---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/21/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:21 AM - Re: Airfoils (Gene & Tammy) 2. 04:43 AM - Re: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil (airlion) 3. 05:21 AM - Pietenpol has drag written all over it (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 4. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil (Skip Gadd) 5. 08:05 AM - Re: Airfoils (Don Emch) 6. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil (Dan Yocum) 7. 09:23 AM - Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil (Jerry Dotson) 8. 08:39 PM - Re: This is too great not to share (regchief) 9. 09:47 PM - Brodhead pics (Ryan Mueller) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:45 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoils Right on Oscar! Good post. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoils > > > Ameet: > > If you're on the Yahoo "airfoils" list, go back and search > the files archives for a couple of very good articles > that Mike Shuck published regarding his analyses of > the Pietenpol airfoil vs. several others, such as the > USA35 and the NACA 441x series. There are also comparisons > of the Riblett airfoils to the Pietenpol. All in all, > I think you'll find, after much study, that Mr. Pietenpol > was a very smart cookie and that it would be hard to > beat him at his own game when trying to find a better > airfoil for HIS Air Camper design. Very hard to beat him. > > My own experience? All I can compare it to is Citabria, > J-3 and Super Cub time. Not tons of time, but enough > to know the differences in feel and performance. My > opinion is that the Pietenpol is a very sweet flying > airplane both in climb, cruise, descent, and stall, > with Mr. Pietenpol's own custom airfoil. While the Cub > is docile with all that wing and not much weight or > power, the Piet lands much more positively with minimal > float and yet doesn't really bite you hard if you let the > airspeed crumble on short final... it just reminds you > of the laws of aerodynamics. "Widow-maker"-? Hardly. > > In cruise, there is truly no benefit to making a Piet > go faster. That point has been driven home to me even > more now that I have a 75 HP engine on mine. The airplane > is just not happy flying faster than 70-75 MPH, especially > in anything other than perfectly smooth air. It's not > about going faster in this airplane, and if 70-75 is not > the target airspeed for you, then neither is the Air Camper. > > Stall? I left power at cruise on my airplane at 4000' > while seating the rings and started pulling back on the > stick till it stalled. Which it didn't, ever. It sort > of settled and mushed but never fell off on a wing, > didn't even bob the nose- and the ASI was showing in the > low 30's but I didn't believe that because of the prop > blast from the engine at cruise power and the relatively > high angle of attack. With power off and a controlled > approach to stall, it will gently nose-bob all afternoon > long as long as I stay on the rudder pedals. No widows > were made in the testing of my Piet, and I am NOT afraid > of this airplane in any controlled flight regime. There > is simply nothing harsh about the Air Camper no matter > how many years pass, how many generations of builders and > pilots try to analyze and improve it, and how many new > airfoil analysts come along. Yes, you can handle it > poorly and make it do some bad things and yes, you can > search for and find the limits of the control surface > travels, but not without some effort. This is a light > sport aircraft and if it's operated that way, it's as > honest as the dollar used to be before we broke the law > and stopped requiring the government to back every dollar > with some gold or silver in Fort Knox. > > The best thing that can be said about the Pietenpol airfoil > is that it is EXTREMELY time-tested and dependable. The > worst that can be said about it, in my opinion, is that it > is an undercambered airfoil that makes it just a tad fussier > to construct in fabric, if you can even call that a drawback. > > I thought we were only supposed to have theoretical > discussions on this list when it was too cold and wet outside > to glue wood or work in the shop or to go fly our open-cockpit > airplanes, but things have gotten off to an early start > this season. It's still over 100F every day here in S. Texas > and I'll be flying for months yet... > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 18:06:00 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:17 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil thanks Jerry. the reason I am concerned is that a lot of people say that you have to add power on landing. I have never done that and hope that I never will. By the way, why are you putting on an 0235? I am using a corvair for performance. Cheers, Gardiner ----- Original Message ---- From: Jerry Dotson Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:04:39 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil Gardiner the only experience I have with vortex generators is a friend has a Savage ( J3 look alike but AIN'T). He said that if you are not careful on landing you will make lots of "firm" landings. He put a set of those little clear plastic vortex generators on it and cured the firm landings. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258909#258909 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:35 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol has drag written all over it I enjoyed reading Shad and Oscar's no-nonsense posts to the list about how Pietenpols fly and stall. (or sometimes don't stall even at high AOA's with full power--- I concur exactly with Oscar's f indings that unless I whip stall my Piet with full power-she doesn't stall at all but just mushes.) Anyway, there is so much drag that is inherent to the Pietenpol with all o f those cables, turnbuckles, cabane struts, windshields, bodies sticking out, jury struts, landing gears with (sometimes) two sets o f cables and turnbuckles it simply bleeds off speed more quickly in the landing flare than a Cub or Champ. You approach more steep ly power off in a Piet than you do in a Cub or Champ.....thus the reason you'll hear and see quite a few Piet pilots on short final with a tad of power still in there to flatten out the approach---watch some of Jeff's videos and you'll hear power reductions just before flare in many of those landings at Brodhead-very typical. If you come in completely power idle in a Piet vs. a Cub or Champ-you'll fl oat in a Cub or Champ compared to a Piet. Shad is right on regarding cruise too. Even if you have an 0-200 or 0-235 you'll get more cruise speed (but not enough to write home about) but the airplane starts to talk to you (not pretty like either) at around 8 0 mph and up. At 90- 95 the airplane is really screaming and you feel like you're going 160 trying to pull all that drag thru the air. If you're looking for increased cruise speeds---don't count on a Pietenpol to get you there faster. You can fair all the fittings and str uts, you can do little things to reduce drag but that isn't the point of a Pietenpol. You'd be better off to build an RV if you want to cruise faster. Takeoff on warm days with a full size adult is where you want (in my opinio n) MORE WING area.....and perhaps MORE power. Mostly----- don't add bunches of weight, bells and whistles, and if you're 265 pounds-- -build something else or go on a diet-seriously. I am amazed at why huge guys are so attracted to such a limited, small airplane but the y are. (I know---they are chick magnets and you want to be surrounded at fly-in's:) ) Enough of my editorializing but Don Emch is R IGHT on the money-built light, built closely to plans with a good 65 hp, Corvair, or good-power outputting Ford (Ken Perkins, Lowell Frank, H oward Henderson) they do great. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:37 AM PST US From: "Skip Gadd" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil Gardiner, P F Beck has vortex generators on his Piet. If I recall correctly he says they help everything but top speed. Skip > > Hey guys, with all this discussion about different airfoils, has anybody tried vortex generetors? I have the BP wing and I don't want to spend the time to build a new one. My piet is to the plans with a 3 ft. centersection. Not flying yet, but will be soon. Gardiner Mason > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Airfoils From: "Don Emch" Amen to that Oscar. That is probably the most "well put" explanation on the Piet's flying qualities I've heard. It really is a sweet flying airplane. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258969#258969 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:18 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil Doug Dever wrote: > Someone has installed vortex gen. I forget who. It did make a gentler > stall. He ahd a unique wing in that someone had used alum for the > leading edge and it distorted badly when the fabric was > shrunk. Dunno or don't remember if it had any other effect. Jeff Boatright installed 'em. There was a discussion on the list not too long ago - you should be able to find them in the archives. Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: original Pietenpol wing air foil From: "Jerry Dotson" Gardiner, The reason for the O-235 is I couldn't find an O-200 reasonable with low total hours. I found this O-235 for $2000 with only 2100 hour total time. When I major it I don't expect to spend a huge amount on it. My runway is only 1300 feet and I am afraid an A-65 would make for some sweaty palms at times. There are a couple of guys in the UK that have O-235's and they like them. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258984#258984 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: This is too great not to share From: "regchief" Your post caused me to finally register . I have been lurking around for about a year, hopefully to learn as much as I can, as I would like to build a piet in my future. I happened to be a crew chief on KC-135's during a 16 year stint in the air force, and was stationed at Beale from 1979-1983. The SR-71 program was a wonderful time in my life, and I totally enjoyed watching the video and remembering how many missions and how many times I watched the "sled" pull in behind my airplane for some much needed gas. I am now a member of the Civil Air Patrol,,, a chance to give back to younger people some of the great training I had in the Air Force. I have recently trained for the first position in the back seat of a CAP airplane, and hope that I will finally realize a 35 year old dream to fly myself. Thanks again for the posts,, and hope to become part of the Piet family here Kelly James Bosley Emergency Services Officer CO-179 Pueblo,Colorado Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259054#259054 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead pics From: Ryan Mueller Just got an email yesterday from our friend Brian Law, a Chapter 431 volunteer. Brian was graciously storing our Piet until we found our new digs, and he was the gentleman responsible for helping Jess serve the fantastic pulled pork on Friday night, setting up the AV system so the 'Finding Flight' crew could show their movie, and helping to serve breakfast on Saturday morning. Since he was stuck at his tasks for much of his time at the flyin he asked if I could take some pictures of the Piet and Hatz areas for 431's website, since he could not (he's also a computer guru, and runs a business doing computer 'stuff'). I took my pics with that in mind, and I think he got out later to take a few, and they have posted a selection of those on the 431 website: http://eaa431.org/images/piet_09/index.html If you look on page 6, down on the bottom row, you will find a group of guys and one hot chick watching Gardiner put his fingerprints all over Kurt Shipman's purty Piet. I can even prove it is Gardiner, as he was wearing the same outfit later on that evening: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/3844690202/sizes/l/. ;) I know this is not in the same thread, but to Kelly: there are two concrete steps you can take to become part of the Piet community. #1, buy a set of plans (http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/) and start building. #2, buy a plane ticket to Wisconsin and come to the Piet fly-in at Brodhead next year. It will be the biggest 'shot-in-the-arm' inspiration you could ever hope to find, and you will get to meet many of the really neat people that populate this list. It really changes the perception from that of being a part of a community on the 'net to one of being part of a community that just happens to use the 'net to communicate, if that makes sense. Have a good night, Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.