---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/04/09: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:34 AM - Plywood web spar (Steve Glass) 2. 05:23 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Jack) 3. 05:51 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Peter W Johnson) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: Push/Pull on elevator (tkreiner) 5. 06:34 AM - Re: reinforced "end" ribs (Robert Ray) 6. 06:44 AM - Re: Leading edge fillerstrips (Gene Rambo) 7. 06:47 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Robert Ray) 8. 06:47 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Robert Ray) 9. 07:01 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Doug Dever) 10. 07:26 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Robert Ray) 11. 07:42 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (amsafetyc@aol.com) 12. 07:46 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Dave and Connie) 13. 07:47 AM - Re: Leading edge fillerstrips (gcardinal) 14. 08:20 AM - Re: Leading edge fillerstrips (Gary Boothe) 15. 08:52 AM - One vs Three piece wing (Oscar Zuniga) 16. 08:54 AM - Re: Plywood web spar (Owen Davies) 17. 09:04 AM - throttle setup (Oscar Zuniga) 18. 09:08 AM - Re: Plywood web spar-- the right plywoods (Tim Willis) 19. 09:10 AM - Re: Leading edge fillerstrips (Paul N. Peckham) 20. 09:18 AM - Re: throttle setup (Tim Willis) 21. 09:19 AM - Re: Riblett 612 Leading Edge (Matt Redmond) 22. 09:21 AM - Re: Leading edge fillerstrips (Don Emch) 23. 09:39 AM - Re: throttle setup (Don Emch) 24. 11:40 AM - Re: leading edge (Jack Phillips) 25. 12:43 PM - Re: Plywood web spar-- the right plywoods (Owen Davies) 26. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Riblett 612 Leading Edge (Jack) 27. 01:11 PM - Douwe's progress report (Douwe Blumberg) 28. 02:19 PM - Re: leading edge .perfect (jorge lizarraga) 29. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Push/Pull on elevator (Peter W Johnson) 30. 02:29 PM - Re: throttle setup; (jorge lizarraga) 31. 03:02 PM - Fw: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... (shad bell) 32. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... (Gary Boothe) 33. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... (Gene & Tammy) 34. 05:00 PM - Re: reinforced "end" ribs (Bill Church) 35. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... (H RULE) 36. 06:03 PM - Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... (Don Emch) 37. 06:42 PM - Re: Riblett 612 Leading Edge (amsafetyc@aol.com) 38. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: reinforced "end" ribs (Clif Dawson) 39. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: reinforced "end" ribs (Robert Ray) 40. 08:29 PM - Re: Plywood web spar-- the right plywoods (Robert Ray) 41. 08:34 PM - Re: Re: reinforced "end" ribs (Robert Ray) 42. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: reinforced "end" ribs (Robert Ray) 43. 09:19 PM - my project tribute (long) (TOM MICHELLE BRANT) 44. 10:04 PM - Vertical intercostals in ribs (stephen labash) 45. 10:08 PM - Re: my project tribute (long) () 46. 11:03 PM - Re: Riblett 612 Leading Edge (Clif Dawson) 47. 11:51 PM - one/three piece wing (Dallas) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:26 AM PST US From: Steve Glass Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Hi Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would pr obably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The p ly would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work woul d result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably comparab le weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. Steve In Maine ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:38 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Steve, I did just that and probably would not do it next time. The advantages you mention are correct. The additional work and time is tremendous. Scarfing 3/8th material is not much fun. It took some practice to get it perfect. I did mine 10 to 1 and with some coaching from my TA am adding doublers at the joints. Mine are capped with Douglas fir. Alls things considered, I would use =BE inch Sitka. The archive has plenty of info on it. Attached is a sketch showing mine, additional pictures are on my site and http://westcoastpiet.com/. Good luck, Jack www.textors.com Hi Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would probably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The ply would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work would result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably comparable weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. Steve In Maine 10/03/09 06:20:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:27 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Jack/Steve, Looking at your sketch I notice you used an =93I=94 beam construction. I used the =93U=94 beam method. I made up a jig to scarfe the ply and after a bit of practice got quite proficient at it. There are some pictures on my web site of the jig and showing a circular saw doing the work. The spar infill blocking was spruce with ply on top. Jigging the spar when building can result in a dead straight spar, rather than relying on the quality of the spar material. I bought all my spruce from AS&S and it was cheaper to get the cap strips rather than complete spar material. I would certainly do it again. I have demonstrated the strength of the spar with a couple of off runway excursions. I purchased a set of UK PFA approved plans which included the made up spar amongst other mods. Go for whatever suits you. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Sunday, 4 October 2009 11:17 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Steve, I did just that and probably would not do it next time. The advantages you mention are correct. The additional work and time is tremendous. Scarfing 3/8th material is not much fun. It took some practice to get it perfect. I did mine 10 to 1 and with some coaching from my TA am adding doublers at the joints. Mine are capped with Douglas fir. Alls things considered, I would use =BE inch Sitka. The archive has plenty of info on it. Attached is a sketch showing mine, additional pictures are on my site and http://westcoastpiet.com/. Good luck, Jack www.textors.com Hi Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would probably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The ply would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work would result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably comparable weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. Steve In Maine http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution 270.14.3/2411 - Release Date: 10/03/09 06:20:00 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/Pull on elevator From: "tkreiner" Peter, You website, and explanations are great. Thanks for adding all the detail to help all of us newbies. TK -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266375#266375 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: reinforced "end" ribs From: Robert Ray I didn't say I was going to prepare for a ground loop, I said I've seen people build that way, I have already flown a 7AC 50 hours and although I could make a mistake it hasn't been a problem, I do know of a case where a man took his daughter for a ride in his open cockpit plane and they burned alive after crashing on landing. Now negative I don't think looking at accident reports is negative it's prudent. WITH A LITTLE MORE FIRE PREVENTION MAYBE they could of been saved. Do you have children? do you want your plane to be fire prooff as possible if you take one for a ride? No I'm going to fly my Piet one day and I'm going to do everything I can to keep from getting killed in it. Actually that's not negative that's positive. Wanting to live is a very positive outlook, On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Bill Church wrote: > > Sounds like you're planning ahead for ground loops, and recently you posted > a message that indicated you were planning for an inflight engine fire. > Why such a negative outlook? > > Bill C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert Ray > Sent: Sat 03/10/2009 11:05 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: reinforced "end" ribs > > I've seen people reinforce the wing tip where as a ground loop is less > likely to damage and also the end ribs need extra rigidity to keep the > fabric from > pulling them, there is info I think on this web site and west coast, > I remeber one guy built his wing tip rib out of ash, he said incase he > ground loops. > I'm thinking of taking okume 1/8 over to the next rib on the inward one. > or 1/16 okume with 1/4 runners. > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 7:38 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT > wrote: > > > I've seen a lot of people mention to add 1/16"th ply to reinforce the end > > ribs of each wing panel and center section. I don't see this anywhere in > > the plans - is it only to terminate the covering or is there another > > reason. The plans call for extra braces... Also, it calls for 1 1/4" x > > 1/16"thk. ply to be added to the top of the center section and inboard > end > > ribs. The center section plans call out 3/16" thk. capstrip in this area > - > > my ribs are all 1/4 x 1/2. Will adding 1/16" to the top be a problem? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tom B. > > Brooklyn Park, MN > > working on the center section > > > > * > > > > * > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:28 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips no, it is for the whole wing. I don't even have plans for the 3-piece wing, everything I have is for the one piece wing. The filler strips go between every rib to give the plywood something to glue to on the aft end, and I can understand why. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips I believe the filler strip shown on the plans is for the center section only, not the entire wing. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips well, the filler strips are in the plans, and otherwise there is nothing for the rear of the plywood to nail to other than the ribs. For me, leaving it out is not an option, I think it would "buckle" between the ribs even forward of the spar and I do not think that would look good. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips Gene, The filler strips that you mention...that's what I did. Later I read that a few of the fellows said not to do this, because of what Greg C. said. I contemplated cutting it away, but after much contemplation decided to leave them. So we shall see if this was a mistake or not when it flies. I was really unsure which way to go. Any flight reports out there to substantiate? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar From: Robert Ray One more thing I WOULD not use okume for this one, just my opinion. On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Robert Ray wrote: > Yes if you go to the West Coast Piet site you'll find that per weight the > I-beam and the box beam more efficient, the example's given are > however with plywood that has some grain running at 45 degrees, > This plywoodod is expensive, for my project I will however use Baltic > birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains > as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both > sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, > it is also important to scarf the plywood since the butting of the joints > makes a weak joint. > There will be two splices in the spar webbing plywood on my wing > the heart of the 7.5 foot ply wood board cut out diagonally will be > centered with the lift strut attachment. where to move > the splices to less stressed areas. > The two caps the fit the top of the spar will not come from the same > board but an attempt to disperse any weakness across it's plane. > The bottom cap will be 1"x1" minus the thickness of the plywood > and the top will be 1 & 1/4 minus the thickness of the plywood. > But then I'm not an engineer I can't recommend this is correct > it's just what I will use. > I probably won't save any weight but in my untested opinion > should be pretty strong. > The Baltic birch is cheap when compared to certified wood. > It is so cheap also that I will test one to destruction. > This is fun to me the build is fun, I have a plane to fly now I want > to have fun building. The plywood is 5' by 5 ' since however > the center will be cut out diagonally the three center pieces > should be plenty to do a wing maybe a wing and a half. > > > Russell > > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Steve Glass wrote: > >> Hi >> Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie >> Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would >> probably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The >> ply would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work >> would result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably >> comparable weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. >> >> Steve In Maine >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar From: Robert Ray Yes if you go to the West Coast Piet site you'll find that per weight the I-beam and the box beam more efficient, the example's given are however with plywood that has some grain running at 45 degrees, This plywoodod is expensive, for my project I will however use Baltic birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, it is also important to scarf the plywood since the butting of the joints makes a weak joint. There will be two splices in the spar webbing plywood on my wing the heart of the 7.5 foot ply wood board cut out diagonally will be centered with the lift strut attachment. where to move the splices to less stressed areas. The two caps the fit the top of the spar will not come from the same board but an attempt to disperse any weakness across it's plane. The bottom cap will be 1"x1" minus the thickness of the plywood and the top will be 1 & 1/4 minus the thickness of the plywood. But then I'm not an engineer I can't recommend this is correct it's just what I will use. I probably won't save any weight but in my untested opinion should be pretty strong. The Baltic birch is cheap when compared to certified wood. It is so cheap also that I will test one to destruction. This is fun to me the build is fun, I have a plane to fly now I want to have fun building. The plywood is 5' by 5 ' since however the center will be cut out diagonally the three center pieces should be plenty to do a wing maybe a wing and a half. Russell On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Steve Glass wrote: > Hi > Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie > Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would > probably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The > ply would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work > would result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably > comparable weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. > > Steve In Maine > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:03 AM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar I would also use 45deg ply. I considerd it due to cost as I have more time than money=2C but I'm going to use 3/4 spruce for siplicity. I like simpl e Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar From: rray032003@gmail.com One more thing I WOULD not use okume for this one=2C just my opinion. On Sun=2C Oct 4=2C 2009 at 9:10 AM=2C Robert Ray wro te: Yes if you go to the West Coast Piet site you'll find that per weight the I-beam and the box beam more efficient=2C the example's given are however with plywood that has some grain running at 45 degrees=2C This plywoodod is expensive=2C for my project I will however use Baltic birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both sides in an I beam fashion=2C the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch=2C it is also important to scarf the plywood since the butting of the joints makes a weak joint. There will be two splices in the spar webbing plywood on my wing the heart of the 7.5 foot ply wood board cut out diagonally will be centered with the lift strut attachment. where to move the splices to less stressed areas. The two caps the fit the top of the spar will not come from the same board but an attempt to disperse any weakness across it's plane. The bottom cap will be 1"x1" minus the thickness of the plywood and the top will be 1 & 1/4 minus the thickness of the plywood. But then I'm not an engineer I can't recommend this is correct it's just what I will use. I probably won't save any weight but in my untested opinion should be pretty strong. The Baltic birch is cheap when compared to certified wood. It is so cheap also that I will test one to destruction. This is fun to me the build is fun=2C I have a plane to fly now I want to have fun building. The plywood is 5' by 5 ' since however the center will be cut out diagonally the three center pieces should be plenty to do a wing maybe a wing and a half. Russell On Sun=2C Oct 4=2C 2009 at 7:28 AM=2C Steve Glass w rote: Hi Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would pr obably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The p ly would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work woul d result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably comparab le weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. Steve In Maine " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.=0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar From: Robert Ray It shouldn't take that long to put a few scarfs and splices into the ply I'm scarfing with epoxy thicken with lots of silica, I know some boat builders won't use epoxy in plywood scarfs but I think I can manage it. Again go to the wood advisories on west coast piet. Read the complete article on web spars. And a big thank you to the ones that have provided this excellent help page! Russell On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Doug Dever wrote: > I would also use 45deg ply. I considerd it due to cost as I have more time > than money, but I'm going to use 3/4 spruce for siplicity. I like simple > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 09:13:19 -0400 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar > From: rray032003@gmail.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > One more thing I WOULD not use okume for this one, > just my opinion. > > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Robert Ray wrote: > > Yes if you go to the West Coast Piet site you'll find that per weight > the > I-beam and the box beam more efficient, the example's given are > however with plywood that has some grain running at 45 degrees, > This plywoodod is expensive, for my project I will however use Baltic > birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains > as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both > sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, > it is also important to scarf the plywood since the butting of the joints > makes a weak joint. > There will be two splices in the spar webbing plywood on my wing > the heart of the 7.5 foot ply wood board cut out diagonally will be > centered with the lift strut attachment. where to move > the splices to less stressed areas. > The two caps the fit the top of the spar will not come from the same > board but an attempt to disperse any weakness across it's plane. > The bottom cap will be 1"x1" minus the thickness of the plywood > and the top will be 1 & 1/4 minus the thickness of the plywood. > But then I'm not an engineer I can't recommend this is correct > it's just what I will use. > I probably won't save any weight but in my untested opinion > should be pretty strong. > The Baltic birch is cheap when compared to certified wood. > It is so cheap also that I will test one to destruction. > This is fun to me the build is fun, I have a plane to fly now I want > to have fun building. The plywood is 5' by 5 ' since however > the center will be cut out diagonally the three center pieces > should be plenty to do a wing maybe a wing and a half. > > > Russell > > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Steve Glass wrote: > > Hi > Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie > Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would > probably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The > ply would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work > would result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably > comparable weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. > > Steve In Maine > > * > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > ------------------------------ > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Ge85/direct/01/' target='_new'>Sign up now. > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar From: amsafetyc@aol.com I have no scarfs in mine, I got 16' lengths of 1x12" poplar and cut my spars out of that. It too took a good bit or work getting straight piece out of them but they did yield some nice 1 inch spar material. Once cut and angled the top edge to match the rib, I mounted them on to my bench jig and routed them out. Lumber that long from the mill does take some work to get the hook amd twist out of. That gave me the full finished dimension spars. Lots of work but got some nice straight un- spliced spars to work with. John ------Original Message------ From: Steve Glass Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Oct 4, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Hi Has anybody considered the plywood spar with spruce caps as used by Aussie Peter. It seems the quality would be more consistent and the cost would probably be less than getting a long length off spar material shipped. The ply would need to be spliced but even though it migh be a bit more work would result in a stronger and with the smaller web thickness probably comparable weight. Would like to hear your thoughts. Steve In Maine Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:41 AM PST US From: Dave and Connie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Russell, Scarfing plywood with thickened epoxy is a very standard practice in kayak building. I used Raka epoxy and fumed silica when I built my Chesapeake 17. That one used 4mm plywood so it was much easier to cut the scarfs by hand than it would be in 3/8" or thicker ply but I think that I could do it with just a couple of practice pieces to the back in form.. I marked a couple of lines, clamped the ply to the edge of a table, and cut the joints with a plane. Dave Robert Ray wrote: > It shouldn't take that long to put a few scarfs and splices into the ply > I'm scarfing with epoxy thicken with lots of silica, I know some boat > builders won't use epoxy in plywood scarfs but I think I can manage it. > Again go to the wood advisories on west coast piet. Read the complete > article on web spars. > > And a big thank you to the ones that have provided this excellent help > page! > > > Russell > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:08 AM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips Hi Gene, I have the 1933 / 1934 plans for the one-piece wing and the filler strips are only shown for the center of the wing where the fuel tank is placed. The filler strips are on both the front and rear spars to keep the fabric fair as it covers the fuel tank. The plywood is not a structural component and only needs to be attached to the ribs. The aft end of the plywood needs to be able to be pulled down between the ribs as the fabric is tightened to prevent a sharp transition. 200+ hours on NX18235 (Pietenpol airfoil) with no filler strips and good flying qualities. Cheers, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips no, it is for the whole wing. I don't even have plans for the 3-piece wing, everything I have is for the one piece wing. The filler strips go between every rib to give the plywood something to glue to on the aft end, and I can understand why. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips I believe the filler strip shown on the plans is for the center section only, not the entire wing. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips well, the filler strips are in the plans, and otherwise there is nothing for the rear of the plywood to nail to other than the ribs. For me, leaving it out is not an option, I think it would "buckle" between the ribs even forward of the spar and I do not think that would look good. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips Gene, The filler strips that you mention...that's what I did. Later I read that a few of the fellows said not to do this, because of what Greg C. said. I contemplated cutting it away, but after much contemplation decided to leave them. So we shall see if this was a mistake or not when it flies. I was really unsure which way to go. Any flight reports out there to substantiate? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:08 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips My plans are dated, "1937", but the wing page is dated, "3-3-34". It shows "Filler strips" where the fuel tank is located (one piece wing), but nowhere else. I'm building the 3-piece wing, which provides a supplemental page for the center section only. It is dated, "January 10, 1975," and revised on, "March 13, 1982." It shows no filler strips at all in the center section, or the adjoining wing parts (not very much shown). The filler strips seemed necessary for the center section with fuel tank, so I put them in. I agree with Greg that the transition will be much smoother without filler strips on the wings (they are not shown anyhow)..my 2 cents.. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gcardinal Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips Hi Gene, I have the 1933 / 1934 plans for the one-piece wing and the filler strips are only shown for the center of the wing where the fuel tank is placed. The filler strips are on both the front and rear spars to keep the fabric fair as it covers the fuel tank. The plywood is not a structural component and only needs to be attached to the ribs. The aft end of the plywood needs to be able to be pulled down between the ribs as the fabric is tightened to prevent a sharp transition. 200+ hours on NX18235 (Pietenpol airfoil) with no filler strips and good flying qualities. Cheers, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips no, it is for the whole wing. I don't even have plans for the 3-piece wing, everything I have is for the one piece wing. The filler strips go between every rib to give the plywood something to glue to on the aft end, and I can understand why. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips I believe the filler strip shown on the plans is for the center section only, not the entire wing. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips well, the filler strips are in the plans, and otherwise there is nothing for the rear of the plywood to nail to other than the ribs. For me, leaving it out is not an option, I think it would "buckle" between the ribs even forward of the spar and I do not think that would look good. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge fillerstrips Gene, The filler strips that you mention...that's what I did. Later I read that a few of the fellows said not to do this, because of what Greg C. said. I contemplated cutting it away, but after much contemplation decided to leave them. So we shall see if this was a mistake or not when it flies. I was really unsure which way to go. Any flight reports out there to substantiate? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:01 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: One vs Three piece wing Jim wrote- >Mine with the 3 piece and 65 Cont. weighs 607# Excellent! I know I could get 41CC down to that weight. It's got a vertical speed indicator, gyro turn and bank, and venturi, along with a few other things that add weight but could easily be dispensed with. Six hundred pounds is not a bad target to shoot for with an A65 on the nose. The Piet manual shows an empty weight with the water- cooled Ford of 610 lbs. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:46 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar Among other comments, Robert Ray wrote: > ... for my project I will however use Baltic > birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains > as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both > sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, ... That should work wonderfully, right up until the plywood delaminates. Baltic birch ply is high quality stuff, but nearly everything you'll find in the U.S. is interior grade and much less water resistant than aircraft or marine ply. I say "nearly" just to be cautious. I've never heard of any that isn't interior grade, but if I say it doesn't exist someone probably will come up with an obscure counter-example. It might be safe enough if encapsulated in epoxy, but that would erode a lot of the savings. And there would still be this worried little voice in the back of my head every time I flew with Baltic birch spars. Just out of curiosity, you might run the numbers on okoume. The next size up could be strong enough without adding too much weight or cost. Owen ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:06 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup Jorge; I think the throttle that is shown in the plans is about as simple as you can get. One thing that would be an improvement is to link the front and rear throttle levers with a rod or tube, then carry a Bowden cable forward to the carb from the front throttle. I've seen pictures of that setup on more than one Piet but I don't remember whose airplane had it. The last ones I saw were of a really nice, clean, simple cockpit with beautifully varnished plywood cockpit; I'm no wood expert but it looked like birch ply (blonde color), dark hardwood knobs on the throttles. 41CC has the pilot's throttle up near the cockpit coaming with the pivot at the bottom; upside-down from what the plans show. I like that setup since it gives more room down in the cockpit but when the weather is cold, it puts your hand almost out in the wind. I can post a photo of the throttle if you are interested. And the front throttle is just a knob attached to the inner wire of the Bowden cable with bug nuts to secure it. PS: "Cold", as defined in Texas, is anything below about 80F. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:28 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar-- the right plywoods Owen/Robert, You have to really LOOK for marine/aero plywood, even at specialty lumber sources. Of course, Wicks and AS&S stock the right stuff. Any remote source usually means cutting for shipping-- likely into 8 foot strips, maybe under 2 feet wide, if UPS shipping. Of course, those dimensions may work well for you, considering that you need under 6 inches tall for spars, and will be scarfing two pieces to make about 14 foot R&L wings. Here in Austin, TX, we can get marine ply at Fine Lumber. I bought 1.5mm okume marine ply for leading edge from Boulter Plywood in greater Boston, MA. (Fine did not have 1.5mm plywood.) Boulter cut mine into 2 ft. by 8 ft. and shipped by truck to my door. The driver rolled it into my garage. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Owen Davies >Sent: Oct 4, 2009 10:54 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar > > >Among other comments, Robert Ray wrote: >> ... for my project I will however use Baltic >> birch that's ripped diagonally across the board putting all the grains >> as the truss of a bridge and use Douglas fir to cap strip both >> sides in an I beam fashion, the web will be 1/4'' Baltic birch, ... >That should work wonderfully, right up until the plywood delaminates. >Baltic birch ply is high quality stuff, but nearly everything you'll >find in the U.S. is interior grade and much less water resistant than >aircraft or marine ply. > >I say "nearly" just to be cautious. I've never heard of any that isn't >interior grade, but if I say it doesn't exist someone probably will come >up with an obscure counter-example. > >It might be safe enough if encapsulated in epoxy, but that would erode a >lot of the savings. And there would still be this worried little voice >in the back of my head every time I flew with Baltic birch spars. > >Just out of curiosity, you might run the numbers on okoume. The next >size up could be strong enough without adding too much weight or cost. > >Owen > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Leading edge fillerstrips From: "Paul N. Peckham" For the benefit of those who might not have seen it, the very first issue of the Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter (July 1983), talks about about the use of filler strips. Here is what was written: "In covering the top leading edge of your wing, don't be tempted to use aluminum, nor to provide a strip to hold up the rear of the plywood between the ribs. That's how it should be - unsupported. You'll find that method, which is shown on the plans, provides a smooth airfoil, without the abrupt change in surface you get by having that rear edge rigid." Sage advice from the past. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266405#266405 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:52 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup Jorge & Oscar, Corky's second project (now mine) is as Oscar described-- the two throttles are connected by small diameter steel push-pull tubes, with a Bowden cable from the front pit to the carb. The handles are on top. I plan for a left glove (leather, no lace, Michael Jackson) to keep 100 mph June bugs and chilling air off my knuckles. Usually chilling air is not a major factor in TX, or Oscar would have fixed that. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Oscar Zuniga >Sent: Oct 4, 2009 11:01 AM >To: Pietenpol List >Subject: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup > > > >Jorge; I think the throttle that is shown in the >plans is about as simple as you can get. One thing >that would be an improvement is to link the front >and rear throttle levers with a rod or tube, then >carry a Bowden cable forward to the carb from the >front throttle. I've seen pictures of that setup >on more than one Piet but I don't remember whose >airplane had it. The last ones I saw were of a >really nice, clean, simple cockpit with beautifully >varnished plywood cockpit; I'm no wood expert but >it looked like birch ply (blonde color), dark hardwood >knobs on the throttles. > >41CC has the pilot's throttle up near the cockpit >coaming with the pivot at the bottom; upside-down >from what the plans show. I like that setup since >it gives more room down in the cockpit but when the >weather is cold, it puts your hand almost out in >the wind. I can post a photo of the throttle if you >are interested. And the front throttle is just a >knob attached to the inner wire of the Bowden cable >with bug nuts to secure it. > >PS: "Cold", as defined in Texas, is anything >below about 80F. > >Oscar Zuniga >Air Camper NX41CC >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 Leading Edge From: Matt Redmond >>>my ex-wife cut the work bench in half<<< No offense, but the best place for some people is floating face-down in a lake. Do not archive. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Robert Ray wrote: > Yes I went through a divorce and ended up in an apartment, my ex-wife cut > the work bench > in half I also loss my job, now I have a work bench, a joband garage again, > the ribs come down > from the my mom's attic and I am now starting again exactly where I left > off. > > Russell > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Ken Howe wrote: >> >> >> When I originally drew out the section (using DesignCAD) at the front spar >> location it measured a little over 5 1/4" tall between the capstrips. So my >> block just takes up that extra 1/2" or so. >> >> For the leading edge, if I can't find a hand rail that looks right I >> figured I use the classical method. I'll rib a couple angled cuts from >> appropriately sized strips of pine, fir, hemlock or whatever I can find, >> then hand plane them to rounded sections. Making those long curled shavings >> sounds like it might be kind of satisfying. I enjoy working with hand tools >> when it's appropriate - planing, OK; making those long angled rip cuts, time >> for power tools. >> >> --Ken >> >> Dave and Connie wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Ken, >>> >>> I figured that the original size spars would work with blocks. >>> >>> What are you planning to do for the leading edge? It looks like it would >>> be a little tall for Mike Cuy's banister stock. >>> >>> Cave >>> >>> >>> Ken Howe wrote: >>>> >>>> I am building my 612 ribs to use the standard 4 3/4" tall spars. The >>>> rear >>>> spar fits in just right, with a little space for a wedge to be inserted >>>> between the top of the spar and the rib. The front of the rib is, as you >>>> note, quite a bit taller where the front spar goes. I've designed my >>>> truss >>>> to insert a small block under the spar so that the space betwen the >>>> block >>>> and the top capstrip is 4 3/4". I'd posted a few pictures a month or 2 >>>> back >>>> to the list so you might find them in the archives. I don't have any of >>>> my >>>> pictures here at work, so I've whipped out a quick and dirty sketch to >>>> show >>>> what I've done. >>>> >>>> On the Riblett section, there is more of a curve in the leading edge of >>>> the >>>> bottom capstrip. I didn't feel comfortable dry fitting my strips into >>>> the >>>> jig with that much bend, so I am pre-bending the bottom strips similar >>>> to >>>> what is done for the top strip. >>>> >>>> - >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" >>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> ==== >>> >>> >>> > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Leading edge fillerstrips From: "Don Emch" Before covering, the plywood does seem a little strange in that it is unsupported without the filler strips on there. After covering though, you can see why it is done that way. You get a really nice transition from plywood leading edge to open area. I'm currently covering Aeronca Chief wings. They have aluminum leading edges. There are no filler strips between the ribs on that leading edge either. There are flanges though, bent into the aluminum though that are intended to stiffen that back edge. Those flanges do stiffen it enough to create somewhat of a sharp transition. I understand the idea of maintaining the airfoil shape, which is what the intention is for the Aeronca, but I think that does not need to be the intention for the Piet. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266409#266409 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: throttle setup From: "Don Emch" I did mine like the plans show. It seems to be at about the right height for me to use my thigh as an arm rest. The rod is just a 1/4" steel rod that is threaded at each end with a 1/4-28 die. There is no lever in the front cockpit, it just connects to a Bowden cable. When a front passenger is flying they just grab onto the rod and control the throttle that way. I was concerned about having a lever up there that could get caught on a passenger's clothing, jacket or arm and could limit my use of it. It could happen and they might not even know they are hung up on it. I'm very leary of having stuff up front that can be disturbed by unknowing passengers. Here is a shot of the throttle... http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_093.JPG Another shot at the front where it connects to the bowden cable. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_096.JPG I had a little clearance issue so I had to file a little bit of the gusset away, which can be seen in that second shot. I need to go back in there and clean that up and get a little varnish on there. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266412#266412 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:01 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge Gene, As others have already indicated, the filler strips are at least unnecessary, and are possibly detrimental. As for using nailing strips to hold the plywood in place while the glue cures, that is exactly what I did - a layer of waxed paper over the plywood, then a thin strip of scrap spruce with nails driven through the spruce, the plywood and into the ribs and leading edge. Once the glue had cured, I peeled off the nailing strips and waxed paper and was done. The small gaps between panels was filled in with PolyFiber's "SuperFil" and sanded smooth. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 6:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: leading edge I KNOW this has been discussed, but a search of the archives does not turn up an answer to my exact question. I am ready to install the plywood on my leading edge. (OK, let's get terminology out of the way here. The very front piece I am calling the "nose piece." That, together with the plywood on the top side back to the spar forms the "leading edge." On the top of the spar between the ribs are the "filler strips") Since the plans don't specify, I made the filler strips 1/2" wide and glued them flush with the front face of the spar (for several reasons that I won't go into here) Because they follow the curve of the top capstrip, they are about 3/8" tall at the rear. OK, the plans say for the plywood to be 9" wide. Even overlapping the ply over the nose piece 1/2", the ply goes about 3/4" beyond the back of the filler strip. I don't have a problem with that, it probably helps fair the fabric in, but I was wondering what most of you do. Do any of you cut the ply to end at the back of the filler strip? Seems like that would make the edge pretty sharp for the fabric to follow. The next question is the sequence of glueing it on. I am planning on using nail strips to hold it down to the nose piece. Just wondering whether to glue/nail to the spar filler first and then bend down, or the other way around, or am I worrying too much?? All this being said, I just found a place in Mass where I bought my 1/16" okume plywood. The 4x8 sheet was $27, the first two cuts were free. Cutting it into 9" pieces took 5 cuts, so for around $30 plus shipping, I had my leading edge material. Can't think of the name now, but contact me offline and I can give it to anyone who is interested. Gene ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:09 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar-- the right plywoods Tim Willis wrote: > You have to really LOOK for marine/aero plywood, even at specialty lumber sources. Happily, I live on the east coast of Florida. Marine plywood, okoume or otherwise, is pretty easy to find. Marine okoume is what I meant, of course. It has a long history in airplanes. A lot of French homebuilts have used it, including the older Jodels. The One Design still calls for it, though it appears to be limited to the wing skin; the spar is laminated from Doug fir or spruce. Complaints I've seen say that it is dimensionally unstable, susceptible to rot and fatigue (?), and may not meet any particular standard, so that some sheets might have areas of bad grain runout overlapping in all the plies. That last should not be a problem in anything that meets BS1088. I would tend to trust Bruynzeel, which I believe does. The "close enough for government work" analysis seems to be that its strength characteristics are like those of mahogany ply. In 2004, Shelman (found through the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20031014012429/http://shelmanusa.com/SpecShelmarine.cfm) listed the following properties for its Shelmarine okoume plywood: Density: 420-520 kg/M3 Property lb/in2 Ultimate tensile strength 4350 Ultimate bending strength 5800 Ultimate shearing strength following thickness direction 435 parallel to the veneer plies 1160 Modulus of elasticity 580K Bending/tension permissable load 1885 More than anyone probably wanted to know.... > I bought 1.5mm okume marine ply for leading edge from Boulter Plywood in greater Boston, MA. The perfect material for the purpose, IMHO. And Boulter's price is right, or was the last time I looked. Owen ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:31 PM PST US From: Jack Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 Leading Edge Matt, I won't dignify your statement with a comment, Jack Do not archive Sent from my iPhone On Oct 4, 2009, at 11:18, Matt Redmond wrote: > > > >>>> my ex-wife cut the work bench in half<<< > > No offense, but the best place for some people is floating face-down > in a lake. > > Do not archive. > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Robert Ray > wrote: >> Yes I went through a divorce and ended up in an apartment, my ex- >> wife cut >> the work bench >> in half I also loss my job, now I have a work bench, a job and >> garage again, >> the ribs come down >> from the my mom's attic and I am now starting again exactly where I >> left >> off. >> >> Russell >> >> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Ken Howe wrote: >>> >>> >>> When I originally drew out the section (using DesignCAD) at the >>> front spar >>> location it measured a little over 5 1/4" tall between the >>> capstrips. So my >>> block just takes up that extra 1/2" or so. >>> >>> For the leading edge, if I can't find a hand rail that looks right I >>> figured I use the classical method. I'll rib a couple angled cuts >>> from >>> appropriately sized strips of pine, fir, hemlock or whatever I can >>> find, >>> then hand plane them to rounded sections. Making those long curled >>> shavings >>> sounds like it might be kind of satisfying. I enjoy working with >>> hand tools >>> when it's appropriate - planing, OK; making those long angled rip >>> cuts, time >>> for power tools. >>> >>> --Ken >>> >>> Dave and Connie wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ken, >>>> >>>> I figured that the original size spars would work with blocks. >>>> >>>> What are you planning to do for the leading edge? It looks like >>>> it would >>>> be a little tall for Mike Cuy's banister stock. >>>> >>>> Cave >>>> >>>> >>>> Ken Howe wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am building my 612 ribs to use the standard 4 3/4" tall spars. >>>>> The >>>>> rear >>>>> spar fits in just right, with a little space for a wedge to be >>>>> inserted >>>>> between the top of the spar and the rib. The front of the rib >>>>> is, as you >>>>> note, quite a bit taller where the front spar goes. I've >>>>> designed my >>>>> truss >>>>> to insert a small block under the spar so that the space betwen >>>>> the >>>>> block >>>>> and the top capstrip is 4 3/4". I'd posted a few pictures a >>>>> month or 2 >>>>> back >>>>> to the list so you might find them in the archives. I don't >>>>> have any of >>>>> my >>>>> pictures here at work, so I've whipped out a quick and dirty >>>>> sketch to >>>>> show >>>>> what I've done. >>>>> >>>>> On the Riblett section, there is more of a curve in the leading >>>>> edge of >>>>> the >>>>> bottom capstrip. I didn't feel comfortable dry fitting my strips >>>>> into >>>>> the >>>>> jig with that much bend, so I am pre-bending the bottom strips >>>>> similar >>>>> to >>>>> what is done for the top strip. >>>>> >>>>> - >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" >>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>>> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>>> ==== >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:19 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Douwe's progress report Hey Dan, thanks for asking... Well, because of a work deadline, the last two months has been a bit slower but progress is again moving. I'm basically doing all the small piddly stuff. I'm just finishing up my windscreens which I made of brass and were a bit time consuming. Next is cockpit coaming, hooking up the elevator cables, make flop catch, paint inspection etc, etc, etc. I probably won't put the wings on in my studio so that'll will wait until I get it to the airport. If I can keep up the progress, I'm hoping to be able to get it to the airfield late Nov or early Dec. I'm really going to try to get tough and do what I can (taxi testing, glitch identification) during winter so I'm really ready for spring. Lowell Frank says he'll come down and do the first hops. For those of you who havn't followed for the last few years... short fuselage, Ford, three piece wing, Jenny gear with big wheels. How'bout you Dan? I assume you're pretty darn close yourself. Douwe ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:03 PM PST US From: jorge lizarraga Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge .perfect exelent idea like old timer perfect builders like bleriot wright bross ets. keep goin you have a master pise right dere . --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Jack Phillips wrote: From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: leading edge =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AGene, =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AAs o thers have already indicated, the=0Afiller strips are at least unnecessary, and are possibly detrimental.=C2- As for=0Ausing nailing strips to hold the plywood in place while the glue cures, that is=0Aexactly what I did =93 a layer of waxed paper over the plywood, then a thin=0Astrip of scra p spruce with nails driven through the spruce, the plywood and=0Ainto the r ibs and leading edge.=C2- Once the glue had cured, I peeled off the=0Anai ling strips and waxed paper and was done.=C2- The small gaps between pane ls was=0Afilled in with PolyFiber=99s =9CSuperFil=9D and sanded smooth. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AGood luck, =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AJack=0A Phillips =0A=0ANX899JP =0A=0ARaleigh, NC =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom:=0A owner-pietenpol-list-server@matroni cs.com [mailto:=0A owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo =0ASent: Friday, October 02, 2009=0A6:37 PM =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: leading=0Aedge =0A=0A=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0AI KNOW this has been=0Adiscussed, but a search of the archives does n ot turn up an answer to my exact=0Aquestion.=C2- I am ready to install th e plywood on my leading edge.=C2-=0A(OK, let's get terminology out of the way here.=C2- The very front piece I am=0Acalling the "nose piece."=C2 - That, together with the plywood on=0Athe top side back to the spar=C2 -forms the "leading edge."=C2- On=0Athe top of the spar between the rib s are the "filler strips") =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ASince the plans don't=0Aspecify, I made the filler strips 1/2" wide and glued th em=C2-flush=0Awith=C2-the front face=C2-of the spar (for several reas ons that I won't go=0Ainto here)=C2- Because they follow the curve of the top capstrip, they are=0Aabout 3/8" tall at the rear.=C2- OK, the plans say for the plywood to be=0A9" wide.=C2- Even overlapping the ply over th e nose piece 1/2", the=0Aply goes about 3/4" beyond the back of the filler strip.=C2- I don't=0Ahave a problem with that, it probably helps fair the fabric in, but I was=0Awondering what most of you do.=C2- Do any of you cut the ply to end at the=0Aback of the filler strip?=C2- Seems like that would make the edge pretty=0Asharp for the fabric to follow. =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AThe next question is=0Athe sequence of gluei ng it on.=C2- I am planning on using nail strips to hold=0Ait down to the nose piece.=C2- Just wondering whether to glue/nail to the=0Aspar filler first and then bend down, or the other way around, or am I worrying=0Atoo much?? =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAll this being said, I=0A just found a place in Mass where I bought my 1/16"=C2-okume=0Aplywood.=C2 - The 4x8 sheet was $27, the first two cuts were free.=C2-=0ACutting it into 9" pieces took 5 cuts, so for around $30 plus shipping, I=0Ahad my le ading edge material.=C2- Can't think of the name now, but contact me=0Aof fline and I can give it to anyone who is interested. =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2 - =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AGene =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2 - =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet enpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:44 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/Pull on elevator It's a pleasure Tom Peter Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tkreiner Sent: Monday, 5 October 2009 12:09 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/Pull on elevator Peter, You website, and explanations are great. Thanks for adding all the detail to help all of us newbies. TK -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266375#266375 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:45 PM PST US From: jorge lizarraga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup; tanks for the aidea help alot nex week work in there also stare instal in s ide all turn bucles soon I think$$$$$$$$$,cables nico pres timbles etc.an m ake weld stuf for horns and controler thinks tanks for you help, jorge from hanford --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Tim Willis wrote: From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup et> Jorge & Oscar, Corky's second project (now mine) is as Oscar described-- the two throttles are connected by small diameter steel push-pull tubes, with a Bowden cable from the front pit to the carb.- The handles are on top.- I plan for a left glove (leather, no lace, Michael Jackson) to keep 100 mph June bugs a nd chilling air off my knuckles.- Usually- chilling air is not a major factor in TX, or Oscar would have fixed that.- Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Oscar Zuniga >Sent: Oct 4, 2009 11:01 AM >To: Pietenpol List >Subject: Pietenpol-List: throttle setup > > > >Jorge; I think the throttle that is shown in the >plans is about as simple as you can get.- One thing >that would be an improvement is to link the front >and rear throttle levers with a rod or tube, then >carry a Bowden cable forward to the carb from the >front throttle.- I've seen pictures of that setup >on more than one Piet but I don't remember whose >airplane had it.- The last ones I saw were of a >really nice, clean, simple cockpit with beautifully >varnished plywood cockpit; I'm no wood expert but >it looked like birch ply (blonde color), dark hardwood >knobs on the throttles. > >41CC has the pilot's throttle up near the cockpit >coaming with the pivot at the bottom; upside-down >from what the plans show.- I like that setup since >it gives more room down in the cockpit but when the >weather is cold, it puts your hand almost out in >the wind.- I can post a photo of the throttle if you >are interested.- And the front throttle is just a >knob attached to the inner wire of the Bowden cable >with bug nuts to secure it. > >PS: "Cold", as defined in Texas, is anything >below about 80F. > >Oscar Zuniga >Air Camper NX41CC >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net --- -------- ------ --- - > > le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:56 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Fw: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Don, here is Bill See's story of Aurburn, It's getting heated in here ha ha ha, Shad Bill See's story: #yiv788143615 p {margin:0;} SHAD, Well the story was a little different actually! I buzzed ahead of the 3 PIETS and went into the rain. I went ahead to verify the rain! Then made a 90degree turn North to lead the Piets! Talking to Gary Bell I asked hime where we wanted to go and I buzzed up to AUBURN. Getting close to Auburn, I was talking to the Gulfstream and he willing agreed to not take off until the Piets where on the ground. I cicrcled, the Gulfstream took off and I l anded in trail. Ya need to call the (RAIN MAN) Don Imch JR, and tell him we are going to take up a collection -for him a little radio with some batt eries. BUT, maybe not because they would not have seem as much fun!.......L OL! GB and BS were just tryin to herd the RAIN MAN and the ANTIQUE GURU to clea r skies!............LOL! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" Sent: Friday, October 2, 2009 4:26:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Bill here is a story from Don Emch about the return from Brodhead Shad --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Don Emch wrote: From: Don Emch Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... While flying home from OSH I was leading our group of four.- The group in cluded two other Piets, Frank Pavliga and Gary Bell and Bill See in an Aero nca.- We ran into some rain near Ft. Wayne, Indiana and had to divert to the north.- I headed toward Auburn, IN.- They have a huge and wide pave d runway.- While coming down final I looked toward the grass that ran bet ween the runway and taxiway.- I thought it looked awful inviting.- So b etween the cross taxiways I came in over some taxi lights and set it down i n the grass.- As I was rolling along in some beautiful grass wondering wh y they even had to put the pavement in, I glanced over at the taxiway besid e me and saw a row of very surprised individuals, including a pilot, all st aring at me while comfortably seated in a large and gorgeous Gulfstream.- I waved at them all.- As I rolled up on the taxiway pavement I looked ba ck to see the other three guys following suit and all landing beside the taxiway too.- I'm sure it became qui! te a topic of discussion inside the beautiful Gulfstream, both among the pi lots and the non pilot passengers, that these little airplanes were missing the runway!- Sometimes my little airplane makes me smile in many more wa ys than one! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265975#265975 le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:46 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Sounds like two good reasons to NOT have a radio: 1) quiet, uninformed bliss 2) plausible deniability Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (15 ribs down.) Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: Fw: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Don, here is Bill See's story of Aurburn, It's getting heated in here ha ha ha, Shad Bill See's story: SHAD, Well the story was a little different actually! I buzzed ahead of the 3 PIETS and went into the rain. I went ahead to verify the rain! Then made a 90degree turn North to lead the Piets! Talking to Gary Bell I asked hime where we wanted to go and I buzzed up to AUBURN. Getting close to Auburn, I was talking to the Gulfstream and he willing agreed to not take off until the Piets where on the ground. I cicrcled, the Gulfstream took off and I landed in trail. Ya need to call the (RAIN MAN) Don Imch JR, and tell him we are going to take up a collection for him a little radio with some batteries. BUT, maybe not because they would not have seem as much fun!.......LOL! GB and BS were just tryin to herd the RAIN MAN and the ANTIQUE GURU to clear skies!............LOL! ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" Sent: Friday, October 2, 2009 4:26:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Bill here is a story from Don Emch about the return from Brodhead Shad --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Don Emch wrote: From: Don Emch Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... > While flying home from OSH I was leading our group of four. The group included two other Piets, Frank Pavliga and Gary Bell and Bill See in an Aeronca. We ran into some rain near Ft. Wayne, Indiana and had to divert to the north. I headed toward Auburn, IN. They have a huge and wide paved runway. While coming down final I looked toward the grass that ran between the runway and taxiway. I thought it looked awful inviting. So between the cross taxiways I came in over some taxi lights and set it down in the grass. As I was rolling along in some beautiful grass wondering why they even had to put the pavement in, I glanced over at the taxiway beside me and saw a row of very surprised individuals, including a pilot, all staring at me while comfortably seated in a large and gorgeous Gulfstream. I waved at them all. As I rolled up on the taxiway pavement I looked back to see the other three guys following suit and all landing beside the taxiway too. I'm sure it became qui! te a topic of discussion inside the beautiful Gulfstream, both among the pilots and the non pilot passengers, that these little airplanes were missing the runway! Sometimes my little airplane makes me smile in many more ways than one! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenbsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - &nbs ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:18 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... Speaking of radios.....A while back, when I was having problems being understood on the radio because of all the wind noise, someone on this list suggested I put a 35mm film canister, with a small hole, over the mike. I'm here to tell you it works great! Thanks to whom ever passed on that info to me. Gene N502R ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: reinforced "end" ribs From: "Bill Church" Well, maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. What I read was you talking about other builders reinforcing the wing tip "incase of ground loops", and then you said that you were thinking of adding some plywood to your wingtips (I think). That sounds to me like you're planning to reinforce your wing tips in preparation for a ground loop. As for fire protection, I have only one thing to say. THE AIRPLANE IS BUILT OF WOOD. Wood burns. But gasoline burns more readily than wood. I would imagine that the fuel had more to do with the unfortunate circumstance you mentioned than the fact that it was an open cockpit, or what materials the plane was built of. I would hazard a guess that those poor people that perished in their crash most likely were burned by the fuel that spilled, far more that the wooden structure (if it even was a wooden airframe). Crashing on landing is a possibility with every flight - but that is a known risk that all pilots take (as is the risk of a crash with every trip we take in an automobile). Perhaps a more effective safety feature might be the use of a fuel cell, such as those used in race cars, which would limit the flow of fuel out of a ruptured fuel tank. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266491#266491 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:24 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... I have no desire to land up as a hood ornament on some large passenger plan e because I didn't happen to see him.I like to keep both eyes and ears open to what's going on.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Gary Boothe =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASe nt: Sunday, October 4, 2009 6:10:27 PM=0ASubject: RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: L anding at Airports with Gulfstreams...=0A=0A=0ASounds like two good reasons to NOT have a radio:=0A=C2-=0A1)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- quiet, uninform ed bliss=0A2)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- plausible deniability =0A=C2-=0AGar y Boothe=0ACool, Ca.=0APietenpol=0AWW Corvair Conversion, mounted=0ATail do ne,=C2-Fuselage=C2-on gear=0A(15 ribs down)=0ADo not archive =0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-serve r@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behal f Of shad bell=0ASent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 2:58 PM=0ATo: Pietenpol Dis cussion=0ASubject: Fw: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstr eams...=0A=C2-=0ADon, here is Bill See's story of Aurburn, It's getting h eated in here ha ha ha,=0AShad=0A=0A=0ABill See's story:=0ASHAD, Well the s tory was a little different actually! I buzzed ahead of the 3 PIETS and wen t into the rain. I went ahead to verify the rain! Then made a 90degree turn North to lead the Piets! Talking to Gary Bell I asked hime where we wanted to go and I buzzed up to AUBURN . Getting close to Auburn , I was talking to the Gulfstream and he willing agreed to not take off until the Piets whe re on the ground. I cicrcled, the Gulfstream took off and I landed in trail . Ya need to call the (RAIN MAN) Don Imch JR, and tell him we are going to take up a collection =C2-for him a little radio with some batteries. BUT, maybe not because they would not have seem as much fun!.......LOL!=0A>GB a nd BS were just tryin to herd the RAIN MAN and the ANTIQUE GURU to clear sk ies!............LOL!=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>----- Original Message -----=0A>From: "shad bell" =0A>To: "Bill See" =0A>Sent: Friday, October 2, 2009 4:26:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern =0A>Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams...=0A >Bill here is a story from Don Emch about the return from Brodhead=0A>Shad =0A>=0A>--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Don Emch wrote:=0A>=0A>>From : Don Emch =0A>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing at Airpor ts with Gulfstreams...=0A>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0A>>Date: Thurs on Emch" =0A>>=0A>>While flying home from OSH I was leadin g our group of four.=C2- The group included two other Piets, Frank Pavlig a and Gary Bell and Bill See in an Aeronca.=C2- We ran into some rain nea r Ft. Wayne , Indiana and had to divert to the north.=C2- I headed toward Auburn , IN. =C2- They have a huge and wide paved runway.=C2- While co ming down final I looked toward the grass that ran between the runway and t axiway.=C2- I thought it looked awful inviting.=C2- So between the cros s taxiways I came in over some taxi lights and set it down in the grass.=C2 - As I was rolling along in some beautiful grass wondering why they even had to put the pavement in, I glanced over at the taxiway beside me and saw a row of very surprised individuals, including a pilot, all staring at me while comfortably seated in a large and gorgeous Gulfstream.=C2- I waved at them all.=C2- As I rolled up on the taxiway pavement I looked back to see the other three guys following suit and all landing beside the taxiway too.=C2- I'm sure it became qui!=0A>>te a topic of discussion in side the beautiful Gulfstream, both among the pilots and the non pilot pass engers, that these little airplanes were missing the runway!=C2- Sometime s my little airplane makes me smile in many more ways than one!=0A>>=0A>>Do n Emch=0A>>NX899DE=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Read this topic online here:=0A> >=0A>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopsp;=C2---> http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Pietenbsp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-- MA TRONICS WEB FORUMS - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- &nbs =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=C2- =0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp ://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =C2- =================== ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Landing at Airports with Gulfstreams... From: "Don Emch" Well Shad, that's a pretty good story! They don't call Bill by his initials for nothing! B. S. Ha! The visibility wasn't the best. I was leading for a while then I think he did pull ahead and give the rain a test. Sure enough it was rain! Now that I think of it he did lead us up there to Auburn. I was the first to land. He must have waited until the Gulfstream took off. Anyway the looks on their faces was priceless! By the way, I have a ton of respect for Bill See. He's a great guy with lots of flying wisdom. It's a real treat to hang out with him! As a matter of fact even though it seemed to take forever to get home, that trip out of OSH with you and that whole gang was the highlight of my summer of flying. Loads of fun! Thanks Shad! On a totally different note... I'd love to fly out to the islands next Spring and camp out for the weekend. Wouldn't it be cool if we could do a little Piet gathering up at Wakeman or somewhere up that way and fly out there together. Maybe we could get Mike C. and Frank P. and possibly Skip G. and all go out there together. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266503#266503 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 Leading Edge From: amsafetyc@aol.com That's never a good place for anyone John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Matt Redmond Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 Leading Edge >>>my ex-wife cut the work bench in half<<< No offense, but the best place for some people is floating face-down in a lake. Do not archive. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Robert Ray wrote: > Yes I went through a divorce and ended up in an apartment, my ex-wife cut > the work bench > in half I also loss my job, now I have a work bench, a joband garage again, > the ribs come down > from the my mom's attic and I am now starting again exactly where I left > off. > > Russell > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Ken Howe wrote: >> >> >> When I originally drew out the section (using DesignCAD) at the front spar >> location it measured a little over 5 1/4" tall between the capstrips. So my >> block just takes up that extra 1/2" or so. >> >> For the leading edge, if I can't find a hand rail that looks right I >> figured I use the classical method. I'll rib a couple angled cuts from >> appropriately sized strips of pine, fir, hemlock or whatever I can find, >> then hand plane them to rounded sections. Making those long curled shavings >> sounds like it might be kind of satisfying. I enjoy working with hand tools >> when it's appropriate - planing, OK; making those long angled rip cuts, time >> for power tools. >> >> --Ken >> >> Dave and Connie wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Ken, >>> >>> I figured that the original size spars would work with blocks. >>> >>> What are you planning to do for the leading edge? It looks like it would >>> be a little tall for Mike Cuy's banister stock. >>> >>> Cave >>> >>> >>> Ken Howe wrote: >>>> >>>> I am building my 612 ribs to use the standard 4 3/4" tall spars. The >>>> rear >>>> spar fits in just right, with a little space for a wedge to be inserted >>>> between the top of the spar and the rib. The front of the rib is, as you >>>> note, quite a bit taller where the front spar goes. I've designed my >>>> truss >>>> to insert a small block under the spar so that the space betwen the >>>> block >>>> and the top capstrip is 4 3/4". I'd posted a few pictures a month or 2 >>>> back >>>> to the list so you might find them in the archives. I don't have any of >>>> my >>>> pictures here at work, so I've whipped out a quick and dirty sketch to >>>> show >>>> what I've done. >>>> >>>> On the Riblett section, there is more of a curve in the leading edge of >>>> the >>>> bottom capstrip. I didn't feel comfortable dry fitting my strips into >>>> the >>>> jig with that much bend, so I am pre-bending the bottom strips similar >>>> to >>>> what is done for the top strip. >>>> >>>> - >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" >>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> ==== >>> >>> >>> > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:13 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: reinforced "end" ribs William Wynn's crash and burn and after the fact analysis should be required reading for all of us. The plane and passengers would have been OK except that the routing of the fuel line caused it to shear off when the wing slammed forward. http://flycorvair.com/wynne.html A few pics down you can see that the line comes straight out of the tank and down the cabane. It should have had a stress relieving, 360 spiral at the tank exit. Clif > > As for fire protection, I have only one thing to say. THE AIRPLANE IS > BUILT OF WOOD. Perhaps a more effective safety feature might be the use of a fuel cell, such as those used in race cars, which would limit the flow of fuel out of a ruptured fuel tank. > > Bill C. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: reinforced "end" ribs From: Robert Ray Exactly that why I've already installed a No smoking sign next to the experimental placard? On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Bill Church wrote: > billspiet@sympatico.ca> > > Well, maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. > What I read was you talking about other builders reinforcing the wing tip > "incase of ground loops", and then you said that you were thinking of adding > some plywood to your wingtips (I think). That sounds to me like you're > planning to reinforce your wing tips in preparation for a ground loop. > > As for fire protection, I have only one thing to say. THE AIRPLANE IS BUILT > OF WOOD. > Wood burns. But gasoline burns more readily than wood. I would imagine that > the fuel had more to do with the unfortunate circumstance you mentioned than > the fact that it was an open cockpit, or what materials the plane was built > of. I would hazard a guess that those poor people that perished in their > crash most likely were burned by the fuel that spilled, far more that the > wooden structure (if it even was a wooden airframe). Crashing on landing is > a possibility with every flight - but that is a known risk that all pilots > take (as is the risk of a crash with every trip we take in an automobile). > Perhaps a more effective safety feature might be the use of a fuel cell, > such as those used in race cars, which would limit the flow of fuel out of a > ruptured fuel tank. > > Bill C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266491#266491 > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood web spar-- the right plywoods From: Robert Ray The Jodel plans that are now for sale in English do not recommend Okume in the box spar structure, they are from Frank Rogers in Australia there is also an okume to birch conversion table on the jodel Web site, But then again they build canoes and kayaks out of the stuff all the time of course they usually have a layer of glass on them. Russell On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Owen Davies wrote: > > Tim Willis wrote: > >> You have to really LOOK for marine/aero plywood, even at specialty lumber >> sources. >> > Happily, I live on the east coast of Florida. Marine plywood, okoume or > otherwise, is pretty easy to find. Marine okoume is what I meant, of course. > > It has a long history in airplanes. A lot of French homebuilts have used > it, including the older Jodels. The One Design still calls for it, though it > appears to be limited to the wing skin; the spar is laminated from Doug fir > or spruce. > > Complaints I've seen say that it is dimensionally unstable, susceptible to > rot and fatigue (?), and may not meet any particular standard, so that some > sheets might have areas of bad grain runout overlapping in all the plies. > That last should not be a problem in anything that meets BS1088. I would > tend to trust Bruynzeel, which I believe does. > > The "close enough for government work" analysis seems to be that its > strength characteristics are like those of mahogany ply. > > In 2004, Shelman (found through the Wayback Machine at > http://web.archive.org/web/20031014012429/http://shelmanusa.com/SpecShelmarine.cfm) > listed the following properties for its Shelmarine okoume plywood: > > Density: 420-520 kg/M3 > > Property lb/in2 > > Ultimate tensile strength 4350 > Ultimate bending strength 5800 > Ultimate shearing strength > following thickness direction 435 > parallel to the veneer plies 1160 > Modulus of elasticity 580K > Bending/tension permissable load 1885 > > More than anyone probably wanted to know.... > > I bought 1.5mm okume marine ply for leading edge from Boulter Plywood in >> greater Boston, MA. >> > The perfect material for the purpose, IMHO. And Boulter's price is right, > or was the last time I looked. > > > Owen > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: reinforced "end" ribs From: Robert Ray I know the plane is wood thats my main point is I don't want to set it on fire if I can help it. Of course I have a friend that buit a flying flea, NOW I know I'm going to tick off some body thats got a flying flea, but anyway after flying it one time he took the engine and instruments off and set it on fire, On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Clif Dawson wrote: > > William Wynn's crash and burn and after the fact analysis > should be required reading for all of us. > > The plane and passengers would have been OK except > that the routing of the fuel line caused it to shear off when > the wing slammed forward. > > http://flycorvair.com/wynne.html > > A few pics down you can see that the line comes straight > out of the tank and down the cabane. It should have had > a stress relieving, 360=B0 spiral at the tank exit. > > Clif > >> >> As for fire protection, I have only one thing to say. THE AIRPLANE IS >> BUILT OF WOOD. >> > Perhaps a more effective safety feature might be the use of a fuel cell, > such as those used in race cars, which would limit the flow of fuel out o f a > ruptured fuel tank. > >> >> Bill C. >> > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: reinforced "end" ribs From: Robert Ray On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Robert Ray wrote: > I know the plane is wood thats my main point is I don't > want to set it on fire if I can help it. Of course I have > a friend that buit a flying flea, NOW I know I'm going to > tick off some body thats got a flying flea, but anyway > after flying it one time he took the engine and instruments > off and set it on fire, > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Clif Dawson wrote : > > >> >> William Wynn's crash and burn and after the fact analysis >> should be required reading for all of us. >> >> The plane and passengers would have been OK except >> that the routing of the fuel line caused it to shear off when >> the wing slammed forward. >> >> http://flycorvair.com/wynne.html >> >> A few pics down you can see that the line comes straight >> out of the tank and down the cabane. It should have had >> a stress relieving, 360=B0 spiral at the tank exit. >> >> Clif >> >>> >>> As for fire protection, I have only one thing to say. THE AIRPLANE IS >>> BUILT OF WOOD. >>> >> Perhaps a more effective safety feature might be the use of a fuel cell, >> such as those used in race cars, which would limit the flow of fuel out of a >> ruptured fuel tank. >> >>> >>> Bill C. >>> >> >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:41 PM PST US From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT Subject: Pietenpol-List: my project tribute (long) Ok=2C this is not a question - more of a personal story I guess. I started my Piet in 2001 with the purchase of plans and 4 rough sawn spruc e boards from McCormicks in Madison. At first I went at it pretty steadily =2C building most of the fuselage in about a year. My wife and I had been married for quite a few years already and hadn't had any kids - nor were th ey really in our imediate future. We moved homes in 2003 and my project got stored at my in-laws place for th e winter. The only thing I had completed at the new home was the turtledec k - which to this day=2C I'm not happy with. Problem was=2C I couldn't get it into the basement at the new house and the garage wasn't heated. Once it's at some other place than home=2C it's hard to motivate yourself to go work on it. So it sat there for a couple years. I did complete the tail s ection. And in 2005-06 I built the wing ribs and tore down a couple corvai r motors. Most of the corvair parts are here now=2C ready to be assembled. My first boy was born in 2006. We had 4 miscarriages up until this point a nd figured we'd never have children. Actually=2C we were in the process of adopting. Since then=2C the project has done nothing but collect dust. I t's hard to find time (and money) once you have young children around. Well=2C it's 2009 and I'm finally getting back to work on it again. I boug ht some material for wing spars and have been prepping to make the center s ection. Last year my father in law had a heart attack and through the trea tments for it=2C found out he had a rare form of cancer. He lived with us for 3 months because he needed contant care and his wife worked nights. I can't say enough about how my wife stepped up and took care of him. This i s what they mean in the bible when they say "Honor your father and mother". It's been a rough year or so with a roller coaster of emotions=2C hospita l and nursing home visits. He's currently recovering from hip surgery due to his hip deteriorating - due to the cancer. A couple months ago=2C I found out my wife was pregnant again - this was a huge surprise (blessing) since we were pretty much sure we didn't want anot her child at this point. Hmm=2C how'd that happen=3B). Three weeks ago=2C I was put on part time work - just escaping a round of layoffs. The econo my finally caught up to me. Then just two weeks ago=2C my mother found out she has pancreatic cancer. Statistics say she'll be dead within a year. Why am I saying all of this? Not to show anyone that my life is worse or b uisier than others. It's because of what I've been doing since I started b uilding my wing ribs a couple years ago. I asked family members and friend s to build one rib=2C sign and date it. Only a few of them did it=2C inclu ding my wife=2C my dad=2C mother and father in-law. So I built most of the m. But at that point=2C I wanted this airplane to mean something to others - not just me. I recently asked my father in law to think about the N-num ber and how he'd like to see it - someting that would mean something to him . He was a garbage man all his life and he loved it - so=2C someday=2C I'l l have something about that on the airplane - N-number or otherwise. I've recently asked my mom to help me build the center section to which she agre ed. It's my way of creating memories with these poeple - hopefully somethi ng they'll remember too. Anyway=2C my project is on the slow track for sure=2C but I'm ok with that. If it wasn't for all the other things in life=2C maybe it would be furthe r along but hey=2C life happens to all of us. Someday=2C I hope to finish this thing and fly it=2C commemorating all the people and efforts that have gone into it along the way. Until then=2C I'll just keep on building at s ome pace - slow at times=2C fast at times.. If you're project isn't progressing as fast as you want or maybe you've los t interest=2C do something to make it special - and take your time. It's n ot a race. Life happens. Sorry for the rant=2C just feelin nostalgic tonight I guess. Tom B. Brooklyn Park=2C MN creating memories with my mom - working on the center section ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:58 PM PST US From: stephen labash Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vertical intercostals in ribs Pietenpol plans show no verical intercostals anterior and posterior to the two spars. Every other rib I have seen shows the anterior and posterior v ertical intercostals immediately adjacent to the spars. Your thoughts appr eciated. Steve =0A _________________________________________________________________=0A Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.=0A ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:01 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: my project tribute (long) Tom, Thank you for putting so much into proper perspective. Hats off to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: my project tribute (long) Ok, this is not a question - more of a personal story I guess. [personal essay snipped for brevity] Sorry for the rant, just feelin nostalgic tonight I guess. Tom B. Brooklyn Park, MN creating memories with my mom - working on the center section [snip] ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:41 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 Leading Edge Unless they've got a snorkel, mask and fins. Just to make this relevant--Got my tank halves resined together today. It weighs 13 lb with valve, fittings and fuel gauge. Clif > > That's never a good place for anyone > John > > No offense, but the best place for some people is floating face-down in a > lake. > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:55 PM PST US From: Dallas Subject: Pietenpol-List: one/three piece wing Hey guys, Appreciate the response on the wing dilemma. Just to answer a few questions ; space is not a problem. I fortunately have an old WW II hanger for a work shop (in the back) so I've got plenty of room. I work nights at the airpor t-and I work on the Piet at night at work. Just a perk of-flying medeva c-at night with your base next to the hanger. So I guess I'm a night owl. It appears that most choose the three piece wing due to space issues but I didn't know if there were some other advantages besides the fact that you c an trailer it easier. I'm planning on the one piece wing unless someone can convince me otherwise. Of course, when I get to the spar scarf issues, I m ay change my mind. - Anyhoo, thanks for the input. Looking forward to the endeavor! - Dallas=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.