Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:58 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Ryan Mueller)
2. 05:33 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (wildhorsesracing)
3. 05:42 AM - Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (amsafetyc@aol.com)
4. 06:02 AM - Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez)
5. 06:06 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Jack Phillips)
6. 06:25 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Craig Steffen)
7. 06:33 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Richard Schreiber)
8. 06:35 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Jim Ash)
9. 06:46 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Jeff Boatright)
10. 06:48 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE)
11. 07:42 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez)
12. 08:02 AM - My welding so far (Michael Perez)
13. 08:08 AM - More welding pictures (Michael Perez)
14. 08:11 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Jack Phillips)
15. 08:23 AM - Re: My welding so far (Jack Phillips)
16. 08:23 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Richard Schreiber)
17. 08:24 AM - Re: My welding so far (Dan Yocum)
18. 08:25 AM - Re: More welding pictures (Dan Yocum)
19. 08:31 AM - Re: My welding so far (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com)
20. 08:38 AM - Re: More welding pictures (K5YAC)
21. 08:56 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Roman Bukolt)
22. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: More welding pictures (Michael Perez)
23. 09:21 AM - Re: More welding pictures (K5YAC)
24. 09:22 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Roman Bukolt)
25. 09:23 AM - Fw: Re: Composit fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE)
26. 09:52 AM - Re: My welding so far (Jack)
27. 10:30 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez)
28. 10:30 AM - Re: My welding so far (Michael Perez)
29. 12:33 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Wayne Bressler)
30. 01:34 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Silvius)
31. 01:56 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE)
32. 02:12 PM - Re: Fuel tank Questions (Jack Phillips)
33. 02:55 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (gliderx5@comcast.net)
34. 03:07 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Silvius)
35. 04:04 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Ameet Savant)
36. 04:53 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez)
37. 04:54 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Jeff Boatright)
38. 04:54 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez)
39. 04:55 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (David Paule)
40. 05:38 PM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (airlion)
41. 08:10 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Steve Ruse)
42. 08:33 PM - Austin Visit (kevinpurtee)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? |
Jim,
I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage Piets out
there off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go:
There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick list of
the various fuselages there are plans for:
Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel
1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood
Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood
Ryan
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of wood?
>
> For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f fuselage was
> synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going through the supplemental
> drawings to add up tubing lengths to put together a Dillsburg order, and now
> I see the t&f fuselage is actually a couple inches shorter than the standard
> wood.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? |
I just ordered a set of plans and the front page is a complete steel diagram -
the top longeron is 5/8 x .035
-jim pantas
www.wildhorsesracing.com
________________________________
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:58:11 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric?
Jim,
I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage Piets out there
off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go:
There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick list of the various
fuselages there are plans for:
Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel
1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood
Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood
Ryan
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of wood?
>
>>For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f fuselage was synonymous
with the long fuselage. I was just going through the supplemental drawings
to add up tubing lengths to put together a Dillsburg order, and now I see
the t&f fuselage is actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood.
>
>>Jim Ash
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount |
of travel
Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the
axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good
landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard
landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in
the axle and how much is provided by the bungee's.
Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for
?
Thanks
John
Message 4
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Subject: | Composit fuel tanks |
In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass cloth and epoxy.
I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone here have any experience
with this idea? I would like to know what I need to buy to get started. I see
there are a few foams to choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else
to get. Thanks.
Message 5
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Subject: | Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & |
amount of travel
Depends on how hard you land.
Seriously, I have seen about 3" of travel on my axle, but my guide pins
allow for 6"
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
amsafetyc@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees &
amount of travel
Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the
axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good
landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard
landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in the
axle and how much is provided by the bungee's.
Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for
?
Thanks
John
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
> I would like to know what I need to buy to get started. I see there are a few
foams to
> choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else to get. Thanks.
Keep in mind that foam + epoxy technology comprises a system, just
like primer+paint, so you need to make sure that everything works
together. My dim memory is that traditional epoxies go with
styrafoam; that's the system that Burt Rutan's designs use (styrafoam
dissolves in gasoline, BTW)(can be hot-wired). Then Eurathane foams,
which work with vinylester epoxies, don't dissolve in gasoline, but
are toxic to cut with heat.
I may have the details wrong, but my point is that make sure that foam
+ epoxy + coating/primer/paint technology all goes together.
Craig Steffen
Message 7
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Subject: | Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & |
amount of travel
Jack:
What size tubes did you use for the guide pins in the axle and for the tubes on
the landing gear?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips
Sent: 1/14/2010 8:11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees &
amount of travel
Depends on how hard you land.
Seriously, I have seen about 3 of travel on my axle, but my guide pins allow for
6
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of amsafetyc@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount
of travel
Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the axle
mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good landing
and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard landing. I
am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in the axle and how
much is provided by the bungee's.
Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for ?
Thanks
John
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? |
What does it say about the tube diameters from station 2 to 13 and 2 to 12?
The drawing I'm looking at says "1937 AIR CAMPER WITH 1960 CORVAIR ENGINE" at the
top.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
From: wildhorsesracing
Sent: Jan 14, 2010 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric?
I just ordered a set of plans and the front page is a complete steel diagram -
the top longeron is 5/8 x .035
-jim pantas
www.wildhorsesracing.com
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:58:11 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric?
Jim,
I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage Piets out there
off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go:
There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick list of the various
fuselages there are plans for:
Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel
1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood
Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood
Ryan
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of wood?
For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f fuselage was synonymous
with the long fuselage. I was just going through the supplemental drawings
to add up tubing lengths to put together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the
t&f fuselage is actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood.
Jim Ash
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
What are the upsides and downsides to making tanks from composites
versus aluminum versus galvanized steel? I'm curious what the list
has to say.
>In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass
>cloth and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone
>here have any experience with this idea? I would like to know what I
>need to buy to get started. I see there are a few foams to choose
>from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else to get. Thanks.
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Michael:
I don't have the information you need (which glass cloth - resin, etc.)
here with me at the office but I will try to find it this evening. I do
have a section on my build log that covers building a fiberglass tank with
help from my son who does this every day at Scaled Composites. There
might be some information there which would prove useful. I can tell you
that using the right cloth is critical since you will have a lot of
corners and curves in your tank and a lot of cloth choices are made for
laying up large flat sections. These cloths do not take to compound
curves well.
http://www.eaa1344.com/Projects/Stinemetze/wing_center_section.htm
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS
N328X
>>> Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> 1/14/2010 8:00 AM >>>
In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass cloth
and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone here have any
experience with this idea? I would like to know what I need to buy to get
started. I see there are a few foams to choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am
not clear on what else to get. Thanks.
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
I would love any help you can provide Tom. I have a very, very long time Lo
ng EZ builder/pilot whom I will chat with as well. From the Bingelis book,
it seems pretty straight forward, but some of the lingo. in the book does n
ot jive with current lingo. used in A. Spruce. So, I am struggling with wha
t to buy and how to use/apply the new products.
-
I won't be willing to do this until summer so I can be outside, but I would
like to be ready to dive in when the time is right.
-
Please, for those who have some experience, continue to post.
-
BTW "lingo." is current and correct aviation language...
Message 12
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Subject: | My welding so far |
I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress,
so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I
have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results.
Message 13
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Subject: | More welding pictures |
More of my welding so far.
Message 14
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Subject: | Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & |
amount of travel
I don=92t remember exactly, but I think the guide pins were =BD=94
.049=94 wall and
the collar they ride in was =BE=94 .035=94 wall. Really don=92t
remember and the
airplane is not where I can easily measure it (It=92s in Virginia, I=92m
in
North Carolina). Just make sure there is plenty of =93slop=94 around
the guide
pins so they won=92t bind if one wheel hits a pothole.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on
bungees & amount of travel
Jack:
What size tubes did you use for the guide pins in the axle and for the
tubes
on the landing gear?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack <mailto:pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Phillips
Sent: 1/14/2010 8:11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on
bungees & amount of travel
Depends on how hard you land.
Seriously, I have seen about 3=14 of travel on my axle, but my guide
pins
allow for 6=14
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
amsafetyc@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on
bungees &
amount of travel
Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on
the
axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a
good
landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a
hard
landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in
the
axle and how much is provided by the bungee's.
Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow
for
?
Thanks
John
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<>
Message 15
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Subject: | My welding so far |
Looks good, Mike
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far
I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in
progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG
time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am
happy with the results.
Message 16
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Subject: | Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & |
amount of travel
Thanks Jack:
That's pretty much what size I was going to use as it looked about right and I
had scrap tubing around that size.
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips
Sent: 1/14/2010 10:13:56 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees &
amount of travel
I dont remember exactly, but I think the guide pins were .049 wall and the collar
they ride in was .035 wall. Really dont remember and the airplane is not
where I can easily measure it (Its in Virginia, Im in North Carolina). Just
make sure there is plenty of slop around the guide pins so they wont bind if
one wheel hits a pothole.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: My welding so far |
Very nice, in my book.
On 01/14/2010 10:02 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in
> progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a
> LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now
> and am happy with the results.
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: More welding pictures |
Well, now you're just bragging.
;-)
It's been a long time since I've touched flame to steel, but all these
look great to me. I'm no professional welder, so if someone else sees a
problem, speak up.
On 01/14/2010 10:05 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> More of my welding so far.
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 19
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Subject: | My welding so far |
Mighty fine welds.....
Brian
SLC-UT
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far
I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in
progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a
LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now
and am happy with the results.
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: More welding pictures |
Yeah, no kidding. Fabulous work.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281475#281475
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? |
NX20795 is a long tube and fabric Piet. Also the tail components are
tube and fabric.
Roman Bukolt
On Jan 13, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash wrote:
>
>
>
> Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of
> wood?
>
> For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f
> fuselage was synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going
> through the supplemental drawings to add up tubing lengths to put
> together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the t&f fuselage is
> actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: More welding pictures |
To be honest, I used a lot of scrap and a lot of filler doing practice weld
s long before what you see in this post! I was burning holes in steel, grou
nding the electrode to the metal and filler, dropping the metal, (no clampi
ng) etc. At times I thought I would never get it!
-
The welds were done with a Lincoln V205-T-TIG. I used ER 80S-D2 filler ro
d.
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: More welding pictures |
Holy smokes... I must have missed this part. I thought that you gassed those.
[Shocked]
Still real nice looking work.
> speedbrake(at)sbcglobal said...
>
> The welds were done with a Lincoln V205-T TIG. I used ER 80S-D2 filler rod.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281486#281486
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? |
My set of plans including the supplemental plans include a steel tube
fuselage that is 14' 2"
NX20795
On Jan 14, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage
> Piets out there off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go:
>
> There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick
> list of the various fuselages there are plans for:
>
> Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel
> 1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood
> Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of
> wood?
>
> For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f
> fuselage was synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going
> through the supplemental drawings to add up tubing lengths to put
> together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the t&f fuselage is
> actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Michael:
I did a little research on the Aircraft Spruce site to see what I
remembered about fiberglass cloth and resin choices. Here is what I used:
(Note: these are not the only acceptable choices. Listen closely to your
local guru and use what he is familiar with!)
Cloth - BID (or Bi-Directional) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpag
es/rutan.php - My first purchase (before I asked for advice) was not
bi-directional and it was MUCH HARDER to get to lay down properly. Note
that Aircraft Spruce calls this a "Rutan" cloth. At Scaled Composites
they use this stuff exclusively.
Resin - EZ Poxy - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/ezpoxy.php
- I started out with the 1 1/2 quart kit and eventually had to purchase a
second kit. This stuff has to be mixed )resin -hardener) in the correct
proportions by weight but this is not difficult. I used a cheap postal
scale with disposable butter tubs and a small handheld calculator in a
plastic sandwich bag. Just put the ratio in the calculator's memory, zero
out the postal scale with the empty tub on it, pour in the how much resin
you want in that batch, calculate the weight of hardener needed and add
that to the weight of resin already in the tub, add hardener carefully
until the tub weighs what you calculated, and then stir thoroughly (for a
couple of minutes at least) with a stir stick and you're ready to go.
Roving - I was able to obtain some of the Rutan S-Glass but the smaller
quantity of the 3M product should do just as well. http://www.aircraftspruc
e.com/menus/cm/fiberglass_strands.html - This long string of glass fiber
is wetted out with resin and laid in any gaps that have to be filled. If
you looked at my build site, this is what was used to fill the gaps when
the four quarters of the tank were rejoined.
Corner tapes - There are different fiberglass tapes available but - after
the fact - it would have been much simpler to have just cut some from the
BID and they would have laid down and wetted out a lot easier.
Scissors - buy a cheap pair at a discount store. They will be mostly
finished at the same time as your project.
Resin applicators - Get the cheapest 1" to 1 1/2" paint brushes you can
find and cut off the bristles to about 1/2 their length.
Stir sticks - use craft sticks or popsicle sticks cut off square on one
end. You will need a bunch of these.
Mold release agent - there are commercial products for this but you can
also use auto wax or household wax. Candle wax is too hard.
Foam - We used the 1 1/2" thick blue foam that is used for house insulation
. You can get this relatively cheaply at any lumber yard and it does not
release toxic fumes when cut with a hot wire.
Temporary barriers - good quality trash bags and wide clear boxing tape.
You will want to cover your work surface with trash bags if nothing else.
Both the trash bags and the tape can be coated with mold release so you
can lay up directly on them but still be able to get the part off later.
Hot Wire - You can make this tool pretty easily out of scraps you probably
have around the shop. See my build site for a couple of ideas. You will
need a rheostat to control the power. Try Radio Shack or similar. Use
safety wire for the cutting wire. I tried several different wires from
the hardware store and none of the others would last very long.
Mixing cups - start saving up butter tubs and the like. They are also
very useful for mixing T-88. ( I use the lids mostly.) When you are
mixing resin/hardener you will not be able to reuse the tub. Don't make
each batch larger than necessary as you have to stop when the batch starts
to kick or you will end up messing up that layer and have a major sanding
job before you can continue. (voice of experience)
That's all I can think of at the moment. Working with fiberglass is a lot
of fun, if fairly messy. Once you have built something with it you start
looking for other things that you could use it for. I have plans to build
a new mailbox in the shape of SpaceShipOne - if I ever get enough of the
Pietenpol done to move it out of the shop.
Best of luck on your project
Tom Stinemetze
N328X
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Subject: | My welding so far |
Yea Michael.but are they strong? JUST KIDDING beautiful work!!!!
Jack
DSM
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 10:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far
I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in
progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG
time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am
happy with the results.
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Thanks Tom. The Bingelis book write up talked about laying out the cloth/epoxy
over the foam flat on a table, then when dry, cut it up into the pieces need to
make the tank. I don't think there is any molds required. (not clear yet.) I
hope I can get in touch with the Long EZ guy...it has been a long time. I don't
know how much experience he has with this method.
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Subject: | My welding so far |
I wasn't worried about strength, just aesthetics!=C2- (I building a hanga
r queen...)=C2- 8^[)
--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Jack <jack@textors.com> wrote:
From: Jack <jack@textors.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far
Yea Michaelbut are they strong?=C2- JUST KIDDING beautiful work!
!!!
Jack
DSM
=C2-
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 10:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far
=C2-
I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progr
ess, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time s
ince I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy w
ith the results.
=C2-
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Jeff,
In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of
construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank
and an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in each.
I remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but aluminum
is unaffected by any fuel.
It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd
shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel.
I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm pretty
sure it's covered in the Bingelis books.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
On Jan 14, 2010, at 9:45 AM, Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu> wrote:
> What are the upsides and downsides to making tanks from composites
> versus aluminum versus galvanized steel? I'm curious what the list
> has to say.
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Vinyl ester resin apears to be the only resin that offers resistance to
the ethanol in modern autofuels. The ethanol seems to degrade epoxies
and polyesters including some tank sealer/ slosh compounds. Vinyl ester
is also the standard in fuel tanks for boatbuilding. It is also a bit
cheaper.
"vinyl ester resin is formulated for maximum corrosion resistance to
most fuels, vapors, and both acidic and basic chemicals. It is also heat
resistant and blended for toughness. These qualities make it perfect for
repairing tank linings, blistering boat hulls, as well as fabricating
tough all-around parts. Catalyze with 1.25% MEKP, Shelf Life Limited to
3 months".
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-vinyl-ester-d_785.h
tml
http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Vinyl_Ester_Resins
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vinylester.php
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Bressler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks
Jeff,
In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of
construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank and
an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in each. I
remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but aluminum is
unaffected by any fuel.
It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd
shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel.
I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm pretty
sure it's covered in the Bingelis books.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Mike:
OK, now you've got me worried. My fiberglass tank was built with E-Z Poxy
from Aircraft Spruce. According to the MSDS data sheet the mixture is:
Glycidyl ethers of bisphenol A resins and Tri(dimethylaminomethyl)phenol
What in tarnation does that mean? Is my tank going to fall apart and dump
12 gallons (more or less) on my little head?
I think I will obtain some Gasohol, fill up the tank, and let it sit in a
nice quiet place for a couple of months and see how it is doing. I've got
plenty of other things I can be working on.
Tom Stinemetze
N328X
>>> "Michael Silvius" <silvius@gwi.net> 1/14/2010 3:29 PM >>>
Vinyl ester resin apears to be the only resin that offers resistance to
the ethanol in modern autofuels. The ethanol seems to degrade epoxies and
polyesters including some tank sealer/ slosh compounds. Vinyl ester is
also the standard in fuel tanks for boatbuilding. It is also a bit
cheaper.
Message 32
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Subject: | Fuel tank Questions |
Carson, I did much the same thing, although I put a fuel pickup in every
corner of the tank so I could never be starved for fuel. Good thing is,
I've only got about a tablespoon of unusable fuel in the tank. Bad thing is
routing the fuel system is a bear, bringing fuel from 4 different pickups to
one shutoff valve, and then forward to the engine. I use a vented cap and
have never had any problems at all with the fuel system.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of carson
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank Questions
Hi All
I have just spent 2 hrs looking for the answers when I should have been out
in the shed building so I will ask now go to the shed build and await your
replies.
I am planning on building an aluminum tank with the bottom the same camber
as the bottom of the wing with an outlet in the front right and rear
right,Could there be any problems with this? Has anyone else done the same?
Also if one of the pickups was to become starved of fuel would this make an
air bubble in the system? If yes is that what a header tank is for to
resolve the air bubble problem?
Or a better question what is the header tank for?
All suggestions appreciated
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281396#281396
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
I just finished the fuel tank for my Piet with the widened center section. I used
1/4 inch lastofoam sheet, sandwiched with 2 layers of 6 oz cloth and vinylester
resin. Sheets were cut to shape and assembled into the tank using cloth,
flox, and resin at the seams. This resin is supposed to hold up to ethenol. The
tank holds 18 gallons and weighs 16 lbs empty including the fuel level sender
and cap. Its very strong but seems too heavy. I went with outlets at opposite
corners and a raised diagnol ridge on the bottom to drain to the outlets. I
would probably look at using aluminum next time. I think it would be lighter.
The vinylester resin really stinks, and has a short shelf life. The first gallon
gelled before I ever got around to opening it.
Malcolm Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perez" <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:00:59 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Tom:
I am not sure if you need to panic just yet. The Long EZ crowd seems to
have had the most reported issues swith ethanol so you may want to take
a look at this thread:
http://forum.canardaviation.com/showthread.php?t=4594
"This is just an on-going experiment, and we all learn from each step.
Chris was good enough to test Jeffco - it lasted less than a year. I
tested naked MGS - it lasted about 6 years. Perry Mick tested EZ-Poxy,
and is still going strong. So far it looks like Perry was closest to a
workable solution. My next test is EZPoxy with a Proseal liner. Of
course, one example does not prove much in any of these tests. The
experiment continues...."
I have heard good things about the POR 15 tank sealers so it may be
worth loking in to as a solution.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM STINEMETZE
Mike:
OK, now you've got me worried. My fiberglass tank was built with E-Z
Poxy from Aircraft Spruce. According to the MSDS data sheet the mixture
is:
Glycidyl ethers of bisphenol A resins and
Tri(dimethylaminomethyl)phenol What in tarnation does that mean? Is my
tank going to fall apart and dump 12 gallons (more or less) on my little
head?
I think I will obtain some Gasohol, fill up the tank, and let it sit
in a nice quiet place for a couple of months and see how it is doing.
I've got plenty of other things I can be working on.
Tom Stinemetze
N328X
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Michael,
This topic has been discussed a lot of other forums. My understanding is
that Urathane foam, any glass(S or E) and vinlyester resin is the winning
combination.
Ameet
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass cloth
> and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone here have any
> experience with this idea? I would like to know what I need to buy to get
> started. I see there are a few foams to choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am
> not clear on what else to get. Thanks.
>
> *
> *
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
I don't know about the POR 15 sealer, but I used their paint (over rust, POR) on
my GTO and that was 13 years ago...still looks great. I would think their sealer
is good stuff.
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
Wayne,
Thanks one concern I have is that, very sadly, Tony is no longer with
us so he can't update based on the new fuel formulations out there.
Avgas is still the same (but maybe not forever), but gasoline sure is
different than when Tony wrote.
Jeff
>Jeff,
>
>In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of
>construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank
>and an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in
>each. I remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but
>aluminum is unaffected by any fuel.
>
>It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd
>shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel.
>
>I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm
>pretty sure it's covered in the Bingelis books.
>
>Wayne Bressler Jr.
>Taildraggers, Inc.
><http://taildraggersinc.com>taildraggersinc.com
>
>On Jan 14, 2010, at 9:45 AM, Jeff Boatright
><<mailto:jboatri@emory.edu>jboatri@emory.edu> wrote:
>
>>What are the upsides and downsides to making tanks from composites
>>versus aluminum versus galvanized steel? I'm curious what the list
>>has to say.
>>
--
---
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
That is excellent info Malcolm. That sounds like the way Bingelis did it and the
way I was thinking. I get over the weight! I thought, being mostly foam, it
would weigh next to nothing! Maybe not. More searching. Thank you.
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
In boats, glass fuel tanks have proven troublesome. They might have been
polester, but the literature isn't specific about it.
It might be a good idea to avoid fiberglass for fuel tanks.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Silvius
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks
Vinyl ester resin apears to be the only resin that offers resistance
to the ethanol in modern autofuels. The ethanol seems to degrade epoxies
and polyesters including some tank sealer/ slosh compounds. Vinyl ester
is also the standard in fuel tanks for boatbuilding. It is also a bit
cheaper.
"vinyl ester resin is formulated for maximum corrosion resistance to
most fuels, vapors, and both acidic and basic chemicals. It is also heat
resistant and blended for toughness. These qualities make it perfect for
repairing tank linings, blistering boat hulls, as well as fabricating
tough all-around parts. Catalyze with 1.25% MEKP, Shelf Life Limited to
3 months".
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-vinyl-ester-d_785.h
tml
http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Vinyl_Ester_Resins
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vinylester.php
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Bressler
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks
Jeff,
In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of
construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank and
an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in each. I
remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but aluminum is
unaffected by any fuel.
It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd
shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel.
I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm
pretty sure it's covered in the Bingelis books.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
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Subject: | Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & |
amount of travel
________________________________
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 11:17:40 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far
Looks good, Mike
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
________________________________
From:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010
11:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding
so far
I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress,
so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I
have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results.
Message 41
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Subject: | Re: Composit fuel tanks |
The tank in my Aircamper is made of Safe-T-Poxy (Epolite), and was made
in 1983. I've been using autofuel for two years with no issues (no
ethanol of course).
The finger strainer did break off the bottom of the tank, but that is
because the builder just stuck it on with a little resin. A build
quality issue, rather than an issue with the material or process used.
I was twisting on the hose pretty good trying to unscrew a fitting when
it broke off. To put it back on, I had a ~4" plate welded to the
fitting that the finger strainer screws into. I then epoxied that plate
to the tank, and then put a couple of layers of glass on top. I
attached a few pictures...one shows the tank, one shows the broken off
strainer, and the third shows the new plate welded to the strainer
fitting which is now sandwiched in the bottom of my tank.
The above wouldn't have been an issue with an aluminum tank, but a
fiberglass tank might have slightly better damage resistance in a crash.
My tank is 18.3 gallons, and I didn't weigh it but I can't imagine that
it is more than 6-8lbs, if that much.
Steve Ruse
Norman, OK
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks
I don't know about the POR 15 sealer, but I used their paint
(over rust, POR) on my GTO and that was 13 years ago...still looks
great. I would think their sealer is good stuff.
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|
Hi - Hope to visit Austin this weekend on Sunday, Jan 17. I plan to fly to Lockhart
(1/2 hour south of Austin, an hour north of San Antonio). The goal is to
meet The Girl at about 1130 at the airport and get lunch. Anyone who'd like
to join us is welcome. I'll post on Sunday morning before leaving to verify
that I'm going to try it.
Best regards,
Kevin Purtee
512-422-6371
NX899KP
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281582#281582
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