---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/07/10: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:50 AM - Re: Coverall Comps (mr-fix-all) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: dimple tape (Kip and Beth Gardner) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: Wood (Pastor Mike Townsley) 4. 05:54 AM - Re: dimple tape (skellytown flyer) 5. 07:01 AM - Center Strut Fittings (Jack) 6. 07:37 AM - Re: Center Strut Fittings (Gary Boothe) 7. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: Coverall Comps (Gene Rambo) 8. 07:50 AM - wing placement (Gene Rambo) 9. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: dimple tape (Jeff Boatright) 10. 09:08 AM - Re: Construction Photos (Catdesigns) 11. 09:09 AM - "A Masterpiece Pietenpol" (ldmill) 12. 09:39 AM - Re: wing placement (Richard Schreiber) 13. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Coverall Comps (Tim Willis) 14. 10:11 AM - Re: wing placement (Jack Phillips) 15. 10:32 AM - Re: wing placement (Tim Willis) 16. 10:38 AM - Re: wing placement (Ben Charvet) 17. 01:00 PM - Re: wing placement (Gene Rambo) 18. 01:01 PM - Re: wing placement (Gene Rambo) 19. 02:12 PM - Re: wing placement (Peter W Johnson) 20. 02:26 PM - Re: wing placement (Jack Phillips) 21. 03:38 PM - Re: wing placement (Ben Charvet) 22. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: Coverall Comps (Dan Yocum) 23. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: dimple tape (airlion) 24. 05:23 PM - high sink rate power off (shad bell) 25. 06:14 PM - Re: high sink rate power off (airlion) 26. 06:56 PM - coverall project (Douwe Blumberg) 27. 06:56 PM - Re: wing placement (Gene Rambo) 28. 07:32 PM - dimple tape (Oscar Zuniga) 29. 07:41 PM - Re: First Major Milestone (Ray Krause) 30. 07:59 PM - Re: coverall project (Jeff Boatright) 31. 08:01 PM - Re: First Major Milestone (Gary Boothe) 32. 08:15 PM - Re: coverall project (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 33. 08:23 PM - Re: "A Masterpiece Pietenpol" (Dick N) 34. 08:56 PM - Re: First Major Milestone (K5YAC) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:16 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps From: "mr-fix-all" 4th and final unless someone has other suggestions. Jake -------- "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289471#289471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet4_205.pdf ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:45 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: dimple tape Gardinier & Ben, I envy you guys - hope it continues to go well. Ben - $3 trim system? Cheapskates everywhere (i. e. ME) want to know! Details? Kip Gardner On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Ben Charvet wrote: > > > I too am flying off my hours. Today was my first test of the $3 > elevator trim system I installed yesterday. Prior to this I was > holding a lot of back pressure for level flight. I also added 1/2 > inch of offset to the rudder. Now I can fly hands off for a few > seconds while fumbling around changing frequencies, etc. Today was > pancake EAA pancake breakfast day for my chapter. When it came > time to land the wind was blowing 8 kts right down the paved > runway. I basically flew it right down to the pavement at 65 mph > and about 1000 rpm. In spite of the large audience by carrying a > little power I was able to do a nice wheel landing that was heard > more than felt, pulled the throttle, pushed the stick forward, and > still only rolled out about 150 ft. My flight advisor suggested > wheel landings, and I think they are best done with a little power on. > > Only 19 hours to go! > > Ben Charvet > Mims Fl > > On 3/6/2010 7:04 PM, airlion wrote: >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: airlion >> >> I am flying my hours off and after 5 hours I am really impressed >> on how my ship handles. It really likes 85 mph at 2500rpm. and >> will easily go to 95 RPM at 2900 rpm. On final approach to >> landing I am trying to get used the sink rate for landing. I like >> to land power off like I was taught., but i FIND THAT IS NOT >> POSSIBLE. I have been reading about dimple tape as a somewhat >> solution. Have any of you experienced pietenpollers tried this and >> does it work? Thanks guys, Gardiner Mason >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood From: Pastor Mike Townsley Thanks Cliff, that is what I would of guessed. Mike Townsley On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Clif Dawson wrote: > > The longerons and wing rib caps are carefully chosen > trim material from lumber yards. I was extremely > picky so I made regular rounds to five yards. The > spar material is very unusual and only comes in 5" > and 6" widths. I found it in a higher end place that > carries better materials usually. > > The longerons are 1 1/16" square stuff that is used as > a backing when building up fancy, complicated > moldings. > > Clif > > >> Cliff, >> Where did you go to find that wood? >> Thanks >> Mike Townsley >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: dimple tape From: "skellytown flyer" Gardiner I sure enjoy reading about your test flights as it keeps my interest in finishing up. What do you think the main difficulty is with power off landings-lack of directional control? I was wondering if you have done any gap seals on your rudder or elevators. thanks for the updates,and I just yesterday got back to fabricating my cowling around the Corvair. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289484#289484 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:49 AM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center Strut Fittings Good morning, Should I cut them per plans or lengthen a bit? Thanks! Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:05 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Center Strut Fittings Jack, Mike Cuy suggested cutting all fittings longer. Mine are =BD=94 longer. It really helps in getting the cables hooked up. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 6:58 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center Strut Fittings Good morning, Should I cut them per plans or lengthen a bit? Thanks! Jack DSM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:02 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps Mobile Oil is still in business, so you should be careful how you use their logo, they may take offense! As for the overalls, I would personally prefer that the logo look more like something that might have been worn by a worker at a factory, rather than a tribute to Mr. Peitenpol. Just my 2 cents, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: mr-fix-all To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 7:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps > 4th and final unless someone has other suggestions. Jake -------- "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289471#289471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet4_205.pdf http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:50 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:32 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: dimple tape Gardiner, Power-off landings can be made, but they did take a lot of practice (for me, anyway). I fly my pattern at 60 mph through final, then back to 55 over the fence, and it all seems to work out. This was true even before adding the VGs. However, when I first started flying the Piet, I always used a little power. The power-off sink rate can get pretty high at these speeds, about 800 fpm according to our VSI. HTH, Jeff -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Construction Photos From: "Catdesigns" Kevin Nice work Kevin. Sorry you could not get in touch with me. I tried to respond to you emails about sending pictures for the website but evidently you never got the replies. I send replies sent to the website from my Catdesigns(at)att(dot)net email address so I can avoid getting a lot of Spam email downloaded to my computer. Maybe your security setting didn't let my replies through or you didn't recognize the response. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I would be happy add you photos to the Westcoastpiet website if you still want to send them. You can email them to me at the above address or you can send them on CD or DVD. Email is fine, if you can handle the large files. Chris -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289510#289510 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:38 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: "A Masterpiece Pietenpol" From: "ldmill" It's a damp and foggy morning here in the lazy snowbound countryside of Iowa, a light quiet mist drizzling down. The fog is so thick that it muffles out sounds, you cant see the old Lincoln highway a stones throw north. A morning meant for memories and nostalgia, the tinney sounds of "Sentimental Journey" quietly coming from some ratted out speakers at the back of the shop. The grey and very old shorthair is just lying on her rug in front of the heater, grunting and staring at me. Yes, it is time to break out the much dog-eared Feb 2008 Sport Aviation rag and review the article on Dick Ns radial Piet. What a great way to end the week. Lorin -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX Pietenpol next up Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289512#289512 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:19 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Good question Gene. I am at the same point and have the same concerns. Rick Schreiber ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: 3/7/2010 9:54:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:27 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps I like your original (#2) better than #3 or #4. However, they all seem "busy"-- too many words. I'd like to see a version with the wings and just "Air Camper" in the style of #2, and with "Air Camper" smaller-- nearly fitting within the wings. Maybe "Air Camper" could fit into an oval, perhaps with "Air" over "Camper"? It is hard to tell how it would look until it is close to done. Also, the yellow sort of fades into the background. Red would offer more vibrant color and contrasting shade. This is just me. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: mr-fix-all >Sent: Mar 6, 2010 9:25 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps > > >Here is my 3rd spin > >Jake > >-------- >"Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289447#289447 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet3_912.pdf > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:21 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Gene, I moved my wing back a total of 4". I had already planned to move it back 2-1/2" but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2" was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesn't take much. One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about 1/16" at the bottom. My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you would need, then cut the hole about 1/8" bigger than that. You can keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. One word of caution - Make the holes no bigger than than need to be (with that 1/8" gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the hole the more rain water you will get in. Some water will get in anyway, because the holes have to be big enough to allow access to the bolts holding the strut to the fuselage. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:15 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Jack, Those are tight fits. Good work. Until someone has tried to fit the sheet metal as closely as you have, they just have no idea how detailed it can be. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: Mar 7, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Gene, I moved my wing back a total of 4. I had already planned to move it back 2-1/2 but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2 was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesnt take much. One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about 1/16 at the bottom. My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you would need, then cut the hole about 1/8 bigger than that. You can keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. One word of caution Make the holes no bigger than than need to be (with that 1/8 gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the hole the more rain water you will get in. Some water will get in anyway, because the holes have to be big enough to allow access to the bolts holding the strut to the fuselage. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement My experience was similar to Jack's. Another thing to consider is when you move the wing back you need to enlarge the holes the aileron cables go through, both in the sheet metal and underneath. Also it came close to interfering with my windshields that were already mounted. In spite of lengthening my motor mounts I ended up moving the wing back 4 inches. I had to trim the sheet metal around the cabanes after the wing was already installed., and had to lengthen two of the cross brace wires for the cabanes also. I waited until the preliminary weight and balance before making the cross cables for the lift struts, thankfully. Even after my first few flights, I can see how this project is far from finished, but as Mike Cuy said, it has just entered a new dimension. Ben Charvet 6 hours on the Hobbs On 3/7/2010 1:06 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: > > Gene, > > I moved my wing back a total of 4". I had already planned to move it > back 2-1/2" but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2" > was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left > some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesn't take much. > One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about > 1/16" at the bottom. > > My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you > would need, then cut the hole about 1/8" bigger than that. You can > keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not > that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if > you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. > > One word of caution -- Make the holes no bigger than than need to be > (with that 1/8" gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with > the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the > hole the > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:06 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement I'm sorry guys, but you are not answering the question. Jack, you moved the wing back 4" WHEN? AFTER you flew it? Did you do a final weight and balance before you made your sheet metal? If not, when did you do a weight and balance? several times at different points in construction?? I have no idea how far back I "think I need" to move the cabanes, where does that dimension come from? The entire question is directed at not making the holes any bigger than they have to be, and NOT, hopefully, trimming them after first flight, which requires repainting, etc at the least, and remaking the metal at the worst. Please help, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 1:06 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Gene, I moved my wing back a total of 4". I had already planned to move it back 2-1/2" but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2" was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesn't take much. One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about 1/16" at the bottom. My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you would need, then cut the hole about 1/8" bigger than that. You can keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. One word of caution - Make the holes no bigger than than need to be (with that 1/8" gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the hole the more rain water you will get in. Some water will get in anyway, because the holes have to be big enough to allow access to the bolts holding the strut to the fuselage. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:47 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:13 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Ben, I did not think of listing the aileron cables because I am running my cables like the original, out the sides and up the struts, not criss-crossing and going inside the wing. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Charvet To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement My experience was similar to Jack's. Another thing to consider is when you move the wing back you need to enlarge the holes the aileron cables go through, both in the sheet metal and underneath. Also it came close to interfering with my windshields that were already mounted. In spite of lengthening my motor mounts I ended up moving the wing back 4 inches. I had to trim the sheet metal around the cabanes after the wing was already installed., and had to lengthen two of the cross brace wires for the cabanes also. I waited until the preliminary weight and balance before making the cross cables for the lift struts, thankfully. Even after my first few flights, I can see how this project is far from finished, but as Mike Cuy said, it has just entered a new dimension. Ben Charvet 6 hours on the Hobbs On 3/7/2010 1:06 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: Gene, I moved my wing back a total of 4". I had already planned to move it back 2-1/2" but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2" was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesn't take much. One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about 1/16" at the bottom. My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you would need, then cut the hole about 1/8" bigger than that. You can keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. One word of caution - Make the holes no bigger than than need to be (with that 1/8" gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the hole the http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:36 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Gene, I would recommend a quick W&B check before you do the sheet metal around the cockpits. I didn't and ended up moving the wing backwards to get the W&B correct. It left big holes for the aileron control cables and added more screw holes for the windscreen. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Monday, 8 March 2010 2:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:01 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Sorry Gene, I misunderstood your question. I did a preliminary weight and balance on an Excel spreadsheet (attached, see "Pietenpol Weight Balance") when I first began assembling the airplane, making my best guesses (which turned out to be not very accurate) of the weight of fabric and paint and any other components not yet installed. As I added components I measured the arm and the weight of eac component and added them to the spreadsheet. This weighing was done with bathroom scales. I used this spreadsheet to estimate how far back my wing needed to be. Then when I moved the ariplane to the airport and assembled it for flight I weighed it again with certified aircraft scales and found that I needed to move the wing back another inch to keep the CG forward of 35% of the chord when flying solo with a full fuel tank. I have also attached that spreadsheet ("Pietenpol Actual Weight Balance 2") I went back and reviewed my numbers just now. Initially I had the wing 2.68" aft of vertical. After doing the actual weight and balance I moved it back to 3.75" aft of vertical, not 4". However, 4" would probably have been better since the CG is at 35% of the chord as it is. It IS a bit sensitive in pitch but other than that I've seen no problems with the CG that far aft. I have not tried to spin the airplane and don't intend to. As I recall I did have to trim the holes a bit, but just did it with a Dremel tool and touched up the edges with paint. Feel free to use the spreadsheets and plug in the numbers for your weights and moment-arms. I chose to use the firewall as the datum, so anything forward of the firewall must have a negative value for its arm. Any items I have listed that you don't have, such as radios or transponders, just plug in their weight as "0.00". What can be learned from doing such a preliminary weight and balance? Well, I learned that fabric and paint (particularly polyurethane paint) weighs A LOT more than I thought. I'll bet I've got 60 lbs of paint on that airplane. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement I'm sorry guys, but you are not answering the question. Jack, you moved the wing back 4" WHEN? AFTER you flew it? Did you do a final weight and balance before you made your sheet metal? If not, when did you do a weight and balance? several times at different points in construction?? I have no idea how far back I "think I need" to move the cabanes, where does that dimension come from? The entire question is directed at not making the holes any bigger than they have to be, and NOT, hopefully, trimming them after first flight, which requires repainting, etc at the least, and remaking the metal at the worst. Please help, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 1:06 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Gene, I moved my wing back a total of 4". I had already planned to move it back 2-1/2" but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2" was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesn't take much. One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about 1/16" at the bottom. My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you would need, then cut the hole about 1/8" bigger than that. You can keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. One word of caution - Make the holes no bigger than than need to be (with that 1/8" gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the hole the more rain water you will get in. Some water will get in anyway, because the holes have to be big enough to allow access to the bolts holding the strut to the fuselage. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:03 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement I can't imagine why you would move the wing fore or aft after the first flight. The reason to move it at all is to get your weight and balance to work out, and that is definitely done before the first flight. Unfortunately you can't do your weight and balance until everything is covered, painted and assembled, so as Jack suggested allow enough room to do some adjusting if needed then. I did some trimming of my sheet metal after it was painted with aviation snips and touched up the edges with no problem Ben On 3/7/2010 3:56 PM, Gene Rambo wrote: > I'm sorry guys, but you are not answering the question. Jack, you > moved the wing back 4" WHEN? AFTER you flew it? Did you do a final > weight and balance before you made your sheet metal? If not, when did > you do a weight and balance? several times at different points in > construction?? > I have no idea how far back I "think I need" to move the cabanes, > where does that dimension come from? The entire question is directed > at not making the holes any bigger than they have to be, and NOT, > hopefully, trimming them after first flight, which requires > repainting, etc at the least, and remaking the metal at the worst. > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:26 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps Good point. Whilst meandering around the inter-tubes, I found the following aviation fuel related logos that are generally period specific. Take a look: http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/Jenney/Jenney+Aero+Solvenized+1935-40+Gill.jpg.html?g2_enterAlbum=0 http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/Kendall/Kendall+Gasoline+1926+to+1935+15in+metal.jpg.html?g2_enterAlbum=0 http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/Tidewater+Associated/Flying+A+Gasoline+1946+to+1956+Gill.jpg.html?g2_enterAlbum=0 http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/album05/Smith_o_lene_Aviation_1940_s.jpg.html http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/Phillips+66/Phillips+77+Aviation+1937+to+1939+glass.JPG.html (though Jack would like that one too much...) http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/Beacon/Beacon+Aviation+1930s+glass.jpg.html http://www.gaspumps.info/gallery/v/globes/Kanotex/Kanotex+Aviation+1930+to+1939+ripple.jpg.html Cheers, Dan On 03/07/2010 09:43 AM, Gene Rambo wrote: > Mobile Oil is still in business, so you should be careful how you use > their logo, they may take offense! > As for the overalls, I would personally prefer that the logo look more > like something that might have been worn by a worker at a factory, > rather than a tribute to Mr. Peitenpol. > Just my 2 cents, > Gene > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* mr-fix-all > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Sunday, March 07, 2010 7:47 AM > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Re: Coverall Comps > > > > > 4th and final unless someone has other suggestions. > > Jake > > -------- > "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't > matter, and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289471#289471 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.mnbsp; Features Chat, > http://www.matnbsp; via > the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================ > > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:20 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: dimple tape Raymond, I have gap seals on both the elevator and rudder and the airplane flies beautifly..I am just trying to find out if dimple tape will help on the sink rate prior to touchdown. Gardiner ----- Original Message ---- From: skellytown flyer Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 8:50:21 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: dimple tape Gardiner I sure enjoy reading about your test flights as it keeps my interest in finishing up. What do you think the main difficulty is with power off landings-lack of directional control? I was wondering if you have done any gap seals on your rudder or elevators. thanks for the updates,and I just yesterday got back to fabricating my cowling around the Corvair. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289484#289484 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:36 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: high sink rate power off If I had to guess, I would say not much is going to help the power off sink rate, short of lightening the airplane, longer wings or different airfoil. You will get used to the sink rate, and learn to adjust your landing paterns accordingly. It took me a few hrs to get the feel of the piet, and now after 200 or so, when I fly a cub or champ etc etc they feel like a sailplane in comparison. The clipped wing Cubs are about the same feel as a piet. I have made a couple engine out landings (Yes these were intensional you Corvair haters!, Dad's was not). I climbed to 2000agl and shut her down over the airport and flew a close pattern and aimed for the halfway point of the R/W. You defintely must keep the nose down to keep speed up, and I carried a little more A/S to the touchdown to make sure I had enough authority to flare out. It is really kind of fun, the grass was wet with condensation and with no engine noise I could hear the tires whisp through the grass. Any way enjoy the airplane, feel it out and you'll love it more and more each flight. Shad ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:37 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: high sink rate power off Thank you Shad. Like you say, It takes a lot of getting used to. I am flying my cessna 140 which is like a glider and the Piet which is another airplane altogether. Believe it or not. the piet is more hands off then the cessna. What a docile bird it is. Cheers, Gardiner Mason PS, I have 6 hours on it now and it is time to change the oil and check for intake leaks. All temps are in the green. ----- Original Message ---- From: shad bell Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 8:14:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: high sink rate power off If I had to guess, I would say not much is going to help the power off sink rate, short of lightening the airplane, longer wings or different airfoil. You will get used to the sink rate, and learn to adjust your landing paterns accordingly. It took me a few hrs to get the feel of the piet, and now after 200 or so, when I fly a cub or champ etc etc they feel like a sailplane in comparison. The clipped wing Cubs are about the same feel as a piet. I have made a couple engine out landings (Yes these were intensional you Corvair haters!, Dad's was not). I climbed to 2000agl and shut her down over the airport and flew a close pattern and aimed for the halfway point of the R/W. You defintely must keep the nose down to keep speed up, and I carried a little more A/S to the touchdown to make sure I had enough authority to flare out. It is really kind of fun, the grass was wet with condensation and with no engine noise I could hear the tires whisp through the grass. Any way enjoy the airplane, feel it out and you'll love it more and more each flight. Shad ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:43 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: coverall project Hey gang, Just got back from a business trip and it looks like there are a lot of fellows interested in some coveralls, but not a lot of agreement about a logo. I haven't been able to give this much thought as my wife collapsed today in church and is in the hospital now while the neurologists are trying to figure out what in the world is going on. So... with that and three kids at home, work, etc, etc... I'm feeling like a one-legged-man in a kicking contest right about now. However, when things cool down here, I'll give it some thought and see if I can come up with a plan that seems workable. Maybe we just all get our own coveralls and send it to the silkscreeners ourselves (Jake??) or maybe they come to me and I'll forward them along all at once, I don' t know. Sounds like an old-timey Pietenpol logo is in order, but I really am attracted to a more generic one as well as it's just a touch more authentic for the era. Any prayers for Marci are appreciated!! Douwe ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:43 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Thanks, Jack, that is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I have always been particularly critical of weight and balance prior to completion for the exact reason you give, the fabric/paint weighs a LOT more than most people think, but this must be one case where it is called for. I am ready to build sheet metal, but not ready to mount wing, so a W&B right now is not possible. Not sure where to go right now, but desperately trying to finish in time for Brodhead. I'll probably build and slip roll the metal but not cut any strut or cable holes just yet. Gene (making sheet metal, ready to cover fuselage, wing finished but not varnished (winter caught it before I could), no wing struts cut to length yet) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 5:21 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Sorry Gene, I misunderstood your question. I did a preliminary weight and balance on an Excel spreadsheet (attached, see "Pietenpol Weight Balance") when I first began assembling the airplane, making my best guesses (which turned out to be not very accurate) of the weight of fabric and paint and any other components not yet installed. As I added components I measured the arm and the weight of eac component and added them to the spreadsheet. This weighing was done with bathroom scales. I used this spreadsheet to estimate how far back my wing needed to be. Then when I moved the ariplane to the airport and assembled it for flight I weighed it again with certified aircraft scales and found that I needed to move the wing back another inch to keep the CG forward of 35% of the chord when flying solo with a full fuel tank. I have also attached that spreadsheet ("Pietenpol Actual Weight Balance 2") I went back and reviewed my numbers just now. Initially I had the wing 2.68" aft of vertical. After doing the actual weight and balance I moved it back to 3.75" aft of vertical, not 4". However, 4" would probably have been better since the CG is at 35% of the chord as it is. It IS a bit sensitive in pitch but other than that I've seen no problems with the CG that far aft. I have not tried to spin the airplane and don't intend to. As I recall I did have to trim the holes a bit, but just did it with a Dremel tool and touched up the edges with paint. Feel free to use the spreadsheets and plug in the numbers for your weights and moment-arms. I chose to use the firewall as the datum, so anything forward of the firewall must have a negative value for its arm. Any items I have listed that you don't have, such as radios or transponders, just plug in their weight as "0.00". What can be learned from doing such a preliminary weight and balance? Well, I learned that fabric and paint (particularly polyurethane paint) weighs A LOT more than I thought. I'll bet I've got 60 lbs of paint on that airplane. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 3:57 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing placement I'm sorry guys, but you are not answering the question. Jack, you moved the wing back 4" WHEN? AFTER you flew it? Did you do a final weight and balance before you made your sheet metal? If not, when did you do a weight and balance? several times at different points in construction?? I have no idea how far back I "think I need" to move the cabanes, where does that dimension come from? The entire question is directed at not making the holes any bigger than they have to be, and NOT, hopefully, trimming them after first flight, which requires repainting, etc at the least, and remaking the metal at the worst. Please help, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 1:06 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wing placement Gene, I moved my wing back a total of 4". I had already planned to move it back 2-1/2" but the final weight and balance indicated another 1-1/2" was necessary. When I did the sheet metal around the cabanes I left some slop in the holes to allow some movement. It doesn't take much. One inch of movement at the top of the cabanes only requires about 1/16" at the bottom. My advice would be to move the cabanes as far aft as you think you would need, then cut the hole about 1/8" bigger than that. You can keep it pretty tight to the strut. Cutting it after the fact is not that hard (I had to do a little cutting) but putting the metal back if you cut the hole too big is farily difficult. One word of caution - Make the holes no bigger than than need to be (with that 1/8" gap mentioned above). Apart from looking better with the cowling fitting fairly tightly around the struts, the bigger the hole the more rain water you will get in. Some water will get in anyway, because the holes have to be big enough to allow access to the bolts holding the strut to the fuselage. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:47 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing placement For those of you already flying, how many of you have had to move your wing fore/aft after the first flights? If not, what extra precautions did you take to make sure that you had the strut and roll wire holes in the correct locations? I am making sheet metal, and I am wondering what I can do to make sure that I get the locations correct the first time and not have to remake sheet metal if I have to move the wing. Gene http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:57 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: dimple tape Gardiner wrote: >On final approach to landing I am trying to >get used to the sink rate for landing. I like >to land power off like I was taught., but I >FIND THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. A couple of observations. (1) You can't fly a big, wide, square pattern in the Piet unless you keep the power on all the way till you get ready to turn base, and maybe even past that. There really is no reason to fly a big open pattern anyway, unless you fly out of a busy field where everybody has to play follow the leader. (2) The best approach to fly after you come abeam the numbers on downwind is a "circling approach"... a semicircle that starts when you pull the power and ends when you turn towards the numbers. And as soon as you pull carb heat and power, the airplane should be starting a descending arc that ends at the numbers. If you pull power on downwind abeam the numbers and think you can continue straight ahead for a quarter mile, then turn and fly a quarter mile square base leg, then turn a square final (all with power off), you're probably wrong. The Piet will start coming down as soon as you pull the power. I learned to fly in a J-3 and was taught power-off landings, but the Cub will glide pretty nicely on those long wings while the Piet will head for home when the power comes off. Once you figure the airplane out though, you'll see why this characteristic is so endearing. You can land it almost anywhere. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:43 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone I would really appreciate some details on this jig, if at all possible. Any references? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 7:13 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone > > Nice pics, Mark, thanks! I am still a big fan of your wing building jig. > That'll work great for me and my cramped work area. How about posting some > more in-process pics? > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > 18 ribs done > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:41 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone > > > I'm not sure if this is actually a milestone, but I'm feeling pretty good > about it. I took my left wing panel off the jig today and trial fit the > aileron. Today was one of the first really nice days we have had in a > long > time, so I took my wing panel outside and set it on saw horses so I could > look it over in the sun light. It all looks good so far. I still need to > install control pulleys and LE sheeting, but the framework is complete. > > We measured the dimensions (front to rear spar - tip to root) and found > that > there is less than 1/8" difference in the measurements. I was told that > is > pretty good. > > I also wanted to check my jig with the water level before to starting the > right wing panel... it hasn't moved since we locked it down, prior to > starting assembly on the let panel. > > Here are a few photos. > > -------- > Mark - working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289365#289365 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050408_768x576_159.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050410_768x576_118.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050412_768x576_128.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050413_768x576_133.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050415_768x576_123.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:54 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: coverall project Douwe, good luck with her prognosis. Jeff ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:26 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone Ray, Here's a link to Mark's web site: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=k5yac&project=687&category=4 579 Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone I would really appreciate some details on this jig, if at all possible. Any references? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 7:13 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone > > Nice pics, Mark, thanks! I am still a big fan of your wing building jig. > That'll work great for me and my cramped work area. How about posting some > more in-process pics? > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > 18 ribs done > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:41 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Major Milestone > > > I'm not sure if this is actually a milestone, but I'm feeling pretty good > about it. I took my left wing panel off the jig today and trial fit the > aileron. Today was one of the first really nice days we have had in a > long > time, so I took my wing panel outside and set it on saw horses so I could > look it over in the sun light. It all looks good so far. I still need to > install control pulleys and LE sheeting, but the framework is complete. > > We measured the dimensions (front to rear spar - tip to root) and found > that > there is less than 1/8" difference in the measurements. I was told that > is > pretty good. > > I also wanted to check my jig with the water level before to starting the > right wing panel... it hasn't moved since we locked it down, prior to > starting assembly on the let panel. > > Here are a few photos. > > -------- > Mark - working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289365#289365 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050408_768x576_159.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050410_768x576_118.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050412_768x576_128.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050413_768x576_133.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3050415_768x576_123.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:41 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: coverall project Douwe, your wife is in our prayers. Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: coverall project > > Douwe, good luck with her prognosis. Jeff > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:53 PM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "A Masterpiece Pietenpol" Thanks Lorin Thats good to hear on a mighty tough day. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ldmill" Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:05 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: "A Masterpiece Pietenpol" > > It's a damp and foggy morning here in the lazy snowbound countryside of > Iowa, a light quiet mist drizzling down. The fog is so thick that it > muffles out sounds, you can?Tt see the old Lincoln highway a stones throw > north. A morning meant for memories and nostalgia, the tinney sounds of > "Sentimental Journey" quietly coming from some ratted out speakers at the > back of the shop. The grey and very old shorthair is just lying on her > rug in front of the heater, grunting and staring at me. Yes, it is time to > break out the much dog-eared Feb 2008 Sport Aviation rag and review the > article on Dick N?Ts radial Piet. What a great way to end the week. > Lorin > > -------- > Lorin Miller > Waiex N81YX > Pietenpol next up > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289512#289512 > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: First Major Milestone From: "K5YAC" I don't have many details really... I just followed the details in Bingelis' book and adjusted for my spar spacing. The distance between spars is 27 3/4"... my spars are 3/4" thick... that tells me that I needed to space the arms 28 1/2" apart. The main uprights are 2x4s and the arms are 1x4s (I think), but it really isn't that important, just as long as the material is sturdy enough to support the complete assembly. The arms extend ~5" outward (to support the full width of the spars) and they are supported by a couple of diagonals, cheap 1/4" plywood gussets, Elmer's wood glue and a few small nails from the nail gun. I used a shim to level the pair and clamped them to my workbench. The rest can be seen in my log book photos or Tony's book, "Kitplane Construction Techniques." -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289607#289607 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:03 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: coverall project Douwe, Let's talk about coveralls in a few months, as things settle down for you. We will be thinking of you and Marci. Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Douwe Blumberg >Sent: Mar 7, 2010 8:57 PM >To: pietenpolgroup >Subject: Pietenpol-List: coverall project > > >Hey gang, > >Just got back from a business trip and it looks like there are a lot of >fellows interested in some coveralls, but not a lot of agreement about a >logo. > >I haven't been able to give this much thought as my wife collapsed today in >church and is in the hospital now while the neurologists are trying to >figure out what in the world is going on. So... with that and three kids at >home, work, etc, etc... I'm feeling like a one-legged-man in a kicking >contest right about now. > >However, when things cool down here, I'll give it some thought and see if I >can come up with a plan that seems workable. Maybe we just all get our own >coveralls and send it to the silkscreeners ourselves (Jake??) or maybe they >come to me and I'll forward them along all at once, I don' t know. Sounds >like an old-timey Pietenpol logo is in order, but I really am attracted to a >more generic one as well as it's just a touch more authentic for the era. > >Any prayers for Marci are appreciated!! > >Douwe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.