---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/06/10: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:03 AM - paperwork display (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 10:26 AM - Turtle Deck (Jack) 3. 10:43 AM - Re: Turtle Deck (Gary Boothe) 4. 12:56 PM - Re: Turtle Deck (Michael Perez) 5. 01:02 PM - Elevator horn twist (Michael Perez) 6. 01:43 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (gcardinal) 7. 01:43 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Jeff Boatright) 8. 02:44 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Gene Rambo) 9. 03:00 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Pieti Lowell) 10. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Elevator horn twist (Gene Rambo) 11. 03:25 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Jeff Boatright) 12. 03:54 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (helspersew@aol.com) 13. 04:02 PM - Elevator horn twist (helspersew@aol.com) 14. 04:58 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Gene Rambo) 15. 05:15 PM - Re: Turtle Deck (Jack) 16. 05:19 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Jack) 17. 05:25 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Jack) 18. 05:26 PM - straight axle hub info (Richard Schreiber) 19. 05:53 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (helspersew@aol.com) 20. 07:30 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Peter W Johnson) 21. 07:40 PM - Re: Elevator horn twist (Dan Yocum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:53 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: paperwork display Lowell wrote: >Oscar, Do you fly with the cables loose? >Do I see the turn buckle with a slight sag, >or is some one hanging on a control surface? >Maybe camera distortion. No. Yes. No. No. Your eyes do not deceive. I should have explained that the picture was taken after the nose-over incident. At the time of the photo, the forward cabanes were crumpled, which relieved the tension on the brace wires and control cables, thus the slack. The face of the oil pressure gauge was cracked, the ignition key was broken off in the switch (Charlie's forehead paid the price for that), there was blood on the underside of the flop and wing centersection from where Charlie's forehead dripped as he hung upside-down in the cockpit, till he unbuckled the harness; the pilot's and passenger's seats were broken, and lots of other things were all ahoo. The airplane looks MUCH nicer now, I can assure you! Good observation, though. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:23 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Happy Saturday All, Where the stringers come together at the rear of the deck, the "height" needs to be trimmed for the outside stringers. Is it easier to pre-trim the bottom to fit or have them secured full height then planed to the correct size? Thanks Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:17 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Jack, I pre-trimmed the bottoms. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (16 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:20 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Happy Saturday All, Where the stringers come together at the rear of the deck, the "height" needs to be trimmed for the outside stringers. Is it easier to pre-trim the bottom to fit or have them secured full height then planed to the correct size? Thanks Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:27 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Ditto Gary's response...trim the BOTTOMS prior to install. --- On Sat, 2/6/10, Gary Boothe wrote: From: Gary Boothe Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Jack, =C2- I pre-trimmed the bottoms. =C2- Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done,=C2-Fuselage=C2-on gear (16 ribs down) From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:20 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck =C2- Happy Saturday All, Where the stringers come together at the rear of the deck, the =9Chei ght=9D needs to be trimmed for the outside stringers.=C2- Is it eas ier to pre-trim the bottom to fit or have them secured full height then pla ned to the correct size? Thanks Jack DSM =C2- =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp:/ /forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:14 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I see in the plans that the elevator horns are installed at an angle to be more in line with the cables. Did you guys just line up your horns to be in line with the cables, or install the horns straight, (in line with the fus elage or horiz. stab.) and twist the tips?- It appears when I line mine u p with the cables that the horn is at quite the angle...not sure if this wo uld have an effect on the air flow over the elevators.- Only twisting the tips, seems to me, the cables would put a side load on the horns.- Thank you. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:16 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist On NX18235 the elevator horns are angled to be in line with the cables. The rudder horn is twisted just at the tips. Flies just fine. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 2:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I see in the plans that the elevator horns are installed at an angle to be more in line with the cables. Did you guys just line up your horns to be in line with the cables, or install the horns straight, (in line with the fuselage or horiz. stab.) and twist the tips? It appears when I line mine up with the cables that the horn is at quite the angle...not sure if this would have an effect on the air flow over the elevators. Only twisting the tips, seems to me, the cables would put a side load on the horns. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:16 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist The horns on our Piet are split evenly between the two approaches. I have no idea why. The plane has several hundred hours on it, I don't think it matters... >I see in the plans that the elevator horns are installed at an angle >to be more in line with the cables. Did you guys just line up your >horns to be in line with the cables, or install the horns straight, >(in line with the fuselage or horiz. stab.) and twist the tips? It >appears when I line mine up with the cables that the horn is at >quite the angle...not sure if this would have an effect on the air >flow over the elevators. Only twisting the tips, seems to me, the >cables would put a side load on the horns. Thank you. > > -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:00 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I have been wrestling with this myself. I have 1/8" flat steel horns, not streamlined per plans. I put them on straight because I could not see having that flat plate out there at an angle. (like I am really going to reduce the drag of a Piet) Also, if it lines up with the cables, say at neutral, it won't line up at any other angle because the geometry changes as the elevator moves up and down (although not much). I had a friend who is an engineer (I know, this is not like me to engineer anything) do the math, and the side load on the horn is not very high at all, certainly not enough to bend 4130. Now I am just obsessing with looks. The horns are installed, I am just thinking whether to replace them with plans-built horns before it is too late. Does anyone else have flat steel horns that are straight?? Photos?? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 3:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I see in the plans that the elevator horns are installed at an angle to be more in line with the cables. Did you guys just line up your horns to be in line with the cables, or install the horns straight, (in line with the fuselage or horiz. stab.) and twist the tips? It appears when I line mine up with the cables that the horn is at quite the angle...not sure if this would have an effect on the air flow over the elevators. Only twisting the tips, seems to me, the cables would put a side load on the horns. Thank you. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator horn twist From: "Pieti Lowell" [ Gene, clamp a similar flat plate in a vice, pull 35 Lbs with a short cable, check for deflection and satisfy your sarofsify. Pieti Lowell ] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285115#285115 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:17 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator horn twist I am not worried at all about the side forces. I am only thinking about appearances right now. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pieti Lowell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator horn twist > [ Gene, clamp a similar flat plate in a vice, pull 35 Lbs with a short cable, check for deflection and satisfy your sarofsify. Pieti Lowell ] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285115#285115 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:38 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I agree with Lowell, you could just test it in a vice. But, have you considered twisting the tip so that the pin wears on the flat of the horn hole radius, rather than the edge? If I was going to worry about anything, I would worry about the pin getting cut into by the 4130 radius edge. Which will be harder: 4130 or the pin? Probably the pin, so even THIS consideration isn't much of a concern...Just something to check at annual. >I have been wrestling with this myself. I have 1/8" flat steel >horns, not streamlined per plans. I put them on straight because I >could not see having that flat plate out there at an angle. (like I >am really going to reduce the drag of a Piet) Also, if it lines up >with the cables, say at neutral, it won't line up at any other angle >because the geometry changes as the elevator moves up and down >(although not much). I had a friend who is an engineer (I know, >this is not like me to engineer anything) do the math, and the side >load on the horn is not very high at all, certainly not enough to >bend 4130. > >Now I am just obsessing with looks. The horns are installed, I am >just thinking whether to replace them with plans-built horns before >it is too late. > >Does anyone else have flat steel horns that are straight?? Photos?? > >Gene -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist From: helspersew@aol.com Michael, I installed mine at an angle. You might have a point about just twisting the tips so you don't lose any speed. Doing so would probably add at leas t 10-15 kts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:58 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist From: helspersew@aol.com Gene, My advise to you is change those horns and build to plans. I have gone thr ough this "wrestling" process (as you describe) with many things on this airplane. I always go back and change it to my gut feeling. If you don't you will always regret it. Besides, those control horns are one of the mo st eloquent design features on this airplane. Right? Making those horns to plans was one of the most rewarding parts of the construction process. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:41 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Dan, "darn you to heck!!" THAT is what I didn't want to hear! Of course, that is what I thought, I have gone to great extremes for the appearance of this plane, ai just don't want to ruin it now. I WAS ready to cover the tail and fuselage, but noooooooooo, now I gotta build horns. Darn you, darn you to heck (to paraphrase Mr. Heston) Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Gene, My advise to you is change those horns and build to plans. I have gone through this "wrestling" process (as you describe) with many things on this airplane. I always go back and change it to my gut feeling. If you don't you will always regret it. Besides, those control horns are one of the most eloquent design features on this airplane. Right? Making those horns to plans was one of the most rewarding parts of the construction process. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:49 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Thanks for the comments. What a great day, spent nine hours with my mistress! Got all the stringers fit and the front two bridges finished. A good day, thanks Bernard, Jack DSM Do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:24 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Gene, Go for it! I did the same with a partially built fuselage I purchased. I just wasn't happy with it. My gut was right, glad I'm re-doing. Jack DSM Do not archive Dan, "darn you to heck!!" THAT is what I didn't want to hear! Of course, that is what I thought, I have gone to great extremes for the appearance of this plane, ai just don't want to ruin it now. I WAS ready to cover the tail and fuselage, but noooooooooo, now I gotta build horns. Darn you, darn you to heck (to paraphrase Mr. Heston) Gene Gene, My advise to you is change those horns and build to plans. I have gone through this "wrestling" process (as you describe) with many things on this airplane. I always go back and change it to my gut feeling. If you don't you will always regret it. Besides, those control horns are one of the most eloquent design features on this airplane. Right? Making those horns to plans was one of the most rewarding parts of the construction process. Dan Helsper ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:56 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Gene, I forgot to include a picture. Do not archive Jack Textor 29 SW 58th Drive Des Moines, IA 50312 www.textors.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Dan, "darn you to heck!!" THAT is what I didn't want to hear! Of course, that is what I thought, I have gone to great extremes for the appearance of this plane, ai just don't want to ruin it now. I WAS ready to cover the tail and fuselage, but noooooooooo, now I gotta build horns. Darn you, darn you to heck (to paraphrase Mr. Heston) Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Gene, My advise to you is change those horns and build to plans. I have gone through this "wrestling" process (as you describe) with many things on this airplane. I always go back and change it to my gut feeling. If you don't you will always regret it. Besides, those control horns are one of the most eloquent design features on this airplane. Right? Making those horns to plans was one of the most rewarding parts of the construction process. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:08 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight axle hub info Fellow Pieters: for those that have made the straight axle gear using the Henderson/Pavliga/Perkins style hubs, what size holes did you drill in the hubs for your spokes. I realize it is spoke size dependent, but my plans are to go with 9 ga. spokes from Buchanan's. I want to make sure that the hubs that I send to them are drilled correctly. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist From: helspersew@aol.com Gene, Sorry, don't kill the mesenger! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Dan, "darn you to heck!!" THAT is what I didn't want to hear! Of course, that is what I thought, I have gone to great extremes for the appearance of this plane, ai just don't want to ruin it now. I WAS ready to cover the tail and fuselage, but noooooooooo, now I gotta build horns. Darn you, darn you to heck (to paraphrase Mr. Heston) Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Gene, My advise to you is change those horns and build to plans. I have gone thr ough this "wrestling" process (as you describe) with many things on this airplane. I always go back and change it to my gut feeling. If you don't you will always regret it. Besides, those control horns are one of the mo st eloquent design features on this airplane. Right? Making those horns to plans was one of the most rewarding parts of the construction process. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://w ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?Pietenpol-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:18 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist Gene, I made mine out of flat 4130 sheet. The looked fine to me. Have a look down the bottom of page 11 on the web site (http://www.cpc-world.com). I angled them slightly toward the cable exit in the fuse. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, 7 February 2010 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I have been wrestling with this myself. I have 1/8" flat steel horns, not streamlined per plans. I put them on straight because I could not see having that flat plate out there at an angle. (like I am really going to reduce the drag of a Piet) Also, if it lines up with the cables, say at neutral, it won't line up at any other angle because the geometry changes as the elevator moves up and down (although not much). I had a friend who is an engineer (I know, this is not like me to engineer anything) do the math, and the side load on the horn is not very high at all, certainly not enough to bend 4130. Now I am just obsessing with looks. The horns are installed, I am just thinking whether to replace them with plans-built horns before it is too late. Does anyone else have flat steel horns that are straight?? Photos?? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 3:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist I see in the plans that the elevator horns are installed at an angle to be more in line with the cables. Did you guys just line up your horns to be in line with the cables, or install the horns straight, (in line with the fuselage or horiz. stab.) and twist the tips? It appears when I line mine up with the cables that the horn is at quite the angle...not sure if this would have an effect on the air flow over the elevators. Only twisting the tips, seems to me, the cables would put a side load on the horns. Thank you. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:48 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist N8031 has flat horns, with a short, 3/8" or so, section bent at a 90 degree angle for stiffening strength. They work, but they're not what the plans call for. Sorry, I don't have any pictures of these. It's kinda up to you... sounds like you're going to go the per the plans route. I'd probably do the same... Cheers, Dan On 02/06/2010 04:41 PM, Gene Rambo wrote: > I have been wrestling with this myself. I have 1/8" flat steel horns, > not streamlined per plans. I put them on straight because I could not > see having that flat plate out there at an angle. (like I am really > going to reduce the drag of a Piet) Also, if it lines up with the > cables, say at neutral, it won't line up at any other angle because the > geometry changes as the elevator moves up and down (although not much). > I had a friend who is an engineer (I know, this is not like me to > engineer anything) do the math, and the side load on the horn is not > very high at all, certainly not enough to bend 4130. > Now I am just obsessing with looks. The horns are installed, I am just > thinking whether to replace them with plans-built horns before it is too > late. > Does anyone else have flat steel horns that are straight?? Photos?? > Gene > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Michael Perez > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Saturday, February 06, 2010 3:59 PM > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Elevator horn twist > > I see in the plans that the elevator horns are installed at an angle > to be more in line with the cables. Did you guys just line up your > horns to be in line with the cables, or install the horns straight, > (in line with the fuselage or horiz. stab.) and twist the tips? It > appears when I line mine up with the cables that the horn is at > quite the angle...not sure if this would have an effect on the air > flow over the elevators. Only twisting the tips, seems to me, the > cables would put a side load on the horns. Thank you. > > * > > title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.