Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:44 AM - 106 years ago today- prelude to flight (helspersew@aol.com)
2. 05:23 AM - Re: Re: Model A head (Dan Yocum)
3. 06:04 AM - Re: Model A head (TOM STINEMETZE)
4. 01:12 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Dan Yocum)
5. 01:33 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Jeff Boatright)
6. 02:05 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Jack Phillips)
7. 02:42 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Michael Perez)
8. 03:11 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Ryan Mueller)
9. 03:20 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Jack Phillips)
10. 03:27 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Doug Dever)
11. 03:41 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Jack Phillips)
12. 04:04 PM - exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Bill Church)
13. 04:30 PM - Re: exhaust manifold (David Paule)
14. 04:51 PM - Re: Re: exhaust manifold (Wayne Bressler)
15. 05:09 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Jack)
16. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: exhaust manifold (helspersew@aol.com)
17. 05:57 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Doug Dever)
18. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: exhaust manifold (Doug Dever)
19. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: exhaust manifold (David Paule)
20. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: exhaust manifold (Lloyd Smith)
21. 08:44 PM - Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] (Ryan Mueller)
22. 11:15 PM - Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Bill Church)
23. 11:16 PM - Aircraft built by BHP (was) Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Bill Church)
24. 11:24 PM - Re: Aircraft built by BHP (was) Push/pull tubes and rod ends (Robert Ray)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 106 years ago today- prelude to flight |
>From the diary of Orville Wright:
Tuesday, October 27, 1903
Kitty Hawk, N.C.
A wind of 8 to 10 meters blew all morning from the northwest. We worked du
ring morning on new machine but just before dinner took machine to northwe
st slope of Big Hill for pictures. The wind was very irregular.Spratt and
Dan started machine. Two pictures taken of Will and two of myself gliding
. Height of glides not over 20 to 25 feet. Wind soon died out and we retur
ned to camp. We made cradle for end control and completed attachment of wi
res and pulleys. Very cold in evening. After trying a small fire in carbid
e can which nearly smoked us out we went to bed.
Footnote: "Everything about the building was sooted up so thoroughly that
for several days we couldn't sit down to eat without a whole lot of black
soot dropping down on our plates. We decided a change was necessary so we
got a little stovepipe and built a stove out of the can, adding strap iro
n legs to fit and a number of patent dampers, so that now we have about as
good control in our stove as we have in our machine. We are now living in
luxurious ease." (Orville Wright to Katherine Wright, Nov. 1, 1903)
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Model A head |
Billy McCaskill wrote:
>
> "Hope your engineering is better than your math 46.5 - 27 = 19.5 almost 20 lbs.
"
>
> Come on now, don't bash his engineering... he did say 'dang near'. That ought
to qualify as engineering speak. :)
"First we assume that a horse is a sphere..."
do not archive
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Model A head |
Any pilot who has a wheel hangin' out his nose has a lot more to worry
about than whether it's operated by cables or rods.
Macidiot
do not archive this either
>>> <r.r.hall@cox.net> 10/26/2009 9:48 PM >>>
Hope your engineering is better than your math 46.5 - 27 = 19.5 almost
20 lbs. :-)
Personnally I would not like to see a Piet with a nosewheel. Might be
interesting but asthetically I don't think it would look too good.
Rodney
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Clif, Gary, Rick,
Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route and
sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the Twin
Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email - how
long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even want to
venture guess...
Thanks again,
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>Clif, Gary, Rick,
>
>Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
>and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
>Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
>- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
>want to venture guess...
>
>Thanks again,
>Dan
>
>--
>Dan Yocum
>Fermilab 630.840.6509
>yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
>Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems, let me share a
little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel,
welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The welds
looked good, but after about 30 hours of operation, the left stack broke off
and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the heat
muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it, with an additional strut to help
distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this was
in 2005). On the way home, the right side stack broke off and was again
held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make emergency
repairs so I could make it home.
I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole new
set from plain carbon steel, which I could weld myself. No problem with it,
except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have to
replace it.
Meanwhile, I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race cars
(TIG welded stainless), telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did you
do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
do), and said "Huh?"
He said, "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to prevent the
weld from burning, but with such thin walled material, the metal on the
inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield it
as well."
He said that when he does a job like this, he plugs one end of the tube,
then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match and
inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately, he knows he
doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again, I may give
stainless another try, using this technique.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>Clif, Gary, Rick,
>
>Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
>and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
>Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
>- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
>want to venture guess...
>
>Thanks again,
>Dan
>
>--
>Dan Yocum
>Fermilab 630.840.6509
>yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
>Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Is that an actual argon purge, (flowing of gas, such that comes from the TI
G head when welding) or did he just "cork" the tube closed while filled wit
h gas?
-
I am also curious if the same failure would result on the exact same tube/m
aterial/weld had it not been subjected to the heating/cool the exhaust sees
.
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center sectio
n]
et>
For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems, let me share a
little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel,
welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank).- The welds
looked good, but after about 30 hours of operation, the left stack broke of
f
and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the heat
muff.- I had my neighbor re-weld it, with an additional strut to help
distribute the load.- Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this
was
in 2005).- On the way home, the right side stack broke off and was again
held in place by the SCAT hose.- I had to find a local welder make emerge
ncy
repairs so I could make it home.
I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole new
set from plain carbon steel, which I could weld myself.- No problem with
it,
except that it has begun to rust.- In another 10 years or so I'll have to
replace it.
Meanwhile, I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race car
s
(TIG welded stainless), telling him of my troubles.- He asked "What did y
ou
do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
do), and said "Huh?"
He said, "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to prevent th
e
weld from burning, but with such thin walled material, the metal on the
inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside.- You've got to shield i
t
as well."
He said that when he does a job like this, he plugs one end of the tube,
then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
tube with Argon.- He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match an
d
inserting it into the tube.- If it doesn't go out immediately, he knows h
e
doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again, I may give
stainless another try, using this technique.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>Clif, Gary, Rick,
>
>Thanks for the info guys.- I'll probably go the "commercial" route
>and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
>Twin Cities area.- If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
>- how long would it take me to get the pipes done!- I don't even
>want to venture guess...
>
>Thanks again,
>Dan
>
>--
>Dan Yocum
>Fermilab- 630.840.6509
>yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
>Fermilab.- Just zeros and ones.
le, List Admin.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Dan,
You may want to give Dawley Aviation a call: 800-338-5420, 262-763-3113,
info@dawley.net. They are located in Burlington, WI (closer to you than
MSP), and they do some pretty darned good work with exhaust systems. They
fabbed an exhaust system from scratch for a friend's R-680 on a Cessna
Bobcat, and did a very nice job. I don't know how they compare cost-wise to
the shops you are considering (for the work you are wanting done), but from
what I have seen in person and heard from others they do nice work.
Good luck!
Ryan
(We're actually going to be out to the airport this weekend!!! The heat will
be on too... :P )
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov> wrote:
>
> Clif, Gary, Rick,
>
> Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route and sub
> this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the Twin Cities
> area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email - how long would it
> take me to get the pipes done! I don't even want to venture guess...
>
> Thanks again,
> Dan
>
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Don't know - I haven't seen the procedure done, just heard his description
of it. I believe he said he plugged one end of the tube and flowed argon
into the other end for several seconds until it had displaced the air in the
tube. He then checked the oxygen level by inserting a burning match.
As Yogi Berra said "I've already told you more than I know".
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
Is that an actual argon purge, (flowing of gas, such that comes from the TIG
head when welding) or did he just "cork" the tube closed while filled with
gas?
I am also curious if the same failure would result on the exact same
tube/material/weld had it not been subjected to the heating/cool the exhaust
sees.
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pietflyr@bellsouth.net> >
For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems, let me share a
little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel,
welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The welds
looked good, but after about 30 hours of operation, the left stack broke off
and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the heat
muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it, with an additional strut to help
distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this was
in 2005). On the way home, the right side stack broke off and was again
held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make emergency
repairs so I could make it home.
I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole new
set from plain carbon steel, which I could weld myself. No problem with it,
except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have to
replace it.
Meanwhile, I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race cars
(TIG welded stainless), telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did you
do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
do), and said "Huh?"
He said, "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to prevent the
weld from burning, but with such thin walled material, the metal on the
inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield it
as well."
He said that when he does a job like this, he plugs one end of the tube,
then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match and
inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately, he knows he
doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again, I may give
stainless another try, using this technique.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owner-pietenpol-list-server@ma
tronics.com>
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owner-pietenpol-list-server@ma
tronics.com> ] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jboatri@emory.edu> >
I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
immediate and catastrophic failure.
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yocum@fnal.gov> >
>
>Clif, Gary, Rick,
>
>Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
>and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
>Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
>- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
>want to venture guess...
>
>Thanks again,
>Dan
>
>--
>Dan Yocum
>Fermilab 630.840.6509
>yocum@fnal.gov
<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yocum@fnal.gov> ,
http://fermigrid.fnal.gov <http://fermigrid.fnal.gov/>
>Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List< -->
http://forums.matronbsp; <http://forums.matronics.com/> - List
Contribution Web Site -http://www======================
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Something to said for gas welding. Don't have that problem. Tig and Mig i
s fast=2C but I'll take gas any day of the week. The best sheet metal men
almost always use gas. You can weld 4130 without preheating or fear of cra
cking. You can weld all weldable aluminum=2C stainless and titanium (Haven
't done that one yet.) With tig or mig even the slightest breeze will blow
the gas off the weld. With 4130 the area will need to be preheated to pre
vent cracking. Tig and mig have thier place=2C especially in a controlled
production environment. I bet if you exhaust was gas welded by a competent
welder it wouldn't have cracked. Just my .02
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center sect
ion]
> Date: Tue=2C 27 Oct 2009 17:02:44 -0400
>
.net>
>
> For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems=2C let me share a
> little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
>
> My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel
=2C
> welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The welds
> looked good=2C but after about 30 hours of operation=2C the left stack br
oke off
> and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the hea
t
> muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it=2C with an additional strut to help
> distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this w
as
> in 2005). On the way home=2C the right side stack broke off and was again
> held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make emergen
cy
> repairs so I could make it home.
>
> I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole ne
w
> set from plain carbon steel=2C which I could weld myself. No problem with
it=2C
> except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have to
> replace it.
>
> Meanwhile=2C I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race
cars
> (TIG welded stainless)=2C telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did
you
> do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
>
> I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
> do)=2C and said "Huh?"
>
> He said=2C "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to preven
t the
> weld from burning=2C but with such thin walled material=2C the metal on t
he
> inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield it
> as well."
>
> He said that when he does a job like this=2C he plugs one end of the tube
=2C
> then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
> tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match and
> inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately=2C he knows
he
> doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
>
> So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again=2C I may give
> stainless another try=2C using this technique.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh=2C NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Boatright
> Sent: Tuesday=2C October 27=2C 2009 4:27 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> section]
>
>
> I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them=2C if I were you. I paid top
> dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month=2C another
> lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
> that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
> patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
> as good=2C but they've lasted. Also=2C stick with mild steel. Stainless
> costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
> immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>
> >
> >Clif=2C Gary=2C Rick=2C
> >
> >Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
> >and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
> >Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
> >- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
> >want to venture guess...
> >
> >Thanks again=2C
> >Dan
> >
> >--
> >Dan Yocum
> >Fermilab 630.840.6509
> >yocum@fnal.gov=2C http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> >Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Actually, the repair on the way back from OSH was made by a professional
welder, TIG welded. It lasted nearly twice as long as the first one (50
hours). It cracked too. At the weld.
You've confused me a bit - in your 5th sentence you said "you can weld 4130
without preheating or fear of cracking." Then 3 sentences later you say
"With 4130 the area will need to be preheated to prevent cracking". Which
is it?
Anyway, to some extent I agree with you - I like oxyacetylene welding.
However, for some applications TIG is far better. I've tried gas welding
aluminum, I'll leave that for the pros. I also tried gas welding stainless
and burned up a lot of test material without any good welds. MIG I have no
experience with, but I know Champion Aircraft uses MIG to build Citabrias
and Decathlons (at least the Citabria I helped rebuild had a lot of little
twigs of welding rod stuck to it like MIG tends to leave behind).
This was just a tip given o me that I passed along. I have not tried it,
but it makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
Something to said for gas welding. Don't have that problem. Tig and Mig is
fast, but I'll take gas any day of the week. The best sheet metal men
almost always use gas. You can weld 4130 without preheating or fear of
cracking. You can weld all weldable aluminum, stainless and titanium
(Haven't done that one yet.) With tig or mig even the slightest breeze will
blow the gas off the weld. With 4130 the area will need to be preheated to
prevent cracking. Tig and mig have thier place, especially in a controlled
production environment. I bet if you exhaust was gas welded by a competent
welder it wouldn't have cracked. Just my .02
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:02:44 -0400
>
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>
> For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems, let me share a
> little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
>
> My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel,
> welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The welds
> looked good, but after about 30 hours of operation, the left stack broke
off
> and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the heat
> muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it, with an additional strut to help
> distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this
was
> in 2005). On the way home, the right side stack broke off and was again
> held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make
emergency
> repairs so I could make it home.
>
> I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole new
> set from plain carbon steel, which I could weld myself. No problem with
it,
> except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have to
> replace it.
>
> Meanwhile, I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race
cars
> (TIG welded stainless), telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did you
> do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
>
> I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
> do), and said "Huh?"
>
> He said, "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to prevent
the
> weld from burning, but with such thin walled material, the metal on the
> inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield it
> as well."
>
> He said that when he does a job like this, he plugs one end of the tube,
> then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
> tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match and
> inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately, he knows he
> doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
>
> So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again, I may give
> stainless another try, using this technique.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Boatright
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> section]
>
>
> I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
> dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
> lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
> that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
> patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
> as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
> costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
> immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>
> >
> >Clif, Gary, Rick,
> >
> >Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
> >and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
> >Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
> >- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
> >want to venture guess...
> >
> >Thanks again,
> >Dan
> >
> >--
> >Dan Yocum
> >Fermilab 630.840.6509
> >yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> >Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
>
>
>
>
>
&g=================
>
>
>
_____
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: humped center section] |
A few points:
Gas welding has a much steeper learning curve than TIG.
TIG equipment is much more expensive than gas.
Aluminum is FAR easier to weld with TIG than with gas.
MIG is just plain messy and difficult to control, especially with light gauge metal.
ALL welding for aircraft use (whatever method) should really be done indoors, shielded
from any air currents, since if the welds are not allowed to cool in still
air, you're asking for trouble. The resulting weld, and adjacent material
will not be Normalized if there are moving air currents while the weld is cooling,
and will likely develop cracks.
When TIG welding 4130, preheating is not necessary IF the material thickness is
1/8" or less - which in the Pietenpol, would be any of the metal parts.
(2 more cents)
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269738#269738
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold |
Many years ago on another homebuilt, I had a stainless system built. It had
slip joints and ball joints where appropriate to allow for expansion. The
various pictures I've seen of the current batch of Pietenpol exhaust systems
don't have those; maybe they should.
It lasted past when I sold it, don't know how it fared after that, and I
sold it early on.
David Paule
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold |
I was starting to wonder if any of these failures were due to poor
exhaust system design. Tony Bingelis makes it very clear that any
system, regardless of material or welding technique, will fail if it
is not allowed to flex/expand/contract relatively unimpeded.
As David said, the use of ball joints, slip joints, etc would help to
ensure a long exhaust live.
I don't know if this was the problem with anybody here's exhaust. I'm
just sharing some info from the Bingelis books.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Jack, great post, thanks! Just purchased a tig and have been reading up on
it. I thought to myself, why mess with "back filling with argon", well now
I know. Here is a fantastic site for welding tips,
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/index.html and some info on shielding
the backside (not CYA-cover your ass).
One article...
"One thing I have to mention about welding stainless steel is that the back
side of the weld needs argon shielding just as much as the front. The photo
of the aircraft engine stator being prepared for welding displays special
tooling made for the purpose of shielding the back side of the weld. If the
penetration side is not shielded with argon, it will "sugar" which is a
slang word for oxidize. Granulation is another descriptive term that
accurately describes what happens. A close-up photo of the granulated or
sugared stainless steel weld reveals why sugared welds fail in service.
There are deep pits and crevices that are bound to develop into cracks".
They also have information on "how to" construct "back shield" devices.
Thanks again!
Jack
DSM
For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems, let me share a
little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel,
welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The welds
looked good, but after about 30 hours of operation, the left stack broke off
and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the heat
muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it, with an additional strut to help
distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this was
in 2005). On the way home, the right side stack broke off and was again
held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make emergency
repairs so I could make it home.
I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole new
set from plain carbon steel, which I could weld myself. No problem with it,
except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have to
replace it.
Meanwhile, I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race cars
(TIG welded stainless), telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did you
do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
do), and said "Huh?"
He said, "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to prevent the
weld from burning, but with such thin walled material, the metal on the
inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield it
as well."
He said that when he does a job like this, he plugs one end of the tube,
then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match and
inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately, he knows he
doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again, I may give
stainless another try, using this technique.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
section]
I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>Clif, Gary, Rick,
>
>Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
>and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
>Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
>- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
>want to venture guess...
>
>Thanks again,
>Dan
>
>--
>Dan Yocum
>Fermilab 630.840.6509
>yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
>Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
15:50:00
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold |
Good people,
I TIG welded my 4130 exhaust stacks on the model A, and afterward had them
chrome-plated. I was informed that this was not a good idea, because they
would be prone to cracking for some reason I can't remember. Can anyone
knowledgeable fill me in on this? Thanks.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne@taildraggersinc.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 6:50 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: exhaust manifold
c.com>
I was starting to wonder if any of these failures were due to poor exhaust
system design. Tony Bingelis makes it very clear that any system, regardl
ess of material or welding technique, will fail if it is not allowed to fl
ex/expand/contract relatively unimpeded.
As David said, the use of ball joints, slip joints, etc would help to ensu
re a long exhaust live.
I don't know if this was the problem with anybody here's exhaust. I'm just
sharing some info from the Bingelis books.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
========================
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Jack=2C
sorry for the confusion. If you MIG or TIG weld=2C the area must be prehea
ted. If you are gas welding the preheating has already taken place before
the area is hot enough to puddle. With MIG and TIG it=2C of course=2C pudd
les immediately without the surrounding area being preheated. In a nutshel
l no prehaeating with gas. Must preheat with MIG & TIG. 4130=2C that is.
Also of importance is after welding 4130 must cool natually (slowly) to ro
om temp to prevent cracking.
What scares a lot of people away from gas welding is the perceived mystery
and "art'' involved. while there is some art to keeping a good puddle goin
g. most of it involves the science of proper flame=2C gas pressure=2C and t
ip size. Some good gas welding info can be found at www.tinmantech.com A
nother side benefit of gas welding... Good equipment is much cheaper.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center sectio
n]
Actually=2C the repair on the way back from OSH was made by a professional
welder=2C TIG welded. It lasted nearly twice as long as the first one (50
hours). It cracked too. At the weld.
You=92ve confused me a bit ' in your 5th sentence you said =93you can wel
d 4130 without preheating or fear of cracking.=94 Then 3 sentences later y
ou say =93With 4130 the area will need to be preheated to prevent cracking
=94. Which is it?
Anyway=2C to some extent I agree with you ' I like oxyacetylene welding.
However=2C for some applications TIG is far better. I=92ve tried gas weld
ing aluminum=2C I=92ll leave that for the pros. I also tried gas welding s
tainless and burned up a lot of test material without any good welds. MIG
I have no experience with=2C but I know Champion Aircraft uses MIG to build
Citabrias and Decathlons (at least the Citabria I helped rebuild had a lot
of little twigs of welding rod stuck to it like MIG tends to leave behind)
.
This was just a tip given o me that I passed along. I have not tried it=2C
but it makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh=2C NC
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever
Sent: Tuesday=2C October 27=2C 2009 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center sectio
n]
Something to said for gas welding. Don't have that problem. Tig and Mig i
s fast=2C but I'll take gas any day of the week. The best sheet metal men
almost always use gas. You can weld 4130 without preheating or fear of cra
cking. You can weld all weldable aluminum=2C stainless and titanium (Haven
't done that one yet.) With tig or mig even the slightest breeze will blow
the gas off the weld. With 4130 the area will need to be preheated to pre
vent cracking. Tig and mig have thier place=2C especially in a controlled
production environment. I bet if you exhaust was gas welded by a competent
welder it wouldn't have cracked. Just my .02
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center sect
ion]
> Date: Tue=2C 27 Oct 2009 17:02:44 -0400
>
.net>
>
> For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems=2C let me share a
> little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
>
> My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless steel
=2C
> welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The welds
> looked good=2C but after about 30 hours of operation=2C the left stack br
oke off
> and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the hea
t
> muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it=2C with an additional strut to help
> distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this w
as
> in 2005). On the way home=2C the right side stack broke off and was again
> held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make emergen
cy
> repairs so I could make it home.
>
> I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole ne
w
> set from plain carbon steel=2C which I could weld myself. No problem with
it=2C
> except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have to
> replace it.
>
> Meanwhile=2C I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race
cars
> (TIG welded stainless)=2C telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did
you
> do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
>
> I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me to
> do)=2C and said "Huh?"
>
> He said=2C "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to preven
t the
> weld from burning=2C but with such thin walled material=2C the metal on t
he
> inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield it
> as well."
>
> He said that when he does a job like this=2C he plugs one end of the tube
=2C
> then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entire
> tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match and
> inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately=2C he knows
he
> doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
>
> So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again=2C I may give
> stainless another try=2C using this technique.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh=2C NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Boatright
> Sent: Tuesday=2C October 27=2C 2009 4:27 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> section]
>
>
> I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them=2C if I were you. I paid top
> dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month=2C another
> lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
> that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
> patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
> as good=2C but they've lasted. Also=2C stick with mild steel. Stainless
> costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
> immediate and catastrophic failure.
>
>
> >
> >Clif=2C Gary=2C Rick=2C
> >
> >Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
> >and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
> >Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
> >- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
> >want to venture guess...
> >
> >Thanks again=2C
> >Dan
> >
> >--
> >Dan Yocum
> >Fermilab 630.840.6509
> >yocum@fnal.gov=2C http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> >Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
>
>
>
>
>
&g=================
>
>
>
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or?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold |
I've also heard you don't have to worry about preheating thin material=2C b
ut some of the more knowledgable people in the business say yes to preheati
ng. FAA still recommends gas welding=2C but some production aircraft are
MIG welded. Go figure.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: exhaust manifold
From: helspersew@aol.com
Good people=2C
I TIG welded my 4130 exhaust stacks on the model A=2C and afterward had the
m chrome-plated. I was informed that this was not a good idea=2C because th
ey would be prone to cracking for some reason I can't remember. Can anyone
knowledgeable fill me in on this? Thanks.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove=2C IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne@taildraggersinc.com>
Sent: Tue=2C Oct 27=2C 2009 6:50 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: exhaust manifold
.com>
I was starting to wonder if any of these failures were due to poor exhaust
system design. Tony Bingelis makes it very clear that any system=2C regardl
ess of material or welding technique=2C will fail if it is not allowed to f
lex/expand/contract relatively unimpeded.
As David said=2C the use of ball joints=2C slip joints=2C etc would help to
ensure a long exhaust live.
I don't know if this was the problem with anybody here's exhaust. I'm just
sharing some info from the Bingelis books.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers=2C Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold |
The plating causes something called hydrogen embrittlement. Wikipedia
has a good article and explains it better than I can:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
The strength of 1,000 MPa that the article mentions as a threshold for
concern is 145,000 psi, considerably stronger than the ductile
materials used in exhaust systems, so probably there's not going to be
an issue. 4130, normalized, is about 90,000 psi and lower at the welds.
There's lots of margin there.
Although baking the parts after plating is the general solution to the
problem, according to the article it needs to be done relatively soon
after plating. So although we'd expect that the exhaust system is going
to get plenty hot enough in service, it won't happen soon enough.
It's worth mentioning that that often chrome plating companies don't
first plate with copper and then with nickel as the aerospace spec says
to do. They just plate directly with the chrome. Chrome doesn't stick
that well to steel if there's any flexing, since they have different
coefficients of thermal expansion and different modulus of elasticity
(no, I don't remember the chrome values off-hand, sorry). But we've all
seen plenty of motorcycle exhausts that were plated, successfully, so
don't worry about it. Odds are it'll be fine. Just something to check at
annual, and you'd do that anyway.
David Paule
I TIG welded my 4130 exhaust stacks on the model A, and afterward had
them chrome-plated. I was informed that this was not a good idea,
because they would be prone to cracking for some reason I can't
remember. Can anyone knowledgeable fill me in on this? Thanks.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust manifold |
Hydrogen embrittlement.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:28 PM, <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
> Good people,
>
> I TIG welded my 4130 exhaust stacks on the model A, and afterward had them
> chrome-plated. I was informed that this was not a good idea, because they
> would be prone to cracking for some reason I can't remember. Can anyone
> knowledgeable fill me in on this? Thanks.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>
--
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or
not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." --British
publisher and writer Ernest Benn (1875-1954)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: humped center section] |
Per the Lincoln Electric "TIG Weld 4130!" bulletin on the EAA website
(Homebuilders HQ / Building articles/ Tubing - Welded):
Q: Do I need to preheat?
A: Thin wall tubing (<0.120" wall) applications do not typically require th
e
normal 300 to 400F pre-heat to obtain acceptable results. However, tubing
should be at room temperature (70F) or above before welding.
Q: Do I need to heat treat (stress relieve) 4130 after welding?
A: Thin wall tubing normally does not require stress relief. For parts
thicker than .120", stress relieving is recommended and 1,100F is the
optimum temperature for tubing applications. An oxy/acetylene torch with
neutral flame can be used. It should be oscillated to avoid hot spots.
Ryan
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>wr
ote:
> Jack,
>
> sorry for the confusion. If you MIG or TIG weld, the area must be
> preheated. If you are gas welding the preheating has already taken place
> before the area is hot enough to puddle. With MIG and TIG it, of course,
> puddles immediately without the surrounding area being preheated. In a
> nutshell no prehaeating with gas. Must preheat with MIG & TIG. 4130, th
at
> is. Also of importance is after welding 4130 must cool natually (slowly)
to
> room temp to prevent cracking.
>
> What scares a lot of people away from gas welding is the perceived myster
y
> and "art'' involved. while there is some art to keeping a good puddle
> going. most of it involves the science of proper flame, gas pressure, and
> tip size. Some good gas welding info can be found at www.tinmantech.com
> Another side benefit of gas welding... Good equipment is much cheaper.
>
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> section]
> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:40:37 -0400
>
> Actually, the repair on the way back from OSH was made by a professional
> welder, TIG welded. It lasted nearly twice as long as the first one (50
> hours). It cracked too. At the weld.
>
>
> You=92ve confused me a bit ' in your 5th sentence you said =93you can w
eld
> 4130 without preheating or fear of cracking.=94 Then 3 sentences later y
ou
> say =93With 4130 the area will need to be preheated to prevent cracking
=94.
> Which is it?
>
>
> Anyway, to some extent I agree with you ' I like oxyacetylene welding.
> However, for some applications TIG is far better. I=92ve tried gas weldi
ng
> aluminum, I=92ll leave that for the pros. I also tried gas welding stain
less
> and burned up a lot of test material without any good welds. MIG I have
no
> experience with, but I know Champion Aircraft uses MIG to build Citabrias
> and Decathlons (at least the Citabria I helped rebuild had a lot of littl
e
> twigs of welding rod stuck to it like MIG tends to leave behind).
>
>
> This was just a tip given o me that I passed along. I have not tried it,
> but it makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> NX899JP
>
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Dever
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:26 PM
>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> section]
>
>
> Something to said for gas welding. Don't have that problem. Tig and Mig
> is fast, but I'll take gas any day of the week. The best sheet metal men
> almost always use gas. You can weld 4130 without preheating or fear of
> cracking. You can weld all weldable aluminum, stainless and titanium
> (Haven't done that one yet.) With tig or mig even the slightest breeze w
ill
> blow the gas off the weld. With 4130 the area will need to be preheated
to
> prevent cracking. Tig and mig have thier place, especially in a controll
ed
> production environment. I bet if you exhaust was gas welded by a compete
nt
> welder it wouldn't have cracked. Just my .02
>
> Doug Dever
> In beautiful Stow Ohio
>
>
> > From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net
> > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> section]
> > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:02:44 -0400
> >
> pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>
> >
> > For those contemplating stainless steel ehaust systems, let me share a
> > little pearl of wisdom that I learned just a bit too late:
> >
> > My original exhaust system on my Pietenpol was TIG welded stainless
> steel,
> > welded by my neighbor (who also welded my aluminum fuel tank). The weld
s
> > looked good, but after about 30 hours of operation, the left stack brok
e
> off
> > and was only kept from departing the airplane by the SCAT hose on the
> heat
> > muff. I had my neighbor re-weld it, with an additional strut to help
> > distribute the load. Then I flew the airplane to Brodhead and OSH (this
> was
> > in 2005). On the way home, the right side stack broke off and was again
> > held in place by the SCAT hose. I had to find a local welder make
> emergency
> > repairs so I could make it home.
> >
> > I decided that stainless was simply not a good choice and made a whole
> new
> > set from plain carbon steel, which I could weld myself. No problem with
> it,
> > except that it has begun to rust. In another 10 years or so I'll have t
o
> > replace it.
> >
> > Meanwhile, I was talking to a fellow who makes exhaust systems for race
> cars
> > (TIG welded stainless), telling him of my troubles. He asked "What did
> you
> > do to shield the inside of the tubing?"
> >
> > I just looked at him with a stupid look on my face (fairly easy for me
to
> > do), and said "Huh?"
> >
> > He said, "TIG shields the area around the weld with argon gas to preven
t
> the
> > weld from burning, but with such thin walled material, the metal on the
> > inside of the tube is just as hot as the outside. You've got to shield
it
> > as well."
> >
> > He said that when he does a job like this, he plugs one end of the tube
,
> > then turns on the gas from the TIG torch and uses it to flood the entir
e
> > tube with Argon. He tests to see if he has enough by striking a match a
nd
> > inserting it into the tube. If it doesn't go out immediately, he knows
he
> > doesn't have enough Argon to shield the weld.
> >
> > So when it comes time to replace my exhaust system again, I may give
> > stainless another try, using this technique.
> >
> > Jack Phillips
> > NX899JP
> > Raleigh, NC
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> > Boatright
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
> > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: exhaust manifold [was Re: Pietenpol-List: humped center
> > section]
> >
>
> >
> > I'd have an aviation-oriented guy do them, if I were you. I paid top
> > dollar for welds on my stainless pipes. One lasted a month, another
> > lasted three more. My hangar mate welded up a replacement for the one
> > that departed the plane (I've often wondered where it landed...) and
> > patch welded the other that was set to depart. His welds don't LOOK
> > as good, but they've lasted. Also, stick with mild steel. Stainless
> > costs more and still gives problems. I'd rather have slow rust than
> > immediate and catastrophic failure.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Clif, Gary, Rick,
> > >
> > >Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go the "commercial" route
> > >and sub this work out to an exhaust shop - there are a couple in the
> > >Twin Cities area. If it takes me 4 days to reply to a simple email
> > >- how long would it take me to get the pipes done! I don't even
> > >want to venture guess...
> > >
> > >Thanks again,
> > >Dan
> > >
> > >--
> > >Dan Yocum
> > >Fermilab 630.840.6509
> > >yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> > >Fermilab. Just zeros and ones.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> &g=================
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more.<http://www.microsoft.com/Windows
/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_ever
green1:102009>
>
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>
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> ronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Push/pull tubes and rod ends |
I believe pink paint is also lighter.
do not archive
It's kind of rainy up here, too.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Sat 24/10/2009 12:18 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
I don't understand what advantage you are trying to
achieve here, other than to be "different". You could accomplish that
by
painting it Pink.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 10:52 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
... Since I am all about saving weight on my plane ...
Message 23
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| Subject: | Aircraft built by BHP (was) Push/pull tubes and rod |
ends
Not to start a whole new mess here, but the statement that BHP never
built two aircraft exactly the same is a bit of a stretch, I think. I
can't track down the exact number, but if my memory serves, he built
more than twenty Air Campers, and numerous kits during the Thirties. I
would bet dollars-to-donuts that the vast majority of those were built
EXACTLY the same, using the same jigs, and the same set-ups.
Yes, he designed the aircraft, and Yes, he made changes as the design
progressed, but to suggest that every plane was unique is stretching
things a bit far.
As for the statement about "you morons", where did that come from? In
following that thread, I didn't ever see anyone use those words.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ivan.todorovic
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:54 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
--> <tosha@sezampro.rs>
I see it exactly the opposite of you. The main reason to consider (I'm
not saying build) deviating from the plans is to honor the B. Pietenpol
spirit of always build safer and better flying aircraft. There is no
need to cure the deficiency in the design, reason enough is to make B.P.
happy in heavens, as he is known not to build two exactly the same
aircraft and to be as far from "purist" as he can be. After all he
abandoned one of the most significant marks of his design (Ford engine)
as soon as he got a chance to do it. I deeply beleive if he can see
someone building Piet with Ford enigne in 2009 he would think for him
self "Oh, no, another ..... building by the plans".
The amount of hate in the form "Oh, I just flew my Piet, and you morons
talk about something better instead to build by the plans like me" is
getting quite disturbing. There is no wonder people got annoyed. There
is no single thread in which some deviation from the plans is mentioned
that is not rapidly shut with flood of "Why, why, why, when this design
confirmed it self for 80 years?" messegaes. To honor B.P, is there any
other reason needed?
Regards,
and please don't mind the rough tone, I got excited how this thread is
cut of, and I am very interested in building with pushrods for several
reasons, Ivan Todorovic
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft built by BHP (was) Push/pull tubes and rod |
ends
Who cares I don't!
Russell
270 300 9725
don not archive
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>wrote:
> eng@canadianrogers.com>
>
>
> Not to start a whole new mess here, but the statement that BHP never
> built two aircraft exactly the same is a bit of a stretch, I think. I
> can't track down the exact number, but if my memory serves, he built
> more than twenty Air Campers, and numerous kits during the Thirties. I
> would bet dollars-to-donuts that the vast majority of those were built
> EXACTLY the same, using the same jigs, and the same set-ups.
> Yes, he designed the aircraft, and Yes, he made changes as the design
> progressed, but to suggest that every plane was unique is stretching
> things a bit far.
>
> As for the statement about "you morons", where did that come from? In
> following that thread, I didn't ever see anyone use those words.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> ivan.todorovic
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:54 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Push/pull tubes and rod ends
>
> --> <tosha@sezampro.rs>
>
> I see it exactly the opposite of you. The main reason to consider (I'm
> not saying build) deviating from the plans is to honor the B. Pietenpol
> spirit of always build safer and better flying aircraft. There is no
> need to cure the deficiency in the design, reason enough is to make B.P.
> happy in heavens, as he is known not to build two exactly the same
> aircraft and to be as far from "purist" as he can be. After all he
> abandoned one of the most significant marks of his design (Ford engine)
> as soon as he got a chance to do it. I deeply beleive if he can see
> someone building Piet with Ford enigne in 2009 he would think for him
> self "Oh, no, another ..... building by the plans".
>
> The amount of hate in the form "Oh, I just flew my Piet, and you morons
> talk about something better instead to build by the plans like me" is
> getting quite disturbing. There is no wonder people got annoyed. There
> is no single thread in which some deviation from the plans is mentioned
> that is not rapidly shut with flood of "Why, why, why, when this design
> confirmed it self for 80 years?" messegaes. To honor B.P, is there any
> other reason needed?
>
> Regards,
> and please don't mind the rough tone, I got excited how this thread is
> cut of, and I am very interested in building with pushrods for several
> reasons, Ivan Todorovic
>
>
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