Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:40 AM - Re: Finally making sawdust and progress! (Jack Phillips)
2. 04:40 AM - laminating struts and tv (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 04:57 AM - Re: laminating struts and tv (Jack Phillips)
4. 05:17 AM - Not your father's Ambroid and balsa model airplanes anymore (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
5. 05:33 AM - Re: laminating struts and tv (Jerry Dotson)
6. 05:37 AM - Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 (chase143(at)aol.com)
7. 06:12 AM - Re: Finally making sawdust and progress! (Gary Boothe)
8. 06:12 AM - Re: totally way off topic--do not archive (TOM STINEMETZE)
9. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (airlion)
10. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: laminating struts (Gary Boothe)
11. 07:40 AM - Re: Finally making sawdust and progress! (K5YAC)
12. 07:43 AM - Re: laminating struts and tv (David Paule)
13. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (David Paule)
14. 07:57 AM - Re: laminating struts (JohnC)
15. 08:00 AM - Re: Sky Scout... (Ray Krause)
16. 08:04 AM - Re: wood struts (Ray Krause)
17. 08:07 AM - Sky Scout... (santiago morete)
18. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (Michael Perez)
19. 08:50 AM - one more view laminating struts (Jim Markle)
20. 09:13 AM - Pietenpol newbie...or..wow this is cool how do I get started (skidmk)
21. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (David Paule)
22. 09:22 AM - Re: Sky Scout... (gboothe5@comcast.net)
23. 09:34 AM - Re: wood struts (Billy McCaskill)
24. 10:02 AM - Re: one more view laminating struts (K5YAC)
25. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: one more view laminating struts (Jim Markle)
26. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: wood struts (Jim Markle)
27. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: one more view laminating struts (John Hofmann)
28. 11:12 AM - Larry Williams, Aluminum struts (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
29. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: wood struts (Ray Krause)
30. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: wood struts (Ray Krause)
31. 11:55 AM - Re: Sky Scout... (Ray Krause)
32. 12:20 PM - Re: Sky Scout... (gboothe5@comcast.net)
33. 01:23 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (Ryan Mueller)
34. 01:48 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts (Dan Yocum)
35. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (Dan Yocum)
36. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts (gboothe5@comcast.net)
37. 03:16 PM - Re: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 (Jack Phillips)
38. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (David Paule)
39. 04:12 PM - Aluminum struts (shad bell)
40. 04:41 PM - Re: Sky Scout... (ldmill)
41. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Sky Scout... (David Paule)
42. 05:29 PM - Re: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 (Jack)
43. 06:35 PM - Re: laminating struts (Jerry Dotson)
44. 06:48 PM - FW: Roll your mouse over any airport for the current conditions. (Jack Phillips)
45. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (Dan Yocum)
46. 08:01 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (David Paule)
47. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (Clif Dawson)
48. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts (Gary Boothe)
49. 08:51 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts and tv (Ryan Mueller)
50. 09:09 PM - Re: Re: laminating struts (Clif Dawson)
51. 09:34 PM - Re: wood struts (Billy McCaskill)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Finally making sawdust and progress! |
Good for you, Billy!
The older I get the more I realize that nothing much matters except building
and flying Pietenpols. Everything else is just distraction
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy
McCaskill
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress!
After a year and a half break from building, for various and sundry reasons,
I'm finally back to making sawdust and progress on my Piet project. Now
that my bandsaw is fixed and I've finally gotten some wood to work with, I'm
cutting some 1/2" x 1/4" capstrip so that I can soon start building ribs. I
should also have enough wood left over to buld my horizontal stab, thus
completing the woodwork part of my tail section. It feels really good to
finally be back to working on my Piet! I'll be back out in the garage again
tomorrow cutting more capstrip!
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287753#287753
Message 2
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| Subject: | laminating struts and tv |
I had an expert woodworker look at my wooden struts (which are laminated)
and he couldn't understand why I laminated them at all. He made the very
good point that just the wood without the ply center would be stronger, and
he's right. I guess the best reason for laminating is to reduce the
possibility of a hidden flaw in one piece of wood. and it does kinda look
cool.
Haven't had TV for ten years and wouldn't take it back for a million
dollars!! Not only is it the biggest time waster ever invented, it
gradually and subtly forms and changes one's thinking to fall in line with
whatever world view is popular at the moment. I'd like to think for myself,
thank you very much!
Sorry for the rant.
Douwe
Message 3
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| Subject: | laminating struts and tv |
Laminations also greatly reduce the possibility of a split. Cracks don't
propogate across the glue line.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: laminating struts and tv
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
I had an expert woodworker look at my wooden struts (which are laminated)
and he couldn't understand why I laminated them at all. He made the very
good point that just the wood without the ply center would be stronger, and
he's right. I guess the best reason for laminating is to reduce the
possibility of a hidden flaw in one piece of wood. and it does kinda look
cool.
Haven't had TV for ten years and wouldn't take it back for a million
dollars!! Not only is it the biggest time waster ever invented, it
gradually and subtly forms and changes one's thinking to fall in line with
whatever world view is popular at the moment. I'd like to think for myself,
thank you very much!
Sorry for the rant.
Douwe
Message 4
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| Subject: | Not your father's Ambroid and balsa model airplanes anymore |
For $299, model airplane building and flying has made revolutionary
progress since I was a lad.
No glow plugs, no messy castor oil Glowfuel, quiet, elegant and check
out those flashing LED nav lights !
Mike C.
do not archive
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/b25-overview.htm
Scroll down and click on video to play.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in the
next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have
to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it takes to get
several strips of wood with glue spread on them before clamping.
Thanks.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
Ribs and tailfeathers done
using Lycoming O-235
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
Message 6
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| Subject: | Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 |
Slightly off topic, but some very cool pictures. Glad to see Edwards is holding
open houses again. Very impressive show of aircraft if you can make it. Perhaps
someone could add a Piet.
http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/Edwards09/Edwards09.html
Steve
--------
Steve
www.mypiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287782#287782
Message 7
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| Subject: | Finally making sawdust and progress! |
Welcome back, Billy!!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy
McCaskill
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 8:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress!
After a year and a half break from building, for various and sundry reasons,
I'm finally back to making sawdust and progress on my Piet project. Now
that my bandsaw is fixed and I've finally gotten some wood to work with, I'm
cutting some 1/2" x 1/4" capstrip so that I can soon start building ribs. I
should also have enough wood left over to buld my horizontal stab, thus
completing the woodwork part of my tail section. It feels really good to
finally be back to working on my Piet! I'll be back out in the garage again
tomorrow cutting more capstrip!
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287753#287753
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: totally way off topic--do not archive |
>>I would much prefer spending 30 minutes going through 85 or so posts on
>>my brother's blog describing the teardown and restoration
>>of an 850 Norton twin than I would spending the same amount
>>of time watching some Olympic curling competition.
Oscar:
I agree that there's nothing on TV worth wasting your time over. All you
get is made-up news repeated over and over - ad nauseam, and porn thinly
disguised as drama. BUT when you start attacking the enormously entertaini
ng sport of curling - YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR! Where else can you watch an
Olympic sport that you can envision yourself as actually doing (as opposed
to just watching?)
Come on over to my house and I'll put on a couple of hours of Tinman Tech
so we can catch up on our welding skills.
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraft spruce.
That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my blank that
I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net> wrote:
> From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane
> and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see
> pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the
> wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
> Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the
> time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread
> on them before clamping.
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
Jerry,
I used T-88 & some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. I only tried the
resorcinol because I thought the dark brown color would enhance the look of
the lamination. I found, though, that there was little difference between
the two, once all the sanding and finishing was done. Clamping was merely
done with several wood clamps.
Clamping the struts while shaping was tried in two different ways. #1178
shows a simple woodworker's vice. I used this on all the landing gear
struts.
Because of the shape of the cabanes, they were a little more difficult to
clamp. For those I made a jig out of 2x4. The 2x4 has two pin hole locations
on one end as the cabanes are different lengths. This jig accomplishes two
things: first, you can use bolts in the holes to hold the piece down (I put
multiple washers under the strut to hold it up for shaping); secondly, the
jig ensures that each strut has the fittings located exactly right.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in
the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't
have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol,
T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it
takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before
clamping.
Thanks.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
Ribs and tailfeathers done
using Lycoming O-235
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Finally making sawdust and progress! |
Awesome Billy... keep us posted.
I agree with Jack... everything else is a distraction.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287811#287811
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
As a structural engineer, I've wondered why people are placing plywood in
the center of the laminated wood struts. The reasons that I have thought of
are:
a. You can make the bolt holes stronger. But good fitting design makes that
unnecessary.
b. The plywood cross-grain will help prevent the wood from splitting. But a
laminated strut, with good fitting design, should be pretty robust in that
regard all by itself.
Can anyone explain the plywood to me?
Thanks!
David Paule
P.S. I second Douwe's TV comment.... I don't miss TV.
> <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>
> I had an expert woodworker look at my wooden struts (which are laminated)
> and he couldn't understand why I laminated them at all. He made the very
> good point that just the wood without the ply center would be stronger,
> and
> he's right. I guess the best reason for laminating is to reduce the
> possibility of a hidden flaw in one piece of wood. and it does kinda look
> cool.
>
> Haven't had TV for ten years and wouldn't take it back for a million
> dollars!! Not only is it the biggest time waster ever invented, it
> gradually and subtly forms and changes one's thinking to fall in line with
> whatever world view is popular at the moment. I'd like to think for
> myself,
> thank you very much!
>
> Sorry for the rant.
>
> Douwe
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
I have read somewhere, recently and I can't find the link, dang it, that
Plastic Resin glue loses strength after repeated changes of humidity. It
might have been that Advisory Circular about maintaining old aircraft.
Might check into that.
Of the glues mentioned, I'd choose either the Resorcinol or the T-88. The
T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the Resorcinol
requires that.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: "airlion" <airlion@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraft
spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my
blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net> wrote:
> From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane
> and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see
> pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the
> wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
> Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the
> time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread
> on them before clamping.
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
That sure does not look like 15 ribs hanging up in the ceiling in that last photo.
--------
I just hope when it's my turn to reach up and touch the face of God, I don't poke
him in the eye on accident.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287814#287814
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout... |
Thanks, Gary.
I will accept your humility with a grain of salt! Your beautiful
workmanship attests to your abilities!
The point about laminating to avoid wood defects is well taken, I will
follow suit. After computing the costs of the metal struts, I am
leaning towards the wood struts! As far as the spars go, they were
included in the wood I got with the Sky Scout package; they are spruce.
But rather than the 1" thickness, they are 3/4", I think I will sandwich
then with two pieces of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so they fit
the ribs). The Hughes Hardwood place in Chico had beautiful parallel
grain fir that would have made beautiful spars, cheap, too. Next time I
am in Chico, I will check out the hickory. The ash seems to be really
dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). I will try to look it up.
Thanks for the response. And yes, I have referenced Chris's web site and
printed many photos.... but it makes my eyes and brain hurt!
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
Ray,
Your questions are intelligent and educated..attributes to which I
make no personal claim. In all honesty, I perused the West Coast Piet
web site to exhaustion. Too bad Chris Tracy doesn't have sponsors, or
he'd be a rich man! After looking at every application of wood strut
that has been built and is flying, I decided it was doable.
Conversations about appropriate woods went from ash to spruce, including
hickory. I decided that I liked the look of hickory and the decision was
that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions for steel.
Later conversations with another builder (either Cliff Dawson or Douwe
Blumberg), far more intelligent and educated than I, showed published
strengths of various woods, and verified that hickory had plenty of
strength for our purposes. I think I can find that email, but it's on my
other computer at home.
My wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the shape and size on the
plans. Connections will surely be similar to Douwe's. All cabanes and
wing struts are laminated because..that's what everyone does! Really, it
gives you an opportunity to rotate the grain and eliminate the
possibility of having a weak link. Also, it looks really cool!
My wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in Auburn, Ca (California
Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing in whatever length and
size needed. He even mills, if necessary. He located my fir spars and
sold all four for $185!! Bonus is that he helped build some wood
airplanes and knows what grains to look for.
Further note: If anything goes wrong, I'll blame Chris Tracy for
publishing all those photos!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray
Krause
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
Gary,
If I made these 22" struts (front/center) from metal, they would weigh
22+ ounces without the ends. How did you decide on the thickness and
shape for the struts? Why did you chose Hickory versus, say ash? Did
you laminate because you needed to get to a certain thickness, or for
strength? There is a source for hickory and ash that has 2" (8/4)
material in Chico, I think. I got some 1" ash for 2.37 per board foot.
Are your "flying struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What shape?
Thanks,
Ray Krause.
P.S. The aerostream tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front
strut ($28.00/ft and .7593 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft right
now. I am not sure of its quality. None of the aerotubing matches the
recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 X .75 and 2" X 1").
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
Ray,
I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took
10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21"
end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!).
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(18 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray
Krause
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
<raykrause@frontiernet.net>
Shad,
Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the
4130
struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working.
If the
wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way.
I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the
metal
struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close
to the
right size.
Thanks for your help.
Ray Krause
----- Original Message -----
From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
<aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier
than
> streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be
> required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just
usse 4130,
> If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the
2 inch
> by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg
aero works
> for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on
streamlined
> tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg
Aero
> Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my
hanger, he
> does not have a web site.
>
>
> Shad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 16
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Douwe,
Thanks for the response. But has anyone used aluminum struts. ACS sells
streamlined aluminum in maximum lengths of 6', if I am reading their
catalogue correctly. I am sure they are available somewhere else in longer
lengths.
Congratulations on your Air Camper's sign-off and flight, if I am
remembering correctly. I have not seen the pictures that everyone else is
referencing, did I miss something?
Thanks,
Ray Krause
N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood struts
> <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>
> I remember a while back when people were talking about strut weights, I
> went
> out and weighed one of my wooden struts with fittings. Someone had
> weighed
> their steel ones and the wood one was lighter. I can't though find my old
> email and don't remember the weights.
>
> I'll bet the aluminum struts are lighter though.
>
> Douwe
>
>
>
Message 17
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Hi Ray,
-
I think you can use 4130 steel, 1025 steel, aluminum or-wood, round or st
reamlined struts,-all that-has been used successfully.- My round, 102
5 steel struts weigh about-5 pounds each.
Saludos
-
Santiago=0A=0A=0A Yahoo! Cocina=0A=0AEncontra las mejores recetas con
Yahoo! Cocina.=0A=0A=0Ahttp://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
-
-
Not sure I agree with the below statement.- T-88 states using minimal cla
mping pressure.-
The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the Resor
cinol
requires that.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: "airlion" <airlion@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraf
t
spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my
blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net> wrote:
> From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane
> and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see
> pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the
> wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
> Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the
> time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread
> on them before clamping.
>- Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
le, List Admin.
Message 19
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| Subject: | one more view laminating struts |
One more view on laminating cabanes...
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=810&PlaneID=52&FName=Jim&LName=Markle&PlaneName=Air%20Camper
If that link doesn't work, check out the build logs on mykitplane.com
my .02
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
>Sent: Feb 23, 2010 9:05 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts
>
>Jerry,
>
>I used T-88 & some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. I only tried the
>resorcinol because I thought the dark brown color would enhance the look of
>the lamination. I found, though, that there was little difference between
>the two, once all the sanding and finishing was done. Clamping was merely
>done with several wood clamps.
>
>Clamping the struts while shaping was tried in two different ways. #1178
>shows a simple woodworker's vice. I used this on all the landing gear
>struts.
>
>Because of the shape of the cabanes, they were a little more difficult to
>clamp. For those I made a jig out of 2x4. The 2x4 has two pin hole locations
>on one end as the cabanes are different lengths. This jig accomplishes two
>things: first, you can use bolts in the holes to hold the piece down (I put
>multiple washers under the strut to hold it up for shaping); secondly, the
>jig ensures that each strut has the fittings located exactly right.
>
>
>Gary Boothe
>Cool, CA
>Pietenpol
>WW Corvair Conversion
>Tail done, Fuselage on gear
>18 ribs done
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson
>Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
>
>
>I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in
>the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't
>have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol,
>T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it
>takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before
>clamping.
> Thanks.
>
>--------
>Jerry Dotson
>59 Daniel Johnson Rd
>Baker, FL 32531
>
>Started building NX510JD July, 2009
>Ribs and tailfeathers done
>using Lycoming O-235
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Pietenpol newbie...or..wow this is cool how do I get started |
Hi All,
I've looked upon the Piet to be built over several summers for my summer camp. www.highflight.ca
we'll be getting hands on with young folks aged 10-15, was wondering if you could
give me some pointers.
What would be the largest pilot the stretch fuse would accomodate?
Any pitfalls anyone can stear me away from. this is for the kids, once the aircraft
is built, we'll start another and so on,, we will be teaching kids to fly
in these planes for free.
thanks
Mike
--------
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287834#287834
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included
T-88 joints clamped tightly.
Excellent results.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
Not sure I agree with the below statement. T-88 states using
minimal clamping pressure.
The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI,
and the Resorcinol
requires that.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: "airlion" <airlion@bellsouth.net>
To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
<airlion@bellsouth.net>
Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood
carried by aircraft
spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am
using on my
blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net> wrote:
> From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane
> and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see
> pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the
> wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
> Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the
> time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread
> on them before clamping.
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.b nbsp; -Matt
matronics.com/contribution"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contri=========
======
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout... |
Ray,
FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for spars.
Gary
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Message 23
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I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for his struts.
I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got the tubing,
and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had with me, and I have
since misplaced the notepad somewhere.
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: one more view laminating struts |
Oh crap! Not I get it... the VACUUM BAGGING demonstration.
over and over and over and over ... LOL!
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287840#287840
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: one more view laminating struts |
I knew that was coming....
-----Original Message-----
>From: K5YAC <hangar10@cox.net>
>Sent: Feb 23, 2010 12:01 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one more view laminating struts
>
>
>Oh crap! Not I get it... the VACUUM BAGGING demonstration.
>
>over and over and over and over ... LOL!
>
>--------
>Mark - working on wings
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287840#287840
>
>
Message 26
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http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html
-----Original Message-----
>From: Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net>
>Sent: Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
>
>I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for his struts.
I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got the tubing,
and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had with me, and I have
since misplaced the notepad somewhere.
>
>--------
>Billy McCaskill
>Urbana, IL
>tailfeathers almost done
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: one more view laminating struts |
I think he's got it!
do not archive
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
Madison, WI 53718
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com
On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:01 PM, K5YAC wrote:
>
> Oh crap! Not I get it... the VACUUM BAGGING demonstration.
>
> over and over and over and over ... LOL!
>
> --------
> Mark - working on wings
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287840#287840
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Larry Williams, Aluminum struts |
As always, Chris Tracy's Westcoastpiet.com 'pictures' web site comes
in with excellent value.
For more photos go there, under Larry Williams.
[cid:image001.jpg@01CAB491.5E92FF70]
Message 29
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Thanks, Billy.
Maybe Larry will respond to this thread. Jim Markle sent me the source for
the aluminum struts, looks very good.
Ray Krause
----- Original Message -----
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
> I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for
> his struts. I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got
> the tubing, and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had
> with me, and I have since misplaced the notepad somewhere.
>
> --------
> Billy McCaskill
> Urbana, IL
> tailfeathers almost done
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839
>
>
>
Message 30
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Jim,
This is great information, thanks! This makes the aluminum struts a lot
more reasonable... and lighter!
Thanks,
Ray Krause
N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. and building the Sky Scout
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
> <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
>
>
> http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Billy McCaskill <billmz@cox.net>
>>Sent: Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>>
>>
>>I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for
>>his struts. I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got
>>the tubing, and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had
>>with me, and I have since misplaced the notepad somewhere.
>>
>>--------
>>Billy McCaskill
>>Urbana, IL
>>tailfeathers almost done
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout... |
Gary,
Thanks for the information. If using the 3/4" spar material, would I
still rout out the spar as shown in the plans? Are you building a Sky
Scout?
Ray Krause
----- Original Message -----
From: gboothe5@comcast.net
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
Ray,
FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for spars.
Gary
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800
To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
Thanks, Gary.
I will accept your humility with a = grain of salt! Your
beautiful workmanship attests to your = abilities!
The point about laminating to avoid = wood defects is well
taken, I will follow suit. After computing the costs of = the
metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood struts! As far as the =
spars go, they were included in the wood I got with the Sky Scout
package; = they are spruce. But rather than the 1" thickness,
they are 3/4", I think I = will sandwich then with two pieces of
1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so = they fit the ribs). The
Hughes Hardwood = place in Chico had beautiful parallel grain fir
that would have made beautiful = spars, cheap, too. Next time I
am in Chico, I will check out the = hickory. The ash seems to be
really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). I = will try to
look it up.
Thanks for the response. And yes, I = have referenced Chris's
web site and printed many photos.... but it makes my eyes and =
brain hurt!
Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 = 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout...
Ray,
Your questions are intelligent and educated=85.attributes to
which I make = no personal claim. In all honesty, I perused the
West Coast Piet web site to = exhaustion. Too bad Chris Tracy
doesn=92t have sponsors, or he=92d be a rich man! = After
looking at every application of wood strut that has been built and is
= flying, I decided it was doable. Conversations about
appropriate woods went = from ash to spruce, including hickory. I
decided that I liked the look of = hickory and the decision was
that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = for
steel.
Later conversations with another builder (either Cliff Dawson
or Douwe = Blumberg), far more intelligent and educated than I,
showed published = strengths of various woods, and verified that
hickory had plenty of strength for = our purposes. I think I can
find that email, but it=92s on my other = computer at home.
My wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the shape and size
on the = plans. Connections will surely be similar to
Douwe=92s. All cabanes and wing = struts are laminated
because=85.that=92s what everyone does! Really, it gives you =
an opportunity to rotate the grain and eliminate the possibility of
= having a weak link. Also, it looks really cool!
My wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in Auburn, Ca
(California Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing in
whatever length = and size needed. He even mills, if necessary.
He located my fir spars and sold = all four for $185!! Bonus is
that he helped build some wood airplanes and knows = what grains
to look for.
Further note: If anything goes wrong, I=92ll blame Chris
Tracy for = publishing all those photos!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of =
Ray Krause
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM
To: = pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout...
Gary,
If I made = these 22" struts (front/center) from metal, they
would weigh 22+ ounces without = the ends. How did you decide on
the thickness and shape for the struts? = Why did you chose
Hickory versus, say ash? Did you laminate because you = needed
to get to a certain thickness, or for strength? There is a = source
for hickory and ash that has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think.
I = got some 1" ash for 2.37 per board foot.
Are your = "flying struts" (the long struts) also hickory?
What shape?
Thanks,
Ray Krause.
P.S. The = aerostream tubing is very expensive, about $56.00
per front strut ($28.00/ft and = .7593 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for
$17.00/ft right now. I am not sure of its = quality. None of the
aerotubing matches the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 = X
.75 and 2" X 1").
----- = Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=
Sent: = Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
Ray,
I had a couple free minutes before I took = off for the week.
It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It =
measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the
postal scales!).
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, = mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(18 ribs down=85)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol= -list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray
Krause
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
<raykrause@frontiernet.net>
Shad,
Thanks for the comments on the struts. = I will probably go
with the 4130
struts from Wicks. It is just that I = really enjoy the wood
working. If the
wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way.
I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero = Reference. The size
of the metal
struts is included in the plans; so I can = probably get
pretty close to the
right size.
Thanks for your help.
Ray Krause
----- Original Message -----
From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted = by: shad bell
<aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet = wooden struts are
heavier than
> streamlined tube. The bolts, and = steel end fittings that
would be
> required add up fast. As for the = older metal
designation, just usse 4130,
> If you need I can see what dimensions = ours are, some
where in the 2 inch
> by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall = thickness. also check
dillsburg aero works
> for tube prices, wicks is also having a = special "sale" on
streamlined
> tubing of some dimensions. I can = look up the number for
Dillsburg Aero
> Works in PA if you need me to, I have a = price list out in
my hanger, he
> does not have a web = site.
>
>
> Shad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<
/PRE>http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<
B><
/PRE>http://forums.matronics.com
<
/PRE>
http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution<
/PRE>
href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.m
at
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com
/c
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
~=B2=03r
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout... |
Negative.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
Take a look at the Technical Data Sheet for T-88, which is information
coming straight from the manufacturer of the product:
<http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf>
http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf
They go so far as to say that "clamping is not necessary if the joint is
undisturbed during set-up of the adhesive". Minimal clamping, as Michael
noted, would be prudent to ensure the joint is stable while curing. However,
"lots of clamping pressure" is certainly not needed, and can lead to a weak
joint due to excessive pressure starving the joint of epoxy.
Ryan
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:14 AM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote:
> There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included
> T-88 joints clamped tightly.
>
> Excellent results.
>
> David Paule
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:42 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
>
>
> Not sure I agree with the below statement. T-88 states using minimal
> clamping pressure.
>
>
> The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the
> Resorcinol
> requires that.
>
> David Paule
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "airlion" <airlion@bellsouth.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
>
>
> >
>
> Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by
> aircraft
> spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my
> blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner
>
> --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdotson@erec.net>>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdotson@erec.net>
> >
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
> > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> > by: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@erec.net<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdotson@erec.net>
> >
> >
> > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane
> > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see
> > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the
> > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
> > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the
> > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread
> > on them before clamping.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --------
> > Jerry Dotson
> > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> > Baker, FL 32531
> >
> > Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> > Ribs and tailfeathers done
> > using Lycoming O-235
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Email Forum -
> > FAQ,
> > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> > List Contribution Web Site -
> > -Matt
> > Dralle, List Admin.
> >
> >
> >tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.b nbsp; -Matt
> matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>
> http://www.matronics.com/contri===============
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
Are those... could it be.... RIBS???!??
do not archive
comments from the peanut gallery
;-)
On 02/23/2010 09:05 AM, Gary Boothe wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I used T-88& some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. I only tried the
> resorcinol because I thought the dark brown color would enhance the look of
> the lamination. I found, though, that there was little difference between
> the two, once all the sanding and finishing was done. Clamping was merely
> done with several wood clamps.
>
> Clamping the struts while shaping was tried in two different ways. #1178
> shows a simple woodworker's vice. I used this on all the landing gear
> struts.
>
> Because of the shape of the cabanes, they were a little more difficult to
> clamp. For those I made a jig out of 2x4. The 2x4 has two pin hole locations
> on one end as the cabanes are different lengths. This jig accomplishes two
> things: first, you can use bolts in the holes to hold the piece down (I put
> multiple washers under the strut to hold it up for shaping); secondly, the
> jig ensures that each strut has the fittings located exactly right.
>
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> 18 ribs done
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jerry Dotson"<jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in
> the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't
> have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol,
> T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it
> takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before
> clamping.
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
On 02/23/2010 09:47 AM, David Paule wrote:
>
> I have read somewhere, recently and I can't find the link, dang it, that
> Plastic Resin glue loses strength after repeated changes of humidity. It
> might have been that Advisory Circular about maintaining old aircraft.
>
> Might check into that.
>
> Of the glues mentioned, I'd choose either the Resorcinol or the T-88.
> The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the
> Resorcinol requires that.
I have heard that T-88 is VERY much hurt by too much clamping pressure.
DON'T DO IT! Airplanes have fallen apart in flight because too much
T-88 was squeezed out of the joint! Keep the clamping pressure to a
minimum with T-88. Probably all epoxies, in general.
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
Hanging in the background? Yes, but that pic was from 6 mos ago. Might have done
one or two since then. I'm sensitive about that...
Gary
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts
Are those... could it be.... RIBS???!??
do not archive
comments from the peanut gallery
;-)
On 02/23/2010 09:05 AM, Gary Boothe wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I used T-88& some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. I only tried the
> resorcinol because I thought the dark brown color would enhance the look of
> the lamination. I found, though, that there was little difference between
> the two, once all the sanding and finishing was done. Clamping was merely
> done with several wood clamps.
>
> Clamping the struts while shaping was tried in two different ways. #1178
> shows a simple woodworker's vice. I used this on all the landing gear
> struts.
>
> Because of the shape of the cabanes, they were a little more difficult to
> clamp. For those I made a jig out of 2x4. The 2x4 has two pin hole locations
> on one end as the cabanes are different lengths. This jig accomplishes two
> things: first, you can use bolts in the holes to hold the piece down (I put
> multiple washers under the strut to hold it up for shaping); secondly, the
> jig ensures that each strut has the fittings located exactly right.
>
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> 18 ribs done
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jerry Dotson"<jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in
> the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't
> have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol,
> T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it
> takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before
> clamping.
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 37
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| Subject: | Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 |
Cool pictures, Steve. I liked the soundclips. And I always get a thrill
out of seeing F-16s fly.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
chase143(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:37 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009
<chase143@aol.com>
Slightly off topic, but some very cool pictures. Glad to see Edwards is
holding open houses again. Very impressive show of aircraft if you can make
it. Perhaps someone could add a Piet.
http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/Edwards09/Edwards09.html
Steve
--------
Steve
www.mypiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287782#287782
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
Dan, if you can substantiate your comment below, please do so.
Ryan, I found the article in "Fine Woodworking," August '07, page 37.
Their testing was of a tight fit joint, a snug fit joint and a loose fit
joint. They tested Maple, Oak and Ipe, none of them being woods we'd
customarily use in aircraft structures. The joint design they tested not
only didn't lend itself to calculating the shear strength of the glue,
they didn't give enough information to make that possible. The data are
only suitable for comparing one fit and one type of wood to another.
With that in mind, the comparison is worth considering, especially for
the difference of strength with the different fits.
I want to emphasize that the strengths given in the article are not psi,
and that they can't be compared to the 1,800 psi lap shear strength of
T-88 with maple on the PDF sheet that Ryan referenced.
Their data for T-88 with Maple is:
Tight joint, 1,690 pounds,
Snug joint, 1,680 pounds,
Loose joint, 1,635 pounds.
Their T-88 data for Oak is:
Tight joint, 1,908 pounds,
Snug joint, 1,832 pounds,
Loose joint, 1,557 pounds.
Their T-88 data for Ipe is:
Tight joint, 2,425 pounds,
Snug joint, 2,712 pounds,
Loose joint, 2,503 pounds.
They also tested Titebond III and got roughly the same values. Other
glues that they tested were Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, Gorilla Glue, J.E>
Moser's Ground Hide Glue, and Old Brown Glue.
The tight-fit joints needed to be tapped together. They didn't say that
they clamped them The snug-fit joints needed only hand pressure, and the
loose-fit joints had a small gap. They said they used ample glue.
Incidentally, the hide glues were roughly 3/4 the strength of T-88 or
the PVA glues (Titebond or Elmers, which were all close) and the
polyurethane glue was distinctly weaker, and proved the most sensitive
to the fit of the joint.
I hope this eases some of your concern here. T-88 is a reasonably
forgiving glue. And again, please supply references to back up the
statement below if you can.
Thanks!
David Paule
P.S. Inasmuch as these airplanes are certified as experimental, actually
running a controlled experiment and reporting the results might be a fun
thing for someone to do.
> Airplanes have fallen apart in flight because too much
> T-88 was squeezed out of the joint!
> Dan
Take a look at the Technical Data Sheet for T-88, which is information
coming straight from the manufacturer of the product:
http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf
They go so far as to say that "clamping is not necessary if the joint
is undisturbed during set-up of the adhesive". Minimal clamping, as
Michael noted, would be prudent to ensure the joint is stable while
curing. However, "lots of clamping pressure" is certainly not needed,
and can lead to a weak joint due to excessive pressure starving the
joint of epoxy.
Ryan
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:14 AM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote:
There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that
included T-88 joints clamped tightly.
Excellent results.
David Paule
Message 39
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For alluminum struts, you might try Carlson Aircraft, out of East Palistine Ohio.
My dad and I flew over there in 99, before he decided on the Piet, and he
had all kinds of alum. for the kits he designed, extruded I beams etc etc. Tragicly,
Errnie was killed only a few months later due to an engine failure shortly
after takeoff. The companny still continues to do buisness as of the last
I checked. Give it a google search and see what you find.
Shad
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout... |
Hi Ray,
I think they've sold somewhere between 130 and 140 Waiex kits now. The best I
can tell, about 20 or so seem to be flying. Got the panel in over the weekend,
then the 9 yr old and I went hunting "The Baron"... almost got Snoopy and the
doghouse in the process, but he saw Scotty waving and Snoop managed to get out
the way in time...
Lorin
Lorin,
You make me feel better! I delayed starting the Scout to let my wife adjust
a little, but now that it is started, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy the
building; but flying the Waiex is a real hoot! It is always hard to decide
which I want to do when the sun shines.
How many Waiex's are out and how many flying now? They are really beautiful
ships.
Thanks,
Ray Krause
N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs.
---
--------
Lorin Miller
Waiex N81YX
Pietenpol next up
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287905#287905
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout... |
A buddy of mine is building a Xenos... nice kit, and he says things line up
really good.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: "ldmill" <lorin.miller@emerson.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout...
>
> Hi Ray,
> I think they've sold somewhere between 130 and 140 Waiex kits now. The
> best I can tell, about 20 or so seem to be flying. Got the panel in over
> the weekend, then the 9 yr old and I went hunting "The Baron"... almost
> got Snoopy and the doghouse in the process, but he saw Scotty waving and
> Snoop managed to get out the way in time...
> Lorin
>
>
> Lorin,
>
> You make me feel better! I delayed starting the Scout to let my wife
> adjust
> a little, but now that it is started, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy
> the
> building; but flying the Waiex is a real hoot! It is always hard to decide
> which I want to do when the sun shines.
>
> How many Waiex's are out and how many flying now? They are really
> beautiful
> ships.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Krause
>
> N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
> Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs.
> ---
>
> --------
> Lorin Miller
> Waiex N81YX
> Pietenpol next up
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287905#287905
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 |
God Bless America! Great pictures!
Thanks
Jack
DSM
Slightly off topic, but some very cool pictures. Glad to see Edwards is
holding open houses again. Very impressive show of aircraft if you can make
it. Perhaps someone could add a Piet.
http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/Edwards09/Edwards09.html
Steve
--------
Steve
www.mypiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287782#287782
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
Thanks for the pictures Gary. I think I will use T-88. I am going to laminate the
gear legs too. Did you try any stain? I believe I will just varnish without
any stain.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
Ribs and tailfeathers done
using Lycoming O-235
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287914#287914
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| Subject: | FW: Roll your mouse over any airport for the current conditions. |
It works
Roll your mouse over any airport for the current conditions. Pretty Neat
That's more than pretty neat. That's frappin' unbelievable! Damn! Click on
the locations too and get even more wx info.
Pilots sure have a lot of toys to play with now... interactive computer
maps, glass cockpits, GPS, goggles that see thru the airplane skin, fighters
that can tailslide and cobra, ....... is there more we don't know about?
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
On 02/23/2010 05:48 PM, David Paule wrote:
> Dan, if you can substantiate your comment below, please do so.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 010727X01532&key=1
"...examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive
used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded
to the spar."
Having talked to a couple people who were familiar with the accident, I
understand that the lack of coverage to be due to the adhesive being
squeezed out by excessive clamping pressures. These people don't work
for the FAA or the USDA Forest Products Lab, so they could have been
mistaken and just drew incorrect conclusions from the report.
> P.S. Inasmuch as these airplanes are certified as experimental, actually
> running a controlled experiment and reporting the results might be a fun
> thing for someone to do.
I would like to do that test, but everything being equal and the lack of
time I have, I probably won't be able to any time soon.
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
Dan,
Thanks for the link. I read it and followed its link to a full report, which
says it wasn't T-88, it was a different glue; it contains this:
-------------------------------
TESTS AND RESEARCH
The USDA Forest Products Laboratory examined the left and right wing spar
sections and their respective doublers. The examination of the wood spar
composition revealed the cellular structure of the spars was consistent with
that of Sitka Spruce, and the species that made up the plys of the plywood
doublers were maple and yellow poplar. Chemical analysis of the adhesive
bonds indicated Urea-formaldehyde was used for attaching the doubler plates.
The examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive used
on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to the
spar. The Forest Products Laboratory report stated, "There was also very
little penetration of the adhesive into the spar."
The examination of the right front and rear upper spars revealed the
compression and tension surfaces. The examination of the bond on the right
upper rear spar doubler revealed the doubler was still bonded to the spar,
but there was a lack of adhesive at the outer edges of the doubler plate.
The lack of adhesive created a gap between the spar and the doubler.
--------------------------------
So this failure was not a T-88 failure due to excessive clamping pressure.
It was a different glue and they apparently didn't use enough of it.
Excessive glue could have been squeezed out. However, with a
urea-formaldehyde type glue, my understanding is that it's pretty hard to
get excessive glue pressure. I'd think that insufficient coverage rather
than too much pressure would have been the cause due to that.
One common urea-formaldehyde glue is Weldwood Plastic Resin. I looked up
their data sheet, http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf and it says
this about pressure:
"Once the glue is applied, pressure should be applied. Soft wood and
machined hard woods can be glued at low
pressures (50 PSI). Rough cut parts require more pressure (175 to 300 PSI)
for softwood and hardwood
respectively. Sufficient adhesive should be applied so that some squeeze out
of excess adhesive is visible at
edges. Glue line thickness should be from 0.003 + 0.006 inch for best
results."
That's a lot of pressure! If that doesn't squeeze out "too much" glue, the
whole concept of squeezing out too much glue is nothing but an urban myth.
Dan, if you should decide to run some tests, I'd be glad to help out if I
can.
Thanks for the interesting link!
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Yocum" <yocum@fnal.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
>
>
> On 02/23/2010 05:48 PM, David Paule wrote:
>> Dan, if you can substantiate your comment below, please do so.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 010727X01532&key=1
>
> "...examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive
> used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to
> the spar."
>
> Having talked to a couple people who were familiar with the accident, I
> understand that the lack of coverage to be due to the adhesive being
> squeezed out by excessive clamping pressures. These people don't work for
> the FAA or the USDA Forest Products Lab, so they could have been mistaken
> and just drew incorrect conclusions from the report.
>
>> P.S. Inasmuch as these airplanes are certified as experimental, actually
>> running a controlled experiment and reporting the results might be a fun
>> thing for someone to do.
>
> I would like to do that test, but everything being equal and the lack of
> time I have, I probably won't be able to any time soon.
>
> Dan
>
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
Absolutely! T-88 or any such glue requires a thin film
be left between the wood layers. Just tighten enough
to make sure you've squeezed out some around the
edges so you know all the surfaces are covered.
Resourcinal, Tightbond, yellow, white glues all require
squeezing all excess glue out of the joint.
Clif
Not sure I agree with the below statement. T-88 states using
minimal clamping pressure.
The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI,
and the Resorcinol
requires that.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: "airlion" <airlion@bellsouth.net>
To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
<airlion@bellsouth.net>
Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood
carried by aircraft
spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am
using on my
blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net> wrote:
> From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted
> by: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@erec.net>
>
> I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane
> and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see
> pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the
> wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and
> Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the
> time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread
> on them before clamping.
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd
> Baker, FL 32531
>
> Started building NX510JD July, 2009
> Ribs and tailfeathers done
> using Lycoming O-235
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.b nbsp; -Matt
matronics.com/contribution"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contri=========
======
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
02/22/10 11:34:00
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
Jerry,
You're welcomed! I did not use any stain. I think most woods are beautiful
without it! My 'varnish' is Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts
Thanks for the pictures Gary. I think I will use T-88. I am going to
laminate the gear legs too. Did you try any stain? I believe I will just
varnish without any stain.
--------
Jerry Dotson
59 Daniel Johnson Rd
Baker, FL 32531
Started building NX510JD July, 2009
Ribs and tailfeathers done
using Lycoming O-235
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287914#287914
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts and tv |
Hi David,
There are a few inconsistencies in your arguments. You initially said "The
T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clamping pressure". Later you stated "There
was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included T-88
joints clamped tightly." But when you later post a summary of that article,
you noted that "The tight-fit joints needed to be tapped together. They
didn't say that they clamped them." Along with other comments about the data
and methods of testing not being useful for comparison to T-88, it would
appear that your data does not really support your claim.
Insofar as your latest post, you postulate that "That's a lot of pressure!
If that doesn't squeeze out "too much" glue, the whole concept of squeezing
out too much glue is nothing but an urban myth.". Well, the glue you are
referring to is a type of glue that does need plenty of clamping
pressure....we are not disputing that....this was about T-88, which has
different clamping pressure requirements.
I point you again to the website of System Three, the manufacturer of T-88.
Since they developed and produce the product I would consider them to be a
credible authority on how best to use it. On their site you can find "The
Epoxy Handbook", which contains all kinds of information on how to use their
products:
http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/m_published-literature.asp
In section VII D, they note the following about bonding with epoxy:
"Third, do not over-clamp. Epoxy resins require only contact pressure.
Over-clamping can squeeze most of the adhesive out of the glue joint and the
epoxy that is left is absorbed into the wood starving the joint. A
glue-starved joint is very weak. Use only enough pressure to hold the joint
immobile and keep the two surfaces in contact until the epoxy has set
overnight at normal temperatures. Nails, screws, clamps, rubber bands, or
staples can all be utilized. Clamp just hard enough to close up the joint."
I would say that the above paragraph is just about directly contradictory to
your statement that "The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clamping
pressure"", and your assertion that squeeze out is a myth; since it comes
right from the people that make the product....I would have to give them the
edge on this one.
Have a good evening,
Ryan
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:00 PM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote:
>
> Dan,
>
> Thanks for the link. I read it and followed its link to a full report,
> which says it wasn't T-88, it was a different glue; it contains this:
> -------------------------------
>
> TESTS AND RESEARCH
>
> The USDA Forest Products Laboratory examined the left and right wing spar
> sections and their respective doublers. The examination of the wood spar
> composition revealed the cellular structure of the spars was consistent with
> that of Sitka Spruce, and the species that made up the plys of the plywood
> doublers were maple and yellow poplar. Chemical analysis of the adhesive
> bonds indicated Urea-formaldehyde was used for attaching the doubler plates.
>
> The examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive
> used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to
> the spar. The Forest Products Laboratory report stated, "There was also very
> little penetration of the adhesive into the spar."
>
> The examination of the right front and rear upper spars revealed the
> compression and tension surfaces. The examination of the bond on the right
> upper rear spar doubler revealed the doubler was still bonded to the spar,
> but there was a lack of adhesive at the outer edges of the doubler plate.
> The lack of adhesive created a gap between the spar and the doubler.
>
> --------------------------------
> So this failure was not a T-88 failure due to excessive clamping pressure.
> It was a different glue and they apparently didn't use enough of it.
> Excessive glue could have been squeezed out. However, with a
> urea-formaldehyde type glue, my understanding is that it's pretty hard to
> get excessive glue pressure. I'd think that insufficient coverage rather
> than too much pressure would have been the cause due to that.
>
> One common urea-formaldehyde glue is Weldwood Plastic Resin. I looked up
> their data sheet, http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf and it says
> this about pressure:
>
> "Once the glue is applied, pressure should be applied. Soft wood and
> machined hard woods can be glued at low
> pressures (50 PSI). Rough cut parts require more pressure (175 to 300 PSI)
> for softwood and hardwood
> respectively. Sufficient adhesive should be applied so that some squeeze
> out of excess adhesive is visible at
> edges. Glue line thickness should be from 0.003 + 0.006 inch for best
> results."
>
> That's a lot of pressure! If that doesn't squeeze out "too much" glue, the
> whole concept of squeezing out too much glue is nothing but an urban myth.
>
> Dan, if you should decide to run some tests, I'd be glad to help out if I
> can.
>
> Thanks for the interesting link!
>
> David Paule
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: laminating struts |
Again I have to say absolutely! don't forget that stain
penetrates into the wood. This means that the softest
part of the wood takes in the most and the harder parts
the least. This can reverse the grain pattern and look
strange, especialy on softwoods like Spruce. The
depth and pattern of natural colour dissappears too.
Clif
> Jerry,
>
> You're welcomed! I did not use any stain. I think most woods are beautiful
> without it! My 'varnish' is Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish.
>
> Gary Boothe
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It was indeed Carlson Aircraft where Larry told me that he got his aluminum strut
tubing from. I found my notepad this afternoon...
--------
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287934#287934
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