, increasing the axle diameter from solid 5/8" to solid 3/4" will result in a strength increase of 44%. Moving up to solid 7/8" diameter will practically double the strength of the 5/8" diameter. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Tunnicliffe Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering Hi, my 1050 lb gross Jodel D18 has 3/4" axles that have survived my occasional heavy landings without bending. However it does have relatively small diameter 5.00 x 5 tyres. Regards Mike T. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? From: "Pieti Lowell" H. Riblett's Notes to Me 12/27/91. Ref: GA 3OU-612. Cord, no flaps, 15%, CoG-28% , Center Line of pressure-18". Max, 30%, 16"=24". I can bring much of his notes and calculations to Brodhead for all to ponder, and copy if you have a copier available. Much of his stuff also covers the GA3OU-613.5, And others. Foe those of you that like to crunch numbers He sent me a basket full. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251926#251926 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:06 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to the lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans, Bernard shows two small tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs that rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they structurally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there, some where the tabs are there, but butt welded instead of screwed into the longeron as Bernard shows. If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cross bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the longeron. On the original plans, Bernard must have used wood screws to attach the tabs. It appears that on the original, these tabs did not add anything structurally, but actually weakened the structure. I realize that welding the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs would be better, but is it really necessary? I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. Thanks, Rick Schreiber ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering From: "Bill Church" Valid points, Hans. My example of one wheel being subjected to 4-5000 lbs was perhaps a bit "extreme". The point I was trying to make was that if an axle is rated for 660 lbs (each), and the plane weighs 1200 lbs, the axles would be close to their rated strength, just sitting on the ground, which hardly seems sufficient. Just taxiing over some bumps could exceed the rated strength, as would some rough landings, I'm sure. We do not know whether this "rated strength" includes a reasonable factor of safety (one would hope so). I don't know the specifics of the Matco axles, but they are likely heat treated for added strength. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering I use 3/4" Matco axles (4140) with 6" Matco wheels on my Pietenpol successfully. Had some rough landings, no bending (so far) Please note during most "hard" landings (with forward speed) a lot of weight is still carried by the wing. A "hard" landing without forward speed is a......not something you walk away from. Only at stand still you will see full load on the wheel, this is the "static load" The dynamic load or kinematic load of these wheels is usually much higher, on the 6" Matco it is 2000 Lbs (per wheel) Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX15KV ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:27 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib construction photos From: "K5YAC" I think each of us build these things slightly different. It is always interesting to inspect other peoples process or technique. When I see some sort of difference it makes me say, "wow, that's a cool way to do that"... and I often wonder, "did I do that right?" I may post a few pics of mine later just to get some eyeballs on them. I'm nearly 100% certain that mine are just fine. They may not be just like others, but they were built to the plans and should work fine. I was sanding several of my ribs last night in preparation for urethane coating when I started to notice that each one is a separate work of art. I cut the gussets in batches, and they were all built in the same jig... so they are nearly identical... but to the builder there are noticeable characteristics that start to become more evident after handling a part so many times. Great looking work Ken! -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251937#251937 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering From: hvandervoo@aol.com Bill, I admit that my Pietenpol has been self certified to gross weight of 1150 Lbs Tailwheel taking care of some of that, I stay well clear of the static load number Based on the Matco published dynamic load and the static load I would guess their safety design?factor is well over 3. Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX15KV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 10:11 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering Valid points, Hans. ? My example of one wheel being subjected to 4-5000 lbs was perhaps a bit "extreme". The point I was trying to make was that if an axle is rated for 660 lbs (each), and the plane weighs 1200 lbs, the axles would be close to their rated strength, just sitting on the ground, which hardly seems sufficient. Just taxiing over some bumps could exceed the rated strength, as would some rough landings, I'm sure. We do not know whether this "rated strength" includes a reasonable factor of safety (one would hope so). I don't know the specifics of the Matco axles, but they are likely heat treated for added strength. ? Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Skinny axles WAS Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering I use 3/4" Matco axles (4140) with 6" Matco wheels on my Pietenpol successfully. Had some rough landings, no bending (so far) Please note during most "hard" landings (with forward speed) a lot of weight is still carried by the wing. A "hard" landing without forward speed is a......not something you walk away from. Only at stand still you will see full load on the wheel, this is the "static load" The dynamic load or kinematic load of these wheels is usually much higher, on the 6" Matco it is 2000 Lbs (per wheel) Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX15KV ? ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:54 AM PST US From: "Dick N." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? Thanks for bringing that up, Ryan. I don't know anything current about fuel at Brodhead. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Mueller" Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 6:43 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? > > Dick, > > You mentioned planes making fuel stops on the way to OSH; do we know for > sure that there is or will be fuel this year at Brodhead? I ask because > the last I heard was from a friend that volunteered at the pancake > breakfast towards the latter part of May, and he made a comment in an > email about trying to do Young Eagles at the event with no fuel on the > field. The last mention on the 431 website was of fencing being installed > in May that brings things closer to operational status, but no mention of > when or if they will actually be back up. I know that was over a month > ago, but it may be worth confirming if they will actually have the new > tanks running in time. Anyone else know any more current news? > > Ryan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:29 PM, "Dick N." wrote: > >> > >> >> Reply for Lorin and Steve Sadler >> There is camping on the field at Brodhead. There is plenty of camping >> space. No electrical hookups or waste dumps. There are are showers >> available and some food service. The walk into town is short to >> McDonalds, Subway and other places. There is a grocery store and >> hardware store in town. Brodhead is a very small town and the airport >> is to the south of the main hwy just west of the McDonalds. This is an >> informal event, they sell buttons, $5, to help with expenses. There is >> also a Hatz bi plane flying on the other end of the field. Also there >> are some mighty nice planes making fuel stops on the way to OSH. >> Dick N. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ldmill" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:08 PM >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? >> >> >>> > >>> >>> Folks, >>> I'm heading to Brodhead this year for the first time. I've volunteered >>> to help haul camping gear and fuel to Oshkosh for those flying over to >>> Oshkosh en-mass. I'll be bringing up my enclosed 16' toy hauler for >>> this. >>> Question for you - where is a good place to camp at nearby where I can >>> grab a shower? I don't want to be too far away as loading the trailer >>> would otherwise be painful. >>> >>> Lorin Miller >>> >>> lorin.miller@emerson.com >>> 641-485-0840 >>> Sonex/Waiex ~80% done >>> Piet next up >>> Colo, Iowa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251803#251803 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:21 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction From: "K5YAC" Alright John... let's not get Ken started on the wrong foot... errr, wing... whatever. Some of our wives actually LIKE our airplanes. Mine is genuinely looking forward to Brodhead. She also wants to help, specifically on the engine rebuild, and is looking forward to a ride one day. I know it's hard to believe... but I'm sure there are others out there. Maybe mine will grow tired of the idea at some point, but she was on board at the beginning and I'll hold her to it if necessary. So far, she's enjoying the adventure too. Hamburgers, drawings, beer, tools, airplanes, hamburgers, sawdust, beer, fly-ins, hamburgers, beer, airplane rides, pancakes, airports, hot dogs, beer... what's not to like? -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251943#251943 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction From: amsafetyc@aol.com Did you say beer? John ------Original Message------ From: Mark Chunard Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Jul 7, 2009 11:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction Alright John... let's not get Ken started on the wrong foot... errr, wing... whatever. Some of our wives actually LIKE our airplanes. Mine is genuinely looking forward to Brodhead. She also wants to help, specifically on the engine rebuild, and is looking forward to a ride one day. I know it's hard to believe... but I'm sure there are others out there. Maybe mine will grow tired of the idea at some point, but she was on board at the beginning and I'll hold her to it if necessary. So far, she's enjoying the adventure too. Hamburgers, drawings, beer, tools, airplanes, hamburgers, sawdust, beer, fly-ins, hamburgers, beer, airplane rides, pancakes, airports, hot dogs, beer... what's not to like? -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251943#251943 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:54 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I can't believe the time I spent on those lower mounts. I think I ended up making them three times. The tabs are there to help support the weight of t he motor without putting all that shear/shock load on the bolts against the wood so the tabs are a good thing. I origionally welded the tabs together because I didn't want to drill all those screw holes in that area but got s o much weld shrinkage that they wouldn't fit over the fuselage without grin ding away a bunch of wood which I didn't want to do. So I made the next set one gauge heavier and longer to get an extra bolt through the longeron and bent the tabs but didn't put screws in them. Then there wasn't enough room to get sheet metal firewall material between the motor mount and the brack et so I made another set with 1/4" longer motor mount tabs. I'm not saying my way is the best way I'm just trying to point out some of the pitfalls to look out for and maybe save you some time. Ed G. From: lmforge@earthlink.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to t he lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans=2C Bernard shows two sma ll tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs th at rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they structu rally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there=2C som e where the tabs are there=2C but butt welded instead of screwed into the l ongeron as Bernard shows. If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cros s bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the longero n. On the original plans=2C Bernard must have used wood screws to attach th e tabs. It appears that on the original=2C these tabs did not add anything structurally=2C but actually weakened the structure. I realize that welding the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs would be better=2C but is it really necessary? I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. Thanks=2C Rick Schreiber _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:30 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: AIrfoil can of worms? Mr lowell, I appreciate the material sent but I'm a bit slow. Could you explain a little more in detail those numbers and %s. Thank you Corky **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! yExcfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:41 AM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe Here's photo of Brodhead looking north. During the Pietenpol event only the 09-27 runway is open. That's the tan line just above the upper group of parked planes. There are two other runways which are closed ( the big X pattern), This pic was taken during the annual Midwest Antique Airplane Fly-in. Camping is long that clump of tree on the left and that area on th right close to the road where you see the group of buildings. All the buiildings in the center are hangars. All the ground activities tke place in that area of buildings along the road on the right. The city of Brodhead can be seen just above the horizontal strut of Bill Rewey's Pietenpol. Jul 7 2009, at 12:14 AM, Mike Simmons wrote: > > > > I am planning to make it to my first Brodhead reunion fairly late > Friday night/Sat. morning. From searching the archives, sounds like > it's OK to just find a spot to pitch your tent amongst the others > and find the bucket for a donation. Is this still true? Is there any > insight as to where to park or are the instructions pretty clear > once you get there? Any advice on what to do from some of those > reunion veterans out there would be much appreciated > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:12 AM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction Bill Rewey has a widely known reputation for giving rides to wives of Piet builders. At the end of their flight, with a wide grin on their faces, the common first comment they make is, "When are you going to finish yours, Dear?" So look for Bill's "Navy" Piet. On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:59 AM, K5YAC wrote: > > Alright John... let's not get Ken started on the wrong foot... errr, > wing... whatever. Some of our wives actually LIKE our airplanes. > Mine is genuinely looking forward to Brodhead. She also wants to > help, specifically on the engine rebuild, and is looking forward to > a ride one day. > > I know it's hard to believe... but I'm sure there are others out > there. Maybe mine will grow tired of the idea at some point, but > she was on board at the beginning and I'll hold her to it if > necessary. So far, she's enjoying the adventure too. Hamburgers, > drawings, beer, tools, airplanes, hamburgers, sawdust, beer, fly- > ins, hamburgers, beer, airplane rides, pancakes, airports, hot dogs, > beer... what's not to like? > > -------- > Mark - working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251943#251943 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts From: hvandervoo@aol.com Rick, I would and did use the tabs, but did not use the screws through them. These bottom fittings are almost always in compression, in other words; the weight of the Engine is pushing it against the Firewall. The tabs take a lot of?load away from the cross bolts, I recommend you leave them in place but you can omit the screws. Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX15KV -----Original Message----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to the lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans, Bernard shows two small tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs that rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they structurally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there, some where the tabs are there, but butt welded instead of screwed into the longeron as Bernard shows. ? If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cross bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the longeron. On the original plans, Bernard must have used wood screws to attach the tabs. It appears that on the original, these tabs did not add anything structurally, but actually weakened the structure. I realize that welding the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs would be better, but is it really necessary? ? I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. ? Thanks, ? Rick Schreiber ? ? ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:05 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction "I knew she wasn't worth top billing." Will she wear the Opera Singer's costume and change her name to "MADAME JESSIE LUND?" Do Not archive this idiot. "idiocy is the new smartness" John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Jul 7, 2009, at 11:02 AM, amsafetyc@aol.com wrote: > > Did you say beer? > > John > ------Original Message------ > From: Mark Chunard > Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > To: Pietenpol builders Board > ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board > Sent: Jul 7, 2009 11:59 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction > > > Alright John... let's not get Ken started on the wrong foot... errr, > wing... whatever. Some of our wives actually LIKE our airplanes. > Mine is genuinely looking forward to Brodhead. She also wants to > help, specifically on the engine rebuild, and is looking forward to > a ride one day. > > I know it's hard to believe... but I'm sure there are others out > there. Maybe mine will grow tired of the idea at some point, but > she was on board at the beginning and I'll hold her to it if > necessary. So far, she's enjoying the adventure too. Hamburgers, > drawings, beer, tools, airplanes, hamburgers, sawdust, beer, fly- > ins, hamburgers, beer, airplane rides, pancakes, airports, hot dogs, > beer... what's not to like? > > -------- > Mark - working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251943#251943 > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib construction photos From: Mark Roberts Hey Ken, This might have been covered previously, so my apologies if so... where'd you get the 612 rib plans? I don't trust that I drew mine structurally sound as it simply copied the pattern from the piet rib and made the parts bigger to fit the outline of the 612... Looks like yours has some different geometry. Nice jig BTW... Mark On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Ken Howe wrote: > > Yes, I've laid out my spars perpendicular to the chord line. I looked at > setting them relative to a base line drawn tangent to the lowest points fore > and aft, but it's only a couple degrees difference if you look at the > drawing the Mark posted. I'll adjust the strut lengths to set the angle of > incidence. > > --Ken > > > Kip and Beth Gardner wrote: > >> kipandbeth@earthlink.net> >> >> Ken, >> >> Nice pictures of your rib setup. >> >> Your comments raised one question about the Riblett airfoil that I had not >> yet been able to ask that maybe you or Mr. Lowell could address. >> >> Mark Roberts mentioned a related issue in one of his posts. >> >> I see that you are setting your ribs relative to the chord line. This >> makes sense to me - if I understand things correctly, this sets the ribs at >> zero incidence relative to the spars, ands any change in incidence would >> then be set by adjusting the struts. Are you also then setting your spars >> at 90 degrees to the chord line? Again, I assume you would because that >> would make the most sense. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Kip Gardner >> >> >> On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:56 AM, Ken Howe wrote: >> >> As promised, here's a few pictures of my rib building. First of all, I >>> decided not use use staples or nails for gluing the gussets. Instead I'm >>> simply using a steel weight to apply the minimum pressure that System Three >>> says to use with T-88. The weights came from a local scrap yard - old bolts >>> and sawed up chunks of a 1 3/16" rod. I ran then over a 50 grit belt on my >>> sander to get rid of the rust and make a reasonably flat surface. To prevent >>> permanently gluing blocks of steel to my ribs I cut 3" squares of 4 mil poly >>> to place over each gusset. The epoxy is slippery enough that I just tugged >>> this way and that on the weighted piece of poly until the gusset was just >>> where I wanted it. >>> >>> The final two shots are my approach to blocking at the trailing edge and >>> around the front spar. As mentioned on the 'can of worms' thread, the >>> Riblett section is thicker than the original Piet section. I've decided size >>> the spars per the plans and use spacer's for the difference. The rear spar >>> sits directly on the bottom capstrip, and there's a small space between the >>> top of the spar and the upper strip. The airfoil section at the front spar >>> location is significantly thicker on the Riblett, and most of the extra is >>> below the chord line. I've sized a block to fit under the spar. There will >>> be just a small triangular space above the spar. I'll fill above both spars >>> with wedges when I fit the ribs on to the spars. These pictures were taken >>> with the first side glued up and the rib flipped over and sitting in a >>> simple jig to hold it securely for gluing the second side. I've also >>> inserted a wedge at the trailing edge to make that a secure joint. >>> >>> --Ken<1st Rib-0003-20090705.jpg><1st Rib-0005-20090705.jpg><1st >>> Rib-0006-20090705.jpg><1st Rib-0008-20090706.jpg><1st Rib-0009-20090706.jpg> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: A Little Off Topic From: "K5YAC" Does anyone's field look like this anymore (see pic - July 1955 Experimenter)? Just wondering... ours doesn't. Our local EAA chapter used to have a bar and everything... I've seen some of the old pictures... they used to unwind just fine in days past. Now the bar is stashed in the far corner of the hanger with boxes piled all over it and the liquor cabinet has been reduced to the back of a small kitchen cabinet, which is probably several years old. I'm proud to say that our chapter isn't just a social club... there are a lot of intelligent and experienced guys there and they are all very friendly. Many projects are being worked on and talked about, so I can understand that maybe we as builders, pilots, etc., are just focused on the task. I'm not trying to promote irresponsibility, but is it taboo nowadays? Just gone are the days? I went to our picnic on the field several weeks ago and strolled up with my frosty mug (I keep a cold keg on tap in the hangar)... I felt a little out of place as no one else had a cold can or bottle on a beautiful sunny day. I was a little surprised. Is it out of place today? I didn't get any dirty looks or rude comments or anything... but I'll probably ask a couple of club members if that stuff is out of sorts or what? What happened? Just wondering how it is elsewhere. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251954#251954 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/experimenter_185.jpg ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:17 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Little Off Topic From: "899PM" Are you coming to Brodhead? I'll save a cold Liney Bock for you. -------- PAPA MIKE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251961#251961 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Little Off Topic From: "K5YAC" Ha ha! Yes, I am making my first trip to Brodhead this year. I'll be looking for you Mike. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251962#251962 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction From: "K5YAC" Amsafetyc wrote: > Did you say beer? > > John > --- > > > K5YAC says > > and hamburgers! -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251964#251964 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:05 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New builder: An Introduction Why will her clothes fly off? mine don't fly off when I am up there. Definitely not worth archiving John **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:16 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A Little Off Topic You got no negative comments form me, the frosty cold was the best. Thanks again John **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:18 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Ed and Hans: I agree that the tabs are only useful in compression, but what has been troubling me is that I had planned on using a 1/8 inch sheet of Fiberfrax insulation behind my SS firewall. The fiberfarax is probably somewhat compressible, so my thinking was that I would not get any advantage from the tabs in compression. I have also beefed up the mounts going from the plans 0.075" to 0.09". My original worry was that if the tabs were not welded, a hard landing could cause the tabs to bend and put undue strain on the cross bolts. It seems to me that the thinner gage mounts with the tabs held by wood screws, as on the original plans, would be weaker than heaver mounts with non welded tabs. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. Sent: 7/7/2009 11:15:07 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I can't believe the time I spent on those lower mounts. I think I ended up making them three times. The tabs are there to help support the weight of the motor without putting all that shear/shock load on the bolts against the wood so the tabs are a good thing. I origionally welded the tabs together because I didn't want to drill all those screw holes in that area but got so much weld shrinkage that they wouldn't fit over the fuselage without grinding away a bunch of wood which I didn't want to do. So I made the next set one gauge heavier and longer to get an extra bolt through the longeron and bent the tabs but didn't put screws in them. Then there wasn't enough room to get sheet metal firewall material between the motor mount and the bracket so I made another set with 1/4" longer motor mount tabs. I'm not saying my way is the best way I'm just trying to point out some of the pitfalls to look out for and maybe save you some time. Ed G. From: lmforge@earthlink.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to the lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans, Bernard shows two small tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs that rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they structurally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there, some where the tabs are there, but butt welded instead of screwed into the longeron as Bernard shows. If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cross bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the longeron. On the original plans, Bernard must have used wood screws to attach the tabs. It appears that on the original, these tabs did not add anything structurally, but actually weakened the structure. I realize that welding the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs would be better, but is it really necessary? I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. Thanks, Rick Schreiber Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thats right for you. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Little Off Topic From: "K5YAC" Nope, no complaints from you, John. When are you coming back to the Port of Catoosa? Jim Markle says he is planning to make our meeting on the 20th. Any chance you'll be in town? -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251973#251973 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:36 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Little Off Topic Mark, Here are some lessons to live by: Lesson one: Never believe Markle Lesson two Markle cannot be believed Lesson three: Follow lessons one and two, then repeat, one and two one two one tw........... and so on Actually noting on the schedule yet, I expect to do a return trip during the fall maybe October, not certain though it really depends on the local plant and how much they get done. I am hoping to wrap up Catoosa by then. The good news is with the typical Markle commitment, more beer for me John Do not archive **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts From: hvandervoo@aol.com Rick, The tabs will need to go under the Stainless firewall and the Fiberfrax, that's how I did it. The plans do not call for a Stainless =C2-firewall as there simply was no FAA requirement back then. I would make the fitting 1/4" longer, from the tab forward, to compensate for the Stainless firewall and the Fiberfrax Regards Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX14KV -----Original Message----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Ed and Hans: =C2- I agree that the tabs are only useful in compression, but what has been tr oubling me is that I had planned on using a 1/8 inch sheet of Fiberfrax in sulation behind my SS firewall. The fiberfarax is probably somewhat compre ssible, so my thinking was that I would not get any advantage from the tab s in compression. I have also beefed up the mounts going from the plans 0. 075" to 0.09". =C2- My original worry was that if the tabs were not welded, a hard landing cou ld cause the tabs to bend and put undue strain on the cross bolts. It seem s to me that the thinner gage mounts with the tabs held by wood screws, as on the original plans, would be weaker than heaver mounts with non welded tabs. =C2- Rick Schreiber =C2- =C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. Sent: 7/7/2009 11:15:07 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I can't believe the time I spent on those lower mounts. I think I ended up making them thr ee times. The tabs are there to help support the weight of the motor witho ut putting all that shear/shock load on the bolts against the wood so the tabs are a good thing. I origionally welded the tabs together because I didn't want to drill all those screw holes in that area but got so much weld shrinkage that they wouldn't fit over the fuselage without grinding away a bunch of wood which I didn't want to do. So I made the next set on e gauge heavier and longer to get an extra bolt through the longeron and bent the tabs but didn't put screws in them. Then there wasn't enough roo m to get=C2-sheet metal firewall material between the motor mount and th e bracket so I made another set with 1/4" longer motor mount tabs. I'm not saying my way is the best way I'm just trying to point out some of the pi tfalls to look out for and maybe save you some time.=C2- Ed G. =C2- From: lmforge@earthlink.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to the lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans, Bernard shows two sm all tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs that rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they str ucturally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there, some where the tabs are there, but butt welde d instead of screwed into the longeron as Bernard shows. =C2- If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cro ss bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the longe ron. On the original plans, Bernard must have used wood screws to attach the tabs. It appears that on the original, these tabs did not add anythin g structurally, but actually weakened the structure. I realize that weldin g the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs wou ld be better, but is it really necessary? =C2- I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. =C2- Thanks, =C2- Rick Schreiber =C2- =C2- Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=99s right for you. ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forum s.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts From: "Bill Church" Rick, If a hard landing will cause the tabs to bend, you've got bigger worries to concern yourself with. Namely, that the cross bolts thru your longerons have either broken or elongated the holes in the wood, allowing the brackets to move relative to the wood. Additionally, if the tabs bend before the wood crushes, I'll be amazed. It will take a considerable force to un-bend a short little tab like that. I don't think there's any real need to use the wood screws (useless) or to weld the tabs together (not necessary). 99.4% of the time, the plane will be at rest, on the ground. The other 0.6% of the time, the plane will be flying. When the plane is flying, the forces acting on the brackets will be pulling it forward, and the tabs will be of no real use. When the plane is sitting on the ground, the weight of the engine (gravity) will cause the upper mounts to be pulled forward, and the bottom mounts to be pushed backwards - this is where the tabs will provide a bit of resistance against the wood, and relieve a bit of the load on the lower bolts. By beefing up the thickness of the mounts, you have made them 20% stronger (and 20% heavier). Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Ed and Hans: I agree that the tabs are only useful in compression, but what has been troubling me is that I had planned on using a 1/8 inch sheet of Fiberfrax insulation behind my SS firewall. The fiberfarax is probably somewhat compressible, so my thinking was that I would not get any advantage from the tabs in compression. I have also beefed up the mounts going from the plans 0.075" to 0.09". My original worry was that if the tabs were not welded, a hard landing could cause the tabs to bend and put undue strain on the cross bolts. It seems to me that the thinner gage mounts with the tabs held by wood screws, as on the original plans, would be weaker than heaver mounts with non welded tabs. Rick Schreiber ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:16 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88 From: "jimd" I got mine from Jamestown as well. The T-88 works well with System 3's Clear Coat epoxy, might try it if you get a chance. I was reading a manual on putting together an Acroduster and it had a whole section on T-88/Clear Coat, and I used it on all my glue surfaces and the wood leading edge, its very nice. Their was someone selling it 3 liters for $99, it mixes 2 to 1 unlike the 50/50 mix of T-88, but I believe the $99 package would be enough to do all your wood. It is very easy to tell where you have been with it, which was not the case with some of the other varnish products I tried. Like Minwax Polycrylic ,it dries and protects the wood, but it can be really hard to tell what has been covered and what has not, especially on second or third coats. jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251983#251983 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:48 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Little Off Topic A cold beer? I'll be there! At least I HOPE so! John's right, sometimes my schedule works out, sometimes it doesn't. This working for a living sure can get in the way of what's REALLY important! and wife, kids, farm, tractor(s), etc, etc, etc....... :-) They just booked my flight for the Brodhead weekend so at least "Saturday at Brodhead" will happen for me! I can hardly wait. Jim "beer me" Markle -----Original Message----- >From: K5YAC >Sent: Jul 7, 2009 1:02 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Little Off Topic > > >Nope, no complaints from you, John. > >When are you coming back to the Port of Catoosa? Jim Markle says he is planning to make our meeting on the 20th. Any chance you'll be in town? > >-------- >Mark - working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251973#251973 > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88 From: "Glenn Thomas" I buy it at Woodcraft when I run out and don't feel like waiting for an order to arrive. Don't know if you have those where you are. Costs about the same as Aircraft Spruce with the added shipping. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251993#251993 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:09 PM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Pietenpol-List: couple more Brodhead pics On Ju l 7, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Mike Simmons wrote: > > > > I am planning to make it to my first Brodhead reunion fairly late > Friday night/Sat. morning. From searching the archives, sounds like > it's OK to just find a spot to pitch your tent amongst the others > and find the bucket for a donation. Is this still true? Is there any > insight as to where to park or are the instructions pretty clear > once you get there? Any advice on what to do from some of those > reunion veterans out there would be much appreciated > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe From: "Don Emch" It'd be nice if the Pietenpol Fly-in drew that many planes, but it doesn't. I think that shot is of the GrassRoots Fly-in held in September. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252000#252000 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: couple more Brodhead pics From: "Don Emch" Now that looks more like it! Those even look like Pietenpols down there. Nice pics! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252001#252001 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:32 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plywoods From: "Glenn Thomas" For New Englanders, Boulter also has aircraft grade mil spec ply and a basement full of Sitka Spruce planks that you can have them grade (yes, they know the specs for aircraft grading, I quizzed him) and you get it a little cheaper if you want to dig through the piles and select your own pieces. They are a small storefront but seem to have a lot of interconnected buildings and basements in Somerville, MA, just outside of Boston. I have purchased both 1/8" Finnish Birch and Okume from them and they are very reasonable. ...although I will probably buy spars from Aircraft Spruce :( or Wicks. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252002#252002 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Looking for someone. From: "Glenn Thomas" That is definitely Walt Evans' Piet. Got my first Piet ride in that plane and will never forget it. It's a work of art. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252003#252003 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:42 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Bill, Ed and Hans: Thanks for the replies. I plan on putting the tabs in, with no screws or welding. Hans that is a good idea about just putting the tabs against the wood firewall with the fiberfrax and stainless firewall on top. I just spent the last 3 hours laying out, cutting and drilling the 4 top motor mounts. Why is it that such a few small fittings always seems to take much longer to make than you expect.! Its a nice day here in NW Indiana. I'm going to the airport and shoot some landings and then drink a couple of cold ones with the rest of the hanger rats. Thanks again for the help. I'm sure its saved me a lot of grief. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Sent: 7/7/2009 1:43:45 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Rick, If a hard landing will cause the tabs to bend, you've got bigger worries to concern yourself with. Namely, that the cross bolts thru your longerons have either broken or elongated the holes in the wood, allowing the brackets to move relative to the wood. Additionally, if the tabs bend before the wood crushes, I'll be amazed. It will take a considerable force to un-bend a short little tab like that. I don't think there's any real need to use the wood screws (useless) or to weld the tabs together (not necessary). 99.4% of the time, the plane will be at rest, on the ground. The other 0.6% of the time, the plane will be flying. When the plane is flying, the forces acting on the brackets will be pulling it forward, and the tabs will be of no real use. When the plane is sitting on the ground, the weight of the engine (gravity) will cause the upper mounts to be pulled forward, and the bottom mounts to be pushed backwards - this is where the tabs will provide a bit of resistance against the wood, and relieve a bit of the load on the lower bolts. By beefing up the thickness of the mounts, you have made them 20% stronger (and 20% heavier). Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Ed and Hans: I agree that the tabs are only useful in compression, but what has been troubling me is that I had planned on using a 1/8 inch sheet of Fiberfrax insulation behind my SS firewall. The fiberfarax is probably somewhat compressible, so my thinking was that I would not get any advantage from the tabs in compression. I have also beefed up the mounts going from the plans 0.075" to 0.09". My original worry was that if the tabs were not welded, a hard landing could cause the tabs to bend and put undue strain on the cross bolts. It seems to me that the thinner gage mounts with the tabs held by wood screws, as on the original plans, would be weaker than heaver mounts with non welded tabs. Rick Schreiber ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:46 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: couple more Brodhead pics That looks better than the last picture that was sent out. I vote for Brodhead with grass... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roman Bukolt Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: couple more Brodhead pics On Ju ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Czech Piet From: "Baldeagle" http://hobby.idnes.cz/ultralight-se-da-postavit-i-v-podkrovi-domku-potrebujete-pul-milionu-a-6-let-1br-/hobby-dilna.asp?c-90608_205735_hobby-dilna_bma - Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252019#252019 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:28 PM PST US From: Terry Williams <7ecapilot@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Someone should record it. tw On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:54 AM, johnwoods@westnet.com.au wrote: > ... > I wish I could be at Brodhead to hear Mr Pieti Lowell's forum on > the 612's performance. > ... ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:44 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? If someone could please find out the fuel situation at Brodhead and post it to the list, that would be helpful - it will make some difference to me, as to whether I stop at Poplar Grove for fuel before landing at Brodhead. Last year I went to Monroe for fuel. Not too bad and not too far away, but it is much simpler if they have fuel at Brodhead. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick N. Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? Thanks for bringing that up, Ryan. I don't know anything current about fuel at Brodhead. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Mueller" Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 6:43 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? > > Dick, > > You mentioned planes making fuel stops on the way to OSH; do we know for > sure that there is or will be fuel this year at Brodhead? I ask because > the last I heard was from a friend that volunteered at the pancake > breakfast towards the latter part of May, and he made a comment in an > email about trying to do Young Eagles at the event with no fuel on the > field. The last mention on the 431 website was of fencing being installed > in May that brings things closer to operational status, but no mention of > when or if they will actually be back up. I know that was over a month > ago, but it may be worth confirming if they will actually have the new > tanks running in time. Anyone else know any more current news? > > Ryan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:29 PM, "Dick N." wrote: > >> > >> >> Reply for Lorin and Steve Sadler >> There is camping on the field at Brodhead. There is plenty of camping >> space. No electrical hookups or waste dumps. There are are showers >> available and some food service. The walk into town is short to >> McDonalds, Subway and other places. There is a grocery store and >> hardware store in town. Brodhead is a very small town and the airport >> is to the south of the main hwy just west of the McDonalds. This is an >> informal event, they sell buttons, $5, to help with expenses. There is >> also a Hatz bi plane flying on the other end of the field. Also there >> are some mighty nice planes making fuel stops on the way to OSH. >> Dick N. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ldmill" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:08 PM >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead visit - help camping?? >> >> >>> > >>> >>> Folks, >>> I'm heading to Brodhead this year for the first time. I've volunteered >>> to help haul camping gear and fuel to Oshkosh for those flying over to >>> Oshkosh en-mass. I'll be bringing up my enclosed 16' toy hauler for >>> this. >>> Question for you - where is a good place to camp at nearby where I can >>> grab a shower? I don't want to be too far away as loading the trailer >>> would otherwise be painful. >>> >>> Lorin Miller >>> >>> lorin.miller@emerson.com >>> 641-485-0840 >>> Sonex/Waiex ~80% done >>> Piet next up >>> Colo, Iowa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251803#251803 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:19 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Czech Piet Aside from the nice work, the best part of that was seeing it come out of the 2nd story workshop! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Baldeagle Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Czech Piet http://hobby.idnes.cz/ultralight-se-da-postavit-i-v-podkrovi-domku-potrebuje te-pul-milionu-a-6-let-1br-/hobby-dilna.asp?c-90608_205735_hobby-dilna_bma - Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252019#252019 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:53 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts There's no requirement now for a stainless steel firewall. Mine is galvanized iron. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Rick, The tabs will need to go under the Stainless firewall and the Fiberfrax, that's how I did it. The plans do not call for a Stainless firewall as there simply was no FAA requirement back then. I would make the fitting 1/4" longer, from the tab forward, to compensate for the Stainless firewall and the Fiberfrax Regards Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX14KV -----Original Message----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Ed and Hans: I agree that the tabs are only useful in compression, but what has been troubling me is that I had planned on using a 1/8 inch sheet of Fiberfrax insulation behind my SS firewall. The fiberfarax is probably somewhat compressible, so my thinking was that I would not get any advantage from the tabs in compression. I have also beefed up the mounts going from the plans 0.075" to 0.09". My original worry was that if the tabs were not welded, a hard landing could cause the tabs to bend and put undue strain on the cross bolts. It seems to me that the thinner gage mounts wit h the tabs held by wood screws, as on the original plans, would be weaker than heaver mounts with non welded tabs. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. Sent: 7/7/2009 11:15:07 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I can't believe the time I spent on those lower mounts. I think I ended up making them three times. The tabs are there to help support the weight of the motor without putting all that shear/shock load on the bolts against the wood so the tabs are a good thing. I origionally welded the tabs together because I didn't want to drill all those screw holes in that area but got so much weld shrinkage that they wouldn't fit over the fuselage without grinding away a bunch of wood which I didn't want to do. So I made the next set one gauge heavier and longer to get an extra bolt through the longeron and bent the tabs but didn't put screws in them. Then there wasn't enough room to get sheet metal firewall material between the motor mount and the bracket so I made another set with 1/4" longer motor mount tabs. I'm not saying my way is the best way I'm just trying to point out some of the pitfalls to look out for and maybe save you some time. Ed G. _____ From: lmforge@earthlink.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to the lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans, Bernard shows two small tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs that rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they structurally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there, some where the tabs are there, but butt welded instead of screwed into the longeron as Bernard shows. If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cross bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the lo ngeron. On the original plans, Bernard must have used wood screws to attach the tabs. It appears that on the original, these tabs did not add anything structurally, but actually weakened the structure. I realize that welding the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs would be better, but is it really necessary? I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. Thanks, Rick Schreiber _____ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that 's right for you. =================================== t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ======================== tp://forums.matronics.com =================================== _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== _____ Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:10 PM PST US From: Terry Williams <7ecapilot@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AIrfoil can of worms? Sorry, it has taken me a few days to get through email trail. Did someone record Mr. Lowell's presentation? tw On Jul 7, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Terry Williams wrote: > Someone should record it. > > tw > > On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:54 AM, johnwoods@westnet.com.au wrote: > >> ... >> I wish I could be at Brodhead to hear Mr Pieti Lowell's forum on >> the 612's performance. >> ... > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:15 PM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Czech Piet That's neat. my Czechoslovak is not to good (heck my English is marginal) but according to this : "historick kopie modelu GN1 Aircamper " we can make out that it is GN1 Michael in Maine where its raining again for a change.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baldeagle" > > http://hobby.idnes.cz/ultralight-se-da-postavit-i-v-podkrovi-domku-potrebujete-pul-milionu-a-6-let-1br-/hobby-dilna.asp?c-90608_205735_hobby-dilna_bma > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:57 PM PST US From: "x GOYENI " Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Dan, Wow, what activity in the list !!! Two days and dozens of entries. Santiago talked me about his trip to Brodhead in the Aeronca and the strong impression of the meeting there. I have not even started the construction and hope to find there the inspiration to start soon. See you next Friday 24. Juan GOYENI ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Juan, Good for you that you are able to attend the Pietenpol gathering this year. We always welcome our South American friends. Last year we had Santiago Morete, from Santa Rosa Argentina with us. He was able to get several rides in Piets and other airplanes as well. Make sure and bring with you a DETAILED list of supplies, hardware, etc. that you need for your project. Virtually anything can be purchased at Oshkosh. Santiago was able to buy hardware, control cable, headsets, seat belts etc. while he was there. I will look forward to meeting you and your son Frederico. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: x GOYENI Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2009 4:56 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Hello everybody, Finally, I am going to Brodhead with my son Federico. We are arriving at noon on Friday and stay there until Sunday. I look forward to meet members of this list and enjoy the friendship and camaraderie of these events. Then, the entire week at AirVenture. See you there. Juan GOYENI URUGUAY ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Czech Piet From: Mark Roberts Hey Gary: I know what you mean about the shot of it coming out of the 2nd story window! Heck, I thought it was bad that my garage is smaller than I'd like! I gots it easy! Mark On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Michael Silvius wrote: > > That's neat. > > my Czechoslovak is not to good (heck my English is marginal) but accordin g > to this : > "historick=E9 kopie modelu GN1 Aircamper " we can make out that it is GN1 > > Michael in Maine where its raining again for a change.... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Baldeagle" > > > > > > http://hobby.idnes.cz/ultralight-se-da-postavit-i-v-podkrovi-domku-potreb ujete-pul-milionu-a-6-let-1br-/hobby-dilna.asp?c-90608_205735_hobby-dil na_bma > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:06 PM PST US From: airlion@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Czech Piet I just called brodhead airport manager about fuel availability. He said that do not have fuel yet, so plan for it. Gardiner Mason -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mark Roberts > > Hey Gary: I know what you mean about the shot of it coming out of the 2nd > story window! Heck, I thought it was bad that my garage is smaller than I'd > like! I gots it easy! > > Mark > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Michael Silvius wrote: > > > > > That's neat. > > > > my Czechoslovak is not to good (heck my English is marginal) but according > > to this : > > "historick kopie modelu GN1 Aircamper " we can make out that it is GN1 > > > > Michael in Maine where its raining again for a change.... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Baldeagle" > > > > > > > > > > > http://hobby.idnes.cz/ultralight-se-da-postavit-i-v-podkrovi-domku-potrebujete-p > ul-milionu-a-6-let-1br-/hobby-dilna.asp?c-90608_205735_hobby-dilna_bma > > > > > > > > > > =========== > =========== > =========== > =========== > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:33 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Juan, You'll find a world of helpful, friendly people at Brodhead. We always open our arms and our hearts to international visitors and look forward to meeting you there. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, North Carolina -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of x GOYENI Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Dan, Wow, what activity in the list !!! Two days and dozens of entries. Santiago talked me about his trip to Brodhead in the Aeronca and the strong impression of the meeting there. I have not even started the construction and hope to find there the inspiration to start soon. See you next Friday 24. Juan GOYENI ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Juan, Good for you that you are able to attend the Pietenpol gathering this year. We always welcome our South American friends. Last year we had Santiago Morete, from Santa Rosa Argentina with us. He was able to get several rides in Piets and other airplanes as well. Make sure and bring with you a DETAILED list of supplies, hardware, etc. that you need for your project. Virtually anything can be purchased at Oshkosh. Santiago was able to buy hardware, control cable, headsets, seat belts etc. while he was there. I will look forward to meeting you and your son Frederico. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: x GOYENI Sent: Sat, Jul 4, 2009 4:56 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead/AirVenture Hello everybody, Finally, I am going to Brodhead with my son Federico. We are arriving at noon on Friday and stay there until Sunday. I look forward to meet members of this list and enjoy the friendship and camaraderie of these events. Then, the entire week at AirVenture. See you there. Juan GOYENI URUGUAY ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:59 PM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe Yes it was the Grass Roots fly-in. I mentioned that in the email. Roman Bukolt NX20795 do not archive On Jul 7, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Don Emch wrote: > > It'd be nice if the Pietenpol Fly-in drew that many planes, but it > doesn't. I think that shot is of the GrassRoots Fly-in held in > September. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252000#252000 > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead camping - reunion newbe From: "Don Emch" Sorry about that Roman. If I would have actually 'read' the post I would have seen that. Now let me see if I can get my foot out of my mouth! Sorry about that! Don do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252059#252059 ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:22 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I'm using stainless since I have access to a free supply :>) Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: 7/7/2009 6:06:44 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Theres no requirement now for a stainless steel firewall. Mine is galvanized iron. Jack Phillips NX899JP From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Rick, The tabs will need to go under the Stainless firewall and the Fiberfrax, that's how I did it. The plans do not call for a Stainless firewall as there simply was no FAA requirement back then. I would make the fitting 1/4" longer, from the tab forward, to compensate for the Stainless firewall and the Fiberfrax Regards Hans van der Voort Pietenpol NX14KV -----Original Message----- From: Richard Schreiber Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts Ed and Hans: I agree that the tabs are only useful in compression, but what has been troubling me is that I had planned on using a 1/8 inch sheet of Fiberfrax insulation behind my SS firewall. The fiberfarax is probably somewhat compressible, so my thinking was that I would not get any advantage from the tabs in compression. I have also beefed up the mounts going from the plans 0.075" to 0.09". My original worry was that if the tabs were not welded, a hard landing could cause the tabs to bend and put undue strain on the cross bolts. It seems to me that the thinner gage mounts wit h the tabs held by wood screws, as on the original plans, would be weaker than heaver mounts with non welded tabs. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. Sent: 7/7/2009 11:15:07 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I can't believe the time I spent on those lower mounts. I think I ended up making them three times. The tabs are there to help support the weight of the motor without putting all that shear/shock load on the bolts against the wood so the tabs are a good thing. I origionally welded the tabs together because I didn't want to drill all those screw holes in that area but got so much weld shrinkage that they wouldn't fit over the fuselage without grinding away a bunch of wood which I didn't want to do. So I made the next set one gauge heavier and longer to get an extra bolt through the longeron and bent the tabs but didn't put screws in them. Then there wasn't enough room to get sheet metal firewall material between the motor mount and the bracket so I made another set with 1/4" longer motor mount tabs. I'm not saying my way is the best way I'm just trying to point out some of the pitfalls to look out for and maybe save you some time. Ed G. From: lmforge@earthlink.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: motor mounts I have a question about the lower motor mount fittings that are bolted to the lower fuselage longerons. On the original plans, Bernard shows two small tabs that are bent at right angles to the fitting. These are the tabs that rest against the firewall. My question is how necessary are they structurally? I have some photos of finished Piets where they are not there, some where the tabs are there, but butt welded instead of screwed into the longeron as Bernard shows. If the upper tab is screwed in place. it will interfere with the upper cross bolt. The lower tab screw will be very close to the bottom of the lo ngeron. On the original plans, Bernard must have used wood screws to attach the tabs. It appears that on the original, these tabs did not add anything structurally, but actually weakened the structure. I realize that welding the left and right halves of the lower fittings together at the tabs would be better, but is it really necessary? I have attached a drawing showing the fiiting. Thanks, Rick Schreiber Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC thats right for you. =================================== t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ======================== tp://forums.matronics.com =================================== _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== Stay cool with this summer's hottest movies. Moviefone brings you trailers, celebrities, movie showtimes and tickets! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:29 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Gathering NX92GB, has 6 inch azzuza wheels, and I think they are 3/4 axles, but not sure. They are the standard 6 inch Azzua's so what ever axle they use thats what we have. We have over 300 landings (a wild ass guess) and Knock ..knock, no problems so far. I know I have made some less than perfect landings, and ploped her on a few times, and not broke the axles. They are a fairly thick wall thickness compared to cleveland style axles, I am guessing .090-.125 wall thickness. Hope this helps! 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