Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis (Jack Phillips)
2. 04:52 AM - Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons (helspersew@aol.com)
3. 06:45 AM - Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons (Gene Rambo)
4. 07:08 AM - The Red Sparrows (Lagowski Morrow)
5. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis (David Paule)
6. 11:44 AM - Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons (Michael Perez)
7. 11:50 AM - Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons (Michael Perez)
8. 01:48 PM - Re: Quick disconnect front control stick (Dan Yocum)
9. 03:31 PM - Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009 (airlion)
10. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: ELSA registration (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
11. 04:49 PM - Progress from Cool Propeller Co. (Gary Boothe)
12. 06:56 PM - Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co. (David Paule)
13. 07:11 PM - Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis |
I for one am very dissappointed in the lack of flames over this topic. What
has this list degenerated to? Here a person of experience and integrity
offers real wisdom based on fact, and spouts opinions that fly in the face
of desire, and no one takes him to task?
Good post, Gene.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Gene,
All of the concerns you've expressed are, in my opinion, dead on.
Especially those concerning the control system. Thanks for braving the
flames.
Mike Hardaway
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Allright, I post things on here from time to time and sometimes get
criticism, most times get ignored, but occasionally get listened to. I do
not know everyone's background on here, some of us are A&P's, don't know how
many IA's, some are engineers, and some have experience building/maintaining
other aircraft. I'll just say that I have been doing this long enough that
I deserve to at least be listened to.
There are several threads going right now that I would like to express a
couple of suggestions abput, but the statement below scares the hell out of
me. So, starting with that one, I think that the logic behind this
statement leads to a spiral to the bottom. If you make every decision based
on the relative strength of the part in question being compared to the
strength of what it is connected to, you will end up with an airplane made
out of paper. I can certainly see an instance where the stainless steel
bolt holding the tail brace wires could fail after hours of vibration (which
those wires absolutely do to the fitting/bolt) long before the wood would
fail. No tail brace wires, tail folds, you're dead. I stand by my earlier
statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless
hardware in a structural application. Yes, there are some exotic materials
used in engines, particularly jets, and there may be some in specific
military applications, but not in certificated general aviation aircraft.
Years ago, we had to fight tooth and nail with the FAA to even get them to
allow stainless hardware replacements in cowling/inspection panels, which is
the norm today.
There is a lot of discussion regarding control stops. I personally do not
think the aircraft needs them. There were a lot of aircraft from this era
that did not have them, and they do not appear in the plans. That said, I
do not question anyone who wishes to install them, it is not a bad idea. I
do get concerned, however, with any limitation to control travel that
includes some mechanical blockage in the control system other than at one
end of the system, either the control surface or at the stick/rudder bar.
Next to a total structural failure, the next worse thing that could happen
to an aircraft is a control jam, particularly in the elevator system. I
would ask any of you to seriously reconsider a physical limitation in the
middle of the system, it is typically not allowed. I would also suggest
that it be on one end or the other of the system, not at both ends which,
again, is not the norm.
The last most recent discussion is over wooden control sticks. They can be
beautiful, there is nothing necessarily wrong with them, but we should
consider a couple of things with the Piet. Because of the design of the
system, the bottom of the stick below the cable attachments is a real
structural part of the control system. Wood is fine for structural use
(I.e. the rest of the airplane) but only if the piece is sufficient size. A
1" diameter piece of wood would probably not be strong enough in this
location, it should be much larger. Also consider that the bolt at the
cable attachments would be rotating, a definite no-no in wood. It appears
that someone has made a steel bottom and put a wooden stick in above that.
That may be fine, but is would be a huge stress at the junction point. I
know of at least one friend who was killed when a wooden control stick broke
off (Waco) and I would not like to have another.
Feel free to flame at will, but please at least consider the above
suggestions. So much of this airplane lends itself to personalization
and/or experimentation, but there are some areas that are tried and proven
and should not be altered without serious consideration.
Gene Rambo
(ducking for cover)
----- Original Message -----
From: vahowdy@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I think all this talk about the strength of SS is much to do about
nothing. The wood in the tail will fail well before even grade 3 bolt will
fail. Bolt two 1 by's together, strand one and pull on the other. See what
fails first.
Howdy
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons |
Gene,
Your tirade has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1/4"
prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to ho
ld the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that
airplane for a thousand hours without that longeron breaking there.
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from
the smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when afte
r 1000+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the to
p 1" x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used
to hold on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the
horizontal stabilizer" NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons |
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail. A
screw pushes fibers aside and goes between them. the prongs are sharp
and cut the fibers. Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in,
they are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area. Some of
the nutplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and
they are arranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on). If
the nutplate is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like
having a 1/2" bolt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.
I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an
observation made by someone else that I think is valid and should be at
least considered. I am not saying that using one will cause you to
crash, I might still use them myself, but I think the suggestion someone
had about glueing on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into
is a great idea!
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew@aol.com<mailto:helspersew@aol.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
Gene,
Your tirade has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those
1/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used
to hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can
fly that airplane for a thousand hours without that longeron breaking
there.
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away
from the smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained
when after 1000+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in
both the top 1" x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws
that were used to hold on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts
that held down the horizontal stabilizer" NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
Message 4
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| Subject: | The Red Sparrows |
For some holiday humor go to WWW.Youtube.com and search this subject. I
can see it now, The Pietenpol Pidgeons. Merry Xmas out there.--Jim
Lagowski
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis |
Do to a popular desire for flames, I will make this comment:
If you're replacing hardware on a certified aircraft, be certain that it
meets the same specification. Don't just assume it's a 125 ksi steel
bolt, go look up the parts breakdown for that plane and be sure of what
you're installing.
Happy holidays, folks!
David Paule
I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any certified
aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural application.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons |
I would agree. For those who have driven hundreds of small nails in all of
those gussets, and who knows where else, I would not worry. Nails, small sc
rews, staples...quite a few wood planes are full of them.-- I find it h
arder to believe that Gene would drill a 3/4" hole through a gusset then to
pound in a couple pronged nut plates.
-
However, he did say this was an observation more then anything else, so, po
int noted.
--- On Sun, 12/20/09, helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com> wrote:
From: helspersew@aol.com <helspersew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Gene,
-
Your-tirade-has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1
/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to
hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that
airplane for a thousand-hours without that longeron breaking there.
-
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from th
e smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when after 10
00+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the top 1"
x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used to hol
d on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the horizon
tal stabilizer"- NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons |
Along those same ideas...I have made it a habit of gluing in a 1/16" or thi
cker piece of plywood where ever I drill through holes in the spruce.- Th
ese plywood plates in effect tie the spruce grain together around said dril
led hole.- The ply will also support the washers/nuts better then the sof
t pine when tightened. Just something I have been doing since day one.
--- On Sun, 12/20/09, Gene Rambo <generambo@msn.com> wrote:
From: Gene Rambo <generambo@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail.- A s
crew pushes fibers aside and goes between them.- the prongs are sharp and
cut the fibers.- Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in, the
y are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area.- Some of the nu
tplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and they are a
rranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on).- If the nutplat
e is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like having a 1/2" b
olt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.
-
I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an observation
made by someone else-that I think is valid and should be at least conside
red.- I am not saying that using one will cause you to crash, I might sti
ll use them myself, but-I think the suggestion someone had about glueing
on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into is a great idea!
-
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Gene,
-
Your-tirade-has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1
/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to
hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that
airplane for a thousand-hours without that longeron breaking there.
-
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from th
e smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when after 10
00+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the top 1"
x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used to hol
d on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the horizon
tal stabilizer"- NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
>www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cti
tle=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Quick disconnect front control stick |
My 95 year old grandfather who has spent 85+ years in the woods (and who
is blind in one eye and can't see out of the other due to severe macular
degeneration) recently acquired the nickname "Stumpy" after reaching to
pull away a "branch" he had just cut. It was the bar of the saw and the
chain was still spinning. He said, "I could feel it chewing on the bone
a bit."
I'm not a real lumberjack but I play one on the internet...
I'm off to go press some flowers, now.
do not archive
John Hofmann wrote:
> Sage words from Dan "three finger" Yocum!
>
> do not archive
>
>
> John Hofmann
> Vice-President, Information Technology
> The Rees Group, Inc.
> 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
> Madison, WI 53718
> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
> Fax: 608.443.2474
> Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com <mailto:jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
>
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:03 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
>
>> <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>>
>>
>> Gary,
>>
>> A word to the wise, keep the bar of the saw buried in the wood, right
>> up to where it attaches to the engine. Do NOT try to cut with the tip
>> of the blade. If it kicks back and you're not prepared, you could
>> lose an arm (or a head...). If it kicks and the bar is buried, then
>> it won't kick far. You'll also have better control over the saw with
>> it buried in the wood and you can use the grabber teeth on the engine
>> to lever your way through (a little - it's still better to just let it
>> go through at it's own pace).
>>
>> Good luck!
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> Gary Boothe wrote:
>>> <gboothe5@comcast.net <mailto:gboothe5@comcast.net>>
>>> Will do. I expect to spend 2 weekends...unless I really get over my
>>> trepidation about using a chainsaw!
>>> Gary Boothe
>>> Cool, Ca.
>>> Pietenpol
>>> WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
>>> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
>>> (16 ribs down.)
>>
>> --
>> Dan Yocum
>> Fermilab 630.840.6509
>> yocum@fnal.gov <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
>> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty --
>> Please Support Your Lists This (And Get * The Builder's
>> Bookstore
>> http://www.matronics.com/co -Matt Dralle,
>> List - The -->
>> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matr &n============
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009 |
Maybe ,if I can get the 40 hours flown off. It still has to be inspected in Jan.
Gardiner Mason
________________________________
From: Mac Zirges <macz@casco.net>
Sent: Mon, January 1, 1990 4:37:46 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Gardiner--
Your Piet looks great! Are you going to fly it to
Brodhead this year?
--Mac in Oregon
----- Original Message -----
>From: airlion
>To: pietenpol
>Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:22
> PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and
> his Pietenpol, December 2009
>
>
>Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have
> a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed.
> He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the
> results. Cheers, Gardiner
>
>
>----- Forwarded Message ----
>From: Susan Mason <susangmason@gmail.com>
>To: Gardiner Mason <airlion@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12
> PM
>Subject: Gardiner and his
> Pietenpol, December 2009
>
> >
________________________________
>
>:
> 4/6/07 12:00 AM
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA registration |
Thank, all o y'all (that is the plural, plural of y'all.) for the answer on E-LSA
vs E Amature built on a totally different aircraft. It appears that the only
difference is if he can do the "annual" or if he needs and A&P to do it. I have
sent him this info and he is thinking about leaving it as E-amature built.
He kind of likes the idea of a second set of eyes looking over his work every
year.
Blue Skies and Merry Christmas,
Steve D
Message 11
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| Subject: | Progress from Cool Propeller Co. |
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the
chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too
much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as it's easy
to get fatigued and lose concentration.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co. |
Gary,
It's very impressive.
And without any major bloodstains, too. Excellent work.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get
thru the chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not
taken off too much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I
thought, as it's easy to get fatigued and lose concentration.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons |
How come you guys are insisting on going through the longerons?
In my post on using the pronged nutplates I specificaly said I wasn't
doing that. I have an extra crossmember under the leading edge.
There's already a 1/8" ply plate there,. Put another one across under
the longerons, or even 1/4" thick if you think you have to. Bolt through
the crossmember and plate. I firmly believe that there should be an
absolute minimum of holes in the longerons. Especialy considering
that those nuts require a 5/16" hole to fit into.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
sure, that would be a great alternative. Like I said, I only offered
the observation for consideration. Another reason I am not using the
pronged nutplates is that when I drilled the bolts through the main spar
and longerons, the hole comes out behind a gusset very close to a joint,
so I cannot get to the back side to back-drill for the nutplate (which
is a larger diameter than the bolt size)
not that anyone else might want to do this, but my plan is to drill a
large hole in the outboard gusset (3/4 or so) and because the fabric is
tight against the side of the fuselage in that area, just glueing the
fabric to the gusset and then cutting out the hole. Than I can use one
of those round pronged hole covers (or even a small aluminum cover and
screws) to hide the hole. That way, I can put nuts on after the
fuselage is covered.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Bressler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
Gene,
Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to sink
into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This may or may
not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but it may be with
considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to use a slightly longer
bolt.
I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's
just a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I just
have ideas sometimes.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo" <generambo@msn.com> wrote:
at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to
my earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the below,
although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was planning on
using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who owns an aircraft
restoration business and whose opinion I value greatly) pointed out to
me one day, he said "look at those prongs, wood is composed of long
fibers and when those prongs bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of
the fibers in the location" The more I thought about it, I think he is
right. Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in
a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location by as
much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I still wish I
could. I am just throwing out the observation for everyone's
consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection to using staples
on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)
Gene
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/
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href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
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title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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