Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Thu 02/04/10


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 10:42 AM - O-200 ENGINE (Dick N)
     2. 02:12 PM - Re: O-200 ENGINE (Jack)
     3. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! (Mark Roberts)
     4. 07:58 PM - Re: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! (Mark Roberts)
     5. 08:06 PM - Re: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! (Mark Roberts)
     6. 08:09 PM - paperwork display (Douwe Blumberg)
     7. 09:40 PM - Re: paperwork display (Ben Charvet)
     8. 09:44 PM - Re: paperwork display (Ryan Mueller)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 10:42:41 AM PST US
    From: "Dick N" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: O-200 ENGINE
    Col]uld the person who was looking for an O-200 engine last week send my an e mail. Or if anyone else is interested send me an e mail also. I have 1 with about 350 hrs on it. Dick N. horzpool@goldengate.net


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:12:25 PM PST US
    From: Jack <jack@textors.com>
    Subject: Re: O-200 ENGINE
    That's me Dick Sent from my iPhone On Feb 4, 2010, at 12:42 PM, "Dick N" <horzpool@goldengate.net> wrote: > Col]uld the person who was looking for an O-200 engine last week > send my an e mail. Or if anyone else is interested send me an e > mail also. I have 1 with about 350 hrs on it. > Dick N. > horzpool@goldengate.net > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:00:23 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: My new 613.5 airfoil jig!
    From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
    Hey Dave! I am re-working the rib and making a 612 rib as well. I will let you guys know if the progress as I make it. It seems a few of ya'll like the 612 so here I go!... Mark PS Thanks for the feed back! On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 8:07 AM, dgaldrich <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com> wrote: > dgaldrich@embarqmail.com> > > I already have the pile of 1/2 x 1/4 sticks and would love to have a jig. > I had planned on using a 612 airfoil but would be amenable to the 613.5. > > Under that assumption that the Riblett airfoils are not protected by > copyright/patent laws. I would think that a properly written release prior > to sale would protect you from legal liabilities, especially in the > experimental world. > > If you do get involved in the Type Certified biz, don't forget that > Chief's/Champs also used wood ribs. Good luck in any event. > > Dave Aldrich > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=284598#284598 > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:58:38 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: My new 613.5 airfoil jig!
    From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
    Thanks Dave. Good analysis. I think I'll just go for it and see what happens. I will make the jogs first and see later about making wing kits... Thanks again! Mark On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:42 PM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote: > I'm not an attorney, but here goes anyway: > > More than likely, you'll find that while it might be entirely possible to > fight off a lawsuit, you have no way to prevent someone from filing one in > the first place. And fighting one off will not be cheap. But the probability > of being sued is low. > > If you make the wood parts to match someone else's design, that adds a > layer to your possible defense. If you design the parts too, then that adds > to your potential liability. > > It might be worth seeking business liability insurance, so that in the > unlikely event you do get sued, you've got some deep pockets on your side. > > Other than that, get the business started. Fear of failure prevented more > good ideas from being realized than actual negligence. > > Now these are merely my own suggestions, and as I mentioned, I'm > unqualified to give legal advice, and besides that, this is FREE, so you > know what it's worth. But I've started and run two companies successfully. > One was an aerospace structural analysis consultancy (where I never even > bothered with the insurance), the other was in real estate management (where > I do carry insurance). > > David Paule > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com> > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2010 3:12 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! > > Thanks Dan. You are right about that data base, as I have downloaded the > entire database a couple of times. I did click on your link and it appears > to be broken. I will see if I can locate a more current link and post it for > all. > > I am wondering if there is anyone out there that can advise me where I can > find info on the legal issues associated with selling cut parts for the > ribs. I am thinking that if the wood is cut to size and inspected by the > builder AND an FAA examiner, would that be enough for simply selling the > wood cut to the specific dimensions? Aircraft Spruce sells it in cut > dimensions, just not specifically to the size and shape of the individual > components like a large model airplane kit.... > > I'm not even sure what kind of attorney I'd look for to advise on this... > > Thanks for any direction guys! > > Mark > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov> wrote: > >> >> Mark, >> >> Tons of airfoil lofting coordinates can be found here: >> >> http://www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html+airfoil+lofting >> >> The Cub uses a USA35B, if I recall correctly. It's in that database, too. >> >> These are loftings, only. The don't have inter-strut or spar locations, >> so it might be best to find a real Cub or Pacer rib and get measurements off >> that. >> >> Cheers, >> Dan >> >> >> >> On 01/31/2010 11:51 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: >> >>> Thanks Gary! Glad to know I was missed :o) >>> >>> Hey Chet! >>> >>> I don't yet have a Cub jig, but I plan to make a few airfoils and I need >>> folks like you to suggest and help me find the right airfoils, etc. You >>> can call me and we can chat off line if you'd like: 559-917-5904. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Chet Hartley <chethartley1@mchsi.com >>> <mailto:chethartley1@mchsi.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Mark, >>> I would be interested in the 613.5 wing jig. >>> Do you have plans for a Cub jig as well? >>> Chet Hartley >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Mark Roberts <mailto:mark.rbrts1@gmail.com> >>> *To:* pietenpol-list <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 30, 2010 11:45 PM >>> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! >>> >>> OK, after sitting on the side lines from a job loss in >>> September, I have made a stab at resuming my Piet build. Since I >>> am getting no calls from the recruiters and job boards, I >>> decided to team up with a friend and start a wooden sign >>> business here in Clovis out of his Dad's specialty wood shop. >>> I'll spare ya the story about how all of this came about, but it >>> is a good match, and get this: I work in a shop that owns a >>> professional CNC router. In fact, the Dad (Al) told Jason and I >>> that we had full reign over the router, and he wanted us to run >>> it full time to make money. See Jason was laid off too, so we >>> both were 'available' to start a new business.... >>> >>> BUT, I thought what a great way to make professional wing jigs >>> and wing kits for various planes. I am not sure of the >>> legalities involved, but I knew I needed a good Riblett 613.5 >>> wing jig, so I took my previous CAD drawings and brought them >>> into the software we use (EnRoute 4) and presto! A new peg jig >>> perfectly following the coordinates... >>> >>> Then I thought about cutting all of the little sticks to size >>> with the CNC to make the rib gussets and such. I drew them into >>> the program and ran it today at the shop and got press-to-fit >>> perfect parts! It is something to see a part fit into place with >>> almost a snap! And it just takes a few minutes to cut the parts >>> for one rib! >>> >>> Building still out of poplar, and I did already have the top and >>> bottom cap strips done, and I still need to cut the new >>> pre-bending jig yet, but when I finished snapping the parts in >>> (not too tight, and not too loose... J'est right for some epoxy >>> :o) place I was very excited. >>> >>> I know there are a few of you guys looking at the 613.5 airfoil >>> and I am looking into the legalities of making a few kits for >>> those that might want a jig, a pre-bending jig, and the cap >>> strip and cut pieces that will save ya from having to cut all of >>> those little parts (sticks and 1/16" ply gussets) for this wing. >>> >>> What was a real trip about this wood shop was when I first went >>> in there and found out he had specialty wood (stuff I'd never >>> heard of before) and asked if he carried Sitka Spruce, he >>> pointed to a bin and said "There sits some certified Sitka Spar >>> stock".... and what about some aircraft ply for my gussets? >>> "Right there in that stack..." >>> >>> So, instead of looking for another job, I created one for >>> myself. Unfortunately, there's no pay check (yet) but I'm having >>> fun! :o) >>> >>> Here's some pics of the finished rib ready to glue and trim the >>> Leading Edge... If anyone has an interest in a potential kit or >>> two, I can work up some numbers once I find out what legal stuff >>> I must do... >>> >>> Just an update. Hope to begin posting again as I make progress! >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> tp://forums.matronics.com >>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >> >> -- >> Dan Yocum >> Fermilab 630.840.6509 >> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov >> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:06:10 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: My new 613.5 airfoil jig!
    From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>
    Hey Guys! I really appreciate all of the advice. I really haven't tried this kinda thing before, and as always, fear of the unknown is greater than the actual monster in the closet. However, I covet the advice on this list, as the contributors are some of the nicest folks I have cooresponded with. Thanks again fellers (and fellas)! Mark On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks Dave. > > Good analysis. I think I'll just go for it and see what happens. I will > make the jogs first and see later about making wing kits... > > Thanks again! > > Mark > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:42 PM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote: > >> I'm not an attorney, but here goes anyway: >> >> More than likely, you'll find that while it might be entirely possible to >> fight off a lawsuit, you have no way to prevent someone from filing one in >> the first place. And fighting one off will not be cheap. But the probability >> of being sued is low. >> >> If you make the wood parts to match someone else's design, that adds a >> layer to your possible defense. If you design the parts too, then that adds >> to your potential liability. >> >> It might be worth seeking business liability insurance, so that in the >> unlikely event you do get sued, you've got some deep pockets on your side. >> >> Other than that, get the business started. Fear of failure prevented more >> good ideas from being realized than actual negligence. >> >> Now these are merely my own suggestions, and as I mentioned, I'm >> unqualified to give legal advice, and besides that, this is FREE, so you >> know what it's worth. But I've started and run two companies successfully. >> One was an aerospace structural analysis consultancy (where I never even >> bothered with the insurance), the other was in real estate management (where >> I do carry insurance). >> >> David Paule >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com> >> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2010 3:12 PM >> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! >> >> Thanks Dan. You are right about that data base, as I have downloaded the >> entire database a couple of times. I did click on your link and it appears >> to be broken. I will see if I can locate a more current link and post it for >> all. >> >> I am wondering if there is anyone out there that can advise me where I can >> find info on the legal issues associated with selling cut parts for the >> ribs. I am thinking that if the wood is cut to size and inspected by the >> builder AND an FAA examiner, would that be enough for simply selling the >> wood cut to the specific dimensions? Aircraft Spruce sells it in cut >> dimensions, just not specifically to the size and shape of the individual >> components like a large model airplane kit.... >> >> I'm not even sure what kind of attorney I'd look for to advise on this... >> >> Thanks for any direction guys! >> >> Mark >> >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov> wrote: >> >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> Tons of airfoil lofting coordinates can be found here: >>> >>> >>> http://www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html+airfoil+lofting >>> >>> The Cub uses a USA35B, if I recall correctly. It's in that database, >>> too. >>> >>> These are loftings, only. The don't have inter-strut or spar locations, >>> so it might be best to find a real Cub or Pacer rib and get measurements off >>> that. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> On 01/31/2010 11:51 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Gary! Glad to know I was missed :o) >>>> >>>> Hey Chet! >>>> >>>> I don't yet have a Cub jig, but I plan to make a few airfoils and I need >>>> folks like you to suggest and help me find the right airfoils, etc. You >>>> can call me and we can chat off line if you'd like: 559-917-5904. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Chet Hartley <chethartley1@mchsi.com >>>> <mailto:chethartley1@mchsi.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> I would be interested in the 613.5 wing jig. >>>> Do you have plans for a Cub jig as well? >>>> Chet Hartley >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* Mark Roberts <mailto:mark.rbrts1@gmail.com> >>>> *To:* pietenpol-list <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 30, 2010 11:45 PM >>>> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: My new 613.5 airfoil jig! >>>> >>>> OK, after sitting on the side lines from a job loss in >>>> September, I have made a stab at resuming my Piet build. Since I >>>> am getting no calls from the recruiters and job boards, I >>>> decided to team up with a friend and start a wooden sign >>>> business here in Clovis out of his Dad's specialty wood shop. >>>> I'll spare ya the story about how all of this came about, but it >>>> is a good match, and get this: I work in a shop that owns a >>>> professional CNC router. In fact, the Dad (Al) told Jason and I >>>> that we had full reign over the router, and he wanted us to run >>>> it full time to make money. See Jason was laid off too, so we >>>> both were 'available' to start a new business.... >>>> >>>> BUT, I thought what a great way to make professional wing jigs >>>> and wing kits for various planes. I am not sure of the >>>> legalities involved, but I knew I needed a good Riblett 613.5 >>>> wing jig, so I took my previous CAD drawings and brought them >>>> into the software we use (EnRoute 4) and presto! A new peg jig >>>> perfectly following the coordinates... >>>> >>>> Then I thought about cutting all of the little sticks to size >>>> with the CNC to make the rib gussets and such. I drew them into >>>> the program and ran it today at the shop and got press-to-fit >>>> perfect parts! It is something to see a part fit into place with >>>> almost a snap! And it just takes a few minutes to cut the parts >>>> for one rib! >>>> >>>> Building still out of poplar, and I did already have the top and >>>> bottom cap strips done, and I still need to cut the new >>>> pre-bending jig yet, but when I finished snapping the parts in >>>> (not too tight, and not too loose... J'est right for some epoxy >>>> :o) place I was very excited. >>>> >>>> I know there are a few of you guys looking at the 613.5 airfoil >>>> and I am looking into the legalities of making a few kits for >>>> those that might want a jig, a pre-bending jig, and the cap >>>> strip and cut pieces that will save ya from having to cut all of >>>> those little parts (sticks and 1/16" ply gussets) for this wing. >>>> >>>> What was a real trip about this wood shop was when I first went >>>> in there and found out he had specialty wood (stuff I'd never >>>> heard of before) and asked if he carried Sitka Spruce, he >>>> pointed to a bin and said "There sits some certified Sitka Spar >>>> stock".... and what about some aircraft ply for my gussets? >>>> "Right there in that stack..." >>>> >>>> So, instead of looking for another job, I created one for >>>> myself. Unfortunately, there's no pay check (yet) but I'm having >>>> fun! :o) >>>> >>>> Here's some pics of the finished rib ready to glue and trim the >>>> Leading Edge... If anyone has an interest in a potential kit or >>>> two, I can work up some numbers once I find out what legal stuff >>>> I must do... >>>> >>>> Just an update. Hope to begin posting again as I make progress! >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>>> tp://forums.matronics.com >>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dan Yocum >>> Fermilab 630.840.6509 >>> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov >>> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." >>> >>> ========== >>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ========== >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> le, List Admin. >>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ========== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:09:47 PM PST US
    From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
    Subject: paperwork display
    Hey, I need to figure out a way to have my paperwork (airworthiness cert) displayed correctly. Sounds like it needs to be in the front pit so "passengers and crew" and see it. How have you guys flying addressed this? Thanks D (guess I only thought I had installed the last piece!!)


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:40:36 PM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: paperwork display
    Right now I have mine displayed in the Pilots pit, but then my inspection isn't until next Friday. I spoke to the FAA inspector on the phone 3 times yesterday, and the way he describes the inspection, he goes around the plane showing things he'd like corrected, then moves on giving you time to fix the little things like too short/long bolts, etc. If he wants I can move the cert holder. One really cool question he asked on the phone was if I was going to apply for a repairman's certificate. I replied yes, and he said he would bring all the paperwork so we can get that taken care of at the same time! Even give me a temporary certificate before he leaves. I guess all that depends on the rest of the inspection going well. I spent this morning putting all the inspection covers back on, because I'm going to taxi over to our EAA chapter pancake breakfast on Saturday to show it off a little. I haven't taken any pictures of it fully assembled and complete, but I'll post some as soon as I do. Good Luck Douwe Ben On 2/4/2010 11:11 PM, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Douwe Blumberg"<douweblumberg@earthlink.net> > > Hey, > > I need to figure out a way to have my paperwork (airworthiness cert) > displayed correctly. Sounds like it needs to be in the front pit so > "passengers and crew" and see it. How have you guys flying addressed this? > > Thanks > > D > > (guess I only thought I had installed the last piece!!) > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:44:27 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: paperwork display
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Douwe, As far as displaying your paperwork so "passengers and crew" can see it.......technically the FAR says "passengers OR crew", so the rear cockpit would ensure compliance; even if solo you as the 'crew' can see it. I browsed around WestCoastPiet.com (as always, thanks Chris!) a bit, and here is a selection of pics of various A/W cert placements that I found: N13691: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Ted%20Davis/IMG_2233.JPG Frank Pavliga: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Frank%20Pavliga/Brodhead__20070720_117.JPG Don Emch: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/DSCN0684.jpg Dick Navratil: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Dick%20Navratil/DSCF0124.JPG Roman Bukolt: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Roman%20Bukolt/Brodhead__20070720_178.JPG Kurt Shipman: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Kurt%20Shipman/P1010096.JPG They're all rear cockpit....for what that's worth. :P Have a good evening, Ryan (P.S.: Congrats on coming to the conclusion of your building journey. We hope you have a safe first flight!) On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net > wrote: > douweblumberg@earthlink.net> > > Hey, > > I need to figure out a way to have my paperwork (airworthiness cert) > displayed correctly. Sounds like it needs to be in the front pit so > "passengers and crew" and see it. How have you guys flying addressed this? > > Thanks > > D > > (guess I only thought I had installed the last piece!!) > >




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