---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/14/10: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:58 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Ryan Mueller) 2. 05:33 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (wildhorsesracing) 3. 05:42 AM - Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (amsafetyc@aol.com) 4. 06:02 AM - Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez) 5. 06:06 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Jack Phillips) 6. 06:25 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Craig Steffen) 7. 06:33 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Richard Schreiber) 8. 06:35 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Jim Ash) 9. 06:46 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Jeff Boatright) 10. 06:48 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE) 11. 07:42 AM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez) 12. 08:02 AM - My welding so far (Michael Perez) 13. 08:08 AM - More welding pictures (Michael Perez) 14. 08:11 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Jack Phillips) 15. 08:23 AM - Re: My welding so far (Jack Phillips) 16. 08:23 AM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (Richard Schreiber) 17. 08:24 AM - Re: My welding so far (Dan Yocum) 18. 08:25 AM - Re: More welding pictures (Dan Yocum) 19. 08:31 AM - Re: My welding so far (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 20. 08:38 AM - Re: More welding pictures (K5YAC) 21. 08:56 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Roman Bukolt) 22. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: More welding pictures (Michael Perez) 23. 09:21 AM - Re: More welding pictures (K5YAC) 24. 09:22 AM - Re: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? (Roman Bukolt) 25. 09:23 AM - Fw: Re: Composit fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE) 26. 09:52 AM - Re: My welding so far (Jack) 27. 10:30 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez) 28. 10:30 AM - Re: My welding so far (Michael Perez) 29. 12:33 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Wayne Bressler) 30. 01:34 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Silvius) 31. 01:56 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (TOM STINEMETZE) 32. 02:12 PM - Re: Fuel tank Questions (Jack Phillips) 33. 02:55 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (gliderx5@comcast.net) 34. 03:07 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Silvius) 35. 04:04 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Ameet Savant) 36. 04:53 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez) 37. 04:54 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Jeff Boatright) 38. 04:54 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Michael Perez) 39. 04:55 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (David Paule) 40. 05:38 PM - Re: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel (airlion) 41. 08:10 PM - Re: Composit fuel tanks (Steve Ruse) 42. 08:33 PM - Austin Visit (kevinpurtee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? From: Ryan Mueller Jim, I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage Piets out there off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go: There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick list of the various fuselages there are plans for: Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel 1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood Ryan On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash wrote: > > > Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of wood? > > For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f fuselage was > synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going through the supplemental > drawings to add up tubing lengths to put together a Dillsburg order, and now > I see the t&f fuselage is actually a couple inches shorter than the standard > wood. > > Jim Ash > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:10 AM PST US From: wildhorsesracing Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? I just ordered a set of plans and the front page is a complete steel diagram - the top longeron is 5/8 x .035 -jim pantas www.wildhorsesracing.com ________________________________ From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:58:11 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? Jim, I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage Piets out there off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go: There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick list of the various fuselages there are plans for: Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel 1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood Ryan On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash wrote: > > >>Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of wood? > >>For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f fuselage was synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going through the supplemental drawings to add up tubing lengths to put together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the t&f fuselage is actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood. > >>Jim Ash > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:09 AM PST US From: amsafetyc@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in the axle and how much is provided by the bungee's. Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for ? Thanks John ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:06 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass cloth and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone here have any experience with this idea? I would like to know what I need to buy to get started. I see there are a few foams to choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else to get. Thanks. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:36 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Depends on how hard you land. Seriously, I have seen about 3" of travel on my axle, but my guide pins allow for 6" Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of amsafetyc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in the axle and how much is provided by the bungee's. Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for ? Thanks John ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks From: Craig Steffen > I would like to know what I need to buy to get started. I see there are a few foams to > choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else to get. Thanks. Keep in mind that foam + epoxy technology comprises a system, just like primer+paint, so you need to make sure that everything works together. My dim memory is that traditional epoxies go with styrafoam; that's the system that Burt Rutan's designs use (styrafoam dissolves in gasoline, BTW)(can be hot-wired). Then Eurathane foams, which work with vinylester epoxies, don't dissolve in gasoline, but are toxic to cut with heat. I may have the details wrong, but my point is that make sure that foam + epoxy + coating/primer/paint technology all goes together. Craig Steffen ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:44 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Jack: What size tubes did you use for the guide pins in the axle and for the tubes on the landing gear? Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: 1/14/2010 8:11:02 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Depends on how hard you land. Seriously, I have seen about 3 of travel on my axle, but my guide pins allow for 6 Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of amsafetyc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in the axle and how much is provided by the bungee's. Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for ? Thanks John http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:52 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? What does it say about the tube diameters from station 2 to 13 and 2 to 12? The drawing I'm looking at says "1937 AIR CAMPER WITH 1960 CORVAIR ENGINE" at the top. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- From: wildhorsesracing Sent: Jan 14, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? I just ordered a set of plans and the front page is a complete steel diagram - the top longeron is 5/8 x .035 -jim pantas www.wildhorsesracing.com From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 7:58:11 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? Jim, I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage Piets out there off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go: There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick list of the various fuselages there are plans for: Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel 1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood Ryan On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash wrote: Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of wood? For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f fuselage was synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going through the supplemental drawings to add up tubing lengths to put together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the t&f fuselage is actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood. Jim Ash ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:42 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks What are the upsides and downsides to making tanks from composites versus aluminum versus galvanized steel? I'm curious what the list has to say. >In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass >cloth and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone >here have any experience with this idea? I would like to know what I >need to buy to get started. I see there are a few foams to choose >from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else to get. Thanks. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:40 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Michael: I don't have the information you need (which glass cloth - resin, etc.) here with me at the office but I will try to find it this evening. I do have a section on my build log that covers building a fiberglass tank with help from my son who does this every day at Scaled Composites. There might be some information there which would prove useful. I can tell you that using the right cloth is critical since you will have a lot of corners and curves in your tank and a lot of cloth choices are made for laying up large flat sections. These cloths do not take to compound curves well. http://www.eaa1344.com/Projects/Stinemetze/wing_center_section.htm Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS N328X >>> Michael Perez 1/14/2010 8:00 AM >>> In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass cloth and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone here have any experience with this idea? I would like to know what I need to buy to get started. I see there are a few foams to choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am not clear on what else to get. Thanks. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:25 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks I would love any help you can provide Tom. I have a very, very long time Lo ng EZ builder/pilot whom I will chat with as well. From the Bingelis book, it seems pretty straight forward, but some of the lingo. in the book does n ot jive with current lingo. used in A. Spruce. So, I am struggling with wha t to buy and how to use/apply the new products. - I won't be willing to do this until summer so I can be outside, but I would like to be ready to dive in when the time is right. - Please, for those who have some experience, continue to post. - BTW "lingo." is current and correct aviation language... ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:51 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:29 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: More welding pictures More of my welding so far. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:44 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel I don=92t remember exactly, but I think the guide pins were =BD=94 .049=94 wall and the collar they ride in was =BE=94 .035=94 wall. Really don=92t remember and the airplane is not where I can easily measure it (It=92s in Virginia, I=92m in North Carolina). Just make sure there is plenty of =93slop=94 around the guide pins so they won=92t bind if one wheel hits a pothole. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:26 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Jack: What size tubes did you use for the guide pins in the axle and for the tubes on the landing gear? Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: 1/14/2010 8:11:02 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Depends on how hard you land. Seriously, I have seen about 3=14 of travel on my axle, but my guide pins allow for 6=14 Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of amsafetyc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Actually the question is more about the flexion of the bungee cords on the axle mount, how much does the axle move on compression typically on a good landing and how much travel should it be capable of in the event of a hard landing. I am trying to get an idea as to the amount of travel needed in the axle and how much is provided by the bungee's. Simply put how much travel do I need and how much do the bungee's allow for ? Thanks John http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution <> ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:17 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far Looks good, Mike Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:53 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel Thanks Jack: That's pretty much what size I was going to use as it looked about right and I had scrap tubing around that size. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: 1/14/2010 10:13:56 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel I dont remember exactly, but I think the guide pins were .049 wall and the collar they ride in was .035 wall. Really dont remember and the airplane is not where I can easily measure it (Its in Virginia, Im in North Carolina). Just make sure there is plenty of slop around the guide pins so they wont bind if one wheel hits a pothole. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:02 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far Very nice, in my book. On 01/14/2010 10:02 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in > progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a > LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now > and am happy with the results. > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:13 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More welding pictures Well, now you're just bragging. ;-) It's been a long time since I've touched flame to steel, but all these look great to me. I'm no professional welder, so if someone else sees a problem, speak up. On 01/14/2010 10:05 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > More of my welding so far. > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:44 AM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far Mighty fine welds..... Brian SLC-UT From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:01 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More welding pictures From: "K5YAC" Yeah, no kidding. Fabulous work. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281475#281475 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:15 AM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? NX20795 is a long tube and fabric Piet. Also the tail components are tube and fabric. Roman Bukolt On Jan 13, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash wrote: > > > > Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of > wood? > > For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f > fuselage was synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going > through the supplemental drawings to add up tubing lengths to put > together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the t&f fuselage is > actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood. > > Jim Ash > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:17 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: More welding pictures To be honest, I used a lot of scrap and a lot of filler doing practice weld s long before what you see in this post! I was burning holes in steel, grou nding the electrode to the metal and filler, dropping the metal, (no clampi ng) etc. At times I thought I would never get it! - The welds were done with a Lincoln V205-T-TIG. I used ER 80S-D2 filler ro d. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:39 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More welding pictures From: "K5YAC" Holy smokes... I must have missed this part. I thought that you gassed those. [Shocked] Still real nice looking work. > speedbrake(at)sbcglobal said... > > The welds were done with a Lincoln V205-T TIG. I used ER 80S-D2 filler rod. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281486#281486 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:34 AM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Long fuselage in tube and fabric? My set of plans including the supplemental plans include a steel tube fuselage that is 14' 2" NX20795 On Jan 14, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > Jim, > > I can't speak to whether or not there are steel tube long fuselage > Piets out there off the top of my head.....but as far as the plans go: > > There are no plans for a steel tube long fuselage. Here's a quick > list of the various fuselages there are plans for: > > Flying and Glider manual 13' 5" length: Wood and steel > 1933 'Improved' approx 13' 7" length: Wood > Supplemental plans long fuselage approx 14' 5": Wood > > Ryan > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jim Ash > wrote: > > > Has anybody built a long fuselage out of tube and fabric instead of > wood? > > For some reason over the last couple years I thought the t&f > fuselage was synonymous with the long fuselage. I was just going > through the supplemental drawings to add up tubing lengths to put > together a Dillsburg order, and now I see the t&f fuselage is > actually a couple inches shorter than the standard wood. > > Jim Ash > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:11 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Fwd: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Michael: I did a little research on the Aircraft Spruce site to see what I remembered about fiberglass cloth and resin choices. Here is what I used: (Note: these are not the only acceptable choices. Listen closely to your local guru and use what he is familiar with!) Cloth - BID (or Bi-Directional) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpag es/rutan.php - My first purchase (before I asked for advice) was not bi-directional and it was MUCH HARDER to get to lay down properly. Note that Aircraft Spruce calls this a "Rutan" cloth. At Scaled Composites they use this stuff exclusively. Resin - EZ Poxy - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/ezpoxy.php - I started out with the 1 1/2 quart kit and eventually had to purchase a second kit. This stuff has to be mixed )resin -hardener) in the correct proportions by weight but this is not difficult. I used a cheap postal scale with disposable butter tubs and a small handheld calculator in a plastic sandwich bag. Just put the ratio in the calculator's memory, zero out the postal scale with the empty tub on it, pour in the how much resin you want in that batch, calculate the weight of hardener needed and add that to the weight of resin already in the tub, add hardener carefully until the tub weighs what you calculated, and then stir thoroughly (for a couple of minutes at least) with a stir stick and you're ready to go. Roving - I was able to obtain some of the Rutan S-Glass but the smaller quantity of the 3M product should do just as well. http://www.aircraftspruc e.com/menus/cm/fiberglass_strands.html - This long string of glass fiber is wetted out with resin and laid in any gaps that have to be filled. If you looked at my build site, this is what was used to fill the gaps when the four quarters of the tank were rejoined. Corner tapes - There are different fiberglass tapes available but - after the fact - it would have been much simpler to have just cut some from the BID and they would have laid down and wetted out a lot easier. Scissors - buy a cheap pair at a discount store. They will be mostly finished at the same time as your project. Resin applicators - Get the cheapest 1" to 1 1/2" paint brushes you can find and cut off the bristles to about 1/2 their length. Stir sticks - use craft sticks or popsicle sticks cut off square on one end. You will need a bunch of these. Mold release agent - there are commercial products for this but you can also use auto wax or household wax. Candle wax is too hard. Foam - We used the 1 1/2" thick blue foam that is used for house insulation . You can get this relatively cheaply at any lumber yard and it does not release toxic fumes when cut with a hot wire. Temporary barriers - good quality trash bags and wide clear boxing tape. You will want to cover your work surface with trash bags if nothing else. Both the trash bags and the tape can be coated with mold release so you can lay up directly on them but still be able to get the part off later. Hot Wire - You can make this tool pretty easily out of scraps you probably have around the shop. See my build site for a couple of ideas. You will need a rheostat to control the power. Try Radio Shack or similar. Use safety wire for the cutting wire. I tried several different wires from the hardware store and none of the others would last very long. Mixing cups - start saving up butter tubs and the like. They are also very useful for mixing T-88. ( I use the lids mostly.) When you are mixing resin/hardener you will not be able to reuse the tub. Don't make each batch larger than necessary as you have to stop when the batch starts to kick or you will end up messing up that layer and have a major sanding job before you can continue. (voice of experience) That's all I can think of at the moment. Working with fiberglass is a lot of fun, if fairly messy. Once you have built something with it you start looking for other things that you could use it for. I have plans to build a new mailbox in the shape of SpaceShipOne - if I ever get enough of the Pietenpol done to move it out of the shop. Best of luck on your project Tom Stinemetze N328X ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:31 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far Yea Michael.but are they strong? JUST KIDDING beautiful work!!!! Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 10:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:23 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Thanks Tom. The Bingelis book write up talked about laying out the cloth/epoxy over the foam flat on a table, then when dry, cut it up into the pieces need to make the tank. I don't think there is any molds required. (not clear yet.) I hope I can get in touch with the Long EZ guy...it has been a long time. I don't know how much experience he has with this method. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:58 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far I wasn't worried about strength, just aesthetics!=C2- (I building a hanga r queen...)=C2- 8^[) --- On Thu, 1/14/10, Jack wrote: From: Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far Yea Michaelbut are they strong?=C2- JUST KIDDING beautiful work! !!! Jack DSM =C2- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 10:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far =C2- I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progr ess, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time s ince I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy w ith the results. =C2- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:01 PM PST US From: Wayne Bressler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Jeff, In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank and an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in each. I remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but aluminum is unaffected by any fuel. It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel. I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm pretty sure it's covered in the Bingelis books. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com On Jan 14, 2010, at 9:45 AM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > What are the upsides and downsides to making tanks from composites > versus aluminum versus galvanized steel? I'm curious what the list > has to say. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:30 PM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Vinyl ester resin apears to be the only resin that offers resistance to the ethanol in modern autofuels. The ethanol seems to degrade epoxies and polyesters including some tank sealer/ slosh compounds. Vinyl ester is also the standard in fuel tanks for boatbuilding. It is also a bit cheaper. "vinyl ester resin is formulated for maximum corrosion resistance to most fuels, vapors, and both acidic and basic chemicals. It is also heat resistant and blended for toughness. These qualities make it perfect for repairing tank linings, blistering boat hulls, as well as fabricating tough all-around parts. Catalyze with 1.25% MEKP, Shelf Life Limited to 3 months". http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-vinyl-ester-d_785.h tml http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Vinyl_Ester_Resins http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vinylester.php Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Bressler To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Jeff, In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank and an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in each. I remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but aluminum is unaffected by any fuel. It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel. I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm pretty sure it's covered in the Bingelis books. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:21 PM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Mike: OK, now you've got me worried. My fiberglass tank was built with E-Z Poxy from Aircraft Spruce. According to the MSDS data sheet the mixture is: Glycidyl ethers of bisphenol A resins and Tri(dimethylaminomethyl)phenol What in tarnation does that mean? Is my tank going to fall apart and dump 12 gallons (more or less) on my little head? I think I will obtain some Gasohol, fill up the tank, and let it sit in a nice quiet place for a couple of months and see how it is doing. I've got plenty of other things I can be working on. Tom Stinemetze N328X >>> "Michael Silvius" 1/14/2010 3:29 PM >>> Vinyl ester resin apears to be the only resin that offers resistance to the ethanol in modern autofuels. The ethanol seems to degrade epoxies and polyesters including some tank sealer/ slosh compounds. Vinyl ester is also the standard in fuel tanks for boatbuilding. It is also a bit cheaper. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:43 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank Questions Carson, I did much the same thing, although I put a fuel pickup in every corner of the tank so I could never be starved for fuel. Good thing is, I've only got about a tablespoon of unusable fuel in the tank. Bad thing is routing the fuel system is a bear, bringing fuel from 4 different pickups to one shutoff valve, and then forward to the engine. I use a vented cap and have never had any problems at all with the fuel system. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of carson Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:18 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank Questions Hi All I have just spent 2 hrs looking for the answers when I should have been out in the shed building so I will ask now go to the shed build and await your replies. I am planning on building an aluminum tank with the bottom the same camber as the bottom of the wing with an outlet in the front right and rear right,Could there be any problems with this? Has anyone else done the same? Also if one of the pickups was to become starved of fuel would this make an air bubble in the system? If yes is that what a header tank is for to resolve the air bubble problem? Or a better question what is the header tank for? All suggestions appreciated Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281396#281396 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:04 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks I just finished the fuel tank for my Piet with the widened center section. I used 1/4 inch lastofoam sheet, sandwiched with 2 layers of 6 oz cloth and vinylester resin. Sheets were cut to shape and assembled into the tank using cloth, flox, and resin at the seams. This resin is supposed to hold up to ethenol. The tank holds 18 gallons and weighs 16 lbs empty including the fuel level sender and cap. Its very strong but seems too heavy. I went with outlets at opposite corners and a raised diagnol ridge on the bottom to drain to the outlets. I would probably look at using aluminum next time. I think it would be lighter. The vinylester resin really stinks, and has a short shelf life. The first gallon gelled before I ever got around to opening it. Malcolm Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Perez" Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:00:59 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:59 PM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Tom: I am not sure if you need to panic just yet. The Long EZ crowd seems to have had the most reported issues swith ethanol so you may want to take a look at this thread: http://forum.canardaviation.com/showthread.php?t=4594 "This is just an on-going experiment, and we all learn from each step. Chris was good enough to test Jeffco - it lasted less than a year. I tested naked MGS - it lasted about 6 years. Perry Mick tested EZ-Poxy, and is still going strong. So far it looks like Perry was closest to a workable solution. My next test is EZPoxy with a Proseal liner. Of course, one example does not prove much in any of these tests. The experiment continues...." I have heard good things about the POR 15 tank sealers so it may be worth loking in to as a solution. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: TOM STINEMETZE Mike: OK, now you've got me worried. My fiberglass tank was built with E-Z Poxy from Aircraft Spruce. According to the MSDS data sheet the mixture is: Glycidyl ethers of bisphenol A resins and Tri(dimethylaminomethyl)phenol What in tarnation does that mean? Is my tank going to fall apart and dump 12 gallons (more or less) on my little head? I think I will obtain some Gasohol, fill up the tank, and let it sit in a nice quiet place for a couple of months and see how it is doing. I've got plenty of other things I can be working on. Tom Stinemetze N328X ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks From: Ameet Savant Michael, This topic has been discussed a lot of other forums. My understanding is that Urathane foam, any glass(S or E) and vinlyester resin is the winning combination. Ameet On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > In the Bingelis books he covers making fuel tanks with foam, glass cloth > and epoxy. I plan on making my tank in this matter. Anyone here have any > experience with this idea? I would like to know what I need to buy to get > started. I see there are a few foams to choose from ( A. Spruce) and I am > not clear on what else to get. Thanks. > > * > * > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:32 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks I don't know about the POR 15 sealer, but I used their paint (over rust, POR) on my GTO and that was 13 years ago...still looks great. I would think their sealer is good stuff. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:50 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Wayne, Thanks one concern I have is that, very sadly, Tony is no longer with us so he can't update based on the new fuel formulations out there. Avgas is still the same (but maybe not forever), but gasoline sure is different than when Tony wrote. Jeff >Jeff, > >In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of >construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank >and an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in >each. I remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but >aluminum is unaffected by any fuel. > >It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd >shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel. > >I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm >pretty sure it's covered in the Bingelis books. > >Wayne Bressler Jr. >Taildraggers, Inc. >taildraggersinc.com > >On Jan 14, 2010, at 9:45 AM, Jeff Boatright ><jboatri@emory.edu> wrote: > >>What are the upsides and downsides to making tanks from composites >>versus aluminum versus galvanized steel? I'm curious what the list >>has to say. >> -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:56 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks That is excellent info Malcolm. That sounds like the way Bingelis did it and the way I was thinking. I get over the weight! I thought, being mostly foam, it would weigh next to nothing! Maybe not. More searching. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:09 PM PST US From: "David Paule" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks In boats, glass fuel tanks have proven troublesome. They might have been polester, but the literature isn't specific about it. It might be a good idea to avoid fiberglass for fuel tanks. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Silvius To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Vinyl ester resin apears to be the only resin that offers resistance to the ethanol in modern autofuels. The ethanol seems to degrade epoxies and polyesters including some tank sealer/ slosh compounds. Vinyl ester is also the standard in fuel tanks for boatbuilding. It is also a bit cheaper. "vinyl ester resin is formulated for maximum corrosion resistance to most fuels, vapors, and both acidic and basic chemicals. It is also heat resistant and blended for toughness. These qualities make it perfect for repairing tank linings, blistering boat hulls, as well as fabricating tough all-around parts. Catalyze with 1.25% MEKP, Shelf Life Limited to 3 months". http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-vinyl-ester-d_785.h tml http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Vinyl_Ester_Resins http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vinylester.php Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Bressler To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks Jeff, In my inexperienced opinion, besides the different methods of construction, the primary differences between a composite fuel tank and an aluminum tank would be what kind of fuels you can use in each. I remember reading that some fuels dissolve some epoxies, but aluminum is unaffected by any fuel. It would probably be easier to fit a fiberglass tank into an odd shape, but you may lose the ability to use different types if fuel. I'm sure someone else knows more about this than I do, and I'm pretty sure it's covered in the Bingelis books. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:18 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wooden landing gear question G forces on bungees & amount of travel ________________________________ From: Jack Phillips Sent: Thu, January 14, 2010 11:17:40 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far Looks good, Mike Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ________________________________ From:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My welding so far I know how you guys, myself included, like to see pictures of work in progress, so here are a few of my welding jobs so far. It has been a LONG time since I have done any and I am actually enjoying doing it now and am happy with the results. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:26 PM PST US From: "Steve Ruse" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks The tank in my Aircamper is made of Safe-T-Poxy (Epolite), and was made in 1983. I've been using autofuel for two years with no issues (no ethanol of course). The finger strainer did break off the bottom of the tank, but that is because the builder just stuck it on with a little resin. A build quality issue, rather than an issue with the material or process used. I was twisting on the hose pretty good trying to unscrew a fitting when it broke off. To put it back on, I had a ~4" plate welded to the fitting that the finger strainer screws into. I then epoxied that plate to the tank, and then put a couple of layers of glass on top. I attached a few pictures...one shows the tank, one shows the broken off strainer, and the third shows the new plate welded to the strainer fitting which is now sandwiched in the bottom of my tank. The above wouldn't have been an issue with an aluminum tank, but a fiberglass tank might have slightly better damage resistance in a crash. My tank is 18.3 gallons, and I didn't weigh it but I can't imagine that it is more than 6-8lbs, if that much. Steve Ruse Norman, OK ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Composit fuel tanks I don't know about the POR 15 sealer, but I used their paint (over rust, POR) on my GTO and that was 13 years ago...still looks great. I would think their sealer is good stuff. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Austin Visit From: "kevinpurtee" Hi - Hope to visit Austin this weekend on Sunday, Jan 17. I plan to fly to Lockhart (1/2 hour south of Austin, an hour north of San Antonio). The goal is to meet The Girl at about 1130 at the airport and get lunch. Anyone who'd like to join us is welcome. I'll post on Sunday morning before leaving to verify that I'm going to try it. Best regards, Kevin Purtee 512-422-6371 NX899KP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281582#281582 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.