---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/09/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Fuse dimensions (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 03:46 AM - Re: Fuse dimensions (Ben Charvet) 3. 04:23 AM - Re: Air Camper build in Australia (bubbleboy) 4. 07:25 AM - Re: Fuse dimensions (Dave Abramson) 5. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Air Camper build in Australia (Rick Holland) 6. 10:04 AM - Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (skellytown flyer) 7. 10:41 AM - Re: Fuse dimensions (Jeff Boatright) 8. 10:44 AM - Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (Jeff Boatright) 9. 10:52 AM - Re: Fuse dimensions (Rick Holland) 10. 01:25 PM - Re: Fuse dimensions (Dave Abramson) 11. 01:33 PM - Re: Air Camper build in Australia (carson) 12. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (Ben Charvet) 13. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (gcardinal) 14. 05:12 PM - Not a Piet, Thankfully (David Paule) 15. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (Jack) 16. 05:27 PM - Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (skellytown flyer) 17. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (Mike) 18. 08:13 PM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (David Paule) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions From: helspersew@aol.com Mark, Before you move your seat back, consider moving the rudder bar forward. Wi thout going out to measure, I think this could be done maybe 2 inches. The reason I say this is because I just put on my rudder bar stops a la Mike C. (glued them to the back face of the front seat forward uprights). I th ink this could be done. Anybody think this is a bad idea? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I am trying to plan out how far back to move the rear seat without effecti ng the balance issues (much) as I simply need more leg room to tuck in my 6'4" frame. Thanks for the feedback! Mark ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:36 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions Sounds like a great idea.. My rudder bar stops are about 3 inches deep. Ben Charvet On 3/9/2010 6:11 AM, helspersew@aol.com wrote: > Mark, > Before you move your seat back, consider moving the rudder bar > forward. Without going out to measure, I think this could be done > maybe 2 inches. The reason I say this is because I just put on my > rudder bar stops a la Mike C. (glued them to the back face of the > front seat forward uprights). I think this could be done. Anybody > think this is a bad idea? > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > I am trying to plan out how far back to move the rear seat without > effecting the balance issues (much) as I simply need more leg room to > tuck in my 6'4" frame. > > Thanks for the feedback! > > Mark > > * > > =================================== > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > =================================== > tp://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:34 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Air Camper build in Australia From: "bubbleboy" Hi Rick....not many Corvairs here in OZ! I had to get my block from the USA. How is your Corvair running? Scotty -------- Scotty Tamworth, Australia Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289766#289766 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:54 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions Hey Mark, I am 6'2" Built the short Fuse.... sat in it, and thought no way... Removed the front seat... and now it's perfect! I will be using the front for storage. Maybe a long range fuel tank! I also was able to move my wind screen forward a few inches. I now have a nice roomy cockpit! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:55 PM To: pietenpol-list Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions Hey All: I am doing some planning on my fuse build (as a way for twiddling my thumbs until I get more money) and am curious for some feedback from you guys flying behind a Corvair engine. I understand that they are quite a bit less weight than the original Model T Ford engine. I have read on the list that some have lengthened the fuse in the nose 2-4 inches to compensate for less weight rather than add weight to balance with a shorter nose even on the long fuse version (I am going by memory here...). Ok, I know I am simply begging to be flamed here, (Please resist :o), but for those of you that are flying a corvair powered Piet long fuse version, did you have to add weight in the nose? I am trying to plan out how far back to move the rear seat without effecting the balance issues (much) as I simply need more leg room to tuck in my 6'4" frame. Thanks for the feedback! Mark ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Air Camper build in Australia From: Rick Holland Got it running this fall Scotty (with Jim Markle's help). Ran it one more time this weekend before I pull it off so I can cover the fuselage. Runs very smooth and doesn't leak anything (yet). Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCLmhFpxQOw I assume you have heard of Broadhead (happens the weekend before AirVenture) if you read this group much. A couple years ago a couple Piet building "Kiwis" (as I believe you guys call New Zealanders) came to Broadhead. Was great talking to them. Would be a hell of a trip, half way around the planet but you would love it. rick On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:23 AM, bubbleboy wrote: > > Hi Rick....not many Corvairs here in OZ! I had to get my block from the USA. How is your Corvair running? > > Scotty > > -------- > Scotty > > Tamworth, Australia > Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper > > www.scottyspietenpol.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289766#289766 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? From: "skellytown flyer" sounds like it needs that attitude to maintain level flight. the wing naturally has to be at a certain angle of attack at a given weight and speed.are you holding any forward stick pressure? might be possible to raise the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer a little to reduce the down elevator and clean it up a little but probably wouldn't gain much unless you're maintaining pressure on the stick or have a trim tab doing it. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289809#289809 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:18 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions Dave, I can't visualize this (sorry, I have no imagination). When you say you removed the front seat, does that mean you discarded the bulkhead that forms the back of the front seat? I thought this is a structural member. If you mean otherwise, please expand. A picture is worth a thousand words, too. Thanks much, Jeff >Hey Mark, > >I am 6'2" Built the short Fuse.... sat in it, and thought no way... >Removed the front seat... and now it's perfect! I will be using the >front for storage. >Maybe a long range fuel tank! I also was able to move my wind screen >forward a few inches. >I now have a nice roomy cockpit! > >Dave -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:23 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator droop in level flight? Ben, How about some pix of the trim system? Thanks, Jeff > >Hi group, >I'm having a ball flying off my Phase 1. I installed a simple >bungee trim system on my control stick and now it will fly hands off >for several minutes. One question though. When trimmed for level >flight at cruise RPMs the elevator hangs down about 3-5 degrees. >I've noticed this on in-flight pictures of other Piets and just >wonder if anyone has figured out why? The trim system I have is >great, because when you pull the power back to 1400 RPM it starts >descending at 65 MPH, and you can fly the base and final legs in >nice trim for a wheel landing. > >Ben Charvet >7 hours done, 18 to go for Sun-N-Fun -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions From: Rick Holland I am building a long fuse with a Corvair. The long fuselage is several inches longer from the cabanes back and can therefore have more of a tail-heavy tendency than the regular fuselage. I read an article (in the archives somewhere) where Bernard recommended moving the firewall forward 6 inches if using a Continental engine, I believe he said he built one with the firewall 9 inches forward and said that was too much. When I talked to other long fuse Corvair Piet builders that had to more their wings back 3-4" to get in CG I decided to move my firewall forward enough so I could be really unique and have vertical cabanes. I weighed my assembled but uncovered airframe on aircraft scales with scrap iron strategically placed to simulate fuel weight to figure where the engine needed to be before making the engine mount. Ended up placing the engine with the rear of the balancer about 6" from the firewall. Of course until I cover and paint (which Jack P. says will move your CG back a bit), and do a final weight and balance I have no idea if my calculations are correct. rick On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Hey All: > > I am doing some planning on my fuse build (as a way for twiddling my thumbs > until I get more money) and am curious for some feedback from you guys > flying behind a Corvair engine. I understand that they are quite a bit less > weight than the original Model T Ford engine. I have read on the list that > some have lengthened the fuse in the nose 2-4 inches to compensate for less > weight rather than add weight to balance with a shorter nose even on the > long fuse version (I am going by memory here...). > > Ok, I know I am simply begging to be flamed here, (Please resist :o), but > for those of you that are flying a corvair powered Piet long fuse version, > did you have to add weight in the nose? > > I am trying to plan out how far back to move the rear seat without effecting > the balance issues (much) as I simply need more leg room to tuck in my 6'4" > frame. > > Thanks for the feedback! > > Mark > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:27 PM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensionsHi Jeff, I only cut a portion of the bulkhead out, and put some extra pieces of wood in that area...Just made it so my legs have plenty of room. Moving the rudder bar forward about 5"..... Don't really have any photos... I should take some! I will take some next time I am there and send to you! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:40 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions Dave, I can't visualize this (sorry, I have no imagination). When you say you removed the front seat, does that mean you discarded the bulkhead that forms the back of the front seat? I thought this is a structural member. If you mean otherwise, please expand. A picture is worth a thousand words, too. Thanks much, Jeff Hey Mark, I am 6'2" Built the short Fuse.... sat in it, and thought no way... Removed the front seat... and now it's perfect! I will be using the front for storage. Maybe a long range fuel tank! I also was able to move my wind screen forward a few inches. I now have a nice roomy cockpit! Dave -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Air Camper build in Australia From: "carson" Hi scott Great to see another Piet in OZ I am looking forward to the day we all have them finished and have a flyin of our own. I am just north of Brisbane but I come from down your way, near Scone I often pass through Tamworth on my way home to see the folks. Also I brought all my spruce from a guy in Newcastle well priced great quality and will save you a lot on shipping. Email me if you like carsonvella@yahoo.com.au I have tail,fuse,gear one half of wing done and currently working on the other. Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289830#289830 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:48 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? I'm actually holding lots of back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight.... Ben On 3/9/2010 1:04 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "skellytown flyer" > > sounds like it needs that attitude to maintain level flight. the wing naturally has to be at a certain angle of attack at a given weight and speed.are you holding any forward stick pressure? might be possible to raise the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer a little to reduce the down elevator and clean it up a little but probably wouldn't gain much unless you're maintaining pressure on the stick or have a trim tab doing it. Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289809#289809 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:16 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? Hi Ben, NX18235 needed a substantial amount of back pressure to maintain level flight on it's first flights. On close inspection it was discovered that the elevators were rigged slightly uneven. Adjusting the cables to even out the elevators removed most of the nose-down tendencies. Lowering the front edge of the stabilizer using cable tension took care of the rest. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Charvet" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? > > I'm actually holding lots of back pressure on the stick to maintain level > flight.... > > Ben > On 3/9/2010 1:04 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "skellytown >> flyer" >> >> sounds like it needs that attitude to maintain level flight. the wing >> naturally has to be at a certain angle of attack at a given weight and >> speed.are you holding any forward stick pressure? might be possible to >> raise the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer a little to reduce >> the down elevator and clean it up a little but probably wouldn't gain >> much unless you're maintaining pressure on the stick or have a trim tab >> doing it. Raymond >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289809#289809 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:10 PM PST US From: "David Paule" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Not a Piet, Thankfully This oddity is from Henri Mignet, who apparently felt that a wingspan of seven feet was enough. Especially if there were six of them. Powered by a flat-four, it was built in 1935. http://www.rbantiques.com/AC4804.htm David Paule ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:20 PM PST US From: "Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? Has anyone ever tried a lifting airfoil for the tail? I did this for many of my RC's and it helped a bunch. The tail would come up faster and it seemed to improve the pitch control. Jack DSM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? sounds like it needs that attitude to maintain level flight. the wing naturally has to be at a certain angle of attack at a given weight and speed.are you holding any forward stick pressure? might be possible to raise the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer a little to reduce the down elevator and clean it up a little but probably wouldn't gain much unless you're maintaining pressure on the stick or have a trim tab doing it. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289809#289809 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? From: "skellytown flyer" Sounds really odd that you are holding quite a bit of back pressure and the elevators are still in the down position? if they were up I'd think maybe the weight and balance was too far forward but I don't know why they would be down with back stick pressure. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289859#289859 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:18 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? The airflow at the horizontal is almost never aligned with the longitudinal axis of the fuselage because it is very much affected by downwash from the wing. The elevators may have to be even further out of alignment with the horizontal in order to be at neutral pitch input. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skellytown flyer Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? --> Sounds really odd that you are holding quite a bit of back pressure and the elevators are still in the down position? if they were up I'd think maybe the weight and balance was too far forward but I don't know why they would be down with back stick pressure. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289859#289859 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:10 PM PST US From: "David Paule" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? Some aircraft have a downward-lifting tail, since there's generally a downward force on the tail except during take-off. David Paule > > Has anyone ever tried a lifting airfoil for the tail? I did this for many > of my RC's and it helped a bunch. The tail would come up faster and it > seemed to improve the pitch control. > Jack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.