Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 08/28/09


Total Messages Posted: 35



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:09 AM - Re: Re: ASSCO,inc (Clif Dawson)
     2. 01:40 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Robert Ray)
     3. 01:42 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Robert Ray)
     4. 04:50 AM - portable tie downs (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
     5. 05:35 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Michael Perez)
     6. 06:42 AM - Re: portable tie downs (TOM STINEMETZE)
     7. 07:11 AM - Re: Riblett 612 (Ken Chambers)
     8. 08:48 AM - Questionare (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
     9. 08:56 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Bill Church)
    10. 09:41 AM - Re: assertiveness training (Dan Yocum)
    11. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Dan Yocum)
    12. 10:19 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Dan Yocum)
    13. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Ryan Mueller)
    14. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Gary Boothe)
    15. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Bill Church)
    16. 10:48 AM - Re: any real WWII aviation historians here? (Mike Whaley)
    17. 10:51 AM - doggie augers (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
    18. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
    19. 11:14 AM - Re: any real WWII aviation historians here? (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
    20. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Dan Yocum)
    21. 11:17 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Bill Church)
    22. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Dan Yocum)
    23. 11:22 AM - Re: doggie augers (Jack Phillips)
    24. 11:37 AM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Ryan Mueller)
    25. 11:54 AM - Re: doggie augers (Bill Church)
    26. 12:24 PM - Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets (Dan Yocum)
    27. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Bill Church)
    28. 01:22 PM - Almost time to start covering this thing (Rick Holland)
    29. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Jeff Boatright)
    30. 02:37 PM - Re: Almost time to start covering this thing (skellytown flyer)
    31. 02:49 PM - Re: [piet] Re: Re: portable tie downs (Mike Whaley)
    32. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: ASSCO,inc (Ross Alexander)
    33. 03:54 PM - Re: nicopress sleeve sizes (joe motis)
    34. 08:49 PM - Re: Engine question (Rick Holland)
    35. 09:04 PM - Re: Re: portable tie downs (Clif Dawson)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:09:08 AM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: ASSCO,inc
    I know what a Timesert is but what's an Assert? Clif > I am gonna assert myself and you all will be proud of the new me! > > John


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:40:04 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    From: Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com>
    I'm not sure as to whether I'll use the baltic birch I have or buy some GL-2, I have a different batch than the ply I boiled tested, you really have to take a piece of birch and a piece of okume in your hand, try it take a piece say 2'' by 10'' one okume and one baltic birch then try to break them with your hands then you get a measure of the strength of each and the birch is almost the same ratio of strength to weight as 4130 steel. There are no gaps that I can find in the birch, the outer plys have no knots of foot balls and you can't break it with your hands, the okume snaps pretty easy. You have to try this to get the feel for it. However what you said makes sense if building a plane why not just buy some gl-1 or 2 birch you don't have to buy that much to do the gussets, probably one 4x4 sheet would do it. So yes I agree with you. I may however experiment a little more and soak the birch in the bath tub just to see if it de laminates. I think if it holds I may use it making sure that it is completely soaked in epoxy and then spar urethane where absolutely no water can get in. Like I said I worry about the aging of the glue, is it prone over time to deteriorate. I may do some research on the glue type and see. I currently have a camper on my pickup with a large door built out of this Baltic birch so far it has faired the weather well but then I can't wait forever so test every piece of lumber and must go forward.


    Message 3


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    Time: 01:42:52 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    From: Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com>
    I enjoy the discussion and need to here other peoples opinions and I appreciate it. No man is an Island unless he wants to crash. Russell On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not sure as to whether I'll use the baltic birch I have or buy some > GL-2, > I have a different batch than the ply I boiled tested, you really have to > take > a piece of birch and a piece of okume in your hand, try it take a piece > say 2'' by 10'' one okume and one baltic birch then try to break them > with your hands then you get a measure of the strength of each and the > birch > is almost the same ratio of strength to weight as 4130 steel. > There are no gaps that I can find in the birch, the outer plys have no > knots > of foot balls and you can't break it with your hands, the okume snaps > pretty easy. You have to try this to get the feel for it. However what you > said > makes sense if building a plane why not just buy some gl-1 or 2 birch you > don't have to buy that much to do the gussets, probably one 4x4 sheet would > do > it. So yes I agree with you. I may however experiment a little more > and soak the birch in the bath tub just to see if it de laminates. > I think if it holds I may use it making sure that it is completely soaked > in epoxy > and then spar urethane where absolutely no water can get in. > Like I said I worry about the aging of the glue, is it prone over time > to deteriorate. I may do some research on the glue type and see. > I currently have a camper on my pickup with a large door built out of this > Baltic > birch so far it has faired the weather well but then I can't wait forever > so test every piece of lumber and must go forward. > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:50:22 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: portable tie downs
    Ryan-the Flyties go in the ground as shown in this photo. In comparison to the Claw, whose spikes point in toward each other, the Flyties point away or diverge from each other and also do so wit h a 'radial twist', if you will, as they are driven in the ground. [cid:image003.jpg@01CA27B2.2BECC680] http://www.flyties.com/


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:35:12 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    Hello Robert. I am not going to tell you what to use on your plane, what no t to use or anything of that nature...unless you ask me too! I will say thi s:- Keep in mind...weight. That is one of the critical factors in a small , drag prone aircraft. Any "performance" gain you can get will pay off in t he long run and being mind full of weight is easy to do and saves some mone y. Lastly, also keep in mind that the wood pieces will-ultimately be cove red with some type of protection for moisture and rot as well as glue/adhes ives, fabric, paint, etc. You may even keep it in a hangar and not left out side in the elements. - -


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:42:40 AM PST US
    From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS@mcpcity.com>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    >>> Obviously, I spend too much time in the hardware store! Ah contrair mine frerre. Nobody can spend too much time in a hardware store. unh! unh! unh! do not archive


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:11:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Riblett 612
    From: Ken Chambers <ken.riffic@gmail.com>
    Hey Mark You may have the wrong Ken. I have built a bunch of 612 ribs (30+) but I'm not the one who sent you photos. Ken Chambers On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>wrote: > Hi Ken: > > Thanks so much for the pictures! I haven't been able to get into the shop > yet as I am waiting for the sale of all of my RC model stuff to finish up > (Liquidating it all after many years collecting stuff... Crud: I could have > owned a well engined Piet for what I sunk into models over the years). > > In the mean time, while watching TV with my lovely wife, I have drawn out > the 613.5 airfoil as well and was looking at the 612 and 613.5 by > comparison. > > Thanks again for the jig pics. Seeing how you made it and the steamer (cat > included.... we have 3) was a help. > > Mark > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:16 AM, <jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com>wrote: > >> >> Ken, >> >> great pictures, one comment though, instead of wrapping the top of your >> bending soaker pipe with towels and risking damaging the towels use the cat >> that is sitting on the chair, the tail makes a great handle for pulling it >> out of the tube, and you can stuff it in with the next cap strip. ;-) >> >> Jake >> >> do not archive >> >> * >> >> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > * > > * > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:48:12 AM PST US
    From: AMsafetyC@aol.com
    Subject: Questionare
    I received this and thought that others may be interested in making their opinions known. Its not to often Tom asks but anyone having an opinion should express it, John Dear EAA MEMBER, Since its founding in 1953 EAA members have served as a dynamic and vibrant force of innovation and change in aviation. The passionate spiri t of EAA members has led to a growing and dynamic organization that has expanded along with the interests of members. I would appreciate your candid response to the survey below because it will help us better serve all EAA members. We want to hear what you have to say! The survey should take only a few minutes to complete. Please complete th e survey by September 6. ======================== ======================== =========== Please take the EAA Membership Survey now! _http://www.zipsurvey.com/LaunchSurvey.aspx?ieid=4410051&key=1569CACF_ (http://www.zipsurvey.com/LaunchSurvey.aspx?ieid=4410051&key=1569CACF) ======================== ======================== =========== I=99ll be personally reviewing the results, along with EAA staff. Your feelings about your EAA membership are extremely important. The feedback you can provide will help us ensure that your organization provides the valued information and programs that you are looking for. Thank you for being a member of EAA and for assisting in this important research. After taking a deep breath and recovering from the excitement of AirVenture Oshkosh 2009 we will be reviewing the results of the conventi on and begin planning for improvements for EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2010. We hope to see you and your fellow members there July 26-August 1! Sincerely, Tom Poberezny, EAA President


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:56:26 AM PST US
    Subject: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Sounds like a plan, Russell. Would hate to see all the work that goes into building a Piet go to waste just for a few dollars "savings". Occasionally one hears about an airplane being restored, and when the old fabric is removed, the structure basically falls apart - the only thing holding the structure together was the fabric. Wouldn't want to be trusting my life to something like that. Glad to hear you're going to proceed with caution. Bill C.. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Ray Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 4:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Okoume and fuselage gussets I'm not sure as to whether I'll use the baltic birch I have or buy some GL-2, I have a different batch than the ply I boiled tested, you really have to take a piece of birch and a piece of okume in your hand, try it take a piece say 2'' by 10'' one okume and one baltic birch then try to break them with your hands then you get a measure of the strength of each and the birch is almost the same ratio of strength to weight as 4130 steel. There are no gaps that I can find in the birch, the outer plys have no knots of foot balls and you can't break it with your hands, the okume snaps pretty easy. You have to try this to get the feel for it. However what you said makes sense if building a plane why not just buy some gl-1 or 2 birch you don't have to buy that much to do the gussets, probably one 4x4 sheet would do it. So yes I agree with you. I may however experiment a little more and soak the birch in the bath tub just to see if it de laminates. I think if it holds I may use it making sure that it is completely soaked in epoxy and then spar urethane where absolutely no water can get in. Like I said I worry about the aging of the glue, is it prone over time to deteriorate. I may do some research on the glue type and see. I currently have a camper on my pickup with a large door built out of this Baltic birch so far it has faired the weather well but then I can't wait forever so test every piece of lumber and must go forward.


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:41:42 AM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: assertiveness training
    My Polish mother-in-law liked to tell me a saying from the old country that goes something like this: A husband is the head of the family, but the wife is the neck. And the neck always turns the head in the direction it wants the head to go. And let me tell you, those Polish woman know a thing or two about turning heads (in more ways than one!). -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. do not archive


    Message 11


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    Time: 10:03:24 AM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    Ryan Mueller wrote: > BYD, > > Not to throw stones or anything, but one part of that setup would > concern me; the concern comes to mind especially because of a video I > watched the other day: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loq1olceSIE Interesting. I think I might buy myself some doggie augers and weld the hole shut (after grinding off the plating, of course). -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:19:47 AM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    OK, just to throw a fly in the ointment, last year (two years ago?) a friend of mine and I decided to built a Flitzer Z-3 biplane. If you're not familiar with it, suffice it to say that it's a very cool single seat bipe designed by Lynn Williams and certified by some government flight design and testing agency in the UK, the name of which escapes at the moment. Anyway, the Flitzer uses 3/8"x3/16" spruce for rib cap material and 1mm for gusset material of unspecified species (we chose birch). Wing cord on the Z-3 upper wing is 36", so it's shorter than the Piet. My question is this: if 1mm gusset material is good enough for an aerobatic Flitzer why shouldn't it be good enough for a non-aerobatic Piet? Dan Michael Perez wrote: > > Hello Robert. I am not going to tell you what to use on your plane, what > not to use or anything of that nature...unless you ask me too! I will > say this: Keep in mind...weight. That is one of the critical factors in > a small, drag prone aircraft. Any "performance" gain you can get will > pay off in the long run and being mind full of weight is easy to do and > saves some money. Lastly, also keep in mind that the wood pieces > will ultimately be covered with some type of protection for moisture and > rot as well as glue/adhesives, fabric, paint, etc. You may even keep it > in a hangar and not left outside in the elements. > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:24:35 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Dan, Don't know if you watched that clip or not, but near the beginning they note that the other thing the 'doggie augers' tend to do is have the heads snap off.... :P Ryan On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov> wrote: > > > Ryan Mueller wrote: > >> BYD, >> >> Not to throw stones or anything, but one part of that setup would concern >> me; the concern comes to mind especially because of a video I watched the >> other day: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loq1olceSIE >> > > Interesting. I think I might buy myself some doggie augers and weld the > hole shut (after grinding off the plating, of course). > > > -- > Dan Yocum > Fermilab 630.840.6509 > yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov > Fermilab. Just zeros and ones. >


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:24:35 AM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    You guys are lucky! You have all those cool, grassy strips, surrounded by farm land. Out West, we need a 5lb sledge hammer and steel concrete form stakes to get thru the rocks! Gary -------------------------- Gary A. Boothe Sales Manager CALPLY Architectural Products Division Sent from BlackBerry Wireless Device -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com <owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com> Sent: Fri Aug 28 09:51:33 2009 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: portable tie downs Ryan Mueller wrote: > BYD, > > Not to throw stones or anything, but one part of that setup would > concern me; the concern comes to mind especially because of a video I > watched the other day: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loq1olceSIE Interesting. I think I might buy myself some doggie augers and weld the hole shut (after grinding off the plating, of course). -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:48:29 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Having watched the video link posted by Ryan, I'm puzzled by something. Both the Claw and Flyties claim a pullout strength of 1200 pounds, yet in this testing they only held about 300 pounds in the Florida soil (what is the soil made of down there, cottage cheese?) and about twice that amount in some California soil (maybe everybody should carry a bucketful of california soil with them when they travel). This still only gets up to HALF of the claimed holding power. So, for these two companies to make these claims, one must assume that the claims could be substantiated. Where do you suppose did these two companies did their testing? I'm guessing that it must have involved a big chunk of granite and a hammer drill. But seriously, that's WAY off the claimed holding power. Bill C.


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:48:41 AM PST US
    From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: any real WWII aviation historians here?
    Hi John, This intrigued me... hope you don't mind that I reposted your request on the Warbird forum I follow, thsoe guys have a LOT of Warbird info on stuff like this so maybe we'll find some more info for you on this. http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=31744 According to a search on that site, "Rio Hato" only appeared about once... listing the following fates for Boeing B-17E Fortress, it might help with the search to know the unit/squadron. I've also listed the records mentioning "Panama". The first no. is the aircraft's S/N, there are all B-17Es: 2569 (40th BG, 395th BS) damaged in landing accident at Rio Hato, Panama Apr 10, 1943 2422 (6th BG, 3rd BS) crashed at David Field, Panama Jul 14, 1943 2504 used in Panama and returned to USA in 1943. 2506 used in Panama and returned to USA in 1943. -Mike Mike Whaley MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <AMsafetyC@aol.com> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:19 PM Subject: [piet] Pietenpol-List: any real WWII aviation historians here? On or about March 3, 1942 army air corps bomber squadron was stationed in Panama. During which time the illegal nose are was being painted on those ships, mostly anonymously. One of the artist was a young fellow named Nick Maltese. A graduate of the students art league of New York. Much if not all the nose art went unclaimed and unsigned as difficult as it may sound I am looking for some of is work? Any ideas or assistance on how to find it is greatly appreciated John FYI Following is a bit of the family bio Nick and Frank served in the same theater of operations in the same combat zone. Frank, who is now 87, was an instructor of aircraft trade classes at Chanute Field, Ill., and was trained for the 6th Air Force 365th Material Squadron & Heavy Bombardment Group. He arrived in Panama on March 3, 1942, after six days and nights, but after the first three of six ships made it through the canal, the last three ships were ordered to disembark immediately. These men, including Frank, instead lived isolated in a jungle outpost for 2 12 years. He spent the majority of his time guarding the Pacific entrance to the Panama Canal, and was stationed at the Rio Hato Air Base in Panama. His responsibilities included defending the air field, maintaining bombers and fighters, tracking enemy submarines and rescuing downed aircraft. He also became a rear gunner by accident, trained to use a 30-caliber water-cooled gun by a commander who couldn't locate his men when an alert signal went off. After serving overseas, Frank was sent to the McClellan Air Base in California in June, 1944, in preparation for traveling to Guam. During a two-week furlough, he went home to New Brunswick to marry his high school sweetheart and his current wife of 62 years, Florence Nicholson. (javascript:openimage('029p3_xlg.jpg',472,304)) Nick MalteseHowever, after the atomic bomb was dropped in 1945, the war ended and his service was over. The staff sergeant never returned overseas, but was instead honorably discharged in October of that year. He received the American Service, Good Conduct, New Jersey Distinguished Service and Victory medals. Nick, who is now 88, also enlisted in the Air Corps on Jan. 9, 1942. He arrived in Panama on the same day as Frank, and was also responsible for guarding the entrance to the Panama Canal on the Pacific side. He was an aide to the commanding general, Lt. General Hubert R. Harmon, on special assignments operating out of Airbrook Field in the Panama Canal Zone. He was the only enlisted person who was allowed to fly over the canal itself without being shot down. After his service of 2 12 years, he too was sent back to the McClellan base on June 8, 1944, in preparation for the invasion of Japan. However, after the war ended, he was discharged on Oct. 16, 1945. He received the American Service, Good Conduct and Victory medals.


    Message 17


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    Time: 10:51:19 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: doggie augers
    In my pre- FlyTie tie down days I found that doggie augers worked well enou gh for overnight parking at fly-in events though you have to shop around if you choose to use these because there are the el-cheapo, cheesy, thin diameter, poorly manufactured doggie augers and then there are the thicker diameter, chrome plated (well....they are nicer looking) beefier ones that don't snap off when you use some bar or thickwalled tube stock to twist them in . One danger of the doggie augers is that if you snap the head off (and I've done it) you have this spiral of steel in the ground and it is a pain in the Recine to get out. (kidding John-you know we lov e ya man) I have snapped them off trying to remove them and the last thing you want to do it leave that in the ground for some one to trip over or for the brush hog/ finish mower and airport tractor to find in a flurry of sparks when it hits the mower bl ades or punctures someone's tire. I figured I probably spend around $14 K building my plane....what's $75 to $90 to get a really GOOD tie down set that will protect all of your hard work on windy days and stormy nights when you're exposed t o the elements ? Mike C. PS-another good reason to tie down is you never know who is going to inadve rtently point some good prop blasts at your airplane when they are pulling into park or trying to taxi out. If yo u're not tied down then your airplane could bash into another airplane...and make everyone's day crappy.


    Message 18


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    Time: 10:56:33 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    And to boot Bill I thought they said that 1200 lbs was PER STAKE.....that's a bunch of BS. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 1:23 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: portable tie downs Having watched the video link posted by Ryan, I'm puzzled by something. Both the Claw and Flyties claim a pullout strength of 1200 pounds, yet in t his testing they only held about 300 pounds in the Florida soil (what is th e soil made of down there, cottage cheese?) and about twice that amount in some California soil (maybe everybody should carry a bucketful of californi a soil with them when they travel). This still only gets up to HALF of the claimed holding power. So, for these two companies to make these claims, on e must assume that the claims could be substantiated. Where do you suppose did these two companies did their testing? I'm guessing that it must have i nvolved a big chunk of granite and a hammer drill. But seriously, that's WA Y off the claimed holding power. Bill C.


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:14:15 AM PST US
    From: AMsafetyC@aol.com
    Subject: Re: any real WWII aviation historians here?
    Mike Here is a link to the full article if there are any additional clues to be had form it. _North Brunswick's men (and woman) of steel | NBS.gmnews.com | North South Brun_ (http://nbs.gmnews.com/news/2007/0222/Front_page/029.html) _North Brunswick's men (and woman) of steel | NBS.gmnews.com | North South Brun_ (http://nbs.gmnews.com/news/2007/0222/Front_page/029.html) Thanks John


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:16:35 AM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    I bet the installation instructions say something to the effect of "Do not install directly below the tie-down points on your aircraft. Install at least 5' away to maximize holding strength." Mike - good point on the cheesy doggie augers and twisted off heads. We've had enough rain around here that the ground is sufficiently soft this year, but usually when August rolls around it does get awful hard to work with... Think I'll shell out the dough and get The Claw and make sure I install them far enough away to get the maximum strength. Thanks all, Dan Bill Church wrote: > Having watched the video link posted by Ryan, I'm puzzled by something. > > Both the Claw and Flyties claim a pullout strength of 1200 pounds, yet > in this testing they only held about 300 pounds in the Florida soil > (what is the soil made of down there, cottage cheese?) and about twice > that amount in some California soil (maybe everybody should carry a > bucketful of california soil with them when they travel). This still > only gets up to HALF of the claimed holding power. So, for these two > companies to make these claims, one must assume that the claims could be > substantiated. Where do you suppose did these two companies did their > testing? I'm guessing that it must have involved a big chunk of granite > and a hammer drill. But seriously, that's WAY off the claimed holding power. -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.


    Message 21


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    Time: 11:17:18 AM PST US
    Subject: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Well Dan, I think you're sort of comparing apples and oranges. There isn't a "standard" thickness for rib gussets. It would depend on a number of factors. The Piet's chord is 5 ft, the Flitzer is 3 ft. The Piet's wingspan is 29 ft, the Flitzer's is maybe 20 ft. It may well be that the Piet's gussets could be made of 1mm plywood, provided they were sized properly. See the attached photo that I just grabbed off the web - you can see that the size of the gussets is quite large, relative to the area of the rib. You will also see that several of the ribs are almost fully skinned with plywood. Another reason why the Piet's gussets are 1/16" rather than 1mm is that the Piet was designed in 1929,and they hadn't even invented millimeters yet. Bill C.


    Message 22


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    Time: 11:17:24 AM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    They probably stuck those stakes in by the goalposts on a football field and started pulling from the 50 yard line. Sure, it's 300lb pulling *straight up*, but when you're out at an angle, the force required is going to be a lot more. Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] wrote: > And to boot Bill I thought they said that 1200 lbs was PER > STAKE..thats a bunch of BS. > > > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill > Church > *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2009 1:23 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: portable tie downs > > > > Having watched the video link posted by Ryan, I'm puzzled by something. > > > > Both the Claw and Flyties claim a pullout strength of 1200 pounds, yet > in this testing they only held about 300 pounds in the Florida soil > (what is the soil made of down there, cottage cheese?) and about twice > that amount in some California soil (maybe everybody should carry a > bucketful of california soil with them when they travel). This still > only gets up to HALF of the claimed holding power. So, for these two > companies to make these claims, one must assume that the claims could be > substantiated. Where do you suppose did these two companies did their > testing? I'm guessing that it must have involved a big chunk of granite > and a hammer drill. But seriously, that's WAY off the claimed holding power. > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.


    Message 23


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    Time: 11:22:09 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: doggie augers
    Just to add to what Mike said about investing $75 to $90 in GOOD tie-downs, I've had my Pietenpol weather some pretty intense winds from storms (including the Friday night close encounter with a tornado at Brodhead this summer) and have never had a moment's problem with "The Claw" (cheesey name, isn't it?). I always tie the stick back with the seatbelt to give some margin of gustlock to the controls, except for the rudder and the tailwheel gives it some stability. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: doggie augers In my pre- FlyTie tie down days I found that doggie augers worked well enough for overnight parking at fly-in events though you have to shop around if you choose to use these because there are the el-cheapo, cheesy, thin diameter, poorly manufactured doggie augers and then there are the thicker diameter, chrome plated (well..they are nicer looking) beefier ones that don't snap off when you use some bar or thickwalled tube stock to twist them in . One danger of the doggie augers is that if you snap the head off (and I've done it) you have this spiral of steel in the ground and it is a pain in the Recine to get out. (kidding John-you know we love ya man) I have snapped them off trying to remove them and the last thing you want to do it leave that in the ground for someone to trip over or for the brush hog/ finish mower and airport tractor to find in a flurry of sparks when it hits the mower blades or punctures someone's tire. I figured I probably spend around $14 K building my plane..what's $75 to $90 to get a really GOOD tie down set that will protect all of your hard work on windy days and stormy nights when you're exposed to the elements ? Mike C. PS-another good reason to tie down is you never know who is going to inadvertently point some good prop blasts at your airplane when they are pulling into park or trying to taxi out. If you're not tied down then your airplane could bash into another airplane.and make everyone's day crappy.


    Message 24


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    Time: 11:37:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    A rough running of the numbers shows the Flitzer having a wing area of about 112 sq ft, so at an aerobatic gross of 1000lbs the wing loading would only be a bit more than .5 lb/sq ft than the Piet (roughly); that makes them comparable enough. As Bill said, the extensive plywood skinning would make a difference. Maybe the fact that they are more compact ribs, and more 'densely packed' with uprights and diagonals than the Piet ribs.... http://www.flitzerbiplane.com/images/JeffBeach/RibJig.jpg Ryan On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote: > > Well Dan, > > I think you're sort of comparing apples and oranges. > There isn't a "standard" thickness for rib gussets. It would depend on a > number of factors. The Piet's chord is 5 ft, the Flitzer is 3 ft. The > Piet's wingspan is 29 ft, the Flitzer's is maybe 20 ft. > It may well be that the Piet's gussets could be made of 1mm plywood, > provided they were sized properly. See the attached photo that I just > grabbed off the web - you can see that the size of the gussets is quite > large, relative to the area of the rib. You will also see that several > of the ribs are almost fully skinned with plywood. > > Another reason why the Piet's gussets are 1/16" rather than 1mm is that > the Piet was designed in 1929,and they hadn't even invented millimeters > yet. > > Bill C. > >


    Message 25


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    Time: 11:54:15 AM PST US
    Subject: doggie augers
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Now, how does one tie down an airplane with this? And why are some people snapping the heads off. That's cruel. maybe I've misunderstood something...


    Message 26


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    Time: 12:24:22 PM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: Re: Okoume and fuselage gussets
    Bill Church wrote: > grabbed off the web - you can see that the size of the gussets is quite > large, relative to the area of the rib. You will also see that several > of the ribs are almost fully skinned with plywood. Those are the compression ribs, yep. > > Another reason why the Piet's gussets are 1/16" rather than 1mm is that Oh, 1/16"? I thought I saw people talking about 1/8" thick gussets. Well, that's different, then. > the Piet was designed in 1929,and they hadn't even invented millimeters > yet. Hey, now, the metric system was first used in 1791. Even you Cannuckastanis use the "little ones" on the ruler and the "big ones" on the speedometer. Considering that I can think in metric (it makes sense!) I wish us Yanks did, too. But, I digress... ;-) Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.


    Message 27


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    Time: 12:53:35 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Yes, they both DO say 1200 pounds per anchor, for a total holding power of 3600 lb. They don't even say "up to" 1200 pounds, which would give them some wiggle room. Here's the website for the Claw (claim: Holds 1200 pounds per Claw) : http://www.theclaw.com/C100.html and here's the website for Flyties (claim: 1200 pounds in most conditions): http://www.flyties.com/faq.html and here's the website for Deal Associates (they do not make any claims about pullout strength): http://www.dealassoc.com/tie-down_kit.htm ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 1:56 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: portable tie downs And to boot Bill I thought they said that 1200 lbs was PER STAKE.....that's a bunch of BS.


    Message 28


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    Time: 01:22:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Almost time to start covering this thing
    From: Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    How many yards of fabric did it take to cover your Piet? I plan on using 1.7 weight uncertified fabric, use the Stuart Systems stuff to stick it on and Latex paint. I talked to the guy that built one of the Corvair Piets at Broadhead this year(he was there with his Son and I don't remember his name), after looking at his Piet I assumed it had a really good doped paint job. It is a Latex paint job and here's how he finished it: - four cross-coats with latex primer (one coat painted vertically and allowed to dry, then one painted horizontally, dry and repeat) - four cross-coats with Satin Exterior Latex I created a test panel that I painted with Gloss Latex 5 years ago and screwed to a post outside and it still looks like new but it does have brush marks that can still be seen. I think one way to avoid brush marks is to use Satin rather than Gloss or High Gloss Latex (and it will look like an old fashion doped job but with better durability and lower cost). Anyhow if anyone has recently purchased fabic and found a place with a good price please let me know. Rick -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 29


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    Time: 01:52:36 PM PST US
    From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    As someone else mentioned, the test in the video probably was not done correctly. As per the FAA's recommendations, and just common sense, tie-downs should be placed outward from the center of the plane, away from the attach points on the airplane. The ropes should be nowhere near vertical. Yet, a vertical pull is how the test was done in the video. I have always assumed that all of the multi-point solutions rely on the tie-down rope _not_ pulling straight up, but rather at a pretty severe angle. Obviously we must fix the world. In this case, I think that we should perform a proper test at Brodhead 2010! :) -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..."


    Message 30


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    Time: 02:37:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Almost time to start covering this thing
    From: "skellytown flyer" <rhano@att.net>
    Rick I am glad to hear your intent of using Latex-I am not at all satisfied with the coverage I got from the Poly products I have had including the red I did the fuselage in with Polytone. i no doubt tried to get by using too little but I am seriously considering going over at least the rear portion of the fuselage with some Red latex if I can get them to mix a good match of color.( I have never checked to see if it's available in deep red) I managed to drip a drop of white latex in the side as I was using it to seal some wood and I thought if I wiped it within 5 minutes with a wet rag it would be gone. no such luck. I still have a small white smudge.and if it stays that good by accident I don't know why it wouldn't do just fine if I'd wash the dust off and let it dry and roll a coat or two on -on purpose.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260280#260280


    Message 31


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    Time: 02:49:07 PM PST US
    From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    Last time I went to OSH, in the space of an hour we completely snapped in half something like 8 out of 12 doggie augers (or as some would call them, a "screw the pooch") in the rock-hard, packed, drought-ridden, cement-like Oshkosh soil trying to get some tent anchors to secure our display tent for the week. We got desperate and tried The Claw... it worked absolutely beautifully. Fortunately we sold them, so had a couple extra sets at our disposal (and even better, the yellow color matched our airplane perfectly). Not saying that other ideas won't work, and I've seen a couple of good (and much less expensive) homebuilt versions of the Claw's basic concept, but it's really hard to beat a design that uses what is essentially a large, straight nail for getting it installed on very hard soil, just as AvWeb said. Here in Florida, there's not much problem with that, here the issue is holding well enough to stay in at all. Maybe if you mounted a strengthened doggie auger through the middle of a bigger Claw? Mike Whaley MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:00 AM Subject: [piet] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: portable tie downs BYD, Not to throw stones or anything, but one part of that setup would concern me; the concern comes to mind especially because of a video I watched the other day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loq1olceSIE Avweb compares The Claw (it's gonna getcha!), Flyties, a setup from Deal Associates, and a commonly available 'doggie auger'. I wish they would have done their test in something besides Florida soil, but I digress. In the video the head of the 'doggie auger' deformed significantly. Even if the brass that the hook you have is made out of could somehow equal the strength of the cheap ferrous metal that the 'doggie auger' was made out of, it is still significantly smaller. If the 'doggie auger' deforms that much, imagine what the brass hook would do. If your setup works for you then pay no mind to me; just wanted to share that observation and thought on the matter. As an aside, a comment that they made towards the end of the video regarding the Flyties caught my attention. They mentioned that when they pulled the Flyties out at an angle that they performed 'better'. Of course, they don't quantify that remark, but I thought it was worth making note. How do you install your Flyties when you use them, Mike? Ryan On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:45 PM, BYD <byd@att.net> wrote: > > This may not be the best, but Ill include my favorite. Its simply three, > one foot pieces of chain each cut into three, four inch pieces. These are > joined by a hefty brass hook with a ring to tie to. While youre in the > hardware store buying the chain (theyll cut it for you) purchase nine of > the largest nails they have (check to assure theyll pass through the > links). To get fancy, pick up a fence hammer which also works like pliers > to extract the nails. Add three pieces of good rope (also from the hardware > store) and place it all in a bag. See enclosed. Obviously, I spend too > much time in the hardware store! >


    Message 32


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    Time: 03:16:10 PM PST US
    From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Re: ASSCO,inc
    I too, have a Lowrance Airmap 2000 and cannot figure how to download the Je ppesen maps. Forget trying to phone them, as I have waited 2 hours to get s omeone to amswer. I have sent an Email about it, and am still waiting to he ar back. They are so busy trying to protect their software, no one can buy them. Pretty stupid, if you ask me. Yet they claim their sales have increas ed by 56%. You would think they could afford to pay someone to answer their phones! Ross Alexander=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0AFrom: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics .com=0ASent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:50:55 AM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-L ist: Re: ASSCO,inc=0A=0ASteve, and a bit applicable to John,=0A=0AIt seems John, unfortunately, is SOL because neither Lowrance or the LEI people supp ort the Airmap 300 (I'm not telling him anything he doesn't already know). Since the aviation GPS world is generally not populated by young teenagers interested in older hardware, no one has hacked the 300 to accept 500 updat es.=0A=0ASteve, do you have the 300 or a different model?=0A=0AJohn....I wo uld send you a batch of homemade cream puffs(!) to help alleviate your frus trations about the Lowrance, but I don't know how to make those. You may ho wever get yourself on the list for the best chocolate chip cookies ever.... independently confirmed by the Medical Imaging department at Children's Mem orial Hospital.=0A=0AHave a good night all,=0A=0ARyan=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Aug 2 7, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com> wrote:=0A=0AI'd guess he is having the same problem I am. =0A>I am able to download and pa y for the $35 update from the page you linked to =0A>just fine. Doing that every couple of years would be fine with me. =0A>But, the card reader tha t came with the lowrance unit is proprietary and it no =0A>longer works, so I have no way to load the file to my flash card. =0A>Complicating things further, the flash readers have multiple drivers for =0A>different readers, and I don't know which one to use because the sticker =0A>fell off my read er long ago. Of course, the web site still takes my =0A>money. It just se ems that Lowrance could've come up with a better way to =0A>update the file s and they would've had a few more happy customers.=0A> =0A>Are we allowed to talk about GPS and flash =0A>memory on the Pietenpol forum? Seems almos =============0A=0A=0A ________________________ __________________________________________=0ALooking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! =0A=0Ahttp://www.flickr.com/gift/


    Message 33


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    Time: 03:54:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: nicopress sleeve sizes
    From: joe motis <joemotis@gmail.com>
    Thanks Mike, Joe Motis Do not archive On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: > Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> > > Hi Mike, > > What is the difference in the crimpers(Nicopress) I thought an oval m is > the same either way, telephone or aircraft. > Do you know or does any one else? I have access to telephone one with 4 > bays on it labeled G,C,M,P > Thanks > > Joe Motis > > > Joe--you're' EXACTLY right about the telephone nico tools vs. a/c ones-- > they are THE SAME ! In fact mine was made > right here in Cleveland (tho I ordered it thru Wicks) and has cast in it > "Cleveland Telegraph Company" or similar. I guess > what I meant is that some of the ones you see on ebay and the like only > have one 'bay' or spot or maybe two bays for > two different size nicopress sleeves but the good ones have FOUR slots/bays > for the various sizes of nicopress ovals out there > and that's probably the best bet for an aircraft builder since it covers > the gamut of various cable sizes you might need to work on. > > Mike C. > >


    Message 34


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    Time: 08:49:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Engine question
    From: Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    I will be flying out of a 6900 ft. airport in Colorado so I knew I needed more than a 65 in my Piet. I agonized for a year whether to buy a used O-200 or build a Corvair for about $6000. I when the Corvair route and since I haven't flow yet I can't really say if I made a good decision. If you think that you will want to sell your Piet sometime after completing it you are probably better off with an aircraft engine. Talked to the people at Wentworth at Oshkosh who are a big used aircraft parts supplier about the current costs of used O-200s. They said that the bad economy has driven the prices up a bunch due to increased demand. Rick On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 4:38 PM, <brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com> wrote: > Group, > > I have been debating on the type of engine for my Piet. I need something > with horses since my field elevation here in UT is 4700ft. My neighborhas been over to visit and see my project as well as my T-craft project. > He told me he has an old 0-235 on an airboat that he would sell me for > $1200. It runs but leaks oil like crazy and needs new mags and who knows > what else. It has a carb, not sure which type and the junker boat. I > could turn and sell the boat for $600 and have a certified engine for $600. > My fear is buying an old engine with no logs and an unknown history and > having to pay big money to have it gone through to be able to put it on > my Piet. Any suggestions from experienced flers would be appreciated. > > Brian > > SLC, UT > > *******Brian Jardine* > *******L-3 Communications****** > ********Operations Project Engineer* > 640 North 2200 West > P.O.Box 16850 > Salt Lake City, UT 84116 > > L [image: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap)] > > 801-594-3482 > > *****brian.e.jardine@L-3com.com* > > ****** > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"


    Message 35


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    Time: 09:04:42 PM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: portable tie downs
    Just krazy-glue the rope to the rock. Clif > > You guys are lucky! You have all those cool, grassy strips, surrounded > by farm land. > > Out West, we need a 5lb sledge hammer and steel concrete form stakes to > get thru the rocks! > > Gary




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