---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/31/09: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute (Jack Phillips) 2. 06:13 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Gary Boothe) 3. 06:14 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Jack Phillips) 4. 07:25 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Davis Roger) 5. 07:51 AM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 6. 07:51 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Bill Church) 7. 08:04 AM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios po (K5YAC) 8. 08:09 AM - Jim Markle (tbyh@aol.com) 9. 08:11 AM - John R. fitting into a Piet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 10. 08:17 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Gary Boothe) 11. 08:42 AM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute (Bill Church) 12. 11:24 AM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute (Jim Markle) 13. 12:19 PM - 0235 engine report (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 14. 12:19 PM - Re: Turnbuckles (Richard Schreiber) 15. 12:36 PM - Re: Turnbuckles (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 16. 01:54 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute (Tim Fulmer) 17. 01:54 PM - Re: Turnbuckles (Richard Schreiber) 18. 01:56 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post (Bill Princell) 19. 01:56 PM - Re: 0235 engine report (Jack Phillips) 20. 02:02 PM - Re: 0235 engine report (Davis Roger) 21. 02:20 PM - Re: 0235 engine report (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 22. 02:26 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post (John Hofmann) 23. 02:26 PM - Re: Almost time to start covering this thing (Ben Charvet) 24. 02:26 PM - Re: 0235 engine report (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 25. 02:49 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serio... (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 26. 02:49 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post (Jack Phillips) 27. 03:15 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute (Mark Roberts) 28. 03:16 PM - Re: Almost time to start covering this thing (Gary Boothe) 29. 03:16 PM - Re: 0235 engine report (Gary Boothe) 30. 03:16 PM - Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post (Gary Boothe) 31. 03:23 PM - Lee Bottom Flyin (Richard Schreiber) 32. 03:23 PM - Re: Almost time to start covering this thing (Jim Markle) 33. 06:26 PM - Re: Almost time to start covering this thing (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 34. 07:18 PM - Lee Bottom (Richard Schreiber) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:39 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute Yep, All the kidding (how did this all get started?) has been fun, but Jim is one of the guys on the list who has persevered for some time building his Pietenpol, making good, worthwhile posts to the list, and is building a first class Pietenpol. I'm proud to call him my friend. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute I have only met Jim once and we only spent about 30-45 minutes together over a beer. He paid for the round. We talked about Pietenpols and that was all that mattered. I like to tell people that you can judge how sincere they are about being your friend if you envision the scenario where you have a flat tire and are pulled off the busy highway at night, in the rain, in slow traffic. People are in their cars, they can clearly see that it's you pulled over with a flat in the rain, and you can't see past their wipers or the rain on their windshields, so you don't know who is who if they duck their heads and keep pushing on towards home. I would pull over and give Jim a hand and I'll bet most of you would, too. What about his banker, or his accountant, or his barber, neighbor, or even pastor? I've seen it happen in real life. A high school coach, pulled over with a flat at night, was swamped by dozens of his former students (all of them now adults) as they recognized him in trouble and stopped to help. He didn't even have to get his hands dirty. I don't think Jim would have to, either. He's a Pietenpol kind of guy. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:08 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles The small ones.they really don't have to have very much tension. In fact, at Brodhead, I saw both loose and tight and all seemed to work just fine. Here's mine: Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (14 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Davis Roger Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 8:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Been lurking in the shadows for a few years watching all the posts. Working Jenny style landing gear. What size turnbuckles did you guys use? I can't make out what the drawing on page 14 of the manual says. Thanks. Roger & Austin Davis ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:37 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Hi Roger, I used the AN130-16S turnbuckle assemblies for the landing gear, the drag and anti-drag wires, and the control cables. I used the smaller AN130-8S turnbuckles for the tail bracing wires. I have no idea what the manual says - for some reason I never got a maual when I bought my plans from Don Pietenpol back in 1995. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Davis Roger Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Been lurking in the shadows for a few years watching all the posts. Working Jenny style landing gear. What size turnbuckles did you guys use? I can't make out what the drawing on page 14 of the manual says. Thanks. Roger & Austin Davis ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles From: Davis Roger Thanks guys, We just picked up our rims from a guy on my route. Would like to get everything braced up and fitted on the gear so the boy can push me around the yard! Seriously though would like to get it off of the saw horse s so it looks like we have made some progress. Thanks for the help. On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Jack Phillips wrot e: > Hi Roger, > > > I used the AN130-16S turnbuckle assemblies for the landing gear, the drag > and anti-drag wires, and the control cables. I used the smaller AN130-8S > turnbuckles for the tail bracing wires. > > > I have no idea what the manual says ' for some reason I never got a mau al > when I bought my plans from Don Pietenpol back in 1995. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Raleigh, NC > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Davis Roger > *Sent:* Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:31 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles > > > Been lurking in the shadows for a few years watching all the posts. Worki ng > Jenny style landing gear. > What size turnbuckles did you guys use? I can't make out what the drawing > on page 14 of the manual says. > Thanks. > > Roger & Austin Davis > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > =========== w.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =========== ========= > = com/contribution =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:44 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute Sad to say, I believe I may be or I am the culprit. Following either my long story about fitting into or trying on Jim's Piet or by the cookie comments I read. The more I think about it I must have been the one. Its a shame I didn't let it die its natural death but continued with a bad joke at the expense of a friend. I will try to avoid the unnecessary jokes even though its against my nature and it is certainly not intended to be at the expense of another. Alienating a friend is just not worth it! John ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles From: "Bill Church" Regarding turnbuckles, the plans describe the turnbuckles using the terminology of the day (1929 - 1934), and are called up as 325SF or 326SF. In all of my searches on the internet, I have not been able to find any reference material that either describes what these turnbuckles are (with dimensions), or cross-references the old names to the more modern terminology. Anybody out there know of any reference material that would help to decipher what's on the plans? Of course, common sense would dictate that larger turnbuckles should be used with larger cables, and smaller with smaller - just wondered if anyone had any info to share. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios po From: "K5YAC" I am also proud to call Jim a friend and neighbor. I haven't been around here very long, but he was one of the first to introduce himself and invite me over for a look at this strange old wooden airplane. We didn't actually meet until Brodhead due to scheduling conflicts, but I'm sure glad we finally did. He was none of the dirty rotten things that Recine described him to be... although I haven't seen my dial calipers since he was last at the hanger. LOL! jk John... and Jim. Hail to the Markle! HARUMPH! -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260618#260618 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:25 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jim Markle From: tbyh@aol.com Jim Markle is a wonderful fellow. Although we had corresponded by e-mail on occasion over the past couple of years, I met him in person for the first time at this year's Brodhead fly-in. His word is his handshake and vice versa -- a characteristic of all those who enjoy Pietenpol airplanes! Fred Beseler La Crosse, WI ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:28 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: John R. fitting into a Piet The one I liked John that you posted a while back before we got to meet you and joke with you at Brodhead was the one about you greasing yourself up with (what was it now anyway ?) cooking oil or something to slip into a regular sized Pietenpol ? Then you offered for a few of us to meet you in Rockford for dinner at the White Castle (okay-that part I made up-I forget what restaurant you mentioned in Rockford) before Brodhead and you would do ever ything except get us there, buy our meals, and drive us home-we offlist all got a kick out of that one and said "man-I've got to meet this guy to see if he's off his rocker or if he's just a fun guy----turns out it was the later and we're all the better for it. I'll never forget the first time we met you at Brodhead. John Hofmann and I were walking up to you and your partner sitting by the pavilion and John said to me "watch this". Knowing you liked lines from the movie the Great Waldo Pepper John didn't even introduce himself (course he had his name tag on though) but started right in at John R. with "you're a good looser, and I like good loosers.....but then again you've probably had lotsa practice !" John burst out laughing before John could even get halfway thru the line. John took it all in good fun and then we introduced ourselves formally. Fun stuff .. Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:08 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Bill, I have some old aircraft maintenance books (pre 1950) and took a quick look to see what they said about turnbuckles. Unfortunately, I did not find anything to answer you question, but I did see a chapter on splicing eyes into cables!! HOLY COW, we have it easy! My fingers started bleeding just reading it. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:51 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Regarding turnbuckles, the plans describe the turnbuckles using the terminology of the day (1929 - 1934), and are called up as 325SF or 326SF. In all of my searches on the internet, I have not been able to find any reference material that either describes what these turnbuckles are (with dimensions), or cross-references the old names to the more modern terminology. Anybody out there know of any reference material that would help to decipher what's on the plans? Of course, common sense would dictate that larger turnbuckles should be used with larger cables, and smaller with smaller - just wondered if anyone had any info to share. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute From: "Bill Church" Oh crap, John. Now you've just reminded me about that post of yours where you described trying to fit into Jim's fuselage. Now, my mind is filled with visions of male nudity and grease. I think I may need to call a therapist. do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:47 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute Sad to say, I believe I may be or I am the culprit. Following either my long story about fitting into or trying on Jim's Piet or by the cookie comments I read. The more I think about it I must have been the one. Its a shame I didn't let it die its natural death but continued with a bad joke at the expense of a friend. I will try to avoid the unnecessary jokes even though its against my nature and it is certainly not intended to be at the expense of another. Alienating a friend is just not worth it! John ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:17 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute John! There are NO culprits in this group and no harm has been done! It will take a LOT more than that to run me off.... I hope we can still keep goofing with each other (what else would Cuy have to talk about??? oops, there I go again)...I'm not stopping. Folks in my part of the country ONLY mess with the ones they love. Everyone else gets left alone. I say....bring it on! I would just respectfully ask that we keep it more off list and not so much in this public forum... jm in beautiful Denver... -----Original Message----- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Aug 31, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute Sad to say, I believe I may be or I am the culprit. Following either my long story about fitting into or trying on Jim's Piet or by the cookie comments I read. The more I think about it I must have been the one. Its a shame I didn't let it die its natural death but continued with a bad joke at the expense of a friend. I will try to avoid the unnecessary jokes even though its against my nature and it is certainly not intended to be at the expense of another. Alienating a friend is just not worth it! John ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:20 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report News good and not so good! The guy from the repair/inspection shop called this morning on my Lycoming 0235 engine that nosed over and may or may not had a direct prop strike. Engine case Zyglowed particle and magna fluxed Found to be good Crank shaft, dowel and gear magna fluxed and found to be good Valve train Camshaft cannot be reground so that's junk tappets may be resurfaced if put against a new cam not if put against an reground or serviceable cam A replacement cam is hard to find. Lycoming cams were being built by Lycoming their shop shut down and cams are being produced by crane cams who just closed its doors. Presently all aviation cams for Lycoming are in short supply as rare and all being back ordered. The industry is awaiting FAA approval of another cam manufacturer. I made several contact for quotes today with few replies that all indicated none a re available. Lycoming additionally has attempted to uy back existing new stock of tappets also. cylinders 3 out of 4 heads showing spider cracks around sparkplug holes not good but repairable 1 out of 4 barrel needs work but can be recoated and brought into spec Cylinders are being sent out to Indiana tomorrow for welding and servicing. So far the bills are mounting up but still better than 800.00 per cylinder. This engine was according to logs, well maintained and services according to the logs. the cam and tappets corroded due to internal moisture after the crash so it wasn't abused or mounted on another vehicle it was neglected during its down time.Some thing to be considered when purchasing a used engine. More info as it becomes available. If anyone has a line on 0235C1B parts I am interested. John ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:20 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Bill: I have spent a considerable amount of time on the net and other sources looking for a cross reference too, without any luck. It was more out of curiosity than anything else. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Sent: 8/31/2009 9:54:27 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Regarding turnbuckles, the plans describe the turnbuckles using the terminology of the day (1929 - 1934), and are called up as 325SF or 326SF. In all of my searches on the internet, I have not been able to find any reference material that either describes what these turnbuckles are (with dimensions), or cross-references the old names to the more modern terminology. Anybody out there know of any reference material that would help to decipher what's on the plans? Of course, common sense would dictate that larger turnbuckles should be used with larger cables, and smaller with smaller - just wondered if anyone had any info to share. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:15 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles I took the simple route, I contacted B&B for turnbuckles, he asked what size cable I was planning on I told him 3/32 he said okay I got 25 of them. I said send me 24 plus ends He processed the order I received the 24 that I ordered along with the bill and Rick got one! Works for me John ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:18 PM PST US From: "Tim Fulmer" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute I can only speak for one member of the "Public Forum", but I find the banter very entertaining; it fills in the lulls between the dissemination of useful information. Better still, we all get a good feel for who to watch out for when we finally get to Brodhead.... Just one man's opinion. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute John! There are NO culprits in this group and no harm has been done! It will take a LOT more than that to run me off.... I hope we can still keep goofing with each other (what else would Cuy have to talk about??? oops, there I go again)...I'm not stopping. Folks in my part of the country ONLY mess with the ones they love. Everyone else gets left alone. I say....bring it on! I would just respectfully ask that we keep it more off list and not so much in this public forum... jm in beautiful Denver... -----Original Message----- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Aug 31, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute Sad to say, I believe I may be or I am the culprit. Following either my long story about fitting into or trying on Jim's Piet or by the cookie comments I read. The more I think about it I must have been the one. Its a shame I didn't let it die its natural death but continued with a bad joke at the expense of a friend. I will try to avoid the unnecessary jokes even though its against my nature and it is certainly not intended to be at the expense of another. Alienating a friend is just not worth it! John ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:38 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles It sure didn't work for me!! Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 8/31/2009 2:39:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles I took the simple route, I contacted B&B for turnbuckles, he asked what size cable I was planning on I told him 3/32 he said okay I got 25 of them. I said send me 24 plus ends He processed the order I received the 24 that I ordered along with the bill and Rick got one! Works for me John ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post From: Bill Princell About Jim Markle: About ninety-nine percent of the people I've met in experimental aviation and especially the Pietenpol group, are all top notch people. Without exception, Jim Markle's name is at the top of my list of the good airplane people I've met. *Jim is the best! * Bill Princell - > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:46 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report John, Have you tried Wentworth or other aircraft salvage places? You might be able to get a good used cam from them. Jack Phillips _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:50 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report News good and not so good! The guy from the repair/inspection shop called this morning on my Lycoming 0235 engine that nosed over and may or may not had a direct prop strike. Engine case Zyglowed particle and magna fluxed Found to be good Crank shaft, dowel and gear magna fluxed and found to be good Valve train Camshaft cannot be reground so that's junk tappets may be resurfaced if put against a new cam not if put against an reground or serviceable cam A replacement cam is hard to find. Lycoming cams were being built by Lycoming their shop shut down and cams are being produced by crane cams who just closed its doors. Presently all aviation cams for Lycoming are in short supply as rare and all being back ordered. The industry is awaiting FAA approval of another cam manufacturer. I made several contact for quotes today with few replies that all indicated none are available. Lycoming additionally has attempted to uy back existing new stock of tappets also. cylinders 3 out of 4 heads showing spider cracks around sparkplug holes not good but repairable 1 out of 4 barrel needs work but can be recoated and brought into spec Cylinders are being sent out to Indiana tomorrow for welding and servicing. So far the bills are mounting up but still better than 800.00 per cylinder. This engine was according to logs, well maintained and services according to the logs. the cam and tappets corroded due to internal moisture after the crash so it wasn't abused or mounted on another vehicle it was neglected during its down time.Some thing to be considered when purchasing a used engine. More info as it becomes available. If anyone has a line on 0235C1B parts I am interested. John _____ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report From: Davis Roger Their is a small company in Richland, Ia that deals in aircraft engines. I ran that UPS route several times. Not sure exactky what all they have or if they would even have anything that you could use, but here is their info. Roger Hanco Inc. 30847 323rd Ave. Richland, Iowa 52585 319-456-6028 On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:50 PM, wrote: > News good and not so good! > > The guy from the repair/inspection shop called this morning on my Lycoming > 0235 engine that nosed over and may or may not had a direct prop strike. > > Engine case Zyglowed particle and magna fluxed Found to be good > Crank shaft, dowel and gear magna fluxed and found to be good > > Valve train > > Camshaft cannot be reground so that's junk > tappets may be resurfaced if put against a new cam not if put against an > reground or serviceable cam > A replacement cam is hard to find. > > Lycoming cams were being built by Lycoming their shop shut down and cams > are being produced by crane cams who just closed its doors. Presently all > aviation cams for Lycoming are in short supply as rare and all being back > ordered. > > The industry is awaiting FAA approval of another cam manufacturer. I made > several contact for quotes today with few replies that all indicated none > are available. Lycoming additionally has attempted to uy back existing new > stock of tappets also. > > > cylinders > > 3 out of 4 heads showing spider cracks around sparkplug holes not good but > repairable > 1 out of 4 barrel needs work but can be recoated and brought into spec > > Cylinders are being sent out to Indiana tomorrow for welding and servicing. > > So far the bills are mounting up but still better than 800.00 per cylinder. > > This engine was according to logs, well maintained and services according > to the logs. the cam and tappets corroded due to internal moisture after the > crash so it wasn't abused or mounted on another vehicle it was neglected > during its down time.Some thing to be considered when purchasing a used > engine. > > More info as it becomes available. > > If anyone has a line on 0235C1B parts I am interested. > > John > > > ------------------------------ > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:27 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report Jack, Thanks. I was under the impression form their web site that they only did airframe stuff but I will check other salvage yards. I sent out a ton of e mail request for quotes today so it will be interesting to find what the results look like. Right now things are not looking that good but its only been a few hours of search. That's not to say if anyone has a line on something or runs upon a hanger mate or a guy in passing on a street corner with a cam in his pocket, I am all ears. Hey fella is that a cam in your pock or you're just happy to ? John ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:33 PM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post He'g got a stupendous character! The world agree on that. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Bill Princell wrote: > About Jim Markle: > > About ninety-nine percent of the people I've met in experimental > aviation and especially the Pietenpol group, are all top notch > people. Without exception, Jim Markle's name is at the top of my > list of the good airplane people I've met. Jim is the best! > > Bill Princell - > > ========== > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:35 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Almost time to start covering this thing I bought my fabric from Wicks. You have to shop carefully for the 1.7 oz stuff because you need it wide enough to fit the span of the wing, and some is too narrow. I bought 37 yards at $5.25 a yard, Wicks part #SF104ANON. I have some fabric left over, but not an excessive amount. I was able to do the whole thing with one gallon of Stewart Ecobond, and I got that from aircraft spruce. I bought a nice rib stitch needle for around $12, and used that on my tail surfaces, then lost it before I needed it for the wings. I was able to make one out of a 1 foot piece of 1/8 inch brass rod that I bought at Ace Hardware. In case you are interested, I got my surface tapes from ACS 1 roll of 1 inch, used that on the turtle deck stringers 4 rolls of 2 inch 1 roll of 3 inch 1 roll of 4 inch You need at least 30 inspection rings, at least I used that many, but only plan to open up some of the holes. I ordered 60 drain grommets, but have some left over. To answer the other question about paint. I used Sherwin Williams on my wing and tail surfaces. I bought a primer-gray tint in flat for the base coats, then sprayed on the color on the stabilizer and one wing, then had to buy another gallon, which I couldn't get to spray for love of money. I was using a regular HVLP gun. I ended up brushing the last coat of color on, using a Buff colored gloss that cost about $40/gallon. It left brush strokes, not quite as nice as the ones on Gary Bell's Piet that you are probably referring to from Brodhead (Blue and Orange?) For the Fuselage, I went to an automotive paint store and bought a quart of a red that I picked from their color charts, with the hardener, then went to Home Depot and had them mix a gallon of Behr gloss latex to match, and they did a good job. This stuff sprayed on pretty nice. One problem you will probably find with the Stewart glue and Latex paint, is you get little whiskers sticking up on the edges of your surface tapes that really need to be lightly sanded down between coats. I'm accustomed to painting cars where you can lay 3 or 4 coats down in an afternoon. With the latex it is best to wait for each coat to dry and hit it lightly with sandpaper between coats. The lightweight fabric I used has an ID stamp every few feet along one edge that is helpful to show you that you have enough paint on the keep out the UV. I just put on enough of the base coat until you couldn't see it anymore. In all I used 1-1/2 gallons of the Gray flat Base, Almost 2 gallons of the Buff gloss paint on the wings and Stabilizer, and nearly the full gallon of red on the fuselage and rudder. I live way down in Florida, so you aren't likely to see me in Brodhead any time soon, but if I can get this thing finished, maybe I'll make it to Sun-n-Fun next spring! Ben Charvet Rick Holland wrote: > How many yards of fabric did it take to cover your Piet? I plan on > using 1.7 weight uncertified fabric, use the Stuart Systems stuff to > stick it on and Latex paint. I talked to the guy that built one of the > Corvair Piets at Broadhead this year(he was there with his Son and I > don't remember his name), after looking at his Piet I assumed it had a > really good doped paint job. It is a Latex paint job and here's how he > finished it: > > - four cross-coats with latex primer (one coat painted vertically and > allowed to dry, then one painted horizontally, dry and repeat) > - four cross-coats with Satin Exterior Latex > > I created a test panel that I painted with Gloss Latex 5 years ago and > screwed to a post outside and it still looks like new but it does have > brush marks that can still be seen. I think one way to avoid brush > marks is to use Satin rather than Gloss or High Gloss Latex (and it > will look like an old fashion doped job but with better durability and > lower cost). > > Anyhow if anyone has recently purchased fabic and found a place with a > good price please let me know. > > Rick > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:35 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report Thanks for the direction to Henco, just got off the phone with the woman there and what a delight to chat with, the guy in the know in on the road but she promises he will call me back. Even if it goes nowhere , what a pleasure to talk to! Thanks John ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:42 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serio... I am trying to cut down, but all this nice talk about Jim is threatening my personal growth and well being. John Do not archive I already have a reputation and a bad paper trail, I just don't want to make matters worse ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:42 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post We're all snowflakes.How about a group hug? _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post He'g got a stupendous character! The world agree on that. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Bill Princell wrote: About Jim Markle: About ninety-nine percent of the people I've met in experimental aviation and especially the Pietenpol group, are all top notch people. Without exception, Jim Markle's name is at the top of my list of the good airplane people I've met. Jim is the best! Bill Princell - ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute From: Mark Roberts I agree, as I too have no life but must enjoy the banter through the lives of those that can actually work on their projects at this time... I will hopefully meet a few of you in Lincoln this month at the West Coast Piet Jaw fest... Mark On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Tim Fulmer wrote: > > I can only speak for one member of the "Public Forum", but I find the > banter > very entertaining; it fills in the lulls between the dissemination of > useful > information. Better still, we all get a good feel for who to watch out for > when we finally get to Brodhead.... Just one man's opinion. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:15 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute > > jim_markle@mindspring.com> > > John! There are NO culprits in this group and no harm has been done! It > will take a LOT more than that to run me off.... > > I hope we can still keep goofing with each other (what else would Cuy have > to talk about??? oops, there I go again)...I'm not stopping. Folks in my > part of the country ONLY mess with the ones they love. Everyone else gets > left alone. > > I say....bring it on! > > I would just respectfully ask that we keep it more off list and not so much > in this public forum... > > jm in beautiful Denver... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AMsafetyC@aol.com > > Sent: Aug 31, 2009 8:47 AM > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle- just for a minute > > > Sad to say, I believe I may be or I am the culprit. Following either > my long story about fitting into or trying on Jim's Piet or > by the cookie comments I read. The more I think about it I must have > been the one. Its a shame I didn't let it die its natural death but > continued > with a bad joke at the expense of a friend. > > I will try to avoid the unnecessary jokes even though its against my nature > and it is certainly not intended to be at the expense of another. > Alienating a friend is just not worth it! > > John > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:56 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Almost time to start covering this thing Nice report, Ben. Thanks! Don't be bashful about sending pics... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Almost time to start covering this thing I bought my fabric from Wicks. You have to shop carefully for the 1.7 oz stuff because you need it wide enough to fit the span of the wing, and some is too narrow. I bought 37 yards at $5.25 a yard, Wicks part #SF104ANON. I have some fabric left over, but not an excessive amount. I was able to do the whole thing with one gallon of Stewart Ecobond, and I got that from aircraft spruce. I bought a nice rib stitch needle for around $12, and used that on my tail surfaces, then lost it before I needed it for the wings. I was able to make one out of a 1 foot piece of 1/8 inch brass rod that I bought at Ace Hardware. In case you are interested, I got my surface tapes from ACS 1 roll of 1 inch, used that on the turtle deck stringers 4 rolls of 2 inch 1 roll of 3 inch 1 roll of 4 inch You need at least 30 inspection rings, at least I used that many, but only plan to open up some of the holes. I ordered 60 drain grommets, but have some left over. To answer the other question about paint. I used Sherwin Williams on my wing and tail surfaces. I bought a primer-gray tint in flat for the base coats, then sprayed on the color on the stabilizer and one wing, then had to buy another gallon, which I couldn't get to spray for love of money. I was using a regular HVLP gun. I ended up brushing the last coat of color on, using a Buff colored gloss that cost about $40/gallon. It left brush strokes, not quite as nice as the ones on Gary Bell's Piet that you are probably referring to from Brodhead (Blue and Orange?) For the Fuselage, I went to an automotive paint store and bought a quart of a red that I picked from their color charts, with the hardener, then went to Home Depot and had them mix a gallon of Behr gloss latex to match, and they did a good job. This stuff sprayed on pretty nice. One problem you will probably find with the Stewart glue and Latex paint, is you get little whiskers sticking up on the edges of your surface tapes that really need to be lightly sanded down between coats. I'm accustomed to painting cars where you can lay 3 or 4 coats down in an afternoon. With the latex it is best to wait for each coat to dry and hit it lightly with sandpaper between coats. The lightweight fabric I used has an ID stamp every few feet along one edge that is helpful to show you that you have enough paint on the keep out the UV. I just put on enough of the base coat until you couldn't see it anymore. In all I used 1-1/2 gallons of the Gray flat Base, Almost 2 gallons of the Buff gloss paint on the wings and Stabilizer, and nearly the full gallon of red on the fuselage and rudder. I live way down in Florida, so you aren't likely to see me in Brodhead any time soon, but if I can get this thing finished, maybe I'll make it to Sun-n-Fun next spring! Ben Charvet Rick Holland wrote: > How many yards of fabric did it take to cover your Piet? I plan on > using 1.7 weight uncertified fabric, use the Stuart Systems stuff to > stick it on and Latex paint. I talked to the guy that built one of the > Corvair Piets at Broadhead this year(he was there with his Son and I > don't remember his name), after looking at his Piet I assumed it had a > really good doped paint job. It is a Latex paint job and here's how he > finished it: > > - four cross-coats with latex primer (one coat painted vertically and > allowed to dry, then one painted horizontally, dry and repeat) > - four cross-coats with Satin Exterior Latex > > I created a test panel that I painted with Gloss Latex 5 years ago and > screwed to a post outside and it still looks like new but it does have > brush marks that can still be seen. I think one way to avoid brush > marks is to use Satin rather than Gloss or High Gloss Latex (and it > will look like an old fashion doped job but with better durability and > lower cost). > > Anyhow if anyone has recently purchased fabic and found a place with a > good price please let me know. > > Rick > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:57 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report It's a worthy goal, John.we're all pulling for you! With that much hp you'll be flying a rocket sled!....H'mmm...Rocket Man...what king of logo would that make? If you Google "Rocket Man" just don't play the William Shatner version..you've been duly warned. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 0235 engine report Thanks for the direction to Henco, just got off the phone with the woman there and what a delight to chat with, the guy in the know in on the road but she promises he will call me back. Even if it goes nowhere , what a pleasure to talk to! Thanks John _____ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:57 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post I'M GONNA PUKE! Can't we go back to the way it was...? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 2:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post We're all snowflakes.How about a group hug? _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol friend Jim Markle -just for a minute, a serios post He'g got a stupendous character! The world agree on that. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Aug 31, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Bill Princell wrote: About Jim Markle: About ninety-nine percent of the people I've met in experimental aviation and especially the Pietenpol group, are all top notch people. Without exception, Jim Markle's name is at the top of my list of the good airplane people I've met. Jim is the best! Bill Princell - ========== st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:05 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lee Bottom Flyin I was wondering who from the list was planning on attending the "Wood, Fabric and Tailwheels" flyin at Lee Bottom Indiana the end of September. I know that Mike Cuy is going and my Wife and I are also going, but is there any one else? For those that don't know about the flyin it is a very friendly, grassroots event the last weekend in September. They typically get 400 to 450 planes in for the weekend. The airport is a 4000 foot grass strip along the Ohio river, just west of Madison, Indiana. Next to Brodhead this is probably my most favorite flyin of the year. Here is a link to the flyin http://www.leebottom.com/event_schedule.htm If you have not been to the flyin before, its really a great time. Lots of wood and fabric taildraggers and great people. Rich and Ginger Davidson, who own the airport and put the flyin on are also great people. The flyin is listed as a one day event ...Saturday, September 26, 2009, but many come in on Friday and leave on Sunday. If you don't want to camp, transportation to local hotels is provided. Food will be provided from Friday evening through the weekend. Rick Schreiber ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:07 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Almost time to start covering this thing Well, that just answered about 5 questions I've been wrestling with for weeks. And a couple I would have had (the whiskers) coming up. thanks Ben! -----Original Message----- >From: Ben Charvet >Sent: Aug 31, 2009 3:16 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Almost time to start covering this thing > > >I bought my fabric from Wicks. You have to shop carefully for the 1.7 >oz stuff because you need it wide enough to fit the span of the wing, >and some is too narrow. I bought 37 yards at $5.25 a yard, Wicks part >#SF104ANON. I have some fabric left over, but not an excessive amount. >I was able to do the whole thing with one gallon of Stewart Ecobond, and >I got that from aircraft spruce. I bought a nice rib stitch needle for >around $12, and used that on my tail surfaces, then lost it before I >needed it for the wings. I was able to make one out of a 1 foot piece >of 1/8 inch brass rod that I bought at Ace Hardware. > >In case you are interested, I got my surface tapes from ACS > >1 roll of 1 inch, used that on the turtle deck stringers >4 rolls of 2 inch >1 roll of 3 inch >1 roll of 4 inch > >You need at least 30 inspection rings, at least I used that many, but >only plan to open up some of the holes. I ordered 60 drain grommets, >but have some left over. > >To answer the other question about paint. I used Sherwin Williams on my >wing and tail surfaces. I bought a primer-gray tint in flat for the >base coats, then sprayed on the color on the stabilizer and one wing, >then had to buy another gallon, which I couldn't get to spray for love >of money. I was using a regular HVLP gun. I ended up brushing the last >coat of color on, using a Buff colored gloss that cost about >$40/gallon. It left brush strokes, not quite as nice as the ones on >Gary Bell's Piet that you are probably referring to from Brodhead (Blue >and Orange?) > >For the Fuselage, I went to an automotive paint store and bought a quart >of a red that I picked from their color charts, with the hardener, then >went to Home Depot and had them mix a gallon of Behr gloss latex to >match, and they did a good job. This stuff sprayed on pretty nice. > >One problem you will probably find with the Stewart glue and Latex >paint, is you get little whiskers sticking up on the edges of your >surface tapes that really need to be lightly sanded down between coats. >I'm accustomed to painting cars where you can lay 3 or 4 coats down in >an afternoon. With the latex it is best to wait for each coat to dry >and hit it lightly with sandpaper between coats. > >The lightweight fabric I used has an ID stamp every few feet along one >edge that is helpful to show you that you have enough paint on the keep >out the UV. I just put on enough of the base coat until you couldn't >see it anymore. > >In all I used 1-1/2 gallons of the Gray flat Base, Almost 2 gallons of >the Buff gloss paint on the wings and Stabilizer, and nearly the full >gallon of red on the fuselage and rudder. > >I live way down in Florida, so you aren't likely to see me in Brodhead >any time soon, but if I can get this thing finished, maybe I'll make it >to Sun-n-Fun next spring! > >Ben Charvet > > >Rick Holland wrote: >> How many yards of fabric did it take to cover your Piet? I plan on >> using 1.7 weight uncertified fabric, use the Stuart Systems stuff to >> stick it on and Latex paint. I talked to the guy that built one of the >> Corvair Piets at Broadhead this year(he was there with his Son and I >> don't remember his name), after looking at his Piet I assumed it had a >> really good doped paint job. It is a Latex paint job and here's how he >> finished it: >> >> - four cross-coats with latex primer (one coat painted vertically and >> allowed to dry, then one painted horizontally, dry and repeat) >> - four cross-coats with Satin Exterior Latex >> >> I created a test panel that I painted with Gloss Latex 5 years ago and >> screwed to a post outside and it still looks like new but it does have >> brush marks that can still be seen. I think one way to avoid brush >> marks is to use Satin rather than Gloss or High Gloss Latex (and it >> will look like an old fashion doped job but with better durability and >> lower cost). >> >> Anyhow if anyone has recently purchased fabic and found a place with a >> good price please let me know. >> >> Rick >> >> -- >> Rick Holland >> Castle Rock, Colorado >> >> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" >> * >> >> >> * > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:27 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Almost time to start covering this thing You are SO RIGHT Ben Charvet about watching how wide the fabric rolls are if you want to use the 'overlap' method of covering your wings. (otherwise you need to have an envelope sewn together to make the narrower rolls fit) Superflite carried the 1.7 oz stuff in the widest width so I went with them for my fabric and glue--the rest was finished in Randolph dope. Another savings-- we don't need the PMA certified stamp on our fabric (plus it all comes from the same mill no matter who you buy fabric from) so Superflite (used to anyway) carry the uncertified wide stuff for less than the factory built plane guys who need the certified fabric. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:29 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lee Bottom For those who maybe interested, here is a link to the Lee Bottom flyin the end of next month. The link has some videos of Mike Cuys piet as well as some of my Short Wing Piper friends who attend... enjoy http://www.aero-tv.net/index.cfm?videoid=59bb607d-d455-4a0a-9b15-f81798603473 Rick Schreiber lmforge@earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.