Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:12 AM - thanks all (Douwe Blumberg)
2. 02:13 AM - straight axle bungees (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 04:43 AM - Re: one/three piece wing (helspersew@aol.com)
4. 04:55 AM - Re: Re: Spring Gear (Jack)
5. 05:11 AM - Re: control cable exit holes (Gene Rambo)
6. 05:14 AM - Re: thanks all (Dan Yocum)
7. 05:25 AM - Re: tailwheel springs (Gene Rambo)
8. 05:57 AM - hickory wood (Oscar Zuniga)
9. 05:57 AM - Re: control cable exit holes (Jack Phillips)
10. 06:10 AM - Re: straight axle bungees (Bill Church)
11. 06:13 AM - Re: tailwheel springs (Doug Dever)
12. 06:24 AM - Re: Spring Gear (Jeff Boatright)
13. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Spring Gear (JERRY GROGAN)
14. 06:46 AM - Re: hickory wood (Bill Church)
15. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: Spring Gear (Bill Church)
16. 09:19 AM - Re: control cable exit holes (shad bell)
17. 09:37 AM - Re: Spring Gear (Bill Church)
18. 10:19 AM - Re: control cable exit holes (Lagowski Morrow)
19. 10:19 AM - Re: tailwheel springs (Ryan Mueller)
20. 11:19 AM - Re: Spring Gear (steven sadler)
21. 12:11 PM - Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols (Perry Rhoads)
22. 12:11 PM - Re: Spring Gear (hvandervoo@aol.com)
23. 12:39 PM - Re: Spring Gear (Bill Church)
24. 12:52 PM - Re: Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols (Jim Markle)
25. 01:08 PM - Re: bell crank spring for trim control (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
26. 01:22 PM - Re: toasting-- Jimmy Doolittle style (Baldeagle)
27. 01:22 PM - Re: Front cowling for the pietenpol (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
28. 02:38 PM - Re: control cable exit holes (Dan Yocum)
29. 02:48 PM - Vi Kapler's Piets (Oscar Zuniga)
30. 03:37 PM - Cable exits (helspersew@aol.com)
31. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: Spring Gear (Jack)
32. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Spring Gear (Jack)
33. 05:22 PM - Re: Spring Gear (steven sadler)
34. 06:51 PM - Javier is back ! (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
35. 06:54 PM - Spring Gear (Oscar Zuniga)
36. 07:21 PM - Re: hickory wood (Robert Ray)
37. 07:21 PM - Re: tailwheel springs (Clif Dawson)
38. 07:41 PM - Re: hickory wood (Clif Dawson)
39. 07:42 PM - Re: hickory wood (Clif Dawson)
40. 08:04 PM - Re: Spring Gear (Ryan Mueller)
41. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Front cowling for the pietenpol (shad bell)
42. 08:11 PM - Re: hickory wood (Ryan Mueller)
43. 08:18 PM - hickory wood (Oscar Zuniga)
44. 08:29 PM - Re: hickory wood (Robert Ray)
45. 09:12 PM - Re: Javier is back ! (Javier Cruz)
46. 10:14 PM - Re: hickory wood ok (jorge lizarraga)
Message 1
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Thank you all for your advice, we really have a great resource of knowledge
with this group.
Should probably use springs, but I was planning on putting them behind the
pilot seat. I will use split bolts to affix the tailwheel cable to the
rudder cable, and after about eight inches or so, will splice in the springs
so they don't interfere with the rudder cable itself. A nice benefit of
this (stolen from Larry Williams) is that the split bolts are adjusted to
become your rudder stops. They simply hit the bulkhead and stop the rudder
travel. I think Larry said he installed a little plywood disk loosely
there. A rubber doughnut would work too.
One could also precut some cloth patches to cover the cable exit holes, pink
them, spray them and glue them on using any number of glues. This would
save a few grams by the tail, and be inconspicuous.
Douwe
Message 2
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Subject: | straight axle bungees |
The other day I came across some photos of WWI german airplanes where the
landing gear bungees had been replaced with long coil springs wrapped around
the axle in a similar manner. I am assuming this expedient was due to their
rubber shortage, but it set me thinking...
Though heavier, I wonder if it would work. Over the years, I've heard of
two incidents with straight axle gears due to broken bungees. Stainless
steel springs can be had which would virtually eliminate worry over aging
bungees and the headache of replacing them every so often.
I wonder how much heavier it would be.
Douwe
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: one/three piece wing |
Santiago, my hat's off to you. That is the best and simplest spar splice jig I
have ever seen. Can't get any better.
Dan H
-----Original Message-----
From: santiago morete <moretesantiago@yahoo.com.ar>
Sent: Wed, Oct 7, 2009 10:00 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: one/three piece wing
Dallas,
We used this simple jig to make the 15:1?scarf.? Very easy, fast and accurate.
Saludos
?
Santiago
?
Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.
http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
Message 4
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Thanks so much to all, valuable input!
Jack
www.textors.com
Very close, Jeff.
You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring.
Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to move
the full compression of the spring.
That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jeff Boatright
Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space
between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the
spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to
be, right?
>
>
>Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring
>struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them
>yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get
>the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill.
>Jim B.
>
>Jim Boyer
>Santa Rosa, CA
>Pietenpol builder with Corvair
>
>Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list@matronics.com wrote:
>
>All,
>Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo
>is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does
>that sound like enough travel?
>Thanks,
>Jack
>www.textors.com
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
05:18:00
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: control cable exit holes |
if the cut is truly accurate, there is no need for any kind of patch,
but only if you put a piece of fabric as a doubler at the exit point.
It kind of looks better without one, and if there is no side tearing
movement, it will never grow.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg<mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
To: pietenpolgroup<mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:18 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net<mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>>
I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run back
to
the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over
them,
but I was wondering...
The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I
simply
leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and enlarge
in the
slipstream?
Douwe
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 6
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Douwe,
Douwe Blumberg wrote:
> One could also precut some cloth patches to cover the cable exit holes, pink
> them, spray them and glue them on using any number of glues. This would
> save a few grams by the tail, and be inconspicuous.
Note in the pictures that fabric patches is what was done on Le Turtle
N8031 and the fabric still ripped and frayed.
Dan
PS, yes La Tortue would be the proper French translation - I'm still
working on the name. ;-)
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: tailwheel springs |
I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying, although logically
you would think it would increase it. Just think, ALL Cubs, Champs,
Taylorcrafts, Cessnas, etc, etc, etc use them. There MUST be a good
reason.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg<mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
To: pietenpolgroup<mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net<mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>>
One more thing...
There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel
springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't
use
springs, just straight cables?
Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder
bar,
which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid
of
some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and
you'd
save a few ounces.
In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from
the
tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea?
Thanks
Douwe,
ps: finished windscreens, now doing leather cockpit coaming, which is
very
rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing going!!
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 8
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Jorge; I think hickory wood is what is commonly used
foraxe handles. You can also use ash if you are making
cabane struts from wood. You could probably also
use oak.
Speaking of hickory axe handles, and going back to
earlier posts about making the wing tip bows out
of something durable to resist groundloop scrapes,
you could also install axe handle outriggers like
the tri-wing Fokker airplanes had, to do the same
thing. Sort of like training wheels ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 9
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Subject: | control cable exit holes |
PolyTak
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Yocum
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes
Douwe,
Indeed, the holes will rip and tatter. See the following:
http://5n429glenoak.homelinux.net/gallery/N8031/img_2580
and a few pictures onward from there...
Which leads to my follow-on question since I have no fabric experience
yet - how does one glue on leather reinforcment patches? Superglue?
Epoxy? How does one prepare the fabric?
Thanks,
Dan
Ryan Mueller wrote:
> Douwe,
>
> The holes will most likely enlarge and tatter over time, with the
> cables moving back and forth through the holes , and vibrating around a
> bit in the slipstream. The leather patches, or whatever reinforcement
> you choose, can be installed at any time however, so if you want to
> leave them off and see how things wear I wouldn't think there would be
> any harm in that. Make the holes a preflight item, and if they start to
> enlarge then you know you need to install the patches.
>
> Ryan
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Douwe Blumberg
> <douweblumberg@earthlink.net <mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
> <douweblumberg@earthlink.net <mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>>
>
> I am looking at where my control cables exit the fuselage and run
> back to
> the "flippers". Most people seem to glue some leather patches over
> them,
> but I was wondering...
>
> The slits I made in the fuse covering were pretty accurate, Can I
> simply
> leave the slits as they are? or will they gradually tear and
> enlarge in the
> slipstream?
>
> Douwe
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 10
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Subject: | straight axle bungees |
Douwe,
Do you mean the springs were used as bungees? Long springs wrapped in
the same manner as bungees?
I would imagine that set-up would have its own bunch of problems, even
more troublesome than the rubber bungees.
I think the springs would become entangled as they were stretched,
side-by-side, and jostled around, ending up with a tangled mess.
And springs break too - not just bungees.
Do you have one of those photos to share? Just curious as to what it
looked like.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight axle bungees
--> <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
The other day I came across some photos of WWI german airplanes where
the landing gear bungees had been replaced with long coil springs
wrapped around the axle in a similar manner. I am assuming this
expedient was due to their rubber shortage, but it set me thinking...
Though heavier, I wonder if it would work. Over the years, I've heard
of two incidents with straight axle gears due to broken bungees.
Stainless steel springs can be had which would virtually eliminate worry
over aging bungees and the headache of replacing them every so often.
I wonder how much heavier it would be.
Douwe
Message 11
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Subject: | tailwheel springs |
Gene=2C
There must be a good reason you can't put full fuel=2C pax and baggage in m
ost cert. aircraft either. I can't figure it out.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
From: generambo@msn.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs
I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying=2C although logically you
would think it would increase it. Just think=2C ALL Cubs=2C Champs=2C Tay
lorcrafts=2C Cessnas=2C etc=2C etc=2C etc use them. There MUST be a good r
eason.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
Sent: Wednesday=2C October 07=2C 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs
link.net>
One more thing...
There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel
springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use
springs=2C just straight cables?
Obviously=2C bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar
=2C
which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of
some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs=2C and you'
d
save a few ounces.
In you flyer's experiences=2C how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the
tailwheel=2C and what do you think of this idea?
Thanks
Douwe=2C
ps: finished windscreens=2C now doing leather cockpit coaming=2C which is v
ery
rewarding. Got the Red Baron thing nbsp=3B Features Chat=2C http://w
ww.matnbsp=3B via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p=3B generous bsp=3B title=http://www.matroni
cs.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://w
ww.matronics.com/c================
=0A
_________________________________________________________________=0A
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection.=0A
Message 12
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Bill,
Yep, that's right. Of course, in my case, after a few landings a
less-than-minimal slot will have been wallered out... =-O
Jeff
>Very close, Jeff.
>You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring.
>Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able
>to move the full compression of the spring.
>That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be.
>
>Bill C.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jeff Boatright
>Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>
>
>I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space
>between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the
>spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to
>be, right?
Message 13
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Jack I think I have a set of the spring gear here at the shop, done you
could look at. I would need to dig a little but we have one made for the
Smith Miniplane. And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But
that is all the spring can traval anyway.
Jerry
Sky Classic Aircraft
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack" <jack@textors.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 6:14 AM
Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>
> Thanks so much to all, valuable input!
> Jack
> www.textors.com
>
>
> Very close, Jeff.
> You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the
> spring.
> Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to
> move
> the full compression of the spring.
> That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be.
>
> Bill C.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jeff
> Boatright
> Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>
>
> I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space
> between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the
> spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to
> be, right?
>
>>
>>
>>Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring
>>struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them
>>yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get
>>the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill.
>>Jim B.
>>
>>Jim Boyer
>>Santa Rosa, CA
>>Pietenpol builder with Corvair
>>
>>Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list@matronics.com wrote:
>>
>>All,
>>Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo
>>is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does
>>that sound like enough travel?
>>Thanks,
>>Jack
>>www.textors.com
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 05:18:00
>
>
>
Message 14
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For the loads imposed on the cabane struts (only about 50 pounds or so,
each), ALMOST any type of wood would likely be sufficient. I wrote the
word "almost" in caps to avoid having anyone following up with wiseguy
suggestions like using spalted burls for the cabanes (well, that's what
I would probably do anyway).
Cabane struts made of Spruce can handle the loads - provided an adequate
cross-section is used, and the connection details are also properly
thought out.
Actually, the connection details are likely more important than the
species of wood used.
Substituting wood cabanes for the streamline steel shown in the plans is
a structural change, so of course, anyone proposing making a change like
this should either do the calculations themselves (if they are
qualified), or have them done by someone who is qualified. Don't mess
with it if you don't know what you're doing.
I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of
4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube (?) to
carry the loads imposed on them. But they would look stupid. Visually
they would not appear to be correct.
Bill C.
Message 15
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Not to be a wiseguy, but that's no coincidence.
The slot length would be by design - determined by the spring travel.
Making the slot length to allow the crossbolt travel to be equal to, or
"slightly" longer than the distance the spring will travel is okay.
Making the slot length to allow the crossbolt travel to be less than the
distance the spring will travel is not okay.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY
GROGAN
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
--> <jerry@skyclassic.net>
... And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But that is all
the spring can traval anyway.
Jerry
Sky Classic Aircraft
Message 16
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Subject: | control cable exit holes |
Anothe methood is to sew the leather to a piece of fabric, then glue the fa
bric to the fabric, then it wont peel off with age due to drying out or shr
inkage of the leather.- Just make a teardrop shaped leather exit patch, a
nd then make a fabric patch that is 1 inch bigger all the way around the pe
rimeter, then stich the leather to the fabric, and then glue the fabric/lea
ther patch to the airplane.- I think this might stick better because fabr
ic glues are best suited to glue dacron to dacron.- I will admit though m
ost airplanes I see do have the leather patches just glued on.- Some I se
e are peeling off some don't.- I have also seen a trick where people will
laminate a piece of 1/16 plywood between the backside of the fabric, and c
over the ply to make a fabric-ply-fabric sandwich for cable exits.- This
seems to give the cleanest instalation, but I think the leather route looks
the most time period correct for a piet.
-
Probably 100 other methoods of doing it,
Shad=0A=0A=0A
Message 17
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Yes, Jack, you're messed up.
Just kidding... I can't resist when given an opportunity like that.
Your thinking is not off base, really.
The physical limit of the travel will be controlled by one of two
things:
A. the length of the slot, or
B. The compressed length of the spring.
Most people need to look at this landing gear arrangement for a little
while to figure out exactly how it works. When you see it working, it
makes sense, but looking at the drawing, it seems a bit confusing. While
the configuration of the landing gear will put the diagonal strut in
tension when loaded, this design uses a compression spring to absorb the
load. Compression springs have two limiting dimensions. One is the free
length, or unloaded length, which is the length before installing (easy
to measure), with no loads imposed on it. The other is the fully
compressed length, which is when there are no more gaps between the
coils, and the spring can not compress any further. When this point is
reached, it will not matter if the slot is any longer, because the
spring will not squish any more. As an example, the spring specified in
Hans' drawing has an Aircraft Spruce part number (06-13200)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/shockabsorb.php
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/shockabsorb.php> . The
other number (9-3224-36) is likely the manufacturer's part number, as
these springs are called Die Springs, and are used for machinery such as
punch presses. A little internet searching gives us the following
catalog from the manufacturer (Danly)
http://www.danly.com/PDFs/IEM-DieMaxSprings.pdf
<http://www.danly.com/PDFs/IEM-DieMaxSprings.pdf> . Page 13 of the
catalog has the particular spring listed, near the bottom of the page.
The spring diameter is 2", the Free length is 6", and the total travel
to solid is 1.78" at a load of 2593 pounds. The MINIMUM length of the
slot would be this length PLUS the diameter of the cross bolt (in this
case 5/16"), which comes out to just over 2". It is better to rely on
the spring as the limiting factor rather than the slot length, so the
slot is made a little longer than 2".
If the set-up made use of an Extension spring, rather than a Compression
spring, there would not really be a maximum length for the loaded
spring, since in theory, one could stretch the spring out till it was
just a straight piece of wire. So, in that case, the length of the slot
would be the limiting factor. Exrension springs are not really
manufactured to handle large loads like this, so they are not really an
option for this application.
Don't know if that made things clearer, or more confusing for you.
Bill C.
(by the way, my original plan was to build the split gear (it likely
would be better for rough fields), but I just prefer the look of the old
wooden gear more)
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Bill,
As usual, fantastic information, thanks. I too was going with the
straight (do you want mine) axle but feel the split will be better for
rough fields. Sorry Mike, Jack, Bill, ET AL. Not being an Engineer and
not too bright...I must not fully understand the operation of the strut.
It seems to me no matter the weight, bounce or spring tension, It looks
like the travel will be limited the slot length. Am I messed up?
Thanks!
Jack
www.textors.com
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Church
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:04 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Jack,
The required length of the slot is dependant on the amount of travel you
will want/need. The amount of travel you will actually get is dependant
on the weight of the plane, how hard you "land" and the specifics of the
actual springs you use. That's a lot of variables!
The example provided in Tony's book is likely for a specific plane
(although it could easily apply to many of a similar
size/configuration). It may, or may not apply to the Pietenpol.
To make life easier, since we're talking about Pietenpols, why don't we
refer to a couple of drawings that apply specifically to Pietenpols. The
first is a drawing that came from the old BPA Newsletters, and was drawn
in 1984 by Frank Pavliga Sr, I believe. In this drawing, the slot is 2
3/4" long.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_s
p
ring.jpg&PhotoID 09
The second drawing is a little more recent (2005), and was done by Hans
van der Voort, as built on his award-winning Piet. In this arrangement,
the slot is 2 1/2" long.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=75
So it looks like the slot probably should be longer for use on the Piet.
I think either of these arrangements will work well for the Piet. At
least I do not recall ever reading that anyone built to either design
and was not satisfied with the performance.
Personally, I'm going with the wooden Jenny-style gear, so I'll never
know first hand how they perform, but if I was building the split gear,
I'd go with springs rather than bungees.
Bill C.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jack@textors.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
All,
Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is
from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that
sound like enough travel?
Thanks,
Jack
www.textors.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
r
onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
270.14.4/2417 - Release Date: 10/06/09 06:50:00
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: control cable exit holes |
I used pinked edge leather patches glued to the finish painted fabric
with Polytak, which is the glue used with the Poly fiber system. My
patches have survived for~42 hours with no sign of coming loose--Jim
Lagowski
----- Original Message -----
From: shad bell
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes
Anothe methood is to sew the leather to a piece of fabric, then
glue the fabric to the fabric, then it wont peel off with age due to
drying out or shrinkage of the leather. Just make a teardrop shaped
leather exit patch, and then make a fabric patch that is 1 inch bigger
all the way around the perimeter, then stich the leather to the fabric,
and then glue the fabric/leather patch to the airplane. I think this
might stick better because fabric glues are best suited to glue dacron
to dacron. I will admit though most airplanes I see do have the leather
patches just glued on. Some I see are peeling off some don't. I have
also seen a trick where people will laminate a piece of 1/16 plywood
between the backside of the fabric, and cover the ply to make a
fabric-ply-fabric sandwich for cable exits. This seems to give the
cleanest instalation, but I think the leather route looks the most time
period correct for a piet.
Probably 100 other methoods of doing it,
Shad
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Subject: | Re: tailwheel springs |
I believe that reason would be 'compromise'....between size, structure,
performance, etc. I would bet that with most two seat certified aircraft you
can load them with full fuel, passengers, and baggage or come a few pounds
within doing so.....if you load them with the standard 170lb passengers. If
you choose to load non-standard size passengers then you will have to
compromise and reduce payload elsewhere, but that's not the airplane's
fault. ;)
I'm happy that the Sonex guys can use tailwheel setups with no springs, and
if we were building a Sonex we would do that too. Unfortunately we are
building an entirely different airplane, and the 80 some odd years of
empirical data thus far indicates that springs are a good idea with this
design. As such we will use them, but we will be interested to see how your
experiment of a 'spring-less' tailwheel setup on a Piet eventually turns
out. Good luck!
Ryan
do not archive
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:12 AM, Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>wrote:
> Gene,
>
> There must be a good reason you can't put full fuel, pax and baggage in
> most cert. aircraft either. I can't figure it out.
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: generambo@msn.com
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs
> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 08:11:22 -0400
>
> I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying, although logically you
> would think it would increase it. Just think, ALL Cubs, Champs,
> Taylorcrafts, Cessnas, etc, etc, etc use them. There MUST be a good reason.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
> *To:* pietenpolgroup <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:24 AM
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: tailwheel springs
>
> douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>
> One more thing...
>
> There was some talk (writing??) awhile back about not using tailwheel
> springs and it set me to thinking. What would happen if one didn't use
> springs, just straight cables?
>
> Obviously, bumps and jerks will be transmitted directly to the rudder bar,
> which is about the only downside I can see. Seems like you'd get rid of
> some potential uncontrolled movement back there without springs, and you'd
> save a few ounces.
>
> In you flyer's experiences, how bad can the bumps and jerks be from the
> tailwheel, and what do you think of this idea?
>
> Thanks
>
> Douwe,
>
>
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For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the
manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring,
there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the
spring will be fully compressed already.
I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer
than the spring full compression distance.
Steve in Winnipeg
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:29 PM, <jack@textors.com> wrote:
> All,
> Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo is from
> Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does that sound like
> enough travel?
> Thanks,
> Jack
> www.textors.com
>
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Subject: | Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols |
List Members,
Attached is a picture of Mr. Vitalis Kapler's newly completed Pietenpol.
It's very well done with a Ford A engine. Vi did everything possible to
keep the weight down. I think he said it weighted 610#. He hasn't flown
it yet, but I'm sure he's trying to get it airworthy before the
Minnesota winter sets in.
Also, Mr. Kapler has sold me his Pietenpol N12939, that he has owned for
23 years. I'm proud to be the next caretaker of this fine old airplane.
Perry Rhoads
Carlinville,IL.
N12939
Message 22
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I have great succes with my setup.
see:http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=75
Spring is from Aircraft Spruce.
BR
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: steven sadler <steven244sadler@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2009 1:18 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the manufacturer's
numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring, there
isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the spring
will be fully compressed already.
?
I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer than
the spring full compression distance.
?
Steve in Winnipeg
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:29 PM, <jack@textors.com> wrote:
All,
Can you assist with a question on spring gear?? The attached photo is from Tony's
book.? He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long.? Does that sound like enough
travel?
Thanks,
Jack
www.textors.com
Message 23
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|
I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56
spring data, highlighted.
The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max
compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually
compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible.
The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_s
p
ring.jpg&PhotoID 09
In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt.
There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for
full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).
Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will
take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the
minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would
suffice.
If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a
1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1
3/4" - 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes
58.4 pounds per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the
end of the slot at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough
travel.
But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the
sum of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the
cross-bolt (or pin).
Bill C.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven
sadler
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use),
the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that
spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4"
because the spring will be fully compressed already.
I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly
longer than the spring full compression distance.
Steve in Winnipeg
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols |
WOW! That thing is beautiful! Can't wait to see it at Brodhead.
Any idea what hinges he used? :-)
Sure is a beauty (both actually!).....
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Subject: | Re: bell crank spring for trim control |
-Members:
-
I have a unique set-up in mind for my trim system.-Please interject your
comments!-
-
I purchase a casement window small size window-crank with a butterfly han
dle-for use a my trim system in the cockpit. I can turn the crank either
way and get the necessary stick pressure for trim of the horizontal stabili
zer. I will post my photos and sketches when-I take on this task over the
weekend.
-
The question I have is this: What size and strength and stretch of spring i
s needed for attachment to the bell crank for tension?
-
My system was to use two springs attached to the rear of the bell crank one
high and one low. One spring will attach to a fixed support glued in place
. The other spring will be attached to a cable which will run through a pul
ley and back to the cockpit. As the crank turns for adjustment, the cable w
ill make stick pressure while the other spring creates return stick pressur
e. Making sense?
-
Flame me or scratch your head..... I believe this would make for a much eas
ier trim system rather then a trim tab attached to my stabilizer.
-
Comments and jesters welcome.
-
KMHeide
-=0A=0A=0A
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Subject: | Re: toasting-- Jimmy Doolittle style |
There are now only 9 left I think, and the AF Museum is planning to re-pave the
old runway next to the museum so they can land B-25s there next April for the
Raider Reunion. They may open the Cognac then since many of the survivors are
in poor health and they're worried that if they wait till the last two they
won't be able to do the toast.
-
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267141#267141
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Subject: | RE: Front cowling for the pietenpol |
Members of the list:
I am taking orders for those who are seeking a fiberglass two piece cowling
as seen on the Original Pietenpol. I have duplicated the mold of that cowl
ing (Thanks Dan) and will be creating more of them within the next few week
s. Costs are around $250.00 plus shipping (plus the box). Please send me a
message so I know the number I need to make!
=C2-
=C2-
Here as the dimensions of the cowlings finished.
=C2-
The smaller cowling (bottom) is 7=9D deep X 20=9D long X 26
=9D wide at the widest point. The larger cowling (Top) is 13=9D de
ep X 22=9D long X 29=9D wide.
=C2-
KMHeide
=C2-=0A=0A=0A
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Subject: | Re: control cable exit holes |
Hm. Do you guys think that I should peel off the top 1 or 2 layers of
paint to get down to the Poly-Spray? The top layer (Sherwin Williams)
peels off pretty readily with a good sticky tape, just like Jeff B. said
it would. The original Dulux paint seems to be pretty well adhered to
the fabric - at least, I haven't peeled any off, yet.
Thanks,
Dan
Lagowski Morrow wrote:
> I used pinked edge leather patches glued to the finish painted fabric
> with Polytak, which is the glue used with the Poly fiber system. My
> patches have survived for~42 hours with no sign of coming loose--Jim
> Lagowski
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* shad bell <mailto:aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:12 PM
> *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: control cable exit holes
>
> Anothe methood is to sew the leather to a piece of fabric, then glue
> the fabric to the fabric, then it wont peel off with age due to
> drying out or shrinkage of the leather. Just make a teardrop shaped
> leather exit patch, and then make a fabric patch that is 1 inch
> bigger all the way around the perimeter, then stich the leather to
> the fabric, and then glue the fabric/leather patch to the airplane.
> I think this might stick better because fabric glues are best suited
> to glue dacron to dacron. I will admit though most airplanes I see
> do have the leather patches just glued on. Some I see are peeling
> off some don't. I have also seen a trick where people will laminate
> a piece of 1/16 plywood between the backside of the fabric, and
> cover the ply to make a fabric-ply-fabric sandwich for cable exits.
> This seems to give the cleanest instalation, but I think the leather
> route looks the most time period correct for a piet.
>
> Probably 100 other methoods of doing it,
> Shad
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
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Subject: | Vi Kapler's Piets |
I'm going to have to have a word with Mr. Kapler about
not using so much dihedral in the wings! ;o) Both those
Piets look to have as close to zero dihedral as I've ever
seen... in fact, the new one looks to have ANhedral.
They both look like one-piece wings, too.
Looks like he has routed the tailwheel steering cables
out the bottom of the tail section rather than the sides.
Not sure I had ever seen that before.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Dan Yocum,
These photos are from Larry William's plane. This is what I did also, but I will
mask-off the leather from being painted. If you strip off your paint I bet you
could do this too.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 31
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Once again, thanks Bill, Hans, Steve and others, your input is invaluable!
What a great resource!
Jack
www.textors.com
I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56
spring data, highlighted.
The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max
compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually
compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible.
The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring
.jpg
<http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_sprin
g.jpg&PhotoID 09> &PhotoID 09
In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt.
There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for full
compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).
Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will take
2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the minimum
slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice.
If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a
1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" -
1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds
per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot
at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel.
But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sum
of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt
(or pin).
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steven
sadler
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use), the
manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that spring,
there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4" because the
spring will be fully compressed already.
I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer
than the spring full compression distance.
Steve in Winnipeg
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:33:00
Message 32
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Thanks Jerry, but don't dig too deep...
Jack Textor
29 SW 58th Drive
Des Moines, IA 50312
www.textors.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY GROGAN
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Jack I think I have a set of the spring gear here at the shop, done you
could look at. I would need to dig a little but we have one made for the
Smith Miniplane. And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But
that is all the spring can traval anyway.
Jerry
Sky Classic Aircraft
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack" <jack@textors.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 6:14 AM
Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>
> Thanks so much to all, valuable input!
> Jack
> www.textors.com
>
>
> Very close, Jeff.
> You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the
> spring.
> Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to
> move
> the full compression of the spring.
> That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be.
>
> Bill C.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jeff
> Boatright
> Sent: Wed 07/10/2009 9:24 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>
>
> I may be off on this, probably am, but it seems to me that the space
> between the spring spirals add up to the entire distance that the
> spring can compress. If so, then that's how long the slot needs to
> be, right?
>
>>
>>
>>Jack I made my shock struts per Bill Reweys drawing for spring
>>struts. The slot is 2.75" long on my struts. I have not flown them
>>yet but with 6" springs this seems like a better slot length. Get
>>the packet of Pietenpol tips and hints direct from Bill.
>>Jim B.
>>
>>Jim Boyer
>>Santa Rosa, CA
>>Pietenpol builder with Corvair
>>
>>Oct 7, 2009 11:44:15 AM, pietenpol-list@matronics.com wrote:
>>
>>All,
>>Can you assist with a question on spring gear? The attached photo
>>is from Tony's book. He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long. Does
>>that sound like enough travel?
>>Thanks,
>>Jack
>>www.textors.com
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 05:18:00
>
>
>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:33:00
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Bill,
Thanks for the information. This is an important subject for me as I intend
to finish putting the springs on my landing gear this weekend. Can you take
a look at my information below and see if I have missed something?
I think we are looking at different springs. The Lamina H-56 and H-56L
springs are shown in different Lamina catalogs and have slightly different
information. The H-56 springs show a maximum allowable deflection of 1.80"
(not the 1.65" I stated earlier - I misread the number) at 1.8 * 10 * 58.4
lbs/0.1 inch = 1051 lbs at full deflection. It is interesting that the
H-56L spring shows a fully compressed length but the H-56 doesn't. The H-56L
appears to have a bit more travel and might actually be a better choice.
My arithmetic shows, for a 2.18" travel @ 58.4" per 1/10" travel: 2.18 * 10
* 58.4 = 1273 lbs at full compression. With two springs, the total available
force before bottoming out will be 2500 lbs+.
Either way, it looks like a hard landing in a 1200 lb airplane will probably
bottom out the springs.
Steve in Winnipeg
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
> I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56
> spring data, highlighted.
> The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max
> compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually
> compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible.
>
> The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing:
>
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring.jpg&PhotoID 09
>
> In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt.
> There is a note that says the slot should be *1/4" x length to allow for
> full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).*
> Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will
> take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the
> minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice.
>
> If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a
> 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" -
> 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds
> per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot
> at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel.
>
> But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sum
> of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt
> (or pin).
>
> Bill C.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *steven sadler
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>
> For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use),
> the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that
> spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4"
> because the spring will be fully compressed already.
>
> I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer
> than the spring full compression distance.
>
> Steve in Winnipeg
>
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Subject: | Javier is back ! |
Very good to see you back on the list Javier ! You have the attention of your
neighbors now when you run you
engine ? Very good !
They probably wonder why an accomplished pilot like yourself who flies jets for
the government would ever want to
build the lowly Pietenpol.
I don't know how many guys I've heard over the years who flew heavy iron, fighter
jets, airliners, and warbirds say
that they were building "A Pietenpol Air Camper". There is something about them.
I can't say I have any more of that gracious gift you gave me when you visited
Brodhead a few years ago but it
certainly gave me reason to toast a classy Pietenpol builder from Mexico !
Keep us posted on your progress and send photos when you can !
Mike C.
Ohio
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Regarding the spring and the slot and the travel:
don't discount the effect of pneumatic tires. If
you are not using motorcycle tires, the pneumatic
effect of donut tires does a lot to dampen the impact
of landing even without the springs. It's hard to
quantify all of those effects in combination, particularly
if you operate off of grass and turf, but there are
airplanes that have no springs, bungees, or other
damping in their landing gear at all... just the tires.
For those who use skinny motorcycle tires, there is
still pneumatic damping and cushion, but it's not as
much of the "Pillsbury Doughboy" or "Michelin Man" effect
that donut tires have, of course.
You can over-analyze this thing, guys! I say, go with
the 2-1/2" or 2-3/4" long slots. If the springs bottom out
before the bolts reach the ends of the slots, the effect is
the same but the springs are probably better able to take a
hard stop at the end of their travel than the slots and
bolts are able to do the same. From there, the tires
will do their part to soften the 'thump' of a solid
landing. And the best advice of all is to operate your
Piet off of grass as much as possible. It is absolutely
heavenly, and makes all of your landings look perfect. I
love the "ssss" of an early morning landing on damp, green
grass!
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | Re: hickory wood |
I don't want no skinny cabanes no sir, how ever I like women with skinny
legs!
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
> eng@canadianrogers.com>
>
>
> For the loads imposed on the cabane struts (only about 50 pounds or so,
> each), ALMOST any type of wood would likely be sufficient. I wrote the
> word "almost" in caps to avoid having anyone following up with wiseguy
> suggestions like using spalted burls for the cabanes (well, that's what
> I would probably do anyway).
> Cabane struts made of Spruce can handle the loads - provided an adequate
> cross-section is used, and the connection details are also properly
> thought out.
> Actually, the connection details are likely more important than the
> species of wood used.
> Substituting wood cabanes for the streamline steel shown in the plans is
> a structural change, so of course, anyone proposing making a change like
> this should either do the calculations themselves (if they are
> qualified), or have them done by someone who is qualified. Don't mess
> with it if you don't know what you're doing.
>
> I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of
> 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube (?) to
> carry the loads imposed on them. But they would look stupid. Visually
> they would not appear to be correct.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
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Subject: | Re: tailwheel springs |
Just like in racing. If you want to be succesful, copy the leaders.
Clif
I think the springs also help eliminate shimmying, although logically
you would think it would increase it. Just think, ALL Cubs, Champs,
Taylorcrafts, Cessnas, etc, etc, etc use them. There MUST be a good
reason.
Gene
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Subject: | Re: hickory wood |
There's nothing wrong with spruce or hemlock.
Ash, hickory etc. are heavy with no real advantage.
The reason for ash use in handles is shock resistance
and, if properly made, shock mitigation to one's hands
and arms. Both of which are across the grain.
Oak and fir are not good choices as the have less
resistance to tearout parallel to the grain.
Go to this message to see analysis- message #40283;
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=57771674?KEYS=cabane?LISTNAME=Pietenpol?HITNUMBER=316?SERIAL=19290813641X?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
Clif
>
> Jorge; I think hickory wood is what is commonly used
> foraxe handles. You can also use ash if you are making
> cabane struts from wood. You could probably also
> use oak.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
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Subject: | Re: hickory wood |
But then you COULD surround them with burl. :-)
Clif
Seneca: "There is no great genius without a tincture of madness."
> I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of
> 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube But they
> would look stupid. >
> Bill C.
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Steve,
You may want to check with a supplier or distributor of Lamina products, but
I think you may be looking at an outdated catalog. I believe Bill pulled
that page from the most recent catalog, dated May 20, 2008, available from
the Anchor Lamina website:
http://www.anchorlamina.com/pdf.d/DieMaxDieSprings.pdf
<http://www.anchorlamina.com/pdf.d/DieMaxDieSprings.pdf>The H56L spring
listed is the only spring shown in any of the current catalogs on the Anchor
Lamina site (that I can find) that is almost identical to the H-56 listings
that I can find in the older catalogs from third party suppliers websites.
Two main differences: they have appended an 'L' to the part name, and the
wire dimensions changed from .225" x .350" for the H56 to .245" x .328" for
the H56L.
The maximum operating deflection of 1.80" for the H56 that you give is at
30% of the free length of the spring. The H56L catalog listing does not give
a value for maximum operating deflection at 30% of the free length; they now
consider 28% of the free length to be the maximum operating deflection,
which for the H56L is 1.68". If you compressed the H56L to 30% of the free
length would the deflection increase 0.12"? I don't know, but I think it's a
moot point because it's pretty close, and because both catalogs make note
that the 28/30% max deflection is for design and informational purposes
only; you wouldn't want to be approaching those values in practical
application. As far as the deflection values at 15% and 20% of free length,
they are exactly the same between the H56 and H56L.
In a nutshell, it would appear to me that the H56 spring became (or has been
superseded by) the H56L, but thankfully they have almost identical operating
properties according to the catalog. Again, give Anchor Lamina or a
distributor a call to be sure. HTH,
Ryan
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 7:19 PM, steven sadler <steven244sadler@gmail.com>wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Thanks for the information. This is an important subject for me as I intend
> to finish putting the springs on my landing gear this weekend. Can you take
> a look at my information below and see if I have missed something?
>
> I think we are looking at different springs. The Lamina H-56 and H-56L
> springs are shown in different Lamina catalogs and have slightly different
> information. The H-56 springs show a maximum allowable deflection of 1.80"
> (not the 1.65" I stated earlier - I misread the number) at 1.8 * 10 * 58.4
> lbs/0.1 inch = 1051 lbs at full deflection. It is interesting that the
> H-56L spring shows a fully compressed length but the H-56 doesn't. The H-56L
> appears to have a bit more travel and might actually be a better choice.
>
> My arithmetic shows, for a 2.18" travel @ 58.4" per 1/10" travel: 2.18 *
> 10 * 58.4 = 1273 lbs at full compression. With two springs, the total
> available force before bottoming out will be 2500 lbs+.
>
> Either way, it looks like a hard landing in a 1200 lb airplane will
> probably bottom out the springs.
>
> Steve in Winnipeg
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>wrote:
>
>> I've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56
>> spring data, highlighted.
>> The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Max
>> compressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actually
>> compress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible.
>>
>> The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing:
>>
>>
>> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring.jpg&PhotoID 09
>>
>> In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt.
>> There is a note that says the slot should be *1/4" x length to allow for
>> full compression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).*
>> Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will
>> take 2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the
>> minimum slot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice.
>>
>> If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a
>> 1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" -
>> 1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 pounds
>> per 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slot
>> at a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel.
>>
>> But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the
>> sum of the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the
>> cross-bolt (or pin).
>>
>> Bill C.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *steven sadler
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:18 PM
>> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>>
>> For a Lamina H-56 spring (a common die spring for small aircraft use),
>> the manufacturer's numbers show a maximum compression of 1.65". For that
>> spring, there isn't any point in making the slot much longer than 1 3/4"
>> because the spring will be fully compressed already.
>>
>> I am thinking that for any spring, you want the slot just slightly longer
>> than the spring full compression distance.
>>
>> Steve in Winnipeg
>>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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Subject: | Re: RE: Front cowling for the pietenpol |
Not to steel any buisness, but Dad has an original Bernard style corvair co
wling he bought and never used, and is looking to sell it.- It is in perf
ect shape, and still in the box I believe.- If anyone is interested let m
e know, and I'll pass any info on to him.- He doesnt want too much for it
, just to recoup some of the cost he bought it for.
-
Shad=0A=0A=0A
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Subject: | Re: hickory wood |
Russell,
There is a feature on the Pietenpol list called the 'do not archive' tag.
I'm sure you have noticed some of list subscribers use it from time to time.
It allows your message to go out to the list and be seen and read by all,
but it does not store a copy of the message in the archive for posterity.
You use this for messages that have no need to be stored in the archives,
usually because they contain no useful information for people that go
searching in the archives for building hints, data, methods and practices,
etc. These may be messages welcoming someone to the list, giving
congratulations for achievements; all sorts of things.
I can, shall we say, guaran-damn-teed you that there is no one - absolutely
no one - who will be searching for information in the archives about wood
cabane struts that will gain anything from reading that you don't want no
skinny cabanes, but you like women with skinny legs. Not a soul. So if such
a message must be sent out, it would be the polite thing to do to just put
'do not archive' at the end of the message, to help out those folks down the
road who are looking for information in the always helpful Pietenpol list
archive. Just a suggestion. Thanks!
Ryan
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Robert Ray <rray032003@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't want no skinny cabanes no sir, how ever I like women with skinny
> legs!
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>wrote:
>
>> eng@canadianrogers.com>
>>
>>
>> For the loads imposed on the cabane struts (only about 50 pounds or so,
>> each), ALMOST any type of wood would likely be sufficient. I wrote the
>> word "almost" in caps to avoid having anyone following up with wiseguy
>> suggestions like using spalted burls for the cabanes (well, that's what
>> I would probably do anyway).
>> Cabane struts made of Spruce can handle the loads - provided an adequate
>> cross-section is used, and the connection details are also properly
>> thought out.
>> Actually, the connection details are likely more important than the
>> species of wood used.
>> Substituting wood cabanes for the streamline steel shown in the plans is
>> a structural change, so of course, anyone proposing making a change like
>> this should either do the calculations themselves (if they are
>> qualified), or have them done by someone who is qualified. Don't mess
>> with it if you don't know what you're doing.
>>
>> I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of
>> 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube (?) to
>> carry the loads imposed on them. But they would look stupid. Visually
>> they would not appear to be correct.
>>
>> Bill C.
>> s List Un/Subscription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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I'm not sure where this thread is going, but more than
40 years ago I caught the scent of a skinny girl pushing
her skateboard down a concrete ramp down in Laredo, Texas
and that was all it took for us to start a relationship
that has taken us through a whole heck of a lot of things,
and situations, and years. Her suntanned legs still look
as good as fine strong wood to me, and when she talks to
me about seeing some long sandy beach in northern Africa or
out in Australia, she sees a beach and a setting sun and
waves rolling in and a fire after dark that we make with
driftwood that months and months at sea have brought to
the shore- and I see a smooth ribbon of sand that I can
put my Pietenpol down on, with just a gentle rumble of
the tires on the sand in the ripples that the waves have
made.
She sees the reflection of the setting sun on miles of
endless waves, coming in from the distant Atlantic ocean
or the deep blue Mediterranean, with camels crossing the
endless desert, while I picture a smooth enough place
between the tide-pools to put the Air Camper down on the
sand and not bounce the landing. We both appreciate the
view, but each of us sees it a bit differently. When the
airplane rolls to a stop, we both see it the same. I
hear the tick-tick-tick of the engine cooling off as I
start the fire to make dinner, she sees it as the hiss of
the waves rolling in from the sea. We pour some wine, we
eat a meal with stars above, and both of our dreams blend
together in perfect harmony of suntanned legs, fabric
covered wings, the stars, a meal, wine, and endless time.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
do not archive
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Subject: | Re: hickory wood |
I'll have to WOW this!
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure where this thread is going, but more than
> 40 years ago I caught the scent of a skinny girl pushing
> her skateboard down a concrete ramp down in Laredo, Texas
> and that was all it took for us to start a relationship
> that has taken us through a whole heck of a lot of things,
> and situations, and years. Her suntanned legs still look
> as good as fine strong wood to me, and when she talks to
> me about seeing some long sandy beach in northern Africa or
> out in Australia, she sees a beach and a setting sun and
> waves rolling in and a fire after dark that we make with
> driftwood that months and months at sea have brought to
> the shore- and I see a smooth ribbon of sand that I can
> put my Pietenpol down on, with just a gentle rumble of
> the tires on the sand in the ripples that the waves have
> made.
>
> She sees the reflection of the setting sun on miles of
> endless waves, coming in from the distant Atlantic ocean
> or the deep blue Mediterranean, with camels crossing the
> endless desert, while I picture a smooth enough place
> between the tide-pools to put the Air Camper down on the
> sand and not bounce the landing. We both appreciate the
> view, but each of us sees it a bit differently. When the
> airplane rolls to a stop, we both see it the same. I
> hear the tick-tick-tick of the engine cooling off as I
> start the fire to make dinner, she sees it as the hiss of
> the waves rolling in from the sea. We pour some wine, we
> eat a meal with stars above, and both of our dreams blend
> together in perfect harmony of suntanned legs, fabric
> covered wings, the stars, a meal, wine, and endless time.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
> do not archive
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Javier is back ! |
Hi Mike , is a pleasure to see that the old Piets (not for the age
:),just on this list) still are here... I am trying to use the spare time
for finish the Piet, and the first thing is update me with all things that
are new on this list.
About your comment, i really don't know, i think that all planes have it
"enchantment" and the Piet have something extra , maybe because is made by
your hands.
I will post the advances here
Thanks for your welcome.
pd .I feel good that the Piets like the Mexican "gifts" ...
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Subject: | Re: hickory wood ok |
soun great tanks oscar for the inform i like to have wood I see pictured fr
om piet finished whit those parts from wood ala ww1 plane stails seyou nex
--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: hickory wood
Jorge; I think hickory wood is what is commonly used
foraxe handles.- You can also use ash if you are making
cabane struts from wood.- You could probably also
use oak.
Speaking of hickory axe handles, and going back to
earlier posts about making the wing tip bows out
of something durable to resist groundloop scrapes,
you could also install axe handle outriggers like
the tri-wing Fokker airplanes had, to do the same
thing.- Sort of like training wheels ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net --- --------
------ --- -
le, List Admin.
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