Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: A first for me (Ken Howe)
2. 08:27 AM - Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
3. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: A first for me (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
4. 08:54 AM - Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings (Doug Dever)
5. 09:25 AM - Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? (Dan Yocum)
6. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Winter flying (Dan Yocum)
7. 11:11 AM - Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol (899PM)
8. 11:24 AM - Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings (Owen Davies)
9. 11:46 AM - Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings (Wayne Bressler)
10. 04:52 PM - Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? (helspersew@aol.com)
11. 05:11 PM - Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? (amsafetyc@aol.com)
12. 05:23 PM - Re: drilling spar in tight places (shad bell)
13. 05:44 PM - engine turning alum, warping (shad bell)
14. 05:53 PM - Stow away in the piet (shad bell)
15. 05:53 PM - Re: engine turning alum, warping (Richard Schreiber)
16. 06:55 PM - Re: drilling spar in tight places (TOM MICHELLE BRANT)
17. 07:10 PM - Re: Winter flying (Don Emch)
18. 07:13 PM - strut stress (Clif Dawson)
19. 07:23 PM - Re: drilling spar in tight places (Clif Dawson)
20. 07:34 PM - Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? (Clif Dawson)
21. 08:24 PM - Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? (Bill Church)
22. 09:33 PM - Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol (tkreiner)
23. 09:46 PM - Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol (coxwelljon)
24. 09:56 PM - Re: strut stress (coxwelljon)
25. 10:13 PM - Re: Stow away in the piet (TOM MICHELLE BRANT)
26. 10:22 PM - Re: Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol (Robert Ray)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: A first for me |
John,
I enjoyed meeting you on your trip through Portland. If you come back this
way again maybe I'll have something to show you on my project. Next step
for me after I get done making ribs will be a fuse mock-up for the
'fit-check'.
Here's some history of the experimental amateur-built classification and
the location of the pub where we met
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/oregon_outlaws.html?c=y&page=1
Ken
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:53:49 +0000, amsafetyc@aol.com wrote:
>
> The 27" wide is really great as a wide glide goes. I highly recommend it.
> Hard to believe and no mock up just the naked grease adventure at Makles
> did the trick. And told me something about the company I keep.
>
> I mean that in the nicest possible way.
>
> Just got home and looking forward to Catoosa week of the 26th all remains
> on schedule on this end
>
> John
>
> John
>
> John
> ------Original Message------
> From: Mark Chunard
> Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> To: Pietenpol builders Board
> ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board
> Sent: Oct 18, 2009 10:30 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A first for me
>
>
> Awesome John! I think that a mock fuse will be one of my winter
projects.
>
> --------
> Mark - working on wings
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268473#268473
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings |
How about the Champion Lancer 402? A fixed gear twin engine Champ? What a funny
looking plane.
Blue Skies
Steve D
35
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: time to cover airplanes/ wings
> I've got to agree with Mike on this one. The Tri-Champ is just a
> horrifically bad mod of a really nice design.
>
> At least with the Tri-Pod it is so ugly and quirky that it sort of
> comesback around to being cute again; like an ugly red-headed
> stepchild. I have a
> good number of hours in a Tri-Pacer (maybe not 200+, but plenty),
> and it is
> great airplane. It is a tremendous value for a four place 'gettin
> around'airplane. And it is kinda cool in it's own ugly way. The
> Tri-Champ....it's
> just a shame. I just feel bad for the airplane looking at one. :P
>
> G'nite all!
>
> Ryan
>
> In noisy, corrupt, crime-ridden Chicago Illinois
>
> do not archive
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Doug Dever <wrote:
>
> > You have a point. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, In
> > 200+hrs of holding the yoke of a Tri-Pacer I found no beauty in looking at
> > it, but found great beauty in the fact that it got me off the ground. And
> > the bomb proof nose gear saved my a** at least once.
> >
> > Doug Dever
> > In beautiful Stow Ohio
> >
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: A first for me |
Ken,
I too enjoyed the meeting and am looking forward to seeing your progress.
As I have said in the past Piet peeps as the best, meeting you has again
proven that.
I suspect that now we have a plant in modification mode I will be out more
frequently, which means you'll have to get building your donkey off.
I am sure Ill be back soon.
John
Do not archive
In a message dated 10/19/2009 10:14:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ken@cooper-mtn.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Howe <ken@cooper-mtn.com>
John,
I enjoyed meeting you on your trip through Portland. If you come back this
way again maybe I'll have something to show you on my project. Next step
for me after I get done making ribs will be a fuse mock-up for the
'fit-check'.
Here's some history of the experimental amateur-built classification and
the location of the pub where we met
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/oregon_outlaws.html?c=y&page=1
Ken
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:53:49 +0000, amsafetyc@aol.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: amsafetyc@aol.com
>
> The 27" wide is really great as a wide glide goes. I highly recommend it.
> Hard to believe and no mock up just the naked grease adventure at Makles
> did the trick. And told me something about the company I keep.
>
> I mean that in the nicest possible way.
>
> Just got home and looking forward to Catoosa week of the 26th all remains
> on schedule on this end
>
> John
>
> John
>
> John
> ------Original Message------
> From: Mark Chunard
> Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> To: Pietenpol builders Board
> ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board
> Sent: Oct 18, 2009 10:30 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A first for me
>
>
> Awesome John! I think that a mock fuse will be one of my winter
projects.
>
> --------
> Mark - working on wings
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268473#268473
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | time to cover airplanes/ wings |
I have to agree w/you on the Milk Stool. It kinda grew on you. And I neve
r over shot a landing with it=2C especially with the added drag of floats.
It made a better speed boat than airplane on floats though.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: time to cover airplanes/ wings
From: rmueller23@gmail.com
I've got to agree with Mike on this one. The Tri-Champ is just a horrifical
ly bad mod of a really nice design.
At least with the Tri-Pod it is so ugly and quirky that it sort of comes ba
ck around to being cute again=3B like an ugly red-headed stepchild. I have
a good number of hours in a Tri-Pacer (maybe not 200+=2C but plenty)=2C and
it is great airplane. It is a tremendous value for a four place 'gettin ar
ound' airplane. And it is kinda cool in it's own ugly way. The Tri-Champ...
.it's just a shame. I just feel bad for the airplane looking at one. :P
G'nite all!
Ryan
In noisy=2C corrupt=2C crime-ridden Chicago Illinois
do not archive
On Sun=2C Oct 18=2C 2009 at 1:05 PM=2C Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.
com> wrote:
You have a point. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However=2C In 20
0+hrs of holding the yoke of a Tri-Pacer I found no beauty in looking at it
=2C but found great beauty in the fact that it got me off the ground. And
the bomb proof nose gear saved my a** at least once.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? |
Hi all,
Anyone on here from EAA Chapter 1218 in Missouri?
I just ran across their Pietenpol build pages and am flabbergasted -
they started builing on April 28th and covered it in early September! WOW!
http://www.eaa1218.org/index.php/chapter-projects/37-pietenpol
It's also the biggest vertical stabilizer I've ever seen on a Piet
(well, except for that Piet on floats up in Canada).
And side doors - it's got side doors!
Cheers,
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Winter flying |
Hey Don,
If you get around to it, take some more pictures of Frank's skis, maybe
with a tape measure held up to 'em. They don't look too hard to make,
but I'd like some dimensions...
I'll probably be nutty enough to go flying this winter a few times...
Thanks,
Dan
Don Emch wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> The skiis are borrowed from Frank Pavliga. I've used them the last two winters.
I might be pushing it to borrow them again this winter! Frank bought the
old bottoms and made a pylon type of structure to fit. They really are fairly
simple and someday I intend to draw up some prints for them and make a set for
myself. When I do I'll post them on here.
>
> Here is a closer shot of them...
>
> http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/skiflyin_005.jpg
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266348#266348
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol |
Disregarding buckling strength and related issues.....
As a point of reference. 1" OD 4130 normalized tubing with .049 wall has a sectional
area of .149 sq. inches. Per Wicks 4130 link....the normalized tubing has
a tensile strength of 95,000psi. Do the math and you get 14,155 pounds pull
per strut.
--------
PAPA MIKE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268571#268571
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings |
Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB wrote:
> How about the Champion Lancer 402? A fixed gear twin engine Champ? What a funny
looking plane.
And apparently a "champ" in the air. Someone, it may have been Bud
Davisson, wrote a flight review of it. The title was, "I Flew the
Lancer...And Lived!"
Owen
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: time to cover airplanes/ wings |
No... The lancer was a cool looking plane. It would have been cooler
as a taildragger, though.
http://www.aerotraining.com/html_gif/champion_lancer.jpg
I can't think of many planes that shouldn't have been taildraggers.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
> NGB" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
>
> How about the Champion Lancer 402? A fixed gear twin engine Champ?
> What a funny looking plane.
> Blue Skies
> Steve D
> 35
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? |
Dan,
I am sitting here scratching my head looking at those pictures. Nothing I
see looks like a Pietenpol to me. Am I crazy? This is NOT a Pietenpol.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
Sent: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 11:25 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol?
Hi all,
Anyone on here from EAA Chapter 1218 in Missouri?
I just ran across their Pietenpol build pages and am flabbergasted - they
started builing on April 28th and covered it in early September! WOW!
http://www.eaa1218.org/index.php/chapter-projects/37-pietenpol
It's also the biggest vertical stabilizer I've ever seen on a Piet (well,
except for that Piet on floats up in Canada).
And side doors - it's got side doors!
Cheers,
Dan
-- Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
========================
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? |
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IA0KDQo
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: drilling spar in tight places |
The best way to drill spars is lying flat on your drill press, and use the
fittings as drill guides.- After drilling 8 spars for my Jungster 1 Bipla
ne I still had butterflies in my stomach drilling the last one.- Double,
tripple, check all measurements and layouts before drilling those pricey sp
ars.-- Also try to lay-out your-spars on your bench etc (or in your
head if you have a picture perfect mind), and phisically see where all the
fittings go, and mark them and drill them accordingly.- When drilling, I
drilled the 1st hole using the spar fitting clamped tight to the spar, as
a drill guide.- After drilling the 1st hole I placed a bolt through the f
itting and spar to hold it in position, then drill the hole at the other en
d of the fitting, and do the same.- Now the fitting is "locked in place a
nd won't move on you, simply drill the remaing holes, then make sure the fi
tting on the other face of the spars lines up, if so then, un pucker and
relax, the spar is drilled.- If not get away from your airplane before y
ou get really mad and throw something and break something else.......But se
riously, drill any and all holes that can be drilled, on a drill press, the
y will be nice clean and square, oh yea don't forget a backup block so the
spar doesn't split out on the back side of the hole.
-
Long winded again,
Shad=0A=0A=0A
Message 13
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| Subject: | engine turning alum, warping |
Jack, I have messed around with engine turning a couple times with-"down
time projects" at work.- We have 2 inch scotch brite wheels that go in th
e special arbor, wheel.- How do you keep the piece from warping from the
localized heat?- It seems this makes the aluminum harder, and more likely
to crack.- My technique probably needs refined I imagine.- Just courio
us, might want to turn something in the future.
-
Shad=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo
p://mail.yahoo.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Stow away in the piet |
I went flying this evening and after about 20 min realized I had a stow awa
y, or a hi-jacker on board.- Flying over the farm where my wife voulentee
rs I looked up and saw a big(about the size of a quarter)-black wolf spid
er swimming in the fuel gauge!- It must have been in the fuel nozzle when
I filled it up last week, or it unscrewwed the cap climbed in and put the
cap back on.- Hey now that I read this, it makes a good halloween story..
let's see......snakes on a plane, fuel diving spiders, hmmmmm?
Shad=0A=0A=0A
Message 15
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| Subject: | engine turning alum, warping |
Shad,
The time and pressure that is needed to apply the turning is very minimal. There
is no localized heat issue to worry about.
Rick Schreiber,
Valparaiso, IN
----- Original Message -----
From: shad bell
Sent: 10/19/2009 7:46:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine turning alum, warping
Jack, I have messed around with engine turning a couple times with "down time projects"
at work. We have 2 inch scotch brite wheels that go in the special arbor,
wheel. How do you keep the piece from warping from the localized heat?
It seems this makes the aluminum harder, and more likely to crack. My technique
probably needs refined I imagine. Just courious, might want to turn something
in the future.
Shad
______________________________________
Message 16
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| Subject: | drilling spar in tight places |
Shad=2C
Thanks - this was occuring to me the other night as I laid out the center s
ection.. As you suggest=2C I will get my fittings made first and use them
as a guide. I can understand the pucker factor - every time I handle the s
pars=2C I'm not nervous=2C just have a greater amount of "respect" for that
material.
Tom B.
From: aviatorbell@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drilling spar in tight places
The best way to drill spars is lying flat on your drill press=2C and use th
e fittings as drill guides. After drilling 8 spars for my Jungster 1 Bipla
ne I still had butterflies in my stomach drilling the last one. Double=2C
tripple=2C check all measurements and layouts before drilling those pricey
spars. Also try to lay out your spars on your bench etc (or in your head
if you have a picture perfect mind)=2C and phisically see where all the fit
tings go=2C and mark them and drill them accordingly. When drilling=2C I d
rilled the 1st hole using the spar fitting clamped tight to the spar=2C as
a drill guide. After drilling the 1st hole I placed a bolt through the fit
ting and spar to hold it in position=2C then drill the hole at the other en
d of the fitting=2C and do the same. Now the fitting is "locked in place a
nd won't move on
you=2C simply drill the remaing holes=2C then make sure the fitting on the
other face of the spars lines up=2C if so then=2C un pucker and relax=2C t
he spar is drilled. If not get away from your airplane before you get real
ly mad and throw something and break something else.......But seriously=2C
drill any and all holes that can be drilled=2C on a drill press=2C they wil
l be nice clean and square=2C oh yea don't forget a backup block so the spa
r doesn't split out on the back side of the hole.
Long winded again=2C
Shad
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| Subject: | Re: Winter flying |
Hey Dan...
I'll do that. I know he's gonna ask for those things before too long. I'll get
out to the hangar and bring them home. Just this weekend I was thinking about
trying to make some before winter gets here. That means I'll have to draw
up some drawings for them. Before that though I'll take some pictures and post
them on here. I'll try to get you the important measurements.
Every Pietenpoler really should make ski flying a requirement!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268629#268629
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These pages are from Engineering for the Amateur
Aircraft Builder by Raoul Hoffman.
I finaly scanned them for you guys strutting about.
Don't go crosseyed now! :-)
Clif
"The greatest athlete I ever saw, pound for pound, slept beside my bed
and drank out of my toilet."
ANON
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| Subject: | Re: drilling spar in tight places |
What you see here is one of those little benchtop drill presses
sitting on my flat and level building bench. With a spar you can
block up the far end of the spar and use the DP table to level
the spar till it's 90=B0 to the drill bit. I would put a long house
building level on the spar and once leveled turn the level
around and check again. If there's a difference then 1/2
that difference is level. The most important, though, is that
the drill is 90=B0 to the plank regardless of how level the thing is
or isn't.
Clif
"Originality is the art of concealing your source." ~ Thomas Edison
The best way to drill spars is lying flat on your drill press,
and use the fittings as drill guides. . Double, tripple, check all
measurements and layouts before drilling those pricey spars. Long
winded again,
Shad
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| Subject: | Re: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? |
Looks like a Piet wing to me. Look at the airfoil shape also.
Interesting to see how it flies with that huge tail.
Clif
Dan,
I am sitting here scratching my head looking at those pictures.
Nothing I see looks like a Pietenpol to me. Am I crazy? This is NOT a
Pietenpol.
Dan Helsper
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| Subject: | Chapter 1218 Pietenpol? |
I'm with you, dan.
That tail... UGH!
Looks like they decided to make the tail out of steel tube, but
something went awry. YUK.
Some things shouldn't be messed with.
Personally, I don't like the look of the vertical fin faired into the
fuselage on a Pietenpol. But that's just my opinion. Well, I'm probably
not the only one who thinks that (I hope).
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of
helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Mon 19/10/2009 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Chapter 1218 Pietenpol?
Dan,
I am sitting here scratching my head looking at those pictures. Nothing
I see looks like a Pietenpol to me. Am I crazy? This is NOT a Pietenpol.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol |
Guys,
As a Consulting Mechanical Engineer, I'm going to jump in here, and make a few
observations, as not all of us have the same background.
When a stressed member is being discussed, it might be helpful to add the equations
needed so anyone can use them in the future. In the case of the struts being
discussed, we have several concepts which, although understood by engineers
and those really familiar with the issue being discussed, can become confusing
and/or confused.
First, the Yield Strength of 4130 is somewhat less than the 95,000 psi given.
It turns out that 95,000 psi is generally given as the Ultimate Strength of 4130.
The Yield Strength, however, defined to be that level of stress at which
permanent deformation (stretching) takes place, is around 75,000 psi. (When doing
stress calculations, most engineers will use the Yield Strength, not the
Ultimate, or breaking strength. We not only don't want the member to permanently
stretch, we damn sure don't want it to break. )
The equation describing the strength of any member in tension, and a limited amount
of cases in compression, is:
s = P/A, where s is the Yield Strength, P is the load in pounds, and A is
the cross-sectional area of the member.
In the case of the strut in the discussion, we are looking for the load the member
will carry, so we rearrange the equation, then "plug & chug" to get:
P = s x A = 75,000 x .149 = 11,175 pounds.
This will work very nicely in the case of a member being loaded in tension. If
that member is a slender bar, shaft, tube, etc., however, column buckling equations
come into play.
If the member is a strut at an angle.... we must first apply a little Trig to determine
the vector load on the member prior to determining the load carrying
capacity of that member.
Hope this helps.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268647#268647
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| Subject: | Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol |
Thanks for that explanation. My own understanding of architectural structures
tells me that this member is going to be critical in compression. I will work
out the angles in cad and measure where the jury struts attach based on the way
my wings are built. I believe the main reason for the jury struts is to shorten
the L/R ratio for the strut action in compression.
Thanks again
--------
Jon Coxwell
Recycle and preserve the planet
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| Subject: | Re: strut stress |
Cliff,
Thanks! That makes life a little easier .
--------
Jon Coxwell
Recycle and preserve the planet
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| Subject: | Stow away in the piet |
good thing wolf man didn't find his way into the fuel line feeding the carb
- that would have been a scary halloween story.
Tom B.
Do not archive
From: aviatorbell@yahoo.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stow away in the piet
I went flying this evening and after about 20 min realized I had a stow awa
y=2C or a hi-jacker on board. Flying over the farm where my wife voulentee
rs I looked up and saw a big(about the size of a quarter) black wolf spider
swimming in the fuel gauge! It must have been in the fuel nozzle when I f
illed it up last week=2C or it unscrewwed the cap climbed in and put the ca
p back on. Hey now that I read this=2C it makes a good halloween story..le
t's see......snakes on a plane=2C fuel diving spiders=2C hmmmmm?
Shad
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: lift struts for GN-1 /Pietenpol |
What I've read is the struts beome much stronger in compression
with jury struts. Perhaps twice as strong.
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:46 AM, coxwelljon <coxwelljon@frontiernet.net>wrote:
> coxwelljon@frontiernet.net>
>
> Thanks for that explanation. My own understanding of architectural
> structures tells me that this member is going to be critical in compression.
> I will work out the angles in cad and measure where the jury struts attach
> based on the way my wings are built. I believe the main reason for the jury
> struts is to shorten the L/R ratio for the strut action in compression.
>
> Thanks again
>
> --------
> Jon Coxwell
> Recycle and preserve the planet
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268648#268648
>
>
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