---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/01/10: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:42 AM - dimpletape (Douwe Blumberg) 2. 12:42 AM - Pietenpol logo (Douwe Blumberg) 3. 02:47 AM - Re: Pietenpol logo (Jack) 4. 06:48 AM - Re: Pietenpol logo (taildrags) 5. 06:54 AM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (airlion) 6. 07:37 AM - Riblett 612 and angle of incidence (Dan Yocum) 7. 08:36 AM - Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence (helspersew@aol.com) 8. 08:36 AM - Re: was glue question now latex paint (Michael Perez) 9. 08:48 AM - John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) (Michael Perez) 10. 08:53 AM - Re: was glue question now latex paint (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 11. 09:18 AM - Re: Pietenpol logo (Don Emch) 12. 09:38 AM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (Dan Yocum) 13. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol logo (Michael Perez) 14. 09:52 AM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (Michael Perez) 15. 10:05 AM - Re: John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) (H RULE) 16. 10:49 AM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (helspersew@aol.com) 17. 11:03 AM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (airlion) 18. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Cafepress (Wayne Bressler) 19. 01:02 PM - Re: Pietenpol logo (Michael Groah) 20. 02:20 PM - Re: Pietenpol logo (taildrags) 21. 03:43 PM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (skellytown flyer) 22. 03:55 PM - Re: Pietenpol logo (Wayne Bressler) 23. 03:57 PM - Re: dimpletape on a Ford (gliderx5@comcast.net) 24. 04:50 PM - trailer (skellytown flyer) 25. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: Cafepress (Gary Boothe) 26. 04:50 PM - Re: John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) (Gary Boothe) 27. 04:53 PM - Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence (dgaldrich) 28. 05:04 PM - economy dimpletape (shad bell) 29. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence--No, no, TWO DEGREES!!! (Tim Willis) 30. 05:25 PM - Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence--No, no, TWO DEGREES!!! (dgaldrich) 31. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol logo (Jack Phillips) 32. 05:59 PM - Re: economy dimpletape (Tim Willis) 33. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol logo (Jack) 34. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: Cafepress (wayne@taildraggersinc.com) 35. 07:22 PM - Re: economy dimpletape (Dan Yocum) 36. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence (Dan Yocum) 37. 07:44 PM - Piet pic (skellytown flyer) 38. 09:40 PM - Re: Pietenpol logo (jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com) 39. 11:04 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 40. 11:10 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:20 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape First off, THANK YOU! Ryan for doing the scutwork of "Markle Mania" ensuring that a great idea was turned into action. Shad, the dimpletape was easy to work with, just follow the directions. His price is on the order form from his website. You have to order it the old fashioned way and send him a ck. I made sure both the tape and the prop were warm since it's freezing here, stuck it on, rubbed it down with the backside of a spoon and started her up. For a permanent installation, he recommends flowing some crazy glue around the edges, and you can spray a thin coat of urathane over it if you please. I'm going to just use the crazy glue. I'd varnish your prop first and if you want to varnish over the tape, install the tape before the final coat. I don't think you should fill the holes in the tape with too much varnish. I spoke with the guy, and he says you can do the same thing on a wood prop by using the tape as a pattern and dimple the prop surface using a 1/8th inch ball grinder in a dremel and doing halfway in. There's a picture of this on the site. Douwe ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:20 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo Does anybody have a good quality Pietenpol logo in jpeg or something similar? I want to have some old-fashioned white mechanics coveralls silscreened with a cool logo on the back. I found a neat old mobilgas logo, but then got to thinking about the classic Pietenpol signature. Douwe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:14 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo Douwe, This is all I have, not sure who to credit with the design Jack DSM Does anybody have a good quality Pietenpol logo in jpeg or something similar? I want to have some old-fashioned white mechanics coveralls silscreened with a cool logo on the back. I found a neat old mobilgas logo, but then got to thinking about the classic Pietenpol signature. Douwe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol logo From: "taildrags" There's always this one... -------- Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX Air Camper NX41CC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288731#288731 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bhplogo_752.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:34 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford Are there any other Listers out there using Dimpletape, and, if so, how much performance increase is realized? Cheers, Gardiner Mason ________________________________ From: Jeff Boatright Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 10:15:48 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford Ryan, Thanks for the link. If I wrap my head with it, will I think faster? I guess like MMO, it couldn't hurt! =-O Jeff Jeff, > >>You can get it straight from the person that invented it: > http://www.dimpletape.com/ > >>Make sure to check out the usage examples....you can tape your prop, >your wings, and you can give the leftover to your beret-wearing speed >skater friends, or you can apply it to the wing on your 1981 Ford >LTD. :P > Ryan -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:14 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence Pieti, I watched the videos Jeff B. put on Youtube of your talk at Brodhead last year. You mentioned that you kept your AoI of 2 degrees from the FC-10 and that you'd probably like to see it at 1 degree or less because at flat out cruise you've got to apply a significant (30-40lbs) amount of forward pressure on the stick. The question I have is this: did you build the angle of incidence into the spar orientation in the ribs or did you keep the spars at a 90 degree angle to the wing chord? Also, looking at the Riblett 612, I see that if you keep the front spar the same distance from the leading edge as the FC1-1, 6 inches, that dictates that the front spar and the rear spar will not be aligned, vertically - the front spar must be shifted down an inch or so to fit in the rib with respect to the aft spar. How did you address this? Did you even worry about it? Thanks, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence From: helspersew@aol.com Dan, Sure sounds like somebody is going full speed ahead on building another Pi et. :O) Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Yocum Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 9:18 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence Pieti, I watched the videos Jeff B. put on Youtube of your talk at Brodhead last year. You mentioned that you kept your AoI of 2 degrees from the FC-10 an d that you'd probably like to see it at 1 degree or less because at flat out cruise you've got to apply a significant (30-40lbs) amount of forward pressure on the stick. The question I have is this: did you build the angle of incidence into the spar orientation in the ribs or did you keep the spars at a 90 degree ang le to the wing chord? Also, looking at the Riblett 612, I see that if you keep the front spar th e same distance from the leading edge as the FC1-1, 6 inches, that dictate s that the front spar and the rear spar will not be aligned, vertically - the front spar must be shifted down an inch or so to fit in the rib with respect to the aft spar. How did you address this? Did you even worry abo ut it? Thanks, Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:56 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: was glue question now latex paint I know EXACTLY what is bothering Mike C...Mike P.!- I ask (bother) Mike e veryday with ridiculous questions about CHANGING this or CHANGING that as I build. Then, when he has glazed over from all the potential changes I plan to make, I hit him with the modified parts and self designed pieces I want to incorporate!- (I can almost see the headache come over him as I speak .) - I believe he beats himself up now with thoughts of:- -"That is an aweso me idea, I wish I would have thought of that."- "I want to do that too, b ut it would be to much work to change now."- "Mike P's plane is going to be so much better then mine...I need to copy his ideas."-- - I think that last "thought" is most accurate! - I keep telling him I will gladly let him fly mine when finished, but for so me reason, he seems to not be interested...? - For the record, I plan on using house paint. - DO NOT ARCHIVE! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:16 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) For those whom may have missed it, John's video is awesome! Very, well done and very funny! I have watched it a handfull of times now and think it is great. The link is below.- I am honored to be mentioned in the video as w ere many of the viewers of this list. - FYI, the Pin the Tail on Perez GAME will be for sale on my site if I ever f igure out how to make it. (This is NOT an invite for suggestions either) - http://gallery.me.com/johnnyskyrocket#100017 - - - ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:57 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: was glue question now latex paint I tend to use more Ibuprofen since Mike P. has been assigned to work in this area but I'm finding that Mike's modifications, ideas, and engineering abilities have caused me to RETHINK how I built my Pietenpol now. I'm thinking of even taking my plane apart and incorporating some of Mike's innovative ideas ! Actually Mike is really doing a FANTASTIC job of building a very, very high quality aircraft and has some really good ideas that he is incorporating into his plane. When Mike comes up with some far out modifications I keep telling him that making the first flight in the airplane you built is a once in a lifetime experience----you don't want to let anyone else fly your hand-built airplane because that is akin to letting your best man take your wife on your honeymoon ! I think I have him convinced to make his own first flight ! Latex paint for everyone ! Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:26 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol logo From: "Don Emch" Wow Douwe! Over the past week or so I was thinking exactly the same thing. The logo would need to look 'period correct'. I'll look around in some of my '30s aviation books and magazines to try to see some from those times. I know they were quite popular back then. Maybe the price would come down if we could get a few of them made up. Do you know where you can get a set of nice cotton white coveralls? Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288772#288772 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:33 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford Gardiner, Bill Rewey wrote an article in one of the last 3 BPA newsletters on his use of the dimpletape. He says he gets about 10% decrease in fuel consumption using it on his prop. If anyone's willing to put the stuff on their wing, I'd be interested in seeing what results they get. I reckon it would act quite a bit like VGs. Dan On 03/01/2010 08:35 AM, airlion wrote: > Are there any other Listers out there using Dimpletape, and, if so, how > much performance increase is realized? Cheers, Gardiner Mason > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Jeff Boatright > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sun, February 28, 2010 10:15:48 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford > > Ryan, > > Thanks for the link. If I wrap my head with it, will I think faster? I > guess like MMO, it couldn't hurt! =-O > > Jeff > > >> Jeff, >> >> You can get it straight from the person that invented it: >> http://www.dimpletape.com/ >> >> Make sure to check out the usage examples....you can tape your prop, >> your wings, and you can give the leftover to your beret-wearing speed >> skater friends, or you can apply it to the wing on your 1981 Ford LTD. :P >> Ryan > > > -- > > > Jeff Boatright > "Now let's think about this..." > > * > > > * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:58 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol logo I am VERY SLOWLY working on logos for our planes as well as homebuilts and experimentals. (this doesn't do you guys any good right now.) I have a couple prototypes in work, but they are full color and have a more modern "feel." (this does not help you guys either.) I made up some iron on transfers from these and was not happy with how that worked. (could have been the cheap paper I used) I could work on a more nostalgic looking logo, but I am not clear yet as to how to get it from Photo Shop on to a decal, iron on, silk screen, etc. with the quality I want. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:50 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford I am planning to use dimple tape on the prop and VGs on the wing. If it can be proven that dimple tape is just as good in this application, I would us e it. I think that would look a little nicer then the VGs. (How would both dimple tape and VGs work on the wing?) --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Dan Yocum wrote: From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford Gardiner, Bill Rewey wrote an article in one of the last 3 BPA newsletters on his use of the dimpletape.- He says he gets about 10% decrease in fuel consumption using it on his prop. If anyone's willing to put the stuff on their wing, I'd be interested in seeing what results they get. I reckon it would act quite a bit like VGs. Dan On 03/01/2010 08:35 AM, airlion wrote: > Are there any other Listers out there using Dimpletape, and, if so, how > much performance increase is realized? Cheers, Gardiner Mason > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Jeff Boatright > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sun, February 28, 2010 10:15:48 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford > > Ryan, > > Thanks for the link. If I wrap my head with it, will I think faster? I > guess like MMO, it couldn't hurt! =-O > > Jeff > > >> Jeff, >> >> You can get it straight from the person that invented it: >> http://www.dimpletape.com/ >> >> Make sure to check out the usage examples....you can tape your prop, >> your wings, and you can give the leftover to your beret-wearing speed >> skater friends, or you can apply it to the wing on your 1981 Ford LTD. : P >> Ryan > > > -- > > > Jeff Boatright > "Now let's think about this..." > > * > > > * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab- 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:26 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) Now that was very funny.I had no idea that Jim was doing that much damage t o the Germans.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Micha el Perez =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASe nt: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:40:49 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: John Hofmann' s tribute video (Markle)=0A=0A=0AFor those whom may have missed it, John's video is awesome! Very, well done and very funny! I have watched it a handf ull of times now and think it is great. The link is below.- I am honored to be mentioned in the video as were many of the viewers of this list.=0A =0AFYI, the Pin the Tail on Perez GAME will be for sale on my site if I eve r figure out how to make it. (This is NOT an invite for suggestions either) =============== ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford From: helspersew@aol.com I am going to put dimple tape on my Aerona. I will report in after I have had a chance to evaluate. Can that stuff be removed if I don't like it? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I am planning to use dimple tape on the prop and VGs on the wing. If it ca n be proven that dimple tape is just as good in this application, I would use it. I think that would look a little nicer then the VGs. (How would both dimple tape and VGs work on the wing?) --- > > > -- > > > > * > > > * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly b= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ==== ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:36 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford HOW WOULD THE TAPE WORK ON A WARP DRIVE? GARDINER ________________________________ From: Michael Perez Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 12:51:36 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford I am planning to use dimple tape on the prop and VGs on the wing. If it can be proven that dimple tape is just as good in this application, I would use it. I think that would look a little nicer then the VGs. (How would both dimple tape and VGs work on the wing?) --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Dan Yocum wrote: >From: Dan Yocum >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 12:25 PM > > > >Gardiner, > >Bill Rewey wrote an article in one of the last 3 BPA newsletters on his >use of the dimpletape. He says he gets about 10% decrease in fuel >consumption using it on his prop. > >If anyone's willing to put the stuff on their wing, I'd be interested in >seeing what results they get. I reckon it would act quite a bit like VGs. > >Dan > >On 03/01/2010 08:35 AM, airlion wrote: >> Are there any other Listers out there using Dimpletape, and, if so, how >> much performance increase is realized? Cheers, Gardiner Mason >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Jeff Boatright >> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Sun, February 28, 2010 10:15:48 PM >> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford >> >> Ryan, >> >> Thanks for the link. If I wrap my head with it, will I think faster? I >> guess like MMO, it couldn't hurt! =-O >> >> Jeff >> >> >>> Jeff, >>> >>> You can get it straight from the person that invented it: >>> http://www.dimpletape.com/ >>> >>> Make sure to check out the usage examples....you can tape your prop, >>> your wings, and you can give the leftover to your > beret-wearing speed >>> skater friends, or you can apply it to the wing on your 1981 Ford LTD. :P >>> Ryan >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Jeff Boatright >> "Now let's think about this..." >> >> * >> >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > >-- >Dan Yocum >Fermilab 630.840.6509 >yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov/ > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:05 AM PST US From: Wayne Bressler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cafepress I have not been as impressed with the quality of the direct printing offered by Cafepress. The colors just don't seem as sharp as I'd like. I almost have to wonder if silk screening wouldn't be better if you knew exactly how many to order. Prepaid, perhaps? Just a thought. Do not archive Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:16 PM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo Douwe. Here is the logo I'm going to put on the side of my plane. It's a modified version of the other logo that was posted and then I added some wings. The picture is of a sticker I made to see how I liked it ( and I've made a few minor modifications since that sticker). I made the sticker out of some vinyl scraps I had, so it's not the colors I will be doing when I make it for my plane but it gives you the idea. Mike Groah Tulare CA ________________________________ From: Douwe Blumberg Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 12:42:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo Does anybody have a good quality Pietenpol logo in jpeg or something similar? I want to have some old-fashioned white mechanics coveralls silscreened with a cool logo on the back. I found a neat old mobilgas logo, but then got to thinking about the classic Pietenpol signature. Douwe ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol logo From: "taildrags" Mike; I believe your logo would be exclusionary and would discriminate against the Grega GN-1 Aircamper builders/pilots/enthusiasts out there. In the interest of political correctness I suggest that you rework the logo to include everyone. Maybe if you used Cub wings on it... ;o) Just kidding, of course. do not archive -------- Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX Air Camper NX41CC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288818#288818 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: dimpletape on a Ford From: "skellytown flyer" I was asking a Tailwind flier friend about the dimple tape. and he said another Tailwind guy said he tried it and it made his airplane 100$ lighter. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288821#288821 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:23 PM PST US From: Wayne Bressler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo That looks way cool! Nice work! Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com On Mar 1, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Michael Groah wrote: > Douwe. > > Here is the logo I'm going to put on the side of my plane. It's a > modified version of the other logo that was posted and then I added > some wings. The picture is of a sticker I made to see how I liked > it ( and I've made a few minor modifications since that sticker). I > made the sticker out of some vinyl scraps I had, so it's not the > colors I will be doing when I make it for my plane but it gives you > the idea. > > Mike Groah > Tulare CA > > From: Douwe Blumberg > To: pietenpolgroup > Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 12:42:11 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo > > > <100_1166.jpg> ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:43 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford I look forward to seeing your results. I know several people have reported that dimple tape allowed more RPMs, but I wonder if that translates to more thrust. Since the propeller is an airfoil, and the tape has modified the airfoil and cut the drag, I assume that the lift (thrust) of the airfoil may have also been affected, but I'm not sure if it would be more lift or less. Flying, or a thrust test would certainly show this for sure. I'm not saying that I don't believe it will improve the thrust, just that it is unclear to ME. I have VGs on my Kolb and I'm sold on them. I hope the dimple tape works as well. Malcolm Morrison http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/ ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 1, 2010 1:34:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimpletape on a Ford I am going to put dimple tape on my Aerona. I will report in after I have had a chance to evaluate. Can that stuff be removed if I don't like it? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I am planning to use dimple tape on the prop and VGs on the wing. If it can be proven that dimple tape is just as good in this application, I would use it. I think that would look a little nicer then the VGs. (How would both dimple tape and VGs work on the wing?) --- > > > -- > > > > * > > > * > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov , http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly b= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - tion" target=_blank>http://www.====================== =================================== t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =================================== tp://forums.matronics.com =================================== _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:31 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: trailer From: "skellytown flyer" I don't know if there is anybody out there interested in an aircraft hauler or not. but I would sure like to sell mine to make room in my shop to start assembling my project I hauled home from Arizona in it after I bought it from D.J.- Trailer is in great condition and since it is skinned with aluminum I have kept it inside just to prevent a chance of hail dents.but I need the room worse. if you know anyone interested I'd sure appreciate an e-mail.it has also hauled a 2 place Challenger long wing.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288844#288844 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:33 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cafepress Wayne, I have to stick up for Cafepress, here. Maybe it's 'cuzz I don't have a discriminating eye, but I sent the link out to my family who were looking for birthday and Christmas ideas for me. They bought so many shirts and sweatshirts that John Hoffman scrapped his low & slow Pietenpol, and is looking for a Glasair or Legacy.at least that's what someone told me. I love my Pietenpol stuff.. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Bressler Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cafepress I have not been as impressed with the quality of the direct printing offered by Cafepress. The colors just don't seem as sharp as I'd like. I almost have to wonder if silk screening wouldn't be better if you knew exactly how many to order. Prepaid, perhaps? Just a thought. Do not archive Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:47 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) Michael, Thanks for re-posting that! Somehow I managed to delete it and miss the laugh.. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:41 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: John Hofmann's tribute video (Markle) For those whom may have missed it, John's video is awesome! Very, well done and very funny! I have watched it a handfull of times now and think it is great. The link is below. I am honored to be mentioned in the video as were many of the viewers of this list. FYI, the Pin the Tail on Perez GAME will be for sale on my site if I ever figure out how to make it. (This is NOT an invite for suggestions either) http://gallery.me.com/johnnyskyrocket#100017 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:31 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence From: "dgaldrich" I'm building a 612 wing and have just started doing the ribs with the spars perpendicular to the chord line. You are correct that the front spar is lower than the original but if the chord line is kept at the same angle of incidence with respect to the fuselage as the original airfoil, then (I think) it should be close. I seem to remember somewhere that a 5 degree angle of incidence is a good place to start. My rusty math skills (and a real calculator) indicate that a 1 inch change on the cabanes gives about 2 degrees change on the angle of incidence so the original plans recommendation of 2 inches (IIRC) difference makes mathematical sense and approximates the 5 degree wag. Since it'll be a couple of years before my airplane flies, I'll be interested to see what happens with others. Dave Aldrich Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288846#288846 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:58 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: economy dimpletape Group, I have some mocck up dimple tape on the prop now. I sliced down some of the do-it-yourselfer's adheasive perferated drywall tape. It is the stuff with all the little round holes in it, and its a 50ft roll, 2 inches wide and about $5 worth would probably do every pietenpol that is flying. I might try this stuff and se how it works, just have to use some CA (model airplane super glue) glue to hold it on, and coat it after it is done because it is just a heavy paper. Just have to be careful not to fill in all the holes with varnish. Shad ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:13 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence--No, no, TWO DEGREES!!! TWO DEGREES!!! >From my memory, the original prints call for a 2 degree angle of incidence. My math at the time showed two degrees to be a few thousandths of an inch less than a one (1) inch difference in the height of the cabanes. Many conversations and a few posts on this board have referred to the front cabane being one inch higher than the rear. Moreover, I have measured a few at Brodhead and elsewhere, and believe that they were all very close to a one inch difference in height. Mine is 1 inch taller. A discussion of alternative and benefits may be warranted, but let's agree on the original benchmark. Let me know if I am wrong. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: dgaldrich >Sent: Mar 1, 2010 6:52 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence > > >I'm building a 612 wing and have just started doing the ribs with the spars perpendicular to the chord line. You are correct that the front spar is lower than the original but if the chord line is kept at the same angle of incidence with respect to the fuselage as the original airfoil, then (I think) it should be close. > >I seem to remember somewhere that a 5 degree angle of incidence is a good place to start. My rusty math skills (and a real calculator) indicate that a 1 inch change on the cabanes gives about 2 degrees change on the angle of incidence so the original plans recommendation of 2 inches (IIRC) difference makes mathematical sense and approximates the 5 degree wag. > >Since it'll be a couple of years before my airplane flies, I'll be interested to see what happens with others. > >Dave Aldrich > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288846#288846 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence--No, no, TWO DEGREES!!! From: "dgaldrich" Hi Tim Hey, at least our math is the same!!! Can't say the same for my memory. I could have saved the aggravation by walking out to the garage but noooooooooo, it had to be from dim memory. At least someone is reading. I agree that we need to start from known benchmarks and 1 inch/2 degrees sounds like it would work. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288855#288855 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:11 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol logo How about putting a snowflake on it? -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of taildrags Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol logo Mike; I believe your logo would be exclusionary and would discriminate against the Grega GN-1 Aircamper builders/pilots/enthusiasts out there. In the interest of political correctness I suggest that you rework the logo to include everyone. Maybe if you used Cub wings on it... ;o) Just kidding, of course. do not archive -------- Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX Air Camper NX41CC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288818#288818 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:02 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: economy dimpletape Shad, On a serious note, how close does it look to the expensive stuff? On a lighter note, you can always "coat it after it is done" with drywall mud ;) Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: shad bell >Sent: Mar 1, 2010 7:03 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: economy dimpletape > > > >Group, I have some mocck up dimple tape on the prop now. I sliced down some of the do-it-yourselfer's adheasive perferated drywall tape. It is the stuff with all the little round holes in it, and its a 50ft roll, 2 inches wide and about $5 worth would probably do every pietenpol that is flying. I might try this stuff and se how it works, just have to use some CA (model airplane super glue) glue to hold it on, and coat it after it is done because it is just a heavy paper. Just have to be careful not to fill in all the holes with varnish. > >Shad > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:07 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo Mike, It looks great, nice work! Could you share a digital version? Thanks, DSM Douwe. Here is the logo I'm going to put on the side of my plane. It's a modified version of the other logo that was posted and then I added some wings. The picture is of a sticker I made to see how I liked it ( and I've made a few minor modifications since that sticker). I made the sticker out of some vinyl scraps I had, so it's not the colors I will be doing when I make it for my plane but it gives you the idea. Mike Groah Tulare CA _____ From: Douwe Blumberg Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 12:42:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:17 PM PST US From: "wayne@taildraggersinc.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cafepress Gary, Fair enough. I've bought several of my own designs, and few from other people, and it seems like the simple, one color stuff looks better than the multi-color printing. I have a Sigg bottle that is PERFECT, but the printing isn't dishwasher safe. I have a couple of T-shirts that look great (one or two colors), but the ones I did my wife's business looked faded right out of the "box" (multi-color, like a picture). I've also done stickers and magnets, and those normally look pretty good. Screen printing tends to look more vibrant and cleaner, in my opinion (and that's all that it is... Just an opinion). :) -Wayne Gary Boothe wrote: > > Wayne, > > I have to stick up for Cafepress, here. Maybe its cuzz I dont have > a discriminating eye, but I sent the link out to my family who were > looking for birthday and Christmas ideas for me. They bought so many > shirts and sweatshirts that John Hoffman scrapped his low & slow > Pietenpol, and is looking for a Glasair or Legacyat least thats what > someone told me. I love my Pietenpol stuff. > > Gary Boothe > > Cool, CA > > Pietenpol > > WW Corvair Conversion > > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > > 18 ribs done > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Wayne Bressler > *Sent:* Monday, March 01, 2010 11:26 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cafepress > > I have not been as impressed with the quality of the direct printing > offered by Cafepress. The colors just don't seem as sharp as I'd like. > I almost have to wonder if silk screening wouldn't be better if you > knew exactly how many to order. Prepaid, perhaps? > > Just a thought. > > Do not archive > > Wayne Bressler Jr. > > Taildraggers, Inc. > > taildraggersinc.com > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > ** > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:05 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: economy dimpletape You can get some vinyl dimple tape from a good quality sign shop. Cheers, Dan On 03/01/2010 07:03 PM, shad bell wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: shad bell > > > Group, I have some mocck up dimple tape on the prop now. I sliced down some of the do-it-yourselfer's adheasive perferated drywall tape. It is the stuff with all the little round holes in it, and its a 50ft roll, 2 inches wide and about $5 worth would probably do every pietenpol that is flying. I might try this stuff and se how it works, just have to use some CA (model airplane super glue) glue to hold it on, and coat it after it is done because it is just a heavy paper. Just have to be careful not to fill in all the holes with varnish. > > Shad > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:06 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 and angle of incidence Dave, I think you're remembering that the zero lift angle for the FC-10 is -5 degrees. The Riblett zero lift AoI is -3.9 degrees. This is all from the discussion here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226498#226498 Pieti said he kept the Riblett AoI to be 2 degrees, the same as what he had for the FC-10 wing. Did you guys build the AoI into the ribs or keep it at 90 degrees to the chord? Thanks, Dan On 03/01/2010 06:52 PM, dgaldrich wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "dgaldrich" > > I'm building a 612 wing and have just started doing the ribs with the spars perpendicular to the chord line. You are correct that the front spar is lower than the original but if the chord line is kept at the same angle of incidence with respect to the fuselage as the original airfoil, then (I think) it should be close. > > I seem to remember somewhere that a 5 degree angle of incidence is a good place to start. My rusty math skills (and a real calculator) indicate that a 1 inch change on the cabanes gives about 2 degrees change on the angle of incidence so the original plans recommendation of 2 inches (IIRC) difference makes mathematical sense and approximates the 5 degree wag. > > Since it'll be a couple of years before my airplane flies, I'll be interested to see what happens with others. > > Dave Aldrich > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288846#288846 > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:46 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet pic From: "skellytown flyer" here is a great story about P-51's and their pilots but it does have a nice Piet pic at the bottom so you might want to look. there are some other great shots as well. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/off-topic/2400756-oshkosh-2009-wwii-pilot-reunited-with-his-airplane.html Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288879#288879 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo From: jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com Greetings all, if there is enough interest I will burn the screens, and print the Tee shirt/coveralls, Jake "Jack" Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com 03/01/2010 04:39 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@matronics.com To cc Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol logo Douwe, This is all I have, not sure who to credit with the design Jack DSM Does anybody have a good quality Pietenpol logo in jpeg or something similar? I want to have some old-fashioned white mechanics coveralls silscreened with a cool logo on the back. I found a neat old mobilgas logo, but then got to thinking about the classic Pietenpol signature. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL abs Email Security System. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:20 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. 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To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:47 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.