Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:53 AM - Re: And the real work begins... (Jack Phillips)
2. 04:03 AM - 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight (helspersew@aol.com)
3. 04:15 AM - Re: some thoughts (Jack)
4. 05:03 AM - Re: 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight (Jack Phillips)
5. 06:17 AM - Re: And the real work begins... (Jerry Dotson)
6. 06:48 AM - NEW HOME FOR NX510JD (Jerry Dotson)
7. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Michael Perez)
8. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Michael Perez)
9. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Gary Boothe)
10. 07:15 AM - Re: some thoughts (Jack Phillips)
11. 07:16 AM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Michael Perez)
12. 07:51 AM - Re: And the real work begins... (Ken Howe)
13. 07:51 AM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Michael Perez)
14. 07:51 AM - Re: some thoughts (Gary Boothe)
15. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Michael Perez)
16. 08:56 AM - Re: some thoughts (Jack Phillips)
17. 09:05 AM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Doug Dever)
18. 09:06 AM - Re: some thoughts (Dan Yocum)
19. 10:13 AM - Re: 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight (Lagowski Morrow)
20. 10:23 AM - Re: some thoughts (K5YAC)
21. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: some thoughts (Jack Phillips)
22. 11:54 AM - Re: some thoughts (K5YAC)
23. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: some thoughts (John Recine)
24. 12:09 PM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Matt Redmond)
25. 12:34 PM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (David Paule)
26. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (H RULE)
27. 01:11 PM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Doug Dever)
28. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: And the real work begins... (Ben Charvet)
29. 01:42 PM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (VAHOWDY@aol.com)
30. 01:43 PM - Re: Re: And the real work begins... (Tim Willis)
31. 03:05 PM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Billy McCaskill)
32. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Matt Redmond)
33. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: some thoughts (John Hofmann)
34. 06:24 PM - Model A head (Lawrence Williams)
35. 07:10 PM - Re: Model A head (Jeff Boatright)
36. 07:51 PM - Re: Model A head (Ryan Mueller)
37. 07:51 PM - Re: Model A head ()
38. 11:00 PM - Re: Model A head (Billy McCaskill)
Message 1
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| Subject: | And the real work begins... |
Looking good, Ben! I can hardly wait for a full report of your first
flight.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: And the real work begins...
Glad to hear someone is building.....and a new thread has started.
Building ribs is a good test of your stamina to complete the project. I
believe you can get all your rib gussets from a 2ft x 4ft piece of
aircraft plywood, that can be shipped cheaply from Aircraft Spruce.
That is what I did. Just be sure to sand the plywood before you cut it
up so the T-88 will adhere well. I used the little 3/8 inch aircraft
nails to hold the gussets in place.
On another note, just finished up my paperwork package for my
Airworthiness Certificate. Hang in there, it only took me 5 years
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
Message 2
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| Subject: | 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight |
>From the diary of Orville Wright:
Monday, October 26, 1903
Kitty Hawk, N.C.
A breeze of 6 to 8 meters blowing from west at 9 o'clock. Dan did not turn
up all today. We worked on truss wires big machine this morning, but afte
rnoon the wind veered to north and we spent about two hours on Big Hill at
tempting to soar. We succeeded in breaking our former record six times out
of about 20 attempts. These records were as follows:
OW 1 min. 5 1/2 sec.
WW 1 " 4 1/5 "
WW 1 " 7 3/5 "
WW 1 " 7 2/5 "
OW 1 " 11 4/5 "
WW 1 " 9 1/2 "
Wind speed during last two glides was probably about 13 meters per second
at point of starting and about 8 or 9 meters near point of landing. These
glides covered a distance of from 450 to 500 feet (not measured). Wind re
cord taken just after last glide was:
Top (of) hill 244 meters in
20 sec.
260 "
" 20 "
256 "
" 20 sec.
Near bottom 174 meters in 20
"
In one of my glides when up at a considerable distance the wind suddenly
struck the top of the surface, jerking the machine clear away from under
me excepting my hold on the front rudder bar. Winds frequently shifted 45
or more degrees in a second or two, sometimes two or three times in a gli
de. Most of the glides were not so high as those of last Wednesday. In Wil
l's last glide he says he met with very little wind up 25 or 30 feet towar
ds bottom of hill but on dropping to about 10 ft. from ground met with a
strong wind with, apparently, a slightly downward trend. In running along
under him I encountered a strong wind the entire time. Will proposed toda
y the idea of working front instead of rear edge of surfaces in end contro
l, thus overcoming, probably, the difficulties we have had, when quarterin
g, in lifting the forward wing. Wind at seven o'clock is blowing 13 meters
at camp, but air is not so cold as last night.
do not archive
Message 3
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Douwe,
Excellent post and great progress. I many times have stated I'm 50% done
and 95% to go...thanks! Also decided to not use my web site as signature, I
think it promotes a lot of spam.
Jack
DSM
Do not archive
Subject: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
It's funny how the last mile of the marathon seems longer than the rest.
I'm in the final mile with the piet, and my list of "little tidbits" seems
miles long, and the little jobs that appear simple often end up being
surprisingly hard.
I just finished the cockpit coamings. Two weeks ago I went out to the
workshop one morning thinking "I"ll do the coamings today, that'll be a fun
and rewarding afternoon job". Two weeks later I'm finishing up. Not all
that time was working on it, but what I thought was an afternoon job, ended
up taking me probably three days.
I also have to be really disciplined with myself not to rush through these
things, as so many are cosmetic, and though not structurally important, are
the items that I will see everytime I look at my Piet. But let me also say
for those who are in earlier in their projects, IT'S ALL WORTH IT!!!!KEEP
GOING!!! TRY TO TOUCH IT EVERY DAY, EVEN IF IT'S FOR TEN MINUTES!!!
I also want to write about something I've been thinking about for the last
couple of years.
Let me encourage all of you who can, to fly your Piet to Brodhead each year,
and once there, to fly it often. Dreamy-eyed enthusiasts come from all over
this country and the world to see Piets flying. There are many builders, or
wanna be builders who have never even seen a real Piet, let alone seen one
fly. As I"m sure most of you know, the sight of the Pietenpols flying at
Brodhead is a powerful shot in the arm of encouragement to dozens to keep
building for another year. I seriously doubt that I would be finishing my
plane if it weren't for my annual pilgrimage to Brodhead.
I have been struck at the last two Brodheads, that while there ended up
being a good turnout, there was noticably less flying than in years past. I
attributed it to the lack of fuel these last two yeras, and some very
worn-out pilots this year. However, please remember what it was like when
you were building and dreaming of the day when your project would take wing.
Don't forget how hard you ran after each taxing plane just to watch it lift
off, or how you shot dozen of photographs of it landing, and how much that
first ride meant. If every pilot did two or three short flights each day,
this would add up to a LOT of flying and encouragement.
I pray that when mine is done, it is reliable enough for me to get up there
and serve my brother and sister builders as others have served me through
the years by treating them to the unforgettable sights and sounds of this
magnificent flying machine from a bygone era patrolling the beautiful skies
of Brodhead.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08:10:00
Message 4
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| Subject: | 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight |
Thanks, Dan. Keep posting these diary entries. I'm really enjoying them.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight
>From the diary of Orville Wright:
Monday, October 26, 1903
Kitty Hawk, N.C.
A breeze of 6 to 8 meters blowing from west at 9 o'clock. Dan did not turn
up all today. We worked on truss wires big machine this morning, but
afternoon the wind veered to north and we spent about two hours on Big Hill
attempting to soar. We succeeded in breaking our former record six times out
of about 20 attempts. These records were as follows:
OW 1 min. 5 1/2 sec.
WW 1 " 4 1/5 "
WW 1 " 7 3/5 "
WW 1 " 7 2/5 "
OW 1 " 11 4/5 "
WW 1 " 9 1/2 "
Wind speed during last two glides was probably about 13 meters per second at
point of starting and about 8 or 9 meters near point of landing. These
glides covered a distance of from 450 to 500 feet (not measured). Wind
record taken just after last glide was:
Top (of) hill 244 meters in 20
sec.
260 "
" 20 "
256 "
" 20 sec.
Near bottom 174 meters in 20
"
In one of my glides when up at a considerable distance the wind suddenly
struck the top of the surface, jerking the machine clear away from under me
excepting my hold on the front rudder bar. Winds frequently shifted 45 or
more degrees in a second or two, sometimes two or three times in a glide.
Most of the glides were not so high as those of last Wednesday. In Will's
last glide he says he met with very little wind up 25 or 30 feet towards
bottom of hill but on dropping to about 10 ft. from ground met with a strong
wind with, apparently, a slightly downward trend. In running along under him
I encountered a strong wind the entire time. Will proposed today the idea of
working front instead of rear edge of surfaces in end control, thus
overcoming, probably, the difficulties we have had, when quartering, in
lifting the forward wing. Wind at seven o'clock is blowing 13 meters at
camp, but air is not so cold as last night.
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: And the real work begins... |
Ben,
I used 2 each 2 x 4 sheets from Aircraft Spruce. If you have access to a CNC router
with 0.050" router bits I will send you the DXF file and also the
G-code to cut them. The code is just enough for 1 rib. Just press the start button
about 30 times and they will all be cut. I am referring to the
plywood gussets.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
Ribs all done
using Lycoming O-235
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269457#269457
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00105_289.jpg
Message 6
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| Subject: | NEW HOME FOR NX510JD |
My hangar is finally finished.( 40 X 50 ) If I can now get power, air and water
out there to it I can get started assembly on that 1 piece wing. No wait...need
a 30 foot long work bench, light fixtures, etc. I am just proud to finally
get it built. The contractor was about 2 months late getting started.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
Ribs and tailfeathers done
using Lycoming O-235
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269462#269462
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/335_961.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Thank you Ivan. I see I am not alone in changing the Pietenpol to suit my o
wn personal need/wants.
-
I do not mind people who disagree with me...discussion is the best way to c
ome up with new ideas and solutions. (if there is a problem to begin with.)
- I don't like the ones who nothing intelligent to say, or have no facts
to share to back up their claims.- Other then that, I welcome all replies
.
--- On Sun, 10/25/09, ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs> wrote:
From: ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
I see it exactly the opposite of you. The main reason to consider (I'm not
saying build) deviating from the plans is to honor the B. Pietenpol spirit
of always build safer and better flying aircraft. There is no need to cure
the deficiency in the design, reason enough is to make B.P. happy in heaven
s, as he is known not to build two exactly the same aircraft and to be as f
ar from "purist" as he can be. After all he abandoned one of the most signi
ficant marks of his design (Ford engine) as soon as he got a chance to do i
t. I deeply beleive if he can see someone building Piet with Ford enigne in
2009 he would think for him self "Oh, no, another ..... building by the pl
ans".
The amount of hate in the form "Oh, I just flew my Piet, and you morons tal
k about something better instead to build by the plans like me" is getting
quite disturbing. There is no wonder people got annoyed. There is no single
thread in which some deviation from the plans is mentioned that is not rap
idly shut with flood of "Why, why, why, when this design confirmed it self
for 80 years?" messegaes. To honor B.P, is there any other reason needed?
Regards,
and please don't mind the rough tone, I got excited how this thread is cut
of, and I am very interested in building with pushrods for several reasons,
Ivan Todorovic
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Bill, I respect you replies to may various questions.-You make very good
points in you post below. It is becoming clear to me that this is not a sim
ple matter of replacing the cables with tubes. Although for the life of me,
I struggle with that...how hard can it be!?
-
A good point you made which I never thought of...which is exactly how I usu
ally think...since over the 80 years of this plane, very, very few use tube
s, it may be because it is not such a great idea.- The last issue of the
Broadhead Newsletter shows tubes on a Piet...a steel fuse Piet.
-
Thanks for your input Bill.
--- On Sun, 10/25/09, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
>
This will be my last comment on this thread.
First off, Michael, if you follow through with a push/pull system, you will
not be the first. It has been done before. Refer to the following link for
a photo of a GN-1 with such a system:
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Pete%20Smith/Brodhead__20070720_028.JPG
Note that the control tube for the rudder is not tiny. The control tube for
the elevators is likely buried inside the fuselage, and the elevators are
most likely built of steel tube, in order to be able to transfer the torque
adequately. My thoughts are that if this system was an improvement, we wou
ld see more flying examples of it. Just because it has been done does not m
ean it's a good idea.
Secondly, all of the "opinions" that have been expressed regarding the nega
tive aspects of attempting to use a push/pull system on this aircraft have
been based on sound engineering principles. The reason why nobody has offer
ed data to prove your theory wrong is that your "system" has no data behind
it. There are no dimensions to work with. Not even a basic sketch. There a
re often a thousand ways to achieve the same basic goal, with some being be
tter than others, but no one being the "right" way. For instance, as one re
ply stated, the proper size for the tubes is dependent on the length, in re
ference to buckling strength.
Thirdly, unless someone out there decides that they want to do all the calc
ulations for you, you will eventually have to deal with all of that "langua
ge and formulas" that, as you put it, are "over your head". As I said befor
e, it's not simple. Once the routing of the system is determined (including
all pivot points), you will need to determine the loads that will be impos
ed on the system (plus an appropriate factor of safety). From there you wil
l be able to determine the loads that will be carried by each component, an
d based on those numbers, you will determine the sizes of each component. (
There's a reason why it takes four years of university to obtain a degree i
n Engineering).
And finally, all of the above is my OPINION. But my opinion is based on mor
e than twenty years experience working as a Professional Engineer. Take it
or leave it.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269403#269403
le, List Admin.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
".I see I am not alone in changing the Pietenpol to suit my own personal
need/wants."
Those are words I can live with. Change - Yes, Improve - NO. Have you
checked out www.cpc-world.com <http://www.cpc-world.com/> ? You will see an
excellent job of incorporating push rods.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(15 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
Thank you Ivan. I see I am not alone in changing the Pietenpol to suit my
own personal need/wants.
I do not mind people who disagree with me...discussion is the best way to
come up with new ideas and solutions. (if there is a problem to begin with.)
I don't like the ones who nothing intelligent to say, or have no facts to
share to back up their claims. Other then that, I welcome all replies.
--- On Sun, 10/25/09, ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs> wrote:
From: ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tosha@sezampro.rs> >
I see it exactly the opposite of you. The main reason to consider (I'm not
saying build) deviating from the plans is to honor the B. Pietenpol spirit
of always build safer and better flying aircraft. There is no need to cure
the deficiency in the design, reason enough is to make B.P. happy in
heavens, as he is known not to build two exactly the same aircraft and to be
as far from "purist" as he can be. After all he abandoned one of the most
significant marks of his design (Ford engine) as soon as he got a chance to
do it. I deeply beleive if he can see someone building Piet with Ford enigne
in 2009 he would think for him self "Oh, no, another ..... building by the
plans".
The amount of hate in the form "Oh, I just flew my Piet, and you morons talk
about something better instead to build by the plans like me" is getting
quite disturbing. There is no wonder people got annoyed. There is no single
thread in which some deviation from the plans is mentioned that is not
rapidly shut with flood of "Why, why, why, when this design confirmed it
self for 80 years?" messegaes. To honor B.P, is there any other reason
needed?
Regards,
and please don't mind the rough tone, I got excited how this thread is cut
of, and I am very interested in building with pushrods for several reasons,
Ivan Todorovic
Message 10
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Douwe, you are right about the fact that one of the things that has produced
fewer Pietenpol flights at Brodhead recently being fatigue. For me at
least, that fatigue has been brought on by bad weather.
Last year (2008) I had planned to fly my Pietenpol there on Thursday, so I
would have Friday to rest and be fresh for flying on Saturday. For me the
trip is 650 nautical miles, with the first third of that flying over the
Appalachian Mountains. Thursday's weather was bad, and I couldn't fly, so
Friday I made the entire trip in one day - 12 hours of flying (averaging 27
knots groundspeed crossing the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia), taking off
from Raleigh at dawn and landing at Brodhead just before sunset. I did hop
a few rides on Saturday last year, in spite of my butt protesting at sitting
in that cockpit again.
This year I planned to leave on Tuesday and take my time getting there, to
arrive by Wednesday evening. It took me 3 days to get there, spending all
day Wednesday trying to cross the West Virginia / Virginia border (a 4,000'
ridge). I finally arrived at noon on Friday. But the primary reason I only
hopped 2 rides on Saturday was the crosswinds that lashed the field most of
Saturday. Flying a Pietenpol in crosswinds like that is just work, and not
much fun, particularly when you are tired.
It will be a while before I fly mine to Brodhead again. My wife is not very
happy when I fly it over the mountains. I was able to use the excuse of
wanting to be there for the 80th anniversary, but it will be a while before
I make the trip again with the Pietenpol. I'll still go to Brodhead, but
I'll probably use the RV-4. Much cheaper on gas and able to outrun weather.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 10:19 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
It's funny how the last mile of the marathon seems longer than the rest.
I'm in the final mile with the piet, and my list of "little tidbits" seems
miles long, and the little jobs that appear simple often end up being
surprisingly hard.
I just finished the cockpit coamings. Two weeks ago I went out to the
workshop one morning thinking "I"ll do the coamings today, that'll be a fun
and rewarding afternoon job". Two weeks later I'm finishing up. Not all
that time was working on it, but what I thought was an afternoon job, ended
up taking me probably three days.
I also have to be really disciplined with myself not to rush through these
things, as so many are cosmetic, and though not structurally important, are
the items that I will see everytime I look at my Piet. But let me also say
for those who are in earlier in their projects, IT'S ALL WORTH IT!!!!KEEP
GOING!!! TRY TO TOUCH IT EVERY DAY, EVEN IF IT'S FOR TEN MINUTES!!!
I also want to write about something I've been thinking about for the last
couple of years.
Let me encourage all of you who can, to fly your Piet to Brodhead each year,
and once there, to fly it often. Dreamy-eyed enthusiasts come from all over
this country and the world to see Piets flying. There are many builders, or
wanna be builders who have never even seen a real Piet, let alone seen one
fly. As I"m sure most of you know, the sight of the Pietenpols flying at
Brodhead is a powerful shot in the arm of encouragement to dozens to keep
building for another year. I seriously doubt that I would be finishing my
plane if it weren't for my annual pilgrimage to Brodhead.
I have been struck at the last two Brodheads, that while there ended up
being a good turnout, there was noticably less flying than in years past. I
attributed it to the lack of fuel these last two yeras, and some very
worn-out pilots this year. However, please remember what it was like when
you were building and dreaming of the day when your project would take wing.
Don't forget how hard you ran after each taxing plane just to watch it lift
off, or how you shot dozen of photographs of it landing, and how much that
first ride meant. If every pilot did two or three short flights each day,
this would add up to a LOT of flying and encouragement.
I pray that when mine is done, it is reliable enough for me to get up there
and serve my brother and sister builders as others have served me through
the years by treating them to the unforgettable sights and sounds of this
magnificent flying machine from a bygone era patrolling the beautiful skies
of Brodhead.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
David, you make a good point. I know next to nothing on making this change.
I am gathering information to do so, as I have stated many, many times. If
it proves to be too involved, too heavy, too expensive, too math intensive
, etc. then I will not bother. Originally, again, as I have said before, I
had hopped someone that had "been there, done that" would post a real world
"for" or "against" response.
-
As you all have seen, some good info has been posted and the usual worthles
s posts.- I try to weed out the facts from the knee jerk reactions and ex
tract useful, intelligent information. As I sit here typing this, I am lean
ing towards just having a push/pull tube from the stick to the elevator bel
l crank, cables everywhere else.-
-
Still, I am yet to have my original question answered. (well, those who hav
e posted the calculations/formulas have really helped a lot...thank you.)
---
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: And the real work begins... |
I think I figured it would take a 4' x 4' sheet for all of the gussets.
Last night I cut up a 1' x 4' strip of plywood to give me gussets for the
next 8 or 9 ribs.
--Ken
On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:20:31 -0400, Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
> Glad to hear someone is building.....and a new thread has started.
> Building ribs is a good test of your stamina to complete the project. I
> believe you can get all your rib gussets from a 2ft x 4ft piece of
> aircraft plywood, that can be shipped cheaply from Aircraft Spruce.
> That is what I did. Just be sure to sand the plywood before you cut it
> up so the T-88 will adhere well. I used the little 3/8 inch aircraft
> nails to hold the gussets in place.
>
> On another note, just finished up my paperwork package for my
> Airworthiness Certificate. Hang in there, it only took me 5 years
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Group, I believe this thread has provided me with all the useful intelligen
ce it is going to. Thank you to those who genuinely tried to help in some w
ay.
-
Before this thread degrades further into a name calling tiff, I would like
to stop it here and move on to better things.--
-
Looks to me like a full tube control system is not in my realm of time and
effort I am willing to invest to see it through safely.
-
Until my next post...cheers.
Message 14
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Jack,
Then I consider myself lucky to have seen your plane for what appears to be
the last time in a long time. My forward baggage is now set up very similar
to yours.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(15 ribs down.)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Douwe, you are right about the fact that one of the things that has produced
fewer Pietenpol flights at Brodhead recently being fatigue. For me at
least, that fatigue has been brought on by bad weather.
Last year (2008) I had planned to fly my Pietenpol there on Thursday, so I
would have Friday to rest and be fresh for flying on Saturday. For me the
trip is 650 nautical miles, with the first third of that flying over the
Appalachian Mountains. Thursday's weather was bad, and I couldn't fly, so
Friday I made the entire trip in one day - 12 hours of flying (averaging 27
knots groundspeed crossing the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia), taking off
from Raleigh at dawn and landing at Brodhead just before sunset. I did hop
a few rides on Saturday last year, in spite of my butt protesting at sitting
in that cockpit again.
This year I planned to leave on Tuesday and take my time getting there, to
arrive by Wednesday evening. It took me 3 days to get there, spending all
day Wednesday trying to cross the West Virginia / Virginia border (a 4,000'
ridge). I finally arrived at noon on Friday. But the primary reason I only
hopped 2 rides on Saturday was the crosswinds that lashed the field most of
Saturday. Flying a Pietenpol in crosswinds like that is just work, and not
much fun, particularly when you are tired.
It will be a while before I fly mine to Brodhead again. My wife is not very
happy when I fly it over the mountains. I was able to use the excuse of
wanting to be there for the 80th anniversary, but it will be a while before
I make the trip again with the Pietenpol. I'll still go to Brodhead, but
I'll probably use the RV-4. Much cheaper on gas and able to outrun weather.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 10:19 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
It's funny how the last mile of the marathon seems longer than the rest.
I'm in the final mile with the piet, and my list of "little tidbits" seems
miles long, and the little jobs that appear simple often end up being
surprisingly hard.
I just finished the cockpit coamings. Two weeks ago I went out to the
workshop one morning thinking "I"ll do the coamings today, that'll be a fun
and rewarding afternoon job". Two weeks later I'm finishing up. Not all
that time was working on it, but what I thought was an afternoon job, ended
up taking me probably three days.
I also have to be really disciplined with myself not to rush through these
things, as so many are cosmetic, and though not structurally important, are
the items that I will see everytime I look at my Piet. But let me also say
for those who are in earlier in their projects, IT'S ALL WORTH IT!!!!KEEP
GOING!!! TRY TO TOUCH IT EVERY DAY, EVEN IF IT'S FOR TEN MINUTES!!!
I also want to write about something I've been thinking about for the last
couple of years.
Let me encourage all of you who can, to fly your Piet to Brodhead each year,
and once there, to fly it often. Dreamy-eyed enthusiasts come from all over
this country and the world to see Piets flying. There are many builders, or
wanna be builders who have never even seen a real Piet, let alone seen one
fly. As I"m sure most of you know, the sight of the Pietenpols flying at
Brodhead is a powerful shot in the arm of encouragement to dozens to keep
building for another year. I seriously doubt that I would be finishing my
plane if it weren't for my annual pilgrimage to Brodhead.
I have been struck at the last two Brodheads, that while there ended up
being a good turnout, there was noticably less flying than in years past. I
attributed it to the lack of fuel these last two yeras, and some very
worn-out pilots this year. However, please remember what it was like when
you were building and dreaming of the day when your project would take wing.
Don't forget how hard you ran after each taxing plane just to watch it lift
off, or how you shot dozen of photographs of it landing, and how much that
first ride meant. If every pilot did two or three short flights each day,
this would add up to a LOT of flying and encouragement.
I pray that when mine is done, it is reliable enough for me to get up there
and serve my brother and sister builders as others have served me through
the years by treating them to the unforgettable sights and sounds of this
magnificent flying machine from a bygone era patrolling the beautiful skies
of Brodhead.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Yes Gary, I have seen your setup.=C2- Any issues with the pivit behgind t
he pilot seat twisting or pushing off to one side?
--- On Mon, 10/26/09, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
=9CI see I am not alone in changing the Pietenpol to suit my
own personal need/wants=9D
=C2-
Those are words I can live with. Change =93 Yes, Improve =93 NO
. Have you checked out www.cpc-world.com? You will see an excellent job of
incorporating push rods.
=C2-
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,=C2-Fuselage=C2-on gear
(15 ribs down)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
=C2-
Thank you Ivan. I see I am not alone in changing the Pietenpol to suit my o
wn personal need/wants.
=C2-
I do not mind people who disagree with me...discussion is the best way to c
ome up with new ideas and solutions. (if there is a problem to begin with.)
=C2- I don't like the ones who nothing intelligent to say, or have no fac
ts to share to back up their claims.=C2- Other then that, I welcome all r
eplies.
--- On Sun, 10/25/09, ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs> wrote:
From: ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
I see it exactly the opposite of you. The main reason to consider (I'm not
saying build) deviating from the plans is to honor the B. Pietenpol spirit
of always build safer and better flying aircraft. There is no need to cure
the deficiency in the design, reason enough is to make B.P. happy in heaven
s, as he is known not to build two exactly the same aircraft and to be as f
ar from "purist" as he can be. After all he abandoned one of the most signi
ficant marks of his design (Ford engine) as soon as he got a chance to do i
t. I deeply beleive if he can see someone building Piet with Ford enigne in
2009 he would think for him self "Oh, no, another ..... building by the pl
ans".
The amount of hate in the form "Oh, I just flew my Piet, and you morons tal
k about something better instead to build by the plans like me" is getting
quite disturbing. There is no wonder people got annoyed. There is no single
thread in which some deviation from the plans is mentioned that is not rap
idly shut with flood of "Why, why, why, when this design confirmed it self
for 80 years?" messegaes. To honor B.P, is there any other reason needed?
Regards,
and please don't mind the rough tone, I got excited how this thread is cut
of, and I am very interested in building with pushrods for several reasons,
Ivan Todorovic
=C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forum
s.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2-
Message 16
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Well, I'll get it up there again. "A long time" for me is 3 years. I first
flew it there in 2005, then skipped '06 and '07, before flying it there in
'08 and '09. I'll probably have it there in 2012 or 2013.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
Jack,
Then I consider myself lucky to have seen your plane for what appears to be
the last time in a long time. My forward baggage is now set up very similar
to yours.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(15 ribs down.)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Douwe, you are right about the fact that one of the things that has produced
fewer Pietenpol flights at Brodhead recently being fatigue. For me at
least, that fatigue has been brought on by bad weather.
Last year (2008) I had planned to fly my Pietenpol there on Thursday, so I
would have Friday to rest and be fresh for flying on Saturday. For me the
trip is 650 nautical miles, with the first third of that flying over the
Appalachian Mountains. Thursday's weather was bad, and I couldn't fly, so
Friday I made the entire trip in one day - 12 hours of flying (averaging 27
knots groundspeed crossing the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia), taking off
from Raleigh at dawn and landing at Brodhead just before sunset. I did hop
a few rides on Saturday last year, in spite of my butt protesting at sitting
in that cockpit again.
This year I planned to leave on Tuesday and take my time getting there, to
arrive by Wednesday evening. It took me 3 days to get there, spending all
day Wednesday trying to cross the West Virginia / Virginia border (a 4,000'
ridge). I finally arrived at noon on Friday. But the primary reason I only
hopped 2 rides on Saturday was the crosswinds that lashed the field most of
Saturday. Flying a Pietenpol in crosswinds like that is just work, and not
much fun, particularly when you are tired.
It will be a while before I fly mine to Brodhead again. My wife is not very
happy when I fly it over the mountains. I was able to use the excuse of
wanting to be there for the 80th anniversary, but it will be a while before
I make the trip again with the Pietenpol. I'll still go to Brodhead, but
I'll probably use the RV-4. Much cheaper on gas and able to outrun weather.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 10:19 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: some thoughts
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
It's funny how the last mile of the marathon seems longer than the rest.
I'm in the final mile with the piet, and my list of "little tidbits" seems
miles long, and the little jobs that appear simple often end up being
surprisingly hard.
I just finished the cockpit coamings. Two weeks ago I went out to the
workshop one morning thinking "I"ll do the coamings today, that'll be a fun
and rewarding afternoon job". Two weeks later I'm finishing up. Not all
that time was working on it, but what I thought was an afternoon job, ended
up taking me probably three days.
I also have to be really disciplined with myself not to rush through these
things, as so many are cosmetic, and though not structurally important, are
the items that I will see everytime I look at my Piet. But let me also say
for those who are in earlier in their projects, IT'S ALL WORTH IT!!!!KEEP
GOING!!! TRY TO TOUCH IT EVERY DAY, EVEN IF IT'S FOR TEN MINUTES!!!
I also want to write about something I've been thinking about for the last
couple of years.
Let me encourage all of you who can, to fly your Piet to Brodhead each year,
and once there, to fly it often. Dreamy-eyed enthusiasts come from all over
this country and the world to see Piets flying. There are many builders, or
wanna be builders who have never even seen a real Piet, let alone seen one
fly. As I"m sure most of you know, the sight of the Pietenpols flying at
Brodhead is a powerful shot in the arm of encouragement to dozens to keep
building for another year. I seriously doubt that I would be finishing my
plane if it weren't for my annual pilgrimage to Brodhead.
I have been struck at the last two Brodheads, that while there ended up
being a good turnout, there was noticably less flying than in years past. I
attributed it to the lack of fuel these last two yeras, and some very
worn-out pilots this year. However, please remember what it was like when
you were building and dreaming of the day when your project would take wing.
Don't forget how hard you ran after each taxing plane just to watch it lift
off, or how you shot dozen of photographs of it landing, and how much that
first ride meant. If every pilot did two or three short flights each day,
this would add up to a LOT of flying and encouragement.
I pray that when mine is done, it is reliable enough for me to get up there
and serve my brother and sister builders as others have served me through
the years by treating them to the unforgettable sights and sounds of this
magnificent flying machine from a bygone era patrolling the beautiful skies
of Brodhead.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
I've been watching this thread and being somewhat new to the list I didn't
have any experience to comment. except that I thought everyone was much mor
e civil when I enquired about floats and the Riblett airfoil. I decided to
just build it per plans and if I want to put the 612 or 613.5 later it wou
ldn't involve any rebuilding of anything but wings and struts. The biggest
reason for me doing this was knowing the vast majority of experimentals do
not get finnished. I takes a long time and a lot of work to build any air
plane from plans. We all are enthusiastic when we start. But how enthusia
stic are we when we realize after 100hrs of reengineering we have little to
show for our efforts. The only engineering I will do is for the aft float
fittings so I don't have to recover the fuse. down the road if I decide to
take that fork. I'm looking for ways to cut costs and speed and simplify
the building process as much as possible. My rib jig is not pretty. It do
esn't have to be. It just needs to be accurate. Would a push pull control
system be simpler? Yes=2C the next time it gets done! Would putting float
s on a Piet be an improvement? Only if you're a seaplane junkie and want s
omething unique. But it cannot be done with the std. Piet wing. I've had
my addrenalin turned brown enough by marginal seaplanes. That's why I aband
oned the idea...for now.
I was just slightly suprised by the sarcasm in most peoples response to mic
hael's question. Some us posed just as crazy ideas and were met with much
more civil respones.
OK I'm done.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
From: speedbrake@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
David=2C you make a good point. I know next to nothing on making this chang
e. I am gathering information to do so=2C as I have stated many=2C many tim
es. If it proves to be too involved=2C too heavy=2C too expensive=2C too ma
th intensive=2C etc. then I will not bother. Originally=2C again=2C as I ha
ve said before=2C I had hopped someone that had "been there=2C done that" w
ould post a real world "for" or "against" response.
As you all have seen=2C some good info has been posted and the usual worthl
ess posts. I try to weed out the facts from the knee jerk reactions and ex
tract useful=2C intelligent information. As I sit here typing this=2C I am
leaning towards just having a push/pull tube from the stick to the elevator
bell crank=2C cables everywhere else.
Still=2C I am yet to have my original question answered. (well=2C those who
have posted the calculations/formulas have really helped a lot...thank you
.)
---
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID
24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: some thoughts |
Jack,
You know, the easiest solution is just to buy a house/build a B&B closer
to Brodhead. I reckon I can make the flight in 5 or 6 tens of minutes
from my place and there aren't any mountains in the way...
/me ducks!
;-)
Cheers,
Dan
Jack Phillips wrote:
>
> Douwe, you are right about the fact that one of the things that has produced
> fewer Pietenpol flights at Brodhead recently being fatigue. For me at
> least, that fatigue has been brought on by bad weather.
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight |
Me too!- Jim Lagowski
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:00 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight
Thanks, Dan. Keep posting these diary entries. I'm really enjoying
them.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:03 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 106 years ago today-Prelude to flight
From the diary of Orville Wright:
Monday, October 26, 1903
Kitty Hawk, N.C.
A breeze of 6 to 8 meters blowing from west at 9 o'clock. Dan did not
turn up all today. We worked on truss wires big machine this morning,
but afternoon the wind veered to north and we spent about two hours on
Big Hill attempting to soar. We succeeded in breaking our former record
six times out of about 20 attempts. These records were as follows:
OW 1 min. 5 1/2 sec.
WW 1 " 4 1/5 "
WW 1 " 7 3/5 "
WW 1 " 7 2/5 "
OW 1 " 11 4/5 "
WW 1 " 9 1/2 "
Wind speed during last two glides was probably about 13 meters per
second at point of starting and about 8 or 9 meters near point of
landing. These glides covered a distance of from 450 to 500 feet (not
measured). Wind record taken just after last glide was:
Top (of) hill 244 meters
in 20 sec.
260 "
" 20 "
256 "
" 20 sec.
Near bottom 174 meters in
20 "
In one of my glides when up at a considerable distance the wind
suddenly struck the top of the surface, jerking the machine clear away
from under me excepting my hold on the front rudder bar. Winds
frequently shifted 45 or more degrees in a second or two, sometimes two
or three times in a glide. Most of the glides were not so high as those
of last Wednesday. In Will's last glide he says he met with very little
wind up 25 or 30 feet towards bottom of hill but on dropping to about 10
ft. from ground met with a strong wind with, apparently, a slightly
downward trend. In running along under him I encountered a strong wind
the entire time. Will proposed today the idea of working front instead
of rear edge of surfaces in end control, thus overcoming, probably, the
difficulties we have had, when quartering, in lifting the forward wing.
Wind at seven o'clock is blowing 13 meters at camp, but air is not so
cold as last night.
do not archive
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: some thoughts |
Well, I feel real lucky to have had the opportunity to look at your airplane on
my first trip to Brodhead. What a beauty.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269508#269508
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: some thoughts |
Thanks, Mark. I wish I had met you while we were there. Sometimes I think
Brodhead should last a week and Oshkosh shouldn't be more than two days.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: some thoughts
Well, I feel real lucky to have had the opportunity to look at your airplane
on my first trip to Brodhead. What a beauty.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269508#269508
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: some thoughts |
Actually, we did meet just briefly. You were getting ready for a Saturday flight...
I asked a couple of questions about you fuselage and got out of the way.
Hopefully I won't feel too intimidated by you veterans next year, and I'll make
it a point to seek some of you guys out. I really didn't have any reason
to feel intimidated... everyone was super nice (except for that bum John Racine),
but I didn't really figure that out until late in the event.
Just kidding John... I'll see you tomorrow night. Markle said he'll be providing
some pizza and I've got the beer.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269530#269530
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: some thoughts |
I am in route and will catch up with you guys tomorrow night after work.
See ya then
John
------Original Message------
From: Mark Chunard
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: some thoughts
Sent: Oct 26, 2009 2:54 PM
Actually, we did meet just briefly. You were getting ready for a Saturday flight...
I asked a couple of questions about you fuselage and got out of the way.
Hopefully I won't feel too intimidated by you veterans next year, and I'll make
it a point to seek some of you guys out. I really didn't have any reason
to feel intimidated... everyone was super nice (except for that bum John Racine),
but I didn't really figure that out until late in the event.
Just kidding John... I'll see you tomorrow night. Markle said he'll be providing
some pizza and I've got the beer.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269530#269530
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Just a thought. I'm not so sure about cutting threads inside the pushrod.
My experience is limited but all the pushrods I've seen have inserts on the
ends of the pushrod - the rod-end bearing screws into the insert.
Like this: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pushrodthdfit.php
Or this:
http://rv9a.pacificrimsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dsc06230.jpg
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>wrote:
> I've been watching this thread and being somewhat new to the list I didn't
> have any experience to comment. except that I thought everyone was much more
> civil when I enquired about floats and the Riblett airfoil. I decided to
> just build it per plans and if I want to put the 612 or 613.5 later it
> wouldn't involve any rebuilding of anything but wings and struts. The
> biggest reason for me doing this was knowing the vast majority of
> experimentals do not get finnished. I takes a long time and a lot of work
> to build any airplane from plans. We all are enthusiastic when we start.
> But how enthusiastic are we when we realize after 100hrs of reengineering we
> have little to show for our efforts. The only engineering I will do is for
> the aft float fittings so I don't have to recover the fuse. down the road if
> I decide to take that fork. I'm looking for ways to cut costs and speed and
> simplify the building process as much as possible. My rib jig is not
> pretty. It doesn't have to be. It just needs to be accurate. Would a push
> pull control system be simpler? Yes, the next time it gets done! Would
> putting floats on a Piet be an improvement? Only if you're a seaplane
> junkie and want something unique. But it cannot be done with the std. Piet
> wing. I've had my addrenalin turned brown enough by marginal seaplanes.
> That's why I abandoned the idea...for now.
>
> I was just slightly suprised by the sarcasm in most peoples response to
> michael's question. Some us posed just as crazy ideas and were met with
> much more civil respones.
>
> OK I'm done.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:03:04 -0700
> From: speedbrake@sbcglobal.net
>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
> David, you make a good point. I know next to nothing on making this
> change. I am gathering information to do so, as I have stated many, many
> times. If it proves to be too involved, too heavy, too expensive, too math
> intensive, etc. then I will not bother. Originally, again, as I have said
> before, I had hopped someone that had "been there, done that" would post a
> real world "for" or "against" response.
>
> As you all have seen, some good info has been posted and the usual
> worthless posts. I try to weed out the facts from the knee jerk reactions
> and extract useful, intelligent information. As I sit here typing this, I
> am leaning towards just having a push/pull tube from the stick to the
> elevator bell crank, cables everywhere else.
>
> Still, I am yet to have my original question answered. (well, those who
> have posted the calculations/formulas have really helped a lot...thank you.)
>
> ---
>
> *
>
> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
The advantage of the threaded inserts are that the proper materials can
be chosen, stress concentrations avoided and rolled threads used. They
ought to have excellent fatigue life. On the other hand they are usually
either riveted, bolted or welded to the tube, so they do need that joint
taken into consideration.
However, if the tube is otherwise a suitable size and material, there's
no reason why properly-made internal threads can't work nicely. As
Michael Perez pointed out correctly they can potentially have enough
strength. The tube also will need enough net section to carry the load,
and sufficient moment of inertia to avoid Euler buckling, and sufficient
wall thickness to avoid local crippling. The threaded hole will need
appropriate alignment, of course, and it would be good to have a tapered
run-out to the threads.
Usually when such elements are designed, there's a threaded insert such
as a Helicoil for the actual threads. That's a refinement that is
probably unlikely for a homebuilder to install, so it would be desirable
to assess why that's such a common design detail, and what the issues
are.
I think it's unlikely that such a pushrod would be anything like
weight-efficient for any serious element of the control system. But it's
worth the try, if anyone is interested enough to spend the time to do
it. It's not something to be ruled out arbitrarily. It's also not
something to be adopted without completely understanding and accounting
for all the aspects involved.
David Paule
From: Matt Redmond
Just a thought. I'm not so sure about cutting threads inside the
pushrod.
My experience is limited but all the pushrods I've seen have inserts
on the ends of the pushrod - the rod-end bearing screws into the insert.
Like this:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pushrodthdfit.php
Or this:
http://rv9a.pacificrimsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dsc06230.jpg
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Did you used to be an engineer for Bell Ivan?=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.
rs>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, October 25, 2009 8:19:2
5 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends=0A=0A--> P
ietenpol-List message posted by: "ivan.todorovic" <tosha@sezampro.rs>=0A=0A
[quote="dpaule(at)frii.com"]Take it from me.... starting with the governm
ent's forces at the control- stick and working out from there is the easy
way to do the job.=0A- =0AMake it easy on yourself and install the contr
ols exactly as the- plans describe them.=0A- =0ADavid Paule=0A[quote]
- - =0A=0AOK, why would I (for instance, and anyone else) take it from
you, when the authority like Pieti Lowell says on this very thread says the
opposite: his personal plane had the push/pull tube AND flew perfectly AND
safe for many years? Have you got any better argument?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead
this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=
==
Message 27
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| Subject: | Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
I had a Robertson B1-RD and the elevator pushrod was done that way. It onl
y had on guide but I'm sure the forces were much less as the cruise speed w
as only 33mph. In anything but a very light breeze the bicycles passed me
=3B-)
BTW - these last comments are more like the ones I'm used to on this list
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio-working on ribs.
From: dpaule@frii.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
The advantage of the threaded inserts are that the proper materials can be
chosen=2C stress concentrations avoided and rolled threads used. They ought
to have excellent fatigue life. On the other hand they are usually either
riveted=2C bolted or welded to the tube=2C so they do need that joint taken
into consideration.
However=2C if the tube is otherwise a suitable size and material=2C there's
no reason why properly-made internal threads can't work nicely. As Michael
Perez pointed out correctly they can potentially have enough strength. The
tube also will need enough net section to carry the load=2C and sufficient
moment of inertia to avoid Euler buckling=2C and sufficient wall thickness
to avoid local crippling. The threaded hole will need appropriate alignmen
t=2C of course=2C and it would be good to have a tapered run-out to the thr
eads.
Usually when such elements are designed=2C there's a threaded insert such a
s a Helicoil for the actual threads. That's a refinement that is probably u
nlikely for a homebuilder to install=2C so it would be desirable to assess
why that's such a common design detail=2C and what the issues are.
I think it's unlikely that such a pushrod would be anything like weight-eff
icient for any serious element of the control system. But it's worth the tr
y=2C if anyone is interested enough to spend the time to do it. It's not so
mething to be ruled out arbitrarily. It's also not something to be adopted
without completely understanding and accounting for all the aspects involve
d.
David Paule
From: Matt Redmond
Just a thought. I'm not so sure about cutting threads inside the pushrod.
My experience is limited but all the pushrods I've seen have inserts on the
ends of the pushrod - the rod-end bearing screws into the insert.
Like this: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pushrodthdfit.php
Or this: http://rv9a.pacificrimsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dsc062
30.jpg
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7.
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WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: And the real work begins... |
K5YAC wrote:
> Not real sure on the 2' x 4' plywood for all the gussets. I burnt through a
4' x 4', and then some. I cut my gussets a little large, but close to what the
plans showed... plus I have a vertical in front and behind each spar, so that
consumed a little more material.
>
>
Maybe I bought 2 pieces of 2' x 4', but it was cheaper to ship than a
4X4 piece.
Ben
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Mr.Peitenpol was always making changes, just look at the Sky Scout plans.
He talks about changing the gear, the tail wheel, and a brace in the rib.
He wanted these changes to be used for the Air Camper and the Scout. People
are just always trying to make things better. I believe it's called
progress. I hear of those who would not change a thing, but when you talk to
them they really did make some small changes. I guess that doesn't count.
Some people don't trust themselves to make a change. Others have the
experience or knowledge to feel fine with their changes. We are all different,
that's what makes life worth living.
I had trouble with my cables between the stick and the bellcrank. The
cables were tight when the stick was centered, but loose when I had full
stick forward or full stick back. I came close to using a push/pull tube
there. My glider has push/pull tubes and they work great.
I can't see it adding more then 2 or 3 pounds at tops. Not near as
much as a cubby hole with a tie down kit.
Howdy
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: And the real work begins... |
Check with Boulter Plywood in greater Boston-- google them, and see what they have.
You can shop online and then call to discuss shipping and place your order,
including cutting instructions-- perhaps with Chris Boulter, a principal there.
Two 2 X 4 sheets ship a lot cheaper than one 2 X 8.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Oct 26, 2009 3:23 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: And the real work begins...
>
>
>K5YAC wrote:
>> Not real sure on the 2' x 4' plywood for all the gussets. I burnt through a
4' x 4', and then some. I cut my gussets a little large, but close to what the
plans showed... plus I have a vertical in front and behind each spar, so that
consumed a little more material.
>>
>>
>Maybe I bought 2 pieces of 2' x 4', but it was cheaper to ship than a
>4X4 piece.
>
>Ben
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
This is only my opinion, and we all know what opinions are like...
Michael, change your plane to suit your needs and desires. It's YOUR airplane.
You will be the one who must trust his life to the design changes, and none
of us are obligated to fly in your plane.
I will be building mine as close to the prints as possible, as I don't care to
change things just for the sake of change. However, IF there was a change that
I wanted to make (and there are a few) that I could justify the time/effort/expense,
then I would do it. But if there was no logical justification for changing
any aspect of MY plane, then that aspect will be built according to the
plans.
I personally don't see what there is to be gained by going to the push/pull instead
of the pull/pull cables. To me, the external control cables and control
horns add just as much to the nostalgic air of this timeless airplane as the Jenny
style gear and wire wheels do.
If indeed you posed the question of push/pull just from the interest of learning
about the engineering involved, I support your decision to do this.
As for the forces in the control system, look for the weakest link in the cable
system. What it is the breaking strength in tension of a typical turnbuckle
in the elevator cable system? The threaded portions of the eye or fork ends don't
have a very large cross section... What is the shear strength of the clevis
pin that hooks the eye of the turnbuckle to the bellcrank/control horn? How
much force is required to tear the clevis pin out of the the thin sheet metal
bellcrank/control horn?
I would think that the pulling force exerted by the elevator on the cables would
be the same as the pushing force applied to a pushrod tube, and you could use
that loading to calculate the diameter and wall thickness of the pushrod tube
you would need to use to prevent buckling in compression loading. You could
build a mock-up and test it with weights or scales to simulate the flight loads
encountered, provided you had an accurate way to calculate or measure those
flight loads. Or you could copy the design of another existing plane that uses
push/pull elevator controls. What do the RV's use? I think those are push/pull,
and that plane imparts much larger flight loads than a Piet could impose
on the system.
Again, just my $.02 on this topic. Returning to lurk mode now...
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL/Baker, LA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269561#269561
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
Seems to me the "E" in EAA is there for a reason.
Half the fun of this stuff is dicking around that might or might not ever
lead to an improvement. I know a guy that spent at least 20 years building
his sort-of KR2 (with wider fuselage, longer wings, VW conversion, etc..).
That guy wasn't serious about flying - he was serious about experimenting.
It kept him away from women and bars and he had a damn good time doing it.
Do not archive.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 2:24 PM, H RULE <harvey.rule@rogers.com> wrote:
> Did you used to be an engineer for Bell Ivan?
> do not archive
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ivan.todorovic <tosha@sezampro.rs>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sun, October 25, 2009 8:19:25 PM
>
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
>
>
> [quote="dpaule(at)frii.com"]Take it from me.... starting with the
> government's forces at the control stick and working out from there is the
> easy way to do the job.
>
> Make it easy on yourself and install the controls exactly as the plans
> describe them.
>
> David Paule
> [quote]
>
> OK, why would I (for instance, and anyone else) take it from you, when the
> authority like Pieti Lowell says on this very thread says the opposite: his
> personal plane had the push/pull tube AND flew perfectly AND safe for many
> years? Have you got any better argument?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269402#269402>
> _f="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>
> http://forums.matronics.nbsp; onics.com/contribution"
> ======
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: some thoughts |
The knowledge of the elders can be found on the west side of the
airport. Just follow the blue cloud.
do not archive
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
Madison, WI 53718
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com
On Oct 26, 2009, at 2:54 PM, K5YAC wrote:
>
> Actually, we did meet just briefly. You were getting ready for a
> Saturday flight... I asked a couple of questions about you fuselage
> and got out of the way. Hopefully I won't feel too intimidated by
> you veterans next year, and I'll make it a point to seek some of you
> guys out. I really didn't have any reason to feel intimidated...
> everyone was super nice (except for that bum John Racine), but I
> didn't really figure that out until late in the event.
>
> Just kidding John... I'll see you tomorrow night. Markle said he'll
> be providing some pizza and I've got the beer.
>
> --------
> Mark - working on wings
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269530#269530
>
>
Message 34
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|
To any of you "REAL" Pietenpolers who have a model "A" engine and are a bit
tail-heavy (ie. push-pull tubes rather than cables??) I might have just so
lved your problem!
-
I bought a Lion Speed Head from Charlie Yapp and it felt a bit heavier than
the "C" head that I have been running so I did a weight comparison. The "C
" head weighed 27 lbs and the new head is 46.5 lbs. That's dang near 10 lbs
more in the nose!!!
-
I was at the aft 1/2" or so of the CG range originally but this should put
me solidly in the mid-range...or at least a little closer to the middle. Ca
n't wait to see where the CG comes out now and what the difference is in ha
ndling. Should be a little harder to snaproll and my down elevator might ru
n out of travel while inverted. I'll let you know. WHEEEE!
-
The head claims more speed, better mileage, smoother operation, etc, etc. O
nce again, I'll let you know. Oh yeah, it looks cool, too!
-
Larry
-
ps. I am thinking of putting a nose wheel on my Piet. Does anyone have actu
al experience with doing this? Your opinion won't count either way but I'd
just like to-hear what you think.
-
-I'm going to Belize next week to talk to the Fisherman about this and ge
t an original thinker's opinion rather than be bogged down by all you robot
ic clone-builders.
-
pps. Harrumph!
-
do not archive=0A=0A=0A
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Model A head |
It IS a cool head! I seen it!
>
>I bought a Lion Speed Head from Charlie Yapp and it felt a bit
>heavier than the "C" head that I have been running so I did a weight
>comparison. The "C" head weighed 27 lbs and the new head is 46.5
>lbs. That's dang near 10 lbs more in the nose!!!
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Model A head |
Gotta be careful round these parts Larry, there's some of us that 'druther
suck the life out of you and the ingenuity out of your airplane!
Wowzers, that's one sharp looking head:
http://www.secretsofspeed.com/LION.htm. A real performer, to boot. You best
proceed with caution, as the formerly timid old Ford may want to pull so
hard as to risk ripping the wings off your ship!
Good luck!
Ryan
do not archive
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Lawrence Williams <lnawms@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To any of you "REAL" Pietenpolers who have a model "A" engine and are a bit
> tail-heavy (ie. push-pull tubes rather than cables??) I might have just
> solved your problem!
>
> I bought a Lion Speed Head from Charlie Yapp and it felt a bit heavier than
> the "C" head that I have been running so I did a weight comparison. The "C"
> head weighed 27 lbs and the new head is 46.5 lbs. That's dang near 10 lbs
> more in the nose!!!
>
> I was at the aft 1/2" or so of the CG range originally but this should put
> me solidly in the mid-range...or at least a little closer to the middle.
> Can't wait to see where the CG comes out now and what the difference is in
> handling. Should be a little harder to snaproll and my down elevator might
> run out of travel while inverted. I'll let you know. WHEEEE!
>
> The head claims more speed, better mileage, smoother operation, etc, etc.
> Once again, I'll let you know. Oh yeah, it looks cool, too!
>
> Larry
>
> ps. I am thinking of putting a nose wheel on my Piet. Does anyone have
> actual experience with doing this? Your opinion won't count either way but
> I'd just like to hear what you think.
>
> I'm going to Belize next week to talk to the Fisherman about this and get
> an original thinker's opinion rather than be bogged down by all you robotic
> clone-builders.
>
> pps. Harrumph!
>
> do not archive
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Model A head |
Hope your engineering is better than your math 46.5 - 27 = 19.5 almost 20 lbs.
:-)
Personnally I would not like to see a Piet with a nosewheel. Might be interesting
but asthetically I don't think it would look too good.
Rodney
do not archive
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Model A head |
"Hope your engineering is better than your math 46.5 - 27 = 19.5 almost 20 lbs.
"
Come on now, don't bash his engineering... he did say 'dang near'. That ought
to qualify as engineering speak. :)
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL/Baker, LA[/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269611#269611
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