Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:53 AM - Re: these West Coast guys seem like they have a good sense of humor (Clif Dawson)
2. 02:43 AM - Re: Re: No RPM drop on mag check?? (Robert Ray)
3. 04:22 AM - Russell Ray's rib test/ Wood Options (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
4. 04:53 AM - Re: Spar splice (helspersew@aol.com)
5. 04:54 AM - Re: Re: Wood Options (helspersew@aol.com)
6. 05:07 AM - Re: electric engine (H RULE)
7. 05:48 AM - Fuel valve control (Jim Markle)
8. 06:05 AM - Control set-ups (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
9. 06:35 AM - spar splicing (Oscar Zuniga)
10. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Wood Options (Bill Church)
11. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Wood Options (Ryan Mueller)
12. 07:39 AM - Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS (Tim Willis)
13. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Wood Options (Ken Howe)
14. 09:11 AM - fuel tanks (Oscar Zuniga)
15. 09:11 AM - Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS (gliderx5@comcast.net)
16. 09:50 AM - Re: Wood Options (899PM)
17. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Wood Options (Bill Church)
18. 10:41 AM - perplexed at wood testing ? (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
19. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Wood Options (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
20. 11:20 AM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (Wayne Bressler)
21. 11:22 AM - Re: perplexed at wood testing =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? (Ken Howe)
22. 11:43 AM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (Jeff Boatright)
23. 11:52 AM - Air Camper load rating (Oscar Zuniga)
24. 11:54 AM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (John Hofmann)
25. 11:58 AM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (899PM)
26. 12:18 PM - Re: Air Camper load rating (Dave Abramson)
27. 12:18 PM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (Bill Church)
28. 12:26 PM - Re: Air Camper load rating (Rados Svagelj)
29. 12:43 PM - Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner (gwread@aol.com)
30. 01:05 PM - Re: Air Camper load rating (Ryan Mueller)
31. 01:22 PM - Re: Air Camper load rating (Jim Markle)
32. 01:33 PM - Re: perplexed at wood testing =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? (Ken Howe)
33. 02:31 PM - Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS (Doug Dever)
34. 02:43 PM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (Bill Church)
35. 03:22 PM - Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner (Thomas Bernie)
36. 03:49 PM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (Kip and Beth Gardner)
37. 04:04 PM - Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner (gwread@aol.com)
38. 05:51 PM - Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner (Ross Alexander)
39. 05:53 PM - Re: perplexed at wood testing ? (Doug Dever)
40. 06:51 PM - Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner (gwread@aol.com)
41. 07:08 PM - Re: electric engine (mike)
42. 07:09 PM - Re: Russell Ray's rib test/ Wood Options (Robert Ray)
43. 07:29 PM - Does anybody know this plane? (gcardinal)
44. 07:54 PM - The Book according to the Fisherman (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
45. 08:08 PM - Re: Fuel valve control (Clif Dawson)
46. 08:10 PM - Re: Air Camper load rating (Robert Ray)
47. 08:19 PM - Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS (Robert Ray)
48. 08:19 PM - Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS (Clif Dawson)
49. 08:24 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Dan Yocum)
50. 08:54 PM - Re: Does anybody know this plane? (Bill Church)
51. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: Does anybody know this plane? (Robert Ray)
52. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: Does anybody know this plane? (Robert Ray)
53. 09:21 PM - Re: Air Camper load rating (Bill Church)
54. 10:55 PM - Re: Re: Air Camper load rating (Robert Ray)
55. 11:04 PM - Re: Re: Does anybody know this plane? (Robert Ray)
56. 11:15 PM - Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS (Robert Ray)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: these West Coast guys seem like they have a good sense |
of humor
Ribs! forget the ribs. I'm all tanked up! Well, almost.
Clif
>
> Still with the ribs! What's with you guys and the ribs! I did get 3/4 of
> my
> center section built last weekend! (sure wish I had built those ribs
> first!)
>
> Gary Boothe
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: No RPM drop on mag check?? |
Oh so the tach was bad not the mags well lucky you.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov> wrote:
>
> Just a quick note on this subject - during our flight on Thursday we
> stopped in at friend's airfield and he lent me his digital rpm reader - I
> don't recall the official name of it at the moment.
>
> I have to do some more methodical tests, but what I did see suggests that
> the tachometer is low by about 11.4%. That is, at 1000RPM indicated on the
> tachometer, the prop was actually spinning at 1140RPM. So, at 2050RPM
> (which I do achieve when I lean it out) it's actually spinning at around
> 2280. That's close enough to redline for my tastes.
>
> When Tres delivered the plane he mentioned that at one point in the past
> the tach pegged itself at the high end. Turns out that some oil got up
> inside the tachometer from the cable. He cleaned the tachometer up, but
> apparently didn't recalibrate it. So, mystery solved on that one.
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
>
> Robert Ray wrote:
>
>> Why don't you disconnect both mags all input and out put wiring taps,
>> take an olmmeter and measure resistance across the coils, measure
>> the resistance to ground hopfully infinity, if they don't match there it
>> is.
>> Or if they don't match with in say < or > 15%
>> Russell
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov <mailto:
>> yocum@fnal.gov>> wrote:
>>
>> <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> tkreiner wrote:
>>
>> <tkreiner@gmail.com <mailto:tkreiner@gmail.com>>
>>
>> Dan,
>>
>> Without fully understanding what's going on, and without an
>> extensive knowledge of your engine, it's somewhat difficult to
>> figure out what's going on. A few questions might inform the
>> audience.
>>
>> Are the mags and ignition harnesses, & spark plugs - new, used,
>> worn out? Explain their condition, as it might help.
>>
>>
>> One mag is new in the last year. One plug is new 'cause the A&P
>> broke the old one during the last Annual. The harness is probably
>> the original from 1979 and probably before.
>>
>>
>>
>> How about the mechanical condition of the engine? Rebuilt?
>> Describe.
>>
>>
>> 400 SMOH, ~800 hour since new (estimated). Logs are incomplete from
>> before 1965, hence the reason for the overhaul. One cylinder was
>> cracked and replaced in '65 with "the same oversize." Compressions
>> are all in the mid to high 70's.
>>
>> I sent out a sample of the oil for analysis and no red flags were
>> found.
>>
>> This plane and engine has flown over 150 tach hours in the last 18
>> months and 50 hours in the 2 weeks leading up to Oshkosh!
>>
>>
>>
>> What fuel are you using?
>>
>>
>> 100LL with one shot of Marvel Mystery Oil per 15 gallons.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps there's no problem at all. Even though our expectation
>> is that the engine SHOULD show an rpm drop, that is not always
>> the case... On a plane I fly regularly, the entire ignition
>> system was recently replaced, i.e., new mags, harnesses, plugs,
>> and correctly timed. When the plane was put back into service,
>> there was an imperceptible rpm drop.
>>
>> It turned out, with a near perfect ignition system, clean fuel,
>> etc., the engine was burning so clean and completely that there
>> was no discernible drop in rpm during mag check.
>>
>> That's what I'm leaning toward, too. When Tres flew it from
>> California they flew it flat out as fast and lean as it would go for
>> as long as possible.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this adds some insight.
>>
>>
>> It does! I'm a glass half-full kind of guy but I like to make sure
>> there aren't any holes in the glass, too.
>>
>> The fact that at least one other engine out there in the world
>> exhibits the same sort of behaviour suggests that mine isn't
>> completely alone. 2 data points are always better than 1 (but still
>> not great...).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> -- Dan Yocum
>> Fermilab 630.840.6509
>> yocum@fnal.gov <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
>> <http://fermigrid.fnal.gov/>
>> Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
>> s List Un/Subscription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Russell Ray's rib test/ Wood Options |
Russell,
Have you been watching one too many episodes of The Red Green Show ?
No wonder I couldn't find you at Lee Bottom either last weekend. I should have
been looking for the guy with the Jim Beam hat on AND the G-suit. My bad---I
wish
I'd have known !
Mike C.
do not archive
Message 4
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Shad,
AC43-13 was revised a few years ago, and before the revision the spar splice angle
was always 12:1. I can't figure out why after many years it had to be increased.
When I made?the spar splices on my one-piece wing I referenced my old copy
and made it 12:1. Oh well, I guess it will hold together.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:19 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spar splice
Acording to 43-13? spar splice needs to be at a 15:1 angle of the spar thickness.?
The length of the scarf would be 15 times 3/4(or 1 inch if you use 1inch spars)?of
an inch or 11 1/4 inches long on each side (spar half) of the joint.?
then a reinforcement plate should be placed over the splice.? really you should
look up ac43-13 online or buy a copy, there is a diagram in there that shows
it better than I can explain it.? There are a few other particulars in there.?
My advise is buy spar matrial the full length, scarf joints add weight, and
lots of tedious precision work.? If it were a repair to an exsisting airplane
I would say ok splice it but this is a new airplane, so it would be worth the
extra couple hundred bucks to not fuss with the splice.
?
Just my 2 cents worth,
Shad
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
Ryan.......Are we going down this road again??? Please, no cartoon elephants this
time!!!
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.????? do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
I still wonder, how exactly did you keep 1000 lbs of tractor weights balanced on
the 1/2" wide capstrip of a single rib?
Ryan
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah I tested?a rib, I loaded the rib with tractor weights
and left it over night, the fake spars started to crush I don't remember
the exact weight I think 1000 lbs, this wasn't certified wood.
with 30 ribs that's 30,000 lbs' so yes I can do aerobatic maneuvers
with my pianos, girlfriend and dog on board as long as my shoulder
harness doesn't break while I'm pulling 12 negative g's,
I also bought an old G-suit from an ex military fighter pilot
to keep the blood out of my feet I'm wearing it right now.
?
No kidding I did test a rib to that weight and was amazed.
?
Russell
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: tenpol-List:electric engine |
What do you think of putting this engine in a Piet?I peronally think it wou
ld be awsome!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AWOW........=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0ACheck
this out.----=0Awww.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Dr
ag-Racing=0A=0A=0A>-=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=0A>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>hre
f="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=0A>
===================
Message 7
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Subject: | Fuel valve control |
Hey Clif,
How did you attach the bar (or tube) to the U shaped piece on the valve? Just
drill a round hole and tighten down with those bolts? Or some kind of opening
with flat sides and matching flat sides on the bar stock? What keeps it from
turning when you move the handle up or down?
I'm working on that very issue right now and have been wondering how to do it and
still keep it simple.
I'm thinking maybe just a round hole and tighten down the nuts nice and snug...but
I would not want to need to turn it off in a forced landing and not be able
to....
jm
-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Sep 29, 2009 2:42 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys seem like they have a good
sense of humor
>
>Ribs! forget the ribs. I'm all tanked up! Well, almost.
>
>Clif
>>
>> Still with the ribs! What's with you guys and the ribs! I did get 3/4 of
>> my
>> center section built last weekend! (sure wish I had built those ribs
>> first!)
>>
>> Gary Boothe
Message 8
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|
Members:
-
It appears several of my posts have been kicked back to me and not making t
o this forum. I guess Yahoo has been undergoing some changes and- fieldin
g many complaints of emails not getting to their destination.
-
My question is for the stick and control set-ups. I have seen just turnbuck
les and thimbles at each end in many areas of control cables. Can anyone se
nd me photos of the rigging so I can gather up some ideas as to what I need
to order to make sure I have adjustability and proper connections at each
end?
-
My confusion is when to use just a thimble at one end and a turnbuckle at t
he other. I guess I have seen so many different set-ups I am second guessin
g my next move! Pictures speak nothing but explain everything!
-
KMHeide
-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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Ryan wrote-
>If you are building a one-piece wing then you would have to
>splice the spars, per the plans.
Let's clarify the statement... a splice will be required but
do NOT splice the spars per the plans, with bolts down through
it from top to bottom. The manual and notes from the Pietenpol
family, and other sources, make a point of correcting this. It
is most definitely NOT the right way to make a spar splice!
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
Ryan.......Are we going down this road again??? Please, no cartoon
elephants this time!!!
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
I still wonder, how exactly did you keep 1000 lbs of tractor weights
balanced on the 1/2" wide capstrip of a single rib?
Ryan
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yeah I tested a rib, I loaded the rib with tractor weights
and left it over night, the fake spars started to crush I don't
remember
the exact weight I think 1000 lbs, this wasn't certified wood.
with 30 ribs that's 30,000 lbs' so yes I can do aerobatic
maneuvers
with my pianos, girlfriend and dog on board as long as my
shoulder
harness doesn't break while I'm pulling 12 negative g's,
I also bought an old G-suit from an ex military fighter pilot
to keep the blood out of my feet I'm wearing it right now.
No kidding I did test a rib to that weight and was amazed.
Russell
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
It's really unfortunate that you can't have a song autoplay when you
open an email, because all I can hear right now is the Benny Hill
theme song.
Ryan
Do not archive
Sent from my mobile device
On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:09 AM, "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
wrote:
> <ribtest.JPG>
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:38 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
>
> Ryan.......Are we going down this road again??? Please, no cartoon
> elephants this time!!!
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 8:47 pm
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
>
> I still wonder, how exactly did you keep 1000 lbs of tractor weights
> balanced on the 1/2" wide capstrip of a single rib?
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Yeah I tested a rib, I loaded the rib with tractor weights
> and left it over night, the fake spars started to crush I don't
> remember
> the exact weight I think 1000 lbs, this wasn't certified wood.
> with 30 ribs that's 30,000 lbs' so yes I can do aerobatic maneuvers
> with my pianos, girlfriend and dog on board as long as my shoulder
> harness doesn't break while I'm pulling 12 negative g's,
> I also bought an old G-suit from an ex military fighter pilot
> to keep the blood out of my feet I'm wearing it right now.
>
> No kidding I did test a rib to that weight and was amazed.
>
> Russell
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS |
Clif,
I am not asking for my own info, but for others who might be considering a fiberglass
tank. Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only accommodate
avgas and mogas, but mogas with ethanol (something we should avoid for other
reasons, too) just in case we get some, either by necessity or ignorance? [I
recall the problems some boaters had with ethanol in their glass tanks.]
Thanks, Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Sep 29, 2009 2:42 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys seem like they have a good
sense of humor
>
>Ribs! forget the ribs. I'm all tanked up! Well, almost.
>
>Clif
>>
>> Still with the ribs! What's with you guys and the ribs! I did get 3/4 of
>> my
>> center section built last weekend! (sure wish I had built those ribs
>> first!)
>>
>> Gary Boothe
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
Any chance you could post a couple pictures of your test rig? I was ran a
test on one of my ribs, and it broke at 175 lbs. Of course it revealed that
I had a glue-starved joint, so I'm taking another look at my glue-up
process and I expect to repeat my test.
--Ken
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:12:32 -0400, Robert Ray wrote: I cut a piece of
construction grade lumber down to spar size, the fake spar's were about
three feet long, I then hand selected my worse rib that had questionable
grain, I glued it to the spars and placed both spars across saw horses, I
had a box of three conductor inside telephone wire, I suspended the
barbells from the rib which was upside down to simulate positive g forces.
I had a full box of wire and I just used it to tie the weights under the
rib attached to the rib. I ran out out weight at 533 lbs' I then moved all
the weight to the front then to the back, then I asked Jan (German) if he
had any tractor weights at work the next day so then I went over
and
borrowed 500 lbs' of tractor weights, I added those evenly distributing
weight along the rib and left it over night. The next day the edges of the
fake spars were starting to crush slightly, the rib was OK, and it only had
gussets on one side. I also took pictures and have witnesses. NUF said
Russell
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Ryan Mueller wrote:
I still wonder, how exactly did you keep 1000 lbs of tractor weights
balanced on the 1/2" wide capstrip of a single rib?
Ryan
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Robert Ray wrote:
Yeah I tested a rib, I loaded the rib with tractor weights and left it
over night, the fake spars started to crush I don't remember the exact
weight I think 1000 lbs, this wasn't certified wood. with 30 ribs that's
30,000 lbs' so yes I can do aerobatic maneuvers with my pianos, girlfriend
and dog on board as long as my shoulder harness doesn't break while I'm
pulling 12 negative g's, I also bought an old G-suit from an ex military
fighter
pilot to keep the blood out of my feet I'm wearing it right now.
No kidding I did test a rib to that weight and was amazed. Russell
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Links:
------
[1] mailto:rmueller23@gmail.com
[2] mailto:rray032003@gmail.com
Message 14
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Tim asked-
>Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only
>accommodate avgas and mogas, but mogas with ethanol
>(something we should avoid for other reasons, too)
>just in case we get some, either by necessity or ignorance?
The glass is completely non-reactive with any of the
fuels and is not the issue; it's the epoxy resin used in
the layups. Of all the laminating resins available, the
only one that I know of that fills the bill is vinylester
resin and even that *could* have problems if you used
straight ethanol. At low percentages such as are used in
the wintertime in some states as autogas blend, it should
not be a problem.
I think all of the other epoxy resins will have problems
with fuels of one blend or the other and that's where
the problems have come up in the past, particularly when
autogas has been used. The resin can turn gooey and plug
up the fuel system, with obvious consequences, or it
can break down and the glass can delaminate. Vinylester
is just about the best for fuel tanks but it has a short
shelf life, terrible odor, and is a bit fussy to use.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS |
As I understand it the only resin that will stand up to ethanol in the long run
is vinylester. Polyester and epoxy are both effected. I am just finishing my
tank now using vinylester, and I hate that crap! It really stinks! I hope to have
some pictures and description of the tank and the process on my web site in
a couple of weeks, assuming that it actually holds fuel.
Malcolm Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Willis" <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:36:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS
Clif,
I am not asking for my own info, but for others who might be considering a fiberglass
tank. Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only accommodate
avgas and mogas, but mogas with ethanol (something we should avoid for other reasons,
too) just in case we get some, either by necessity or ignorance? [I recall
the problems some boaters had with ethanol in their glass tanks.]
Thanks, Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Sep 29, 2009 2:42 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys seem like they have a good
sense of humor
>
>Ribs! forget the ribs. I'm all tanked up! Well, almost.
>
>Clif
>>
>> Still with the ribs! What's with you guys and the ribs! I did get 3/4 of
>> my
>> center section built last weekend! (sure wish I had built those ribs
>> first!)
>>
>> Gary Boothe
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
With the rib inverted and held on fake spars, I pulled at 12-15 locations on the
rib capstrip with load spacing approximating the pressure curve of the airfoil
in flight(i.e. concentrated on the front section of the rib). My "load" on
the rib fixture was via engineering grade springs and wingnuts to make it easy
to count turns and track compression/spring rate. If memory serves, I heard a
crack at #358 of loading. This roughly translates to 10G's. If anyone is interested,
I can post a pic.
--------
PAPA MIKE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265574#265574
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
Now THAT sounds like a well thought out, sound, engineering-based
approach.
I think everybody would appreciate a photo of that. Well, I would,
anyway (even though it doesn't involve 1000 pounds of tractor weights or
a small elephant balanced precariously atop the capstrip).
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 899PM
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
--> <rockriverrifle@hotmail.com>
With the rib inverted and held on fake spars, I pulled at 12-15
locations on the rib capstrip with load spacing approximating the
pressure curve of the airfoil in flight(i.e. concentrated on the front
section of the rib). My "load" on the rib fixture was via engineering
grade springs and wingnuts to make it easy to count turns and track
compression/spring rate. If memory serves, I heard a crack at #358 of
loading. This roughly translates to 10G's. If anyone is interested, I
can post a pic.
--------
PAPA MIKE
Message 18
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Subject: | perplexed at wood testing ? |
I have to wonder why anyone would need to test an 80 year old airfoil design that
has never (to my knowledge) had a failure ?
I'm sure there is some satisfaction with finding out if you're ribs are built safely
but who of us has enough knowledge to even setup a proper scenario that
would represent a realistic load on the rib ? Instead of doing all this fiddle-farting
around I would rather just build my plane with a/c grade materials
and accepted practices and enjoy flying it. Just my opinion but unless you're
building with knotty pine lumber and Elmer's glue you shouldn't really even
be concerned with the strength of a Pietenpol wing rib.
Mike C.
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Wood Options |
Not that I have a desire to do loops or other aerobatic maneuvers in a Piet
but you're saying the piet wing is good for 10Gs. In the overall is would
be nice to kown what the aircraft as built to plans is capable of just as a
matter of general information purposes and not something I would be
willing to test through actual empirical methodology.
Do we have a realistic stress value for the Piet, For discussion purposes
and with no mathematical or engineering proof I have told people when asked
it is estimated at 3.5 Gs positive and negative.
If I have under or over estimated I would like to know what the real
number is, again for no practical purpose other than discussion regarding the
safety of the structure is all.
John
In a message dated 9/29/2009 1:10:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
eng@canadianrogers.com writes:
Now THAT sounds like a well thought out, sound, engineering-based
approach.
I think everybody would appreciate a photo of that. Well, I would, anyway
(even though it doesn't involve 1000 pounds of tractor weights or a small
elephant balanced precariously atop the capstrip).
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[_mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com)
] On Behalf Of 899PM
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Options
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "899PM"
--> <rockriverrifle@hotmail.com>
With the rib inverted and held on fake spars, I pulled at 12-15 locations
on the rib capstrip with load spacing approximating the pressure curve of
the airfoil in flight(i.e. concentrated on the front section of the rib). My
"load" on the rib fixture was via engineering grade springs and wingnuts
to make it easy to count turns and track compression/spring rate. If memory
serves, I heard a crack at #358 of loading. This roughly translates to
10G's. If anyone is interested, I can post a pic.
--------
PAPA MIKE
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: perplexed at wood testing ? |
I'm with Mike. Perhaps I don't have as much of the "experimenter"
nature in me, but I just don't see the benefit in straying from the
proven materials and procedures.
I'm not building a Piet now, but someday I will. When I do, you can
be sure that it will be of aircraft quality materials.
I understand the desire and/or need to build on a budget, but I fail
to see the value. As if this hobby didn't have enough risks already,
why would I want to add to them? Some substitutions are proven and
simple, but why try to re-engineer an 80-year old proven design?
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:36 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC
Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
> [ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
> I have to wonder why anyone would need to test an 80 year old
> airfoil design that has never (to my knowledge) had a failure ?
>
> I'm sure there is some satisfaction with finding out if you're ribs
> are built safely but who of us has enough knowledge to even setup a
> proper scenario that would represent a realistic load on the rib ?
> Instead of doing all this fiddle-farting around I would rather just
> build my plane with a/c grade materials and accepted practices and
> enjoy flying it. Just my opinion but unless you're building with
> knotty pine lumber and Elmer's glue you shouldn't really even be
> concerned with the strength of a Pietenpol wing rib.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: perplexed at wood testing =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? |
My reason for testing is to see if my building is up to snuff. This is the
first aircraft project I've attempted. While I'm comfortable working with
wood, I've never tried to put together a structure anything like this, and
with such negative consequences for getting it wrong. So, if I can see how
others are testing their ribs and can test mine with a comparable load,
then I'll have a lot more confidence in my own abilities.
My test last week did show that my gluing techniques were sub-par. I'm also
not sure if my test rig was a reasonable approximation of actual high-g
loads on a rib - is my rib as weak as I think it is or is my test rig
applying the loads poorly?
I'm glad I made a test. It showed that I was being way to stingy with that
expensive T-88. I've since reasoned that T-88 isn't so expensive that I
can't use enough :) I also decided that I was not using enough clamping
pressure (I'm going nail-less on my ribs.) I was using steel weights set on
the gussets to provide pressure, and I now don't think I used enough
weight. I've modified my jig so that I can use the ABS pipe section clamps.
The first new rib came out of the jig this morning. It looks like good
squeeze out, but not excessive, around all of the gussets
Just my thoughts.
--Ken
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:36:06 -0500, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC
Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
> Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
> I have to wonder why anyone would need to test an 80 year old airfoil
> design that has never (to my knowledge) had a failure ?
>
> I'm sure there is some satisfaction with finding out if you're ribs are
> built safely but who of us has enough knowledge to even setup a proper
> scenario that would represent a realistic load on the rib ? Instead of
> doing all this fiddle-farting around I would rather just build my plane
> with a/c grade materials and accepted practices and enjoy flying it.
Just
> my opinion but unless you're building with knotty pine lumber and Elmer's
> glue you shouldn't really even be concerned with the strength of a
> Pietenpol wing rib.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: perplexed at wood testing ? |
Rib stress analysis is not my cup of tea, either, but I do have in
interest in actual known failure points or modes. First, do they
exist for the Pietenpol Air Camper? That is, is there some
combination of design/build/activity that has produced a failure more
than once? For instance, the early V-tailed Bonanzas seemed to have
such a failure nexus with the tail attachment. There are now similar
questions being asked about Airbus vertical tail members.
Does a failure nexus exist on the Piet? If so, what is it?
>(GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>...Instead of doing all this fiddle-farting around I would rather
>just build my plane with a/c grade materials and accepted practices
>and enjoy flying it....
>Mike C.
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
Message 23
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Subject: | Air Camper load rating |
I would be concerned about a -3.5G load on the lift struts
on my airplane. Let's use very quick, rough, and conservative
numbers and say that the airplane is at gross, using a
rough 1100 lb. max gross. Under 3.5G loading, that's 3850 lbs.
and if we get really rough and say each of the four lift struts
is sharing that load equally (not even close to the actual
condition, but let's just say)- that's nearly 1000 lbs. that
each of the lift struts sees in compression loading. The jury
struts provide resistance against buckling failure in one mode,
but even at that- I would feel very iffy about that kind of
loading, particularly if there was any buffetting going on.
The attach bolts would be fine, even the ones at the wing- if
I recall, those are AN4 and in double shear, so with a shear
strength of 76000 psi, they should be good for something like
7000 lbs. each.
I believe I've heard it said that there has never been a
catastrophic structural failure of a Piet. Knowing how many of
them have flown and are flying, and how many zillions of people
have piloted them through all sorts of conditions, I think it's
safe to say that you really have to mistreat one to break
something structural on them.
And that's probably about as close as you're going to get to an
engineering analysis of the ultimate load rating on the airframe
unless someone wants to model it with a finite element analysis
or something sharper than a hardware-store yardstick.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | Re: perplexed at wood testing ? |
Failure to follow the plans....
"Smile Son. Never Disconcert the Masses."
Sorry Jeff, that was too easy :)
Do not archive
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
Madison, WI 53718
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com
On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:40 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote:
> >
>
> Rib stress analysis is not my cup of tea, either, but I do have in
> interest in actual known failure points or modes. First, do they
> exist for the Pietenpol Air Camper? That is, is there some
> combination of design/build/activity that has produced a failure
> more than once? For instance, the early V-tailed Bonanzas seemed to
> have such a failure nexus with the tail attachment. There are now
> similar questions being asked about Airbus vertical tail members.
>
> Does a failure nexus exist on the Piet? If so, what is it?
>
>> [ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>> ...Instead of doing all this fiddle-farting around I would rather
>> just build my plane with a/c grade materials and accepted practices
>> and enjoy flying it....
>> Mike C.
>
>
> --
>
> Jeff Boatright
> "Now let's think about this..."
>
>
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: perplexed at wood testing ? |
Mike,
All good points.
I originally tested a wing rib to 1) Like Ken, give me a warm and fuzzy that my
t-88 gluing was up to snuff and 2) to prove to others(on this list 11 years ago)
that the Piet rib per plans is built like the proverbial brick crap-house.
You may remember that healthy debate. Few of the "old timers'" with the bulk
of the knowledge were(or are) on the web to defend the design and LOTS of good
intentioned folks were probably scared off from the remarks of some non-building
know-it-alls.
I have a fairly healthy wooden wing rib collection. None are built as heavily as
the Piet...not even the Ford built Waco GC-4A glider ribs. An example of lightness
on the other end is the Porterfield CP-50 rib. Slightly less than 1/4"
square.
--------
PAPA MIKE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265594#265594
Message 26
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Subject: | Air Camper load rating |
Greetings all!
There has been at least 1 catastrophic wing failier on a Pietenpol....
In Chet Peeks book..... There is a story of someone doing aerobatics, and
his Pietenpol fell apart in the air. (back in the 20's or 30's)
Just wanted to throw that out there!
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
Zuniga
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:52 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
I would be concerned about a -3.5G load on the lift struts
on my airplane. Let's use very quick, rough, and conservative
numbers and say that the airplane is at gross, using a
rough 1100 lb. max gross. Under 3.5G loading, that's 3850 lbs.
and if we get really rough and say each of the four lift struts
is sharing that load equally (not even close to the actual
condition, but let's just say)- that's nearly 1000 lbs. that
each of the lift struts sees in compression loading. The jury
struts provide resistance against buckling failure in one mode,
but even at that- I would feel very iffy about that kind of
loading, particularly if there was any buffetting going on.
The attach bolts would be fine, even the ones at the wing- if
I recall, those are AN4 and in double shear, so with a shear
strength of 76000 psi, they should be good for something like
7000 lbs. each.
I believe I've heard it said that there has never been a
catastrophic structural failure of a Piet. Knowing how many of
them have flown and are flying, and how many zillions of people
have piloted them through all sorts of conditions, I think it's
safe to say that you really have to mistreat one to break
something structural on them.
And that's probably about as close as you're going to get to an
engineering analysis of the ultimate load rating on the airframe
unless someone wants to model it with a finite element analysis
or something sharper than a hardware-store yardstick.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | perplexed at wood testing ? |
Ken,
If you build to the plans, using standard building practices, there
should be no need to test your construction. The only testing of
structures that makes any sense to me is with an unproven design.
It sounds like you were not using standard building practices. See the
attached Technical Data Sheet for "expensive" T-88. It clearly says that
"glue line thickness is not critical, and clamping is not necessary if
the joint is undisturbed during the setting of the adhesive." Your
conclusion that you were not using enough pressure is unfounded, since
T-88 (unlike Resorcinol) does NOT need to be clamped. You are correct
when you say you were being "too stingy" with the T-88. Wet both mating
surfaces with a liberal amount of adhesive before assembling the joints.
"Liberal" means that there is sufficient glue to fill any gaps that
might exist between the wood pieces. When you put the pieces together,
there should be a little squeeze-out. If you have a lot of squeeze-out,
use less glue on the next joint, until you get a feel for the correct
amount.
Go to the EAA website, and check out the hints for homebuilders videos
in the multimedia section. There is one specifically dealing with gluing
gussets with T-88.
By the way, you might spend $100 on T-88 to build the entire airplane.
That isn't a significant amount when you consider the total cost of the
project or the importance of what the epoxy does.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Howe
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: perplexed at wood testing ?
My reason for testing is to see if my building is up to snuff. This is
the first aircraft project I've attempted. While I'm comfortable working
with wood, I've never tried to put together a structure anything like
this, and with such negative consequences for getting it wrong. So, if I
can see how others are testing their ribs and can test mine with a
comparable load, then I'll have a lot more confidence in my own
abilities.
My test last week did show that my gluing techniques were sub-par. I'm
also not sure if my test rig was a reasonable approximation of actual
high-g loads on a rib - is my rib as weak as I think it is or is my test
rig applying the loads poorly?
I'm glad I made a test. It showed that I was being way to stingy with
that expensive T-88. I've since reasoned that T-88 isn't so expensive
that I can't use enough :) I also decided that I was not using enough
clamping pressure (I'm going nail-less on my ribs.) I was using steel
weights set on the gussets to provide pressure, and I now don't think I
used enough weight. I've modified my jig so that I can use the ABS pipe
section clamps.
The first new rib came out of the jig this morning. It looks like good
squeeze out, but not excessive, around all of the gussets
Just my thoughts.
--Ken
Message 28
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|
Subject: | Re: Air Camper load rating |
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
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<coordinates>14.59800438862544,46.05490178405317,0</coordinates>
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</kml>
Dave Abramson wrote:
>
> Greetings all!
>
> There has been at least 1 catastrophic wing failier on a Pietenpol....
>
> In Chet Peeks book..... There is a story of someone doing aerobatics, and
> his Pietenpol fell apart in the air. (back in the 20's or 30's)
>
> Just wanted to throw that out there!
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
> Zuniga
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:52 AM
> To: Pietenpol List
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
>
>
>
>
> I would be concerned about a -3.5G load on the lift struts
> on my airplane. Let's use very quick, rough, and conservative
> numbers and say that the airplane is at gross, using a
> rough 1100 lb. max gross. Under 3.5G loading, that's 3850 lbs.
> and if we get really rough and say each of the four lift struts
> is sharing that load equally (not even close to the actual
> condition, but let's just say)- that's nearly 1000 lbs. that
> each of the lift struts sees in compression loading. The jury
> struts provide resistance against buckling failure in one mode,
> but even at that- I would feel very iffy about that kind of
> loading, particularly if there was any buffetting going on.
>
> The attach bolts would be fine, even the ones at the wing- if
> I recall, those are AN4 and in double shear, so with a shear
> strength of 76000 psi, they should be good for something like
> 7000 lbs. each.
>
> I believe I've heard it said that there has never been a
> catastrophic structural failure of a Piet. Knowing how many of
> them have flown and are flying, and how many zillions of people
> have piloted them through all sorts of conditions, I think it's
> safe to say that you really have to mistreat one to break
> something structural on them.
>
> And that's probably about as close as you're going to get to an
> engineering analysis of the ultimate load rating on the airframe
> unless someone wants to model it with a finite element analysis
> or something sharper than a hardware-store yardstick.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
--
LP Rado
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner |
I used 3/8" M-D rubber weather seal. I have attached a pixture of the package that
you can pick up at your local big box home improvement center. I?just used
the stick surface it came with as I wasnt sure I would like the results but it
worked! Also a picture of the end result. Gap sealed.
I also included a picture of "Rocky" with the Broadhead banner my wife won at the
Brodhead fly in this year
Gary
N10GR
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
How did you sealo the gaps on the vertical and horizontal stabilizer? Duct tape
or what would you suggest. Ross in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada C-FTJM
From: tengulfromeo <gwread@aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:04:50 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
I recently sealed my elevator gap which improved control response. (I strongly
recommend gap seals on ailerons, rudder and elevator on the Pietenpol).
Just for kicks this weekend I added vortex generators to the underside of my horizontal
stabilizer and definitely noticed improved elevator authority on landing
flare.
Crazy I know, and if they didn't look so darn noticeable and out of character for
an antique, but still it has me thinking........has anyone had experience with
vortex generators on the Piet wing?
Gary
N10GR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/vsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
_ref="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronibsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp; ? ? ? ? ? ? -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite
sites. Download it now!
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite
sites. Download it now!
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Subject: | Re: Air Camper load rating |
That statement is not quite correct. There are two stories in the book
about crashes stemming from aerobatics; one was a Mr. Galen Elser and
the other a gentleman named Bennie Skaarberg.
Both aircraft reportedly fell inverted from the top side of an
attempted loop, thereby putting negative loading on the wing struts.
The struts promptly failed, and the wings departed the aircraft. The
wings themselves did not fail, the struts did.
As Chet later writes, 'Bernard always warned against doing "stunts"'.
If you want to do stunts, build yourself a Pitts. :P
Ryan
Sent from my mobile device
On Sep 29, 2009, at 2:16 PM, "Dave Abramson"
<davea@symbolicdisplays.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Greetings all!
>
> There has been at least 1 catastrophic wing failier on a Pietenpol....
>
> In Chet Peeks book..... There is a story of someone doing
> aerobatics, and
> his Pietenpol fell apart in the air. (back in the 20's or 30's)
>
> Just wanted to throw that out there!
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
> Zuniga
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:52 AM
> To: Pietenpol List
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
>
>
> >
>
>
> I would be concerned about a -3.5G load on the lift struts
> on my airplane. Let's use very quick, rough, and conservative
> numbers and say that the airplane is at gross, using a
> rough 1100 lb. max gross. Under 3.5G loading, that's 3850 lbs.
> and if we get really rough and say each of the four lift struts
> is sharing that load equally (not even close to the actual
> condition, but let's just say)- that's nearly 1000 lbs. that
> each of the lift struts sees in compression loading. The jury
> struts provide resistance against buckling failure in one mode,
> but even at that- I would feel very iffy about that kind of
> loading, particularly if there was any buffetting going on.
>
> The attach bolts would be fine, even the ones at the wing- if
> I recall, those are AN4 and in double shear, so with a shear
> strength of 76000 psi, they should be good for something like
> 7000 lbs. each.
>
> I believe I've heard it said that there has never been a
> catastrophic structural failure of a Piet. Knowing how many of
> them have flown and are flying, and how many zillions of people
> have piloted them through all sorts of conditions, I think it's
> safe to say that you really have to mistreat one to break
> something structural on them.
>
> And that's probably about as close as you're going to get to an
> engineering analysis of the ultimate load rating on the airframe
> unless someone wants to model it with a finite element analysis
> or something sharper than a hardware-store yardstick.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
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Subject: | Air Camper load rating |
Agreed, there have actually been a number of "failures" with Pietenpols. Just
none (that I've ever heard of) due to the design.
I always enjoy pointing out to "non aviation types" that the so called "failures"
had everything to do with the pilot.
Seems everyone I've ever showed my project to (non aviation types, that is) always
want to know if it's gonna fall apart in flight...it's nice to be able to
say "As long as I fly it the way I'm supposed to fly it...no problem!"
jm
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Abramson <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
>Sent: Sep 29, 2009 2:16 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
>
>
>Greetings all!
>
>There has been at least 1 catastrophic wing failier on a Pietenpol....
>
>In Chet Peeks book..... There is a story of someone doing aerobatics, and
>his Pietenpol fell apart in the air. (back in the 20's or 30's)
>
>Just wanted to throw that out there!
>
>Dave
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
>Zuniga
>Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:52 AM
>To: Pietenpol List
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
>
>
>
>
>I would be concerned about a -3.5G load on the lift struts
>on my airplane. Let's use very quick, rough, and conservative
>numbers and say that the airplane is at gross, using a
>rough 1100 lb. max gross. Under 3.5G loading, that's 3850 lbs.
>and if we get really rough and say each of the four lift struts
>is sharing that load equally (not even close to the actual
>condition, but let's just say)- that's nearly 1000 lbs. that
>each of the lift struts sees in compression loading. The jury
>struts provide resistance against buckling failure in one mode,
>but even at that- I would feel very iffy about that kind of
>loading, particularly if there was any buffetting going on.
>
>The attach bolts would be fine, even the ones at the wing- if
>I recall, those are AN4 and in double shear, so with a shear
>strength of 76000 psi, they should be good for something like
>7000 lbs. each.
>
>I believe I've heard it said that there has never been a
>catastrophic structural failure of a Piet. Knowing how many of
>them have flown and are flying, and how many zillions of people
>have piloted them through all sorts of conditions, I think it's
>safe to say that you really have to mistreat one to break
>something structural on them.
>
>And that's probably about as close as you're going to get to an
>engineering analysis of the ultimate load rating on the airframe
>unless someone wants to model it with a finite element analysis
>or something sharper than a hardware-store yardstick.
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>Air Camper NX41CC
>San Antonio, TX
>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
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Subject: | perplexed at wood testing =?UTF-8?Q?=3F? |
Bill,
I agree with everything you said, I perhaps wasn't very clear in what I
intended to say. By 'insufficient clamping pressure' what I meant was
"insufficient pressure to close up the small gaps and maintain contact
given that I did not use enough T-88". I've read the Technical Data Sheet
and have viewed the excellent EAA how-to videos. My comments on T-88 were a
bit tongue-in-cheek. I realize that trying to use 'just enough' T-88 was
plainly wrong, and in the grand scheme the cost of T-88 is not significant.
As a result of my failed test I've made several changes to gluing process,
including being more careful about leveling the contact areas of every
joint (that's out of Tony B's book), using enough T-88 to fully wet both
surfaces and a different clamping method that will insure contact even if I
jar the jig as I progress around the rib.
I also of course realize that I'm using a 'non-standard' building
technique. That's one reason I wanted to test how I was doing. A basic
principle of the Experimental Amateur Built classification is education,
and I'm learning as I go. For me, using cement coated brass nails to hold
the gussets in place is just as non-standard as clamping. I've never done
it before and I've never watched anyone making a rib that way. Even the EAA
video uses a technique that didn't exist in 1929 (staples). I highly value
the work Mr. Pietenpol did, but you also have to remember that (as far as I
know or have read) he never built 2 aircraft the same. He was experimenting
all the time, some of the obvious things he changed were engines, landing
gear, and spar dimensions. I'd be willing to bet that there are many little
changes that aren't so obvious. When I'm done, my airplane will not be
built exactly to plans, but then I doubt any of them truly are. You can't
show everything exactly on 8 sheets (although they are amazingly complete
for just being 8 sheets.) I'll still be proud to call it a Pietenpol.
--Ken
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:15:58 -0400, "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
wrote:
> Ken,
>
> If you build to the plans, using standard building practices, there
> should be no need to test your construction. The only testing of
> structures that makes any sense to me is with an unproven design.
> It sounds like you were not using standard building practices. See the
> attached Technical Data Sheet for "expensive" T-88. It clearly says that
> "glue line thickness is not critical, and clamping is not necessary if
> the joint is undisturbed during the setting of the adhesive." Your
> conclusion that you were not using enough pressure is unfounded, since
> T-88 (unlike Resorcinol) does NOT need to be clamped. You are correct
> when you say you were being "too stingy" with the T-88. Wet both mating
> surfaces with a liberal amount of adhesive before assembling the joints.
> "Liberal" means that there is sufficient glue to fill any gaps that
> might exist between the wood pieces. When you put the pieces together,
> there should be a little squeeze-out. If you have a lot of squeeze-out,
> use less glue on the next joint, until you get a feel for the correct
> amount.
> Go to the EAA website, and check out the hints for homebuilders videos
> in the multimedia section. There is one specifically dealing with gluing
> gussets with T-88.
> By the way, you might spend $100 on T-88 to build the entire airplane.
> That isn't a significant amount when you consider the total cost of the
> project or the importance of what the epoxy does.
>
> Bill C.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Howe
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:18 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: perplexed at wood testing ?
>
>
>
> My reason for testing is to see if my building is up to snuff. This is
> the first aircraft project I've attempted. While I'm comfortable working
> with wood, I've never tried to put together a structure anything like
> this, and with such negative consequences for getting it wrong. So, if I
> can see how others are testing their ribs and can test mine with a
> comparable load, then I'll have a lot more confidence in my own
> abilities.
>
> My test last week did show that my gluing techniques were sub-par. I'm
> also not sure if my test rig was a reasonable approximation of actual
> high-g loads on a rib - is my rib as weak as I think it is or is my test
> rig applying the loads poorly?
>
> I'm glad I made a test. It showed that I was being way to stingy with
> that expensive T-88. I've since reasoned that T-88 isn't so expensive
> that I can't use enough :) I also decided that I was not using enough
> clamping pressure (I'm going nail-less on my ribs.) I was using steel
> weights set on the gussets to provide pressure, and I now don't think I
> used enough weight. I've modified my jig so that I can use the ABS pipe
> section clamps.
> The first new rib came out of the jig this morning. It looks like good
> squeeze out, but not excessive, around all of the gussets
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> --Ken
>
Message 33
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Subject: | these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS |
vinyl ester resin is compatable with av gas
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> Date: Tue=2C 29 Sep 2009 09:36:29 -0500
> From: timothywillis@earthlink.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS
>
.net>
>
> Clif=2C
> I am not asking for my own info=2C but for others who might be considerin
g a fiberglass tank. Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only a
ccommodate avgas and mogas=2C but mogas with ethanol (something we should a
void for other reasons=2C too) just in case we get some=2C either by necess
ity or ignorance? [I recall the problems some boaters had with ethanol in t
heir glass tanks.]
> Thanks=2C Tim in central TX
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
> >Sent: Sep 29=2C 2009 2:42 AM
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys seem like they have a
good sense of humor
> >
> >Ribs! forget the ribs. I'm all tanked up! Well=2C almost.
> >
> >Clif
> >>
> >> Still with the ribs! What's with you guys and the ribs! I did get 3/4
of
> >> my
> >> center section built last weekend! (sure wish I had built those ribs
> >> first!)
> >>
> >> Gary Boothe
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
=0A
_________________________________________________________________=0A
Hotmail=AE has ever-growing storage! Don=92t worry about storage limits.=0A
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tuto
rial_Storage_062009
Message 34
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Subject: | perplexed at wood testing ? |
Ken,
My comment regarding "standard construction practices" had nothing to do
with clamping, or nailing, or stapling, or the lack thereof. It was
based solely on the practice of using the materials specified by the
designer, and using the adhesive of choice in the manner in which it is
designed to be used. T-88 is a well proven adhesive which has been used
in aircraft construction for quite a while - long enough to be
considered a "standard practice" (as has Resorcinol, which has very
different directions for use). But if an adhesive is not used as
directed, then its use becomes "non-standard". With T-88, if not enough
epoxy is applied to the joints, or if excessive clamping pressure is
applied (resulting in glue starvation), the joints will not achieve the
design strength. In your test rib, you did not use enough epoxy. That
was my point.
Having said that, from the sounds of things, you are on the right track.
You obtained (and actually read) the Bingelis books. You've read the
data sheets for your adhesive. You've witnessed (via video) some wood
construction techniques. And now, you've tried building a rib, and seen
what you needed to change in your technique. That's what it's all about.
Live and learn (and live).
While your comments regarding "expensive T-88" were intended to be
tongue-in-cheek, it seems that many builders (and this comment is not
directed at you, personally) appear to have a mentality that there are
many opportunities to cut corners, in an attempt to reduce the cost to
build. I have read many posts about builders trying to calculate the
EXACT ideal amount of epoxy that one should mix to assemble a wing rib -
with the goal being that the last drop scraped off the mixing board (or
cup, or whatever) gets used to glue the last gusset in place. Well, what
does a builder do if he comes up just a little bit short? I always was
left with a bit of epoxy (about 1/8" deep) left in the bottom of my
mixing cup when I finished a rib. Those remains are left in that mixing
cup, dated, and kept as samples of my glue mix. I will probably end up
with $25 worth of "wasted" epoxy by the time I'm finished. That will be
less than a half tank of gas - maybe two hours in the air.
If one is a scrounger, it is said that a Pietenpol can be built for
under $10,000. But if you don't squeeze the pennies, your Piet might
approach $20,000. That's not a huge range, and the upper value is still
a very cheap airplane, and once finished, the building costs will become
more and more insignificant when the costs of hangar space, insurance,
fuel, oil and maintenance are factored in. I'm trying to keep my costs
down as well, but sometimes I'm baffled by the "logic" of some builders.
In my opinion (which is worth every penny you paid for it), if the cost
of a bottle of epoxy is a financial concern, then maybe building an
airplane isn't a good decision. Again, Ken, I'm not directing these
comments at you, just putting it "out there".
Bill C.
(stepping off the soapbox now)
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner |
Guys,
Another way is to use fabric when covering, but you can't take the
elevators off without cutting them.
Regards,
Tom
On Sep 29, 2009, at 3:42 PM, gwread@aol.com wrote:
>
> I used 3/8" M-D rubber weather seal. I have attached a pixture of
> the package that you can pick up at your local big box home
> improvement center. I just used the stick surface it came with as I
> wasnt sure I would like the results but it worked! Also a picture of
> the end result. Gap sealed.
> I also included a picture of "Rocky" with the Broadhead banner my
> wife won at the Brodhead fly in this year
> Gary
> N10GR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:52 pm
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
>
> How did you sealo the gaps on the vertical and horizontal
> stabilizer? Duct tape or what would you suggest. Ross in
> Orangeville, Ontario, Canada C-FTJM
>
> From: tengulfromeo <gwread@aol.com>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:04:50 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
>
>
> I recently sealed my elevator gap which improved control response.
> (I strongly recommend gap seals on ailerons, rudder and elevator on
> the Pietenpol).
>
> Just for kicks this weekend I added vortex generators to the
> underside of my horizontal stabilizer and definitely noticed
> improved elevator authority on landing flare.
>
> Crazy I know, and if they didn't look so darn noticeable and out of
> character for an antique, but still it has me thinking........has
> anyone had experience with vortex generators on the Piet wing?
>
> Gary
> N10GR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/vsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> _ref="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronibsp
> ; Thank you for your generous nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
>
>
> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark
> your favourite sites. Download it now!
> <IMG00308.jpg><IMG00307.jpg><IMG00223.jpg>
Message 36
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Subject: | Re: perplexed at wood testing ? |
AW Mikey -
Why did you go & have to drag the Fisherman's construction methods
into this?
Kip Gardner
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:36 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC
Aerospace Corporation] wrote:
> [ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
> I have to wonder why anyone would need to test an 80 year old
> airfoil design that has never (to my knowledge) had a failure ?
>
> I'm sure there is some satisfaction with finding out if you're ribs
> are built safely but who of us has enough knowledge to even setup a
> proper scenario that would represent a realistic load on the
> rib ? Instead of doing all this fiddle-farting around I would
> rather just build my plane with a/c grade materials and accepted
> practices and enjoy flying it. Just my opinion but unless you're
> building with knotty pine lumber and Elmer's glue you shouldn't
> really even be concerned with the strength of a Pietenpol wing rib.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 37
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner |
Nice work. I used fabric on the ailerons.
Gary
N10GR
"If we love flying so much why are we in a hurry to get there?"
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Bernie <tsbernie@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 6:20 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner
Guys,
Another way is to use fabric when covering, but you can't take the elevators off
without cutting them.
Regards,
Tom
On Sep 29, 2009, at 3:42 PM, gwread@aol.com wrote:
I used 3/8" M-D rubber weather seal. I have attached a pixture of the package that
you can pick up at your local big box home improvement center. I?just used
the stick surface it came with as I wasnt sure I would like the results but it
worked! Also a picture of the end result. Gap sealed.
I also included a picture of "Rocky" with the Broadhead banner my wife won at the
Brodhead fly in this year
Gary
N10GR
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
To:?pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
How did you sealo the gaps on the vertical and horizontal stabilizer? Duct tape
or what would you suggest. Ross in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada C-FTJM
From:?tengulfromeo <gwread@aol.com>
To:?pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent:?Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:04:50 PM
Subject:?Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
I recently sealed my elevator gap which improved control response. (I strongly
recommend gap seals on ailerons, rudder and elevator on the Pietenpol).?
Just for kicks this weekend I added vortex generators to the underside of my horizontal
stabilizer and definitely noticed improved elevator authority on landing
flare.?
Crazy I know, and if they didn't look so darn noticeable and out of character for
an antique, but still it has me thinking........has anyone had experience with
vortex generators on the Piet wing??
Gary?
N10GR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/vsp; -->?http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
_ref="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronibsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp; ? ? ? ? ? ? -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar :?Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite
sites. Download it now!<IMG00308.jpg><IMG00307.jpg><IMG00223.jpg>
=
Message 38
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|
Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner |
I am not familiar with this material called MD rubber weaqther seal. What store
sells it? What are it's dimensions? Width, thickness, lengths? Appreciate any
info. Thanx Ross
________________________________
From: Thomas Bernie <tsbernie@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:20:56 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner
Guys,
Another way is to use fabric when covering, but you can't take the elevators off
without cutting them.
Regards,
Tom
On Sep 29, 2009, at 3:42 PM, gwread@aol.com wrote:
>I used 3/8" M-D rubber weather seal. I have attached a pixture of the package
that you can pick up at your local big box home improvement center. I just used
the stick surface it came with as I wasnt sure I would like the results but
it worked! Also a picture of the end result. Gap sealed.
>I also included a picture of "Rocky" with the Broadhead banner my wife won at
the Brodhead fly in this year
>Gary
>N10GR
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:52 pm
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
>
>
>How did you sealo the gaps on the vertical and horizontal stabilizer? Duct tape
or what would you suggest. Ross in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada C-FTJM
>
>
________________________________
From: tengulfromeo <gwread@aol.com>
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:04:50 PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
>
>
>I recently sealed my elevator gap which improved control response. (I strongly
recommend gap seals on ailerons, rudder and elevator on the Pietenpol).
>
>Just for kicks this weekend I added vortex generators to the underside of my horizontal
stabilizer and definitely noticed improved elevator authority on landing
flare.
>
>Crazy I know, and if they didn't look so darn noticeable and out of character
for an antique, but still it has me thinking........has anyone had experience
with vortex generators on the Piet wing?
>
>Gary
>N10GR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/vsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>_ref="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronibsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
________________________________
>Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite
sites. Download it now!<IMG00308.jpg><IMG00307.jpg><IMG00223.jpg>
__________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite
sites. Download it now
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Subject: | perplexed at wood testing ? |
You don't need toapproximate loading. All you need to do is see if the woo
d failed or the glue joint failed first. The method of destruction doesn't
really matter.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: perplexed at wood testing ?
> Date: Tue=2C 29 Sep 2009 12:18:04 -0600
> From: ken@cooper-mtn.com
>
>
>
> My reason for testing is to see if my building is up to snuff. This is th
e
> first aircraft project I've attempted. While I'm comfortable working with
> wood=2C I've never tried to put together a structure anything like this
=2C and
> with such negative consequences for getting it wrong. So=2C if I can see
how
> others are testing their ribs and can test mine with a comparable load=2C
> then I'll have a lot more confidence in my own abilities.
>
> My test last week did show that my gluing techniques were sub-par. I'm al
so
> not sure if my test rig was a reasonable approximation of actual high-g
> loads on a rib - is my rib as weak as I think it is or is my test rig
> applying the loads poorly?
>
> I'm glad I made a test. It showed that I was being way to stingy with tha
t
> expensive T-88. I've since reasoned that T-88 isn't so expensive that I
> can't use enough :) I also decided that I was not using enough clamping
> pressure (I'm going nail-less on my ribs.) I was using steel weights set
on
> the gussets to provide pressure=2C and I now don't think I used enough
> weight. I've modified my jig so that I can use the ABS pipe section clamp
s.
> The first new rib came out of the jig this morning. It looks like good
> squeeze out=2C but not excessive=2C around all of the gussets
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> --Ken
>
> On Tue=2C 29 Sep 2009 12:36:06 -0500=2C "Cuy=2C Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASR
C
> Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
C
> > Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
> >
> > I have to wonder why anyone would need to test an 80 year old airfoil
> > design that has never (to my knowledge) had a failure ?
> >
> > I'm sure there is some satisfaction with finding out if you're ribs are
> > built safely but who of us has enough knowledge to even setup a proper
> > scenario that would represent a realistic load on the rib ? Instead of
> > doing all this fiddle-farting around I would rather just build my plane
> > with a/c grade materials and accepted practices and enjoy flying it.
> Just
> > my opinion but unless you're building with knotty pine lumber and Elmer
's
> > glue you shouldn't really even be concerned with the strength of a
> > Pietenpol wing rib.
> >
> > Mike C.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
=0A
_________________________________________________________________=0A
Bing=99 brings you maps=2C menus=2C and reviews organized in one place.
Try it now.=0A
http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&cre
a=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner |
I attached pictures of the package, showing the dimensions. Did they come through
on the original email or do I need to post them somewhere?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner
I am not familiar with this material called MD rubber weaqther seal. What store
sells it? What are it's dimensions? Width, thickness, lengths? Appreciate any
info. Thanx? Ross
From: Thomas Bernie <tsbernie@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:20:56 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators - Broadhead Banner
Guys,
Another way is to use fabric when covering, but you can't take the elevators off
without cutting them.
Regards,
Tom
On Sep 29, 2009, at 3:42 PM, gwread@aol.com wrote:
I used 3/8" M-D rubber weather seal. I have attached a pixture of the package that
you can pick up at your local big box home improvement center. I?just used
the stick surface it came with as I wasnt sure I would like the results but it
worked! Also a picture of the end result. Gap sealed.
I also included a picture of "Rocky" with the Broadhead banner my wife won at the
Brodhead fly in this year
Gary
N10GR
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Alexander <karbath1@yahoo.ca>
To:?pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
How did you sealo the gaps on the vertical and horizontal stabilizer? Duct tape
or what would you suggest. Ross in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada C-FTJM
From:?tengulfromeo <gwread@aol.com>
To:?pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent:?Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:04:50 PM
Subject:?Pietenpol-List: Vortex Generators
I recently sealed my elevator gap which improved control response. (I strongly
recommend gap seals on ailerons, rudder and elevator on the Pietenpol).?
Just for kicks this weekend I added vortex generators to the underside of my horizontal
stabilizer and definitely noticed improved elevator authority on landing
flare.?
Crazy I know, and if they didn't look so darn noticeable and out of character for
an antique, but still it has me thinking........has anyone had experience with
vortex generators on the Piet wing??
Gary?
N10GR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/vsp; -->?http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
_ref="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronibsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp; ? ? ? ? ? ? -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar :?Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your favourite
sites. Download it now!<IMG00308.jpg><IMG00307.jpg><IMG00223.jpg>
Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the
Web BETA
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Subject: | tenpol-List:electric engine |
That much power (300 Hp) would be spectacularly awesome in a Piet...for a
few minutes of flight time.
(Math is easier for me if we just go with 100 Hp, a more reasonable number
for Piets, so that is what I use here initially.)
The best energy storage density of lithium-ion batteries these days is
around 200 W-hr/Kg, or about 0.12 Hp-Hr/Lb. To get 100 Hp for one hour
would require about 850 Lbs of batteries (at an unattainable 100%
efficiency).
A Piet needs about 30-40 Hp to cruise straight and level at a relatively
slow speed. Consider that two hours of gasoline (at 5 gph) is about 60 lbs.
I'm guessing that the electric motor weighs something less than a 100 Hp
aircraft motor so assume a motor that weighs 100 lb less than its internal
combustion counterpart. To cruise electrically for two hours, you would
need about 600 Lb of lithium-ion batteries (with something more for
takeoff). Minus the motor and gas weight savings, that adds 440Lb to your
existing takeoff weight. With a pre-existing 650 Lb empty weight and 200
lbs of pilot, you have a 1300 Lb airplane. That might upset the stress
analysis guys, but a Piet is pretty strong. And, with 300 Hp of takeoff
power, 1300 lb will get off the ground right smartly.
However, every time you climb, you eat up cruising time.
Everyone, please feel free to critique my reasoning.
Mike Hardaway
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of H RULE
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List:electric engine
What do you think of putting this engine in a Piet?I peronally think it
would be awsome!
WOW........
Check this out.
www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
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Subject: | Re: Russell Ray's rib test/ Wood Options |
Micheal,
Oh it had rained so much I just decided to stay home and clean the garage
and
put my G-suit in the washer! Maybe I'll see you at Brodhead.
Russell
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace
Corporation] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
> Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
>
> Russell,
>
> Have you been watching one too many episodes of The Red Green Show ?
>
> No wonder I couldn't find you at Lee Bottom either last weekend. I should
> have
> been looking for the guy with the Jim Beam hat on AND the G-suit. My
> bad---I wish
> I'd have known !
>
> Mike C.
>
> do not archive
>
>
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Subject: | Does anybody know this plane? |
See the attached photo.
Does anybody know this plane? It appears to be a Grega with an oversized
fin / rudder. The wheels are interesting......
I'm trying to find more pictures or who it belongs to.
Greg Cardinal
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Subject: | The Book according to the Fisherman |
AW Mikey -
Why did you go & have to drag the Fisherman's construction methods
into this?
You know Kip you're RIGHT ! He loved using Home Depot, Ace, and Lowe's for all
his a/c construction needs.
I think once he got to the metal fittings though his project came to a quick halt.
He was a character wasn't he ? Good old Ray Axillou. He's probably on some
beach in Belize trying to figure
out a new way to build a mud hut without the mud and straw.
Mike C.
do not archive
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Subject: | Re: Fuel valve control |
The handle on mine is 1/8" thick. I bent it in a U, drilled and tapped for
the 1/4" brass rod. with the two capture nuts and the thread in the U
I think it's not likely to move anywhere. Just make the inside of the U
wide enough for a nut and maybe 1/4" more just because. Oh yeah,
In the final assembly I'll use lock nuts.
Clif
> Hey Clif,
>
> How did you attach the bar (or tube) to the U shaped piece on the valve?
> Just drill a round hole and tighten down with those bolts? Or some kind
> of opening with flat sides and matching flat sides on the bar stock? What
> keeps it from turning when you move the handle up or down?
> jm
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Subject: | Re: Air Camper load rating |
I plan on using the aluminum struts from Carlson, I think the ultimate fail
in tension is 23000 (positive) g's. I think they are strong enough.
Especially
when there are two of them, now how's that for engineering calculus!
Didn't need no caculator on that one.
Russell
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com>wrote:
> jim_markle@mindspring.com>
>
> Agreed, there have actually been a number of "failures" with Pietenpols.
> Just none (that I've ever heard of) due to the design.
>
> I always enjoy pointing out to "non aviation types" that the so called
> "failures" had everything to do with the pilot.
>
> Seems everyone I've ever showed my project to (non aviation types, that is)
> always want to know if it's gonna fall apart in flight...it's nice to be
> able to say "As long as I fly it the way I'm supposed to fly it...no
> problem!"
>
> jm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Dave Abramson <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
> >Sent: Sep 29, 2009 2:16 PM
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
> >
> davea@symbolicdisplays.com>
> >
> >Greetings all!
> >
> >There has been at least 1 catastrophic wing failier on a Pietenpol....
> >
> >In Chet Peeks book..... There is a story of someone doing aerobatics,
> and
> >his Pietenpol fell apart in the air. (back in the 20's or 30's)
> >
> >Just wanted to throw that out there!
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
> >Zuniga
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:52 AM
> >To: Pietenpol List
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Air Camper load rating
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I would be concerned about a -3.5G load on the lift struts
> >on my airplane. Let's use very quick, rough, and conservative
> >numbers and say that the airplane is at gross, using a
> >rough 1100 lb. max gross. Under 3.5G loading, that's 3850 lbs.
> >and if we get really rough and say each of the four lift struts
> >is sharing that load equally (not even close to the actual
> >condition, but let's just say)- that's nearly 1000 lbs. that
> >each of the lift struts sees in compression loading. The jury
> >struts provide resistance against buckling failure in one mode,
> >but even at that- I would feel very iffy about that kind of
> >loading, particularly if there was any buffetting going on.
> >
> >The attach bolts would be fine, even the ones at the wing- if
> >I recall, those are AN4 and in double shear, so with a shear
> >strength of 76000 psi, they should be good for something like
> >7000 lbs. each.
> >
> >I believe I've heard it said that there has never been a
> >catastrophic structural failure of a Piet. Knowing how many of
> >them have flown and are flying, and how many zillions of people
> >have piloted them through all sorts of conditions, I think it's
> >safe to say that you really have to mistreat one to break
> >something structural on them.
> >
> >And that's probably about as close as you're going to get to an
> >engineering analysis of the ultimate load rating on the airframe
> >unless someone wants to model it with a finite element analysis
> >or something sharper than a hardware-store yardstick.
> >
> >Oscar Zuniga
> >Air Camper NX41CC
> >San Antonio, TX
> >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Subject: | Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS |
I heard of building with epoxy however there is another resin thats better
suited for it, It's NOT polyester resin it's some thing else, search in on
the net
and you'll find web sites that tell what to use and what not to and the
weight
of cloth is also important. There's a site where a guy has had gas setting
in a tank for couple of years. humm sound like anybody we know?
Russell
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>wr
ote:
> vinyl ester resin is compatable with av gas
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:36:29 -0500
> > From: timothywillis@earthlink.net
> > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS
> >
> timothywillis@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Clif,
> > I am not asking for my own info, but for others who might be considerin
g
> a fiberglass tank. Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only
> accommodate avgas and mogas, but mogas with ethanol (something we should
> avoid for other reasons, too) just in case we get some, either by necessi
ty
> or ignorance? [I recall the problems some boaters had with ethanol in the
ir
> glass tanks.]
> > Thanks, Tim in central TX
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
> > >Sent: Sep 29, 2009 2:42 AM
> > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: these West Coast guys seem like they have
a
> good sense of humor
> > >
> > >Ribs! forget the ribs. I'm all tanked up! Well, almost.
> > >
> > >Clif
> > >>
> > >> Still with the ribs! What's with you guys and the ribs! I did get 3/
4
> of
> > >> my
> > >> center section built last weekend! (sure wish I had built those ribs
> > >> first!)
> > >>======================
> &g======
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail=AE has ever-growing storage! Don=92t worry about storage limits.
Check
> it out.<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
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Subject: | Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS |
Like all the others have said, Vinylester. I didn't find it excessively
smelly
and the layup went quite smoothly. One thing though, get the resin that's
for laying up layers. There's a finishing resin that oozes out wax as it
cures. The guy at the fiberglass store called it "surfboard resin".
If you haven't done this before it would be wise to do some practice
layup, particularely edges and corners! It doesn't have to be big, a few
inches in area is fine. The more rounded corners and edges the better.
USE PLENTY OF RELEASE WAX ON THE PLUG!!!
Clif
Remember, every drip or blob in a cosmetic area is going to have to be
filed off! :-)
> Clif,
> I am not asking for my own info, but for others who might be considering a
> fiberglass tank. Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only
> accommodate avgas and mogas, but mogas with ethanol (something we should
> avoid for other reasons, too)> Thanks, Tim in central TX
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Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
Gary,
In the last BPA newsletter Bill Rewey talks about dimple tape and his
experiences using it on his props (~10% increase in performance, quieter
operation, less fuel burn, etc.).
The page at http://www.dimpletape.com says you can put the stuff on your
wings, too. It might be worth a try and it's not nearly as noticeable
as VGs.
There's something to this stuff - the following is a research paper on
increasing the L/D (lift over drag) coefficient on a high performance
sailplane by 7-11% in general and by up to 20% in specific speed regions
by placing a deturbulator strip on the wing at the correct location.
This deturbulator creates a "slip layer" a couple of microns thick which
increases the efficiency of the wing:
http://www.sinhatech.com/AIAA-2006.pdf
Now, I'm not one to take food out of an honest man's mouth, but on a
recent foray into a local sign making shop, I noticed that they sold
dimpled adhesive backed vinyl in large rolls for quite a bit less than
$4.95 per foot...
Cheers,
Dan
tengulfromeo wrote:
>
> I recently sealed my elevator gap which improved control response. (I strongly
recommend gap seals on ailerons, rudder and elevator on the Pietenpol).
>
> Just for kicks this weekend I added vortex generators to the underside of my
horizontal stabilizer and definitely noticed improved elevator authority on landing
flare.
>
> Crazy I know, and if they didn't look so darn noticeable and out of character
for an antique, but still it has me thinking........has anyone had experience
with vortex generators on the Piet wing?
>
> Gary
> N10GR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265239#265239
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
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Subject: | Re: Does anybody know this plane? |
Greg,
You're right. That is a Grega with a large tail - in fact, it's the tail off a
J3 Piper Cub. I believe it also has Piper wings. The plane is French (based in
France). Here are a couple of links to some pages with some more photos:
http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=F-PBGT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8221101@N02/with/3522085948/
I did a little Google searching, and found only French websites, and based on my
weak skills in French, I believe the plane had an incident in 2001 where the
left wheel didn't bother to accompany the plane on one flight. The pilot had
to land with only the right wheel. The wheels are from a motorcycle, and the axle
cracked, and snapped off upon take-off. The pilot managed to fly around, and
attract attention to himself and his problem by wagging his wings. The fire
department was called, and he flew around to burn off the fuel. When he landed,
he eventually ground looped, without injury.
Those wheels do look interesting. There was an email address for the owner of the
plane (from a few years ago) on one of the websites I found - but since it's
in France, you'd likely need to "parlez Francais" to get some more info from
the owner.
Bill C.[size=18][/size]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265665#265665
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Subject: | Re: Does anybody know this plane? |
Nice!
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>wrote:
> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> Greg,
>
> You're right. That is a Grega with a large tail - in fact, it's the tail
> off a J3 Piper Cub. I believe it also has Piper wings. The plane is French
> (based in France). Here are a couple of links to some pages with some more
> photos:
> http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=F-PBGT
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8221101@N02/with/3522085948/
>
> I did a little Google searching, and found only French websites, and based
> on my weak skills in French, I believe the plane had an incident in 2001
> where the left wheel didn't bother to accompany the plane on one flight. The
> pilot had to land with only the right wheel. The wheels are from a
> motorcycle, and the axle cracked, and snapped off upon take-off. The pilot
> managed to fly around, and attract attention to himself and his problem by
> wagging his wings. The fire department was called, and he flew around to
> burn off the fuel. When he landed, he eventually ground looped, without
> injury.
>
> Those wheels do look interesting. There was an email address for the owner
> of the plane (from a few years ago) on one of the websites I found - but
> since it's in France, you'd likely need to "parlez Francais" to get some
> more info from the owner.
>
> Bill C.[size=18][/size]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265665#265665
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Does anybody know this plane? |
I don't think the wings are Grega either, what airfoil is that?
russell
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nice!
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>wrote:
>
>> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> You're right. That is a Grega with a large tail - in fact, it's the tail
>> off a J3 Piper Cub. I believe it also has Piper wings. The plane is French
>> (based in France). Here are a couple of links to some pages with some more
>> photos:
>> http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=F-PBGT
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8221101@N02/with/3522085948/
>>
>> I did a little Google searching, and found only French websites, and based
>> on my weak skills in French, I believe the plane had an incident in 2001
>> where the left wheel didn't bother to accompany the plane on one flight. The
>> pilot had to land with only the right wheel. The wheels are from a
>> motorcycle, and the axle cracked, and snapped off upon take-off. The pilot
>> managed to fly around, and attract attention to himself and his problem by
>> wagging his wings. The fire department was called, and he flew around to
>> burn off the fuel. When he landed, he eventually ground looped, without
>> injury.
>>
>> Those wheels do look interesting. There was an email address for the owner
>> of the plane (from a few years ago) on one of the websites I found - but
>> since it's in France, you'd likely need to "parlez Francais" to get some
>> more info from the owner.
>>
>> Bill C.[size=18][/size]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265665#265665
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 53
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Subject: | Re: Air Camper load rating |
Russell,
What on earth are you talking about?
Aluminum struts rated for 23000 g's !!!
I guess that would apply to ANY aircraft they get used on?
I'm going to assume that you're joking around - but on the off-chance that you're
not...
Other Piet builders have successfully used the aluminum streamline struts sold
by Carlson, but I think you're overstating the strength by "more than a bit".
Here's a link to the company website:
http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html
I assume you're referring to the Ultimate strengths listed on the Carlson website.
For starters, you want to base any design calculations on Yield strength as
opposed to Ultimate strength (Yield is when the part will deform (stretch) and
not return to it's original state, whereas Ultimate strength is when the strut
snaps in two, and your wings fold up, and you plummet to the ground). Secondly,
those strengths are listed in PSIs (pounds per square inch) not Gs - Believe
it or not, those two things are NOT related.
Bill C.
PS No need to boil the aluminum struts.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265670#265670
Message 54
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Subject: | Re: Air Camper load rating |
Yes I meant 2300 lbs not G's, have you heard anything negative about these
struts? I was was planning on using the cabane struts they sell also.
Russell
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>wrote:
> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> Russell,
> What on earth are you talking about?
> Aluminum struts rated for 23000 g's !!!
>
> I guess that would apply to ANY aircraft they get used on?
>
> I'm going to assume that you're joking around - but on the off-chance that
> you're not...
>
> Other Piet builders have successfully used the aluminum streamline struts
> sold by Carlson, but I think you're overstating the strength by "more than a
> bit".
>
> Here's a link to the company website:
> http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html
>
> I assume you're referring to the Ultimate strengths listed on the Carlson
> website. For starters, you want to base any design calculations on Yield
> strength as opposed to Ultimate strength (Yield is when the part will deform
> (stretch) and not return to it's original state, whereas Ultimate strength
> is when the strut snaps in two, and your wings fold up, and you plummet to
> the ground). Secondly, those strengths are listed in PSIs (pounds per square
> inch) not Gs - Believe it or not, those two things are NOT related.
>
> Bill C.
>
> PS No need to boil the aluminum struts.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265670#265670
>
>
Message 55
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Subject: | Re: Does anybody know this plane? |
I think I understand why the axle broke, the larger diameters wheels
create more side loads than the smaller wheels normally used in that
configuration. Where as the straight axle will take the larger diameter
wheels the J-3 type landing gear will not take as well.
The increased in diameter acts as a lever. However bush pilots
used those large tires up north.
Russell
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think the wings are Grega either, what airfoil is that?
>
> russell
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Nice!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>wrote:
>>
>>> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>>>
>>> Greg,
>>>
>>> You're right. That is a Grega with a large tail - in fact, it's the tail
>>> off a J3 Piper Cub. I believe it also has Piper wings. The plane is French
>>> (based in France). Here are a couple of links to some pages with some more
>>> photos:
>>> http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=F-PBGT
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8221101@N02/with/3522085948/
>>>
>>> I did a little Google searching, and found only French websites, and
>>> based on my weak skills in French, I believe the plane had an incident in
>>> 2001 where the left wheel didn't bother to accompany the plane on one
>>> flight. The pilot had to land with only the right wheel. The wheels are from
>>> a motorcycle, and the axle cracked, and snapped off upon take-off. The pilot
>>> managed to fly around, and attract attention to himself and his problem by
>>> wagging his wings. The fire department was called, and he flew around to
>>> burn off the fuel. When he landed, he eventually ground looped, without
>>> injury.
>>>
>>> Those wheels do look interesting. There was an email address for the
>>> owner of the plane (from a few years ago) on one of the websites I found -
>>> but since it's in France, you'd likely need to "parlez Francais" to get some
>>> more info from the owner.
>>>
>>> Bill C.[size=18][/size]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265665#265665
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Subject: | Re: these West Coast guys -- FUEL TANKS |
Makes me wonder if there is something you could coat epoxy lay up with to
improve it's performance, I coated two motorcycles a 81 BMW gas tank
and a Concours with POR-15 they claim that not even carb cleaner will
break it down. So far they are holding up.
russell
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:18 PM, Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Like all the others have said, Vinylester. I didn't find it excessively
> smelly
> and the layup went quite smoothly. One thing though, get the resin that's
> for laying up layers. There's a finishing resin that oozes out wax as it
> cures. The guy at the fiberglass store called it "surfboard resin".
>
> If you haven't done this before it would be wise to do some practice
> layup, particularely edges and corners! It doesn't have to be big, a few
> inches in area is fine. The more rounded corners and edges the better.
>
> USE PLENTY OF RELEASE WAX ON THE PLUG!!!
>
> Clif
>
> Remember, every drip or blob in a cosmetic area is going to have to be
> filed off! :-)
>
>
> Clif,
>> I am not asking for my own info, but for others who might be considering a
>> fiberglass tank. Is there an epoxy and glass combo that will not only
>> accommodate avgas and mogas, but mogas with ethanol (something we should
>> avoid for other reasons, too)> Thanks, Tim in central TX
>>
>
>
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