Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:22 AM - Re: Air Camper build in Australia (bubbleboy)
2. 01:25 AM - Re: Air Camper build in Australia (bubbleboy)
3. 01:26 AM - Re: Air Camper build in Australia (bubbleboy)
4. 06:53 AM - Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (skellytown flyer)
5. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
6. 08:36 AM - Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (skellytown flyer)
7. 08:59 AM - Re: Not a Piet, Thankfully (Rick Holland)
8. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (papa.bike.mike@gmail.com)
9. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (Rick Holland)
10. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Elevator droop in level flight? (David Paule)
11. 11:26 AM - Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (Ben Charvet)
12. 11:44 AM - Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (Jack Phillips)
13. 11:50 AM - Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (Rick Holland)
14. 12:46 PM - Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (Jeff Boatright)
15. 01:07 PM - Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (Oscar Zuniga)
16. 02:44 PM - new builder in TX (Oscar Zuniga)
17. 03:55 PM - Re: new builder in TX (Gene & Tammy)
18. 04:08 PM - Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (shad bell)
19. 06:08 PM - Re: Fuse dimensions (Mark Roberts)
20. 06:59 PM - Re: new builder in TX (Ken Howe)
21. 08:25 PM - Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Air Camper build in Australia |
Hi Rick...loved the video. Got me dreaming!
Yes I have heard of Brodhead. Would love to get there one day. I am a Kiwi actually
and been in OZ for 15 years now.
--------
Scotty
Tamworth, Australia
Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper
www.scottyspietenpol.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289882#289882
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Air Camper build in Australia |
Hi Rick...yes I have heard of Brodhead. Would love to get there one day.
I am actually a Kiwi originally but moved to OZ 15 years ago.
Loved the video!
--------
Scotty
Tamworth, Australia
Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper
www.scottyspietenpol.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289883#289883
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Air Camper build in Australia |
Hi Carson...will email you!
--------
Scotty
Tamworth, Australia
Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper
www.scottyspietenpol.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289885#289885
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop in level flight? |
the Fleet Bi-plane that is about 20 miles from here has a upward lifting tail.(I
think)I don't think they were a very popular idea. probably because if it lost
lift you could drop the tail causing the wing to stall quickly.seems like they
said it could be very interesting to land. they put it over on it's back last
year and have not got it re-built yet.but I think it was because they switched
to disc brakes and probably got to heavy footed. Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289897#289897
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop in level flight? |
It is my understanding that some planes used an upside down tail airfoil, With
aerodynamic "Lift" going down in such a way that if the tail stalled (Upward)
then the nose dropped, keeping the plane flying. At least it flew to the ground
with out the main wing stalling.
This makes sense until I think of hte plane being nose high with the tail airfoil
at a "reverse" position to the wind.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight?
>
> the Fleet Bi-plane that is about 20 miles from here has a upward lifting tail.(I
think)I don't think they were a very popular idea. probably because
> if it lost lift you could drop the tail causing the wing to stall
> quickly.seems like they said it could be very interesting to land.
> they put it over on it's back last year and have not got it re-
> built yet.but I think it was because they switched to disc brakes
> and probably got to heavy footed. Raymond
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289897#289897
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop in level flight? |
Maybe the subject needs to change, but that is why the lifting tail never caught
on I'm sure.where a normal down loaded tail will lose it's ability to pull the
tail down or could- and let the tail come up un-loading the wing to decrease
a stall- the lifting tail would do just the opposite.letting the tail fall and
increasing the angle of attack and bringing on a stall condition.at least that's
the reason I think most designers got away from it.I am thinking the DC-3
may also have used it at least in some models.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289914#289914
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Not a Piet, Thankfully |
Seven feet was enough span for Ray (and only two of them):
http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/Stits%20Sky%20Baby.asp
rick
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote:
>
> This oddity is from Henri Mignet, who apparently felt that a wingspan of
> seven feet was enough. Especially if there were six of them.
>
> Powered by a flat-four, it was built in 1935.
>
> http://www.rbantiques.com/AC4804.htm
>
> David Paule
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop in level flight? |
Any conventional airplane that is STABLE in pitch will have some downforce
at the tail, whether or not it is felt at the stick.
A "drooping" elevator may still produce a downforce because the airflow at
the tail is affected significantly by the wing's downwash.
Mike Hardaway
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dortch,
Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight?
--> <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
It is my understanding that some planes used an upside down tail airfoil,
With aerodynamic "Lift" going down in such a way that if the tail stalled
(Upward) then the nose dropped, keeping the plane flying. At least it flew
to the ground with out the main wing stalling.
This makes sense until I think of hte plane being nose high with the tail
airfoil at a "reverse" position to the wind.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Elevator droop in level flight?
>
> the Fleet Bi-plane that is about 20 miles from here has a upward
> lifting tail.(I think)I don't think they were a very popular idea.
> probably because if it lost lift you could drop the tail causing the wing
to stall quickly.seems like they said it could be very interesting to land.
> they put it over on it's back last year and have not got it re- built
> yet.but I think it was because they switched to disc brakes and
> probably got to heavy footed. Raymond
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289897#289897
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop in level flight? |
I believe a negative lift tail is necessary for a stable conventional aircraft.
rick
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 11:12 PM, David Paule <dpaule@frii.com> wrote:
>
> Some aircraft have a downward-lifting tail, since there's generally a
> downward force on the tail except during take-off.
>
> David Paule
>
>
>>
>> Has anyone ever tried a lifting airfoil for the tail? I did this for many
>> of my RC's and it helped a bunch. The tail would come up faster and it
>> seemed to improve the pitch control.
>> Jack
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop in level flight? |
Let's all remember what camber does: it slightly increases the total lift
coefficient and it changes the lift coefficient for minimum drag from zero
to a different number.
Since elevators move the total lift coefficient is mostly controlled by
that, although camber will affect it too.
The stalling angle is mostly controlled by the aspect ratio, which controls
the lift-curve slope. (The horizontal tail's aspect ratio is usually chosen
so that there's no hazard of it stalling before the wing, after accounting
for downwash, slipstream and whatever.)
So the main effect remaining is the minimum drag of the elevator - and on a
Pietenpol, that's probably pretty far down on your list of concerns.
David Paule
Message 11
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| Subject: | Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
Anybody have an idea how to safely add ballast to the front seat to
simulate carrying a passenger. I'd like to practice landings with
higher wing loadings prior to finishing phase 1. Any ideas appreciated.
Ben Charvet
8,4 hrs on Hobbs, 16.6 to go.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
Just add a passenger. The FARs allow you to carry essential crew and if the
test is to simulate carrying the weight of a passenger, then such a person
is essential to the test and is legal.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Phase 1 ballast up to gross?
Anybody have an idea how to safely add ballast to the front seat to
simulate carrying a passenger. I'd like to practice landings with
higher wing loadings prior to finishing phase 1. Any ideas appreciated.
Ben Charvet
8,4 hrs on Hobbs, 16.6 to go.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
Find a used store mannequin at Salvation Army and dump some lead shot
into the abdomen? (Will test your passenger lap/shoulder belts at the
same time). And when you are done with your test you can re-use it in
the passenger seat of your car to get through HOV lanes when your
alone.
rick
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Anybody have an idea how to safely add ballast to the front seat to simulate
> carrying a passenger. I'd like to practice landings with higher wing
> loadings prior to finishing phase 1. Any ideas appreciated.
>
> Ben Charvet
> 8,4 hrs on Hobbs, 16.6 to go.
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
Three 50-lb bags of sand? Set two on the seat and one on the floor,
tie them to the seat back, bottom, and front upright?
Alternatively, as Jack suggests, a real live human is justifiable as
crew. If you didn't live so far away, I'd be happy to do it. Wouldn't
be the first time I've been a crash test dummy. =-O
>
>Anybody have an idea how to safely add ballast to the front seat to
>simulate carrying a passenger. I'd like to practice landings with
>higher wing loadings prior to finishing phase 1. Any ideas
>appreciated.
>
>Ben Charvet
>8,4 hrs on Hobbs, 16.6 to go.
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
Message 15
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| Subject: | Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
Get some empty milk jugs, install them in the
airplane, then fill them with water. This
method is called "Corky's Revenge" ;o)
Seriously though, if you do use dead weight
ballast, make absolutely sure it is secured
in place. There have been accidents due to
shifting loads in airplanes.
I have thought about modifying a discarded
tote-type piece of luggage (with a telescoping
handle and wheels) that would strap into the
front seat with properly located brackets or
clips for the shoulder harness and lap belt,
that would serve as a "carry on" for x-c
flights. If you had such a piece of luggage
you could load it with weights of whatever
you have handy, even filling up heavy duty
ziploc bags with ordinary sand and adding them
to the suitcase as your testing progressed.
It would only be roughly half the weight of
a real passenger but the location would be
correct and you could secure it. Cost is
minimal- just go down to Goodwill and find
a suitable piece of luggage, then add some
straps or clips for the seat belt and harness
to go through to hold it securely in place.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | new builder in TX |
I just had a call from a friend of mine, Deanie
Montgomery in Corsicana, TX. He's the guy who
overhauled the three Stromberg NAS3 carbs that
I've had overhauled over the years. Anyway,
he called out of the blue to tell me that he
has gotten tired of building Stearmans and is
now starting to build a Piet. Another TACO!
Deanie is friends with Tom Brown, who I believe
owned "The Last Original", N7533U, since Deanie
says he has flown that airplane when it was
Tom's. I may not have the story just right but
I think that's what he told me.
Deanie thinks he's going to power his Piet with
a Corvair that he has available. As far as I
know though, he doesn't do email lists.
[Side note: Corsicana is home to the Collin Street
Bakery, famous for fruitcakes for over 110 years.
You can read about them on their website,
http://www.collinstreet.com/pages/about_us ]
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: new builder in TX |
Yes, Texas is famous for their furitcakes.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 4:44 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: new builder in TX
>
>
> I just had a call from a friend of mine, Deanie
> Montgomery in Corsicana, TX. He's the guy who
> overhauled the three Stromberg NAS3 carbs that
> I've had overhauled over the years. Anyway,
> he called out of the blue to tell me that he
> has gotten tired of building Stearmans and is
> now starting to build a Piet. Another TACO!
>
> Deanie is friends with Tom Brown, who I believe
> owned "The Last Original", N7533U, since Deanie
> says he has flown that airplane when it was
> Tom's. I may not have the story just right but
> I think that's what he told me.
>
> Deanie thinks he's going to power his Piet with
> a Corvair that he has available. As far as I
> know though, he doesn't do email lists.
>
> [Side note: Corsicana is home to the Collin Street
> Bakery, famous for fruitcakes for over 110 years.
> You can read about them on their website,
> http://www.collinstreet.com/pages/about_us ]
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07:33:00
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
The best way I found to test our piet for gross (with what was in my hanger) was
to get a old plastic milk crate and some of my barbells that I had lying around.
I went up incrementaly 25 or 50lbs at a time. I set the milk crate on the
front seat, put in the barbells, and ran the lap belt up through the hand holds
of the milk crate. the seat belt also held the weights from coming out the
top of the milk crate. I recomend adding weight a little at a time 20-30lbs
or so, to get used to the feel of it. If you think it drops like a stream lined
crowbar with power off, wait untill you add 150 more lbs. Also carry a bit
more speed on final so you have plenty of airspeed to flare, the more nose
heavy condition takes more to pull up the nose for 3 point attitude/ flare out.
Have fun and be careful, and dont forget to do you stall testing at gross, just
get about 3 mistakes high before stalling.
Shad
P.S. make sure you can move the rudder bar, a milk crate will hang over the sides
of the front seat, (like some passengers ass's do)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Fuse dimensions |
Thanks for the discussion guys. I appreciate the feedback... I was wigging
out to think about making an un-known change to the design, and it sounds as
if lengthening the nose is something condoned by the masses...
I wish I had followed through on my childhood desire to become an aerospace
engineer and then I could figure this stuff out definitively. But, a 4" or
so nose lengthening won't be out of the norm if using a Corvair...
Keep the advice flowing if there are more thoughts...
Mark
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Dave Abramson <davea@symbolicdisplays.com>wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I only cut a portion of the bulkhead out, and put some extra pieces of wood
> in that area...Just made it so my legs have plenty of room. Moving the
> rudder bar forward about 5".....
> Don't really have any photos...
> I should take some! I will take some next time I am there and send to you!
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *Jeff Boatright
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:40 AM
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse dimensions
>
> Dave,
>
> I can't visualize this (sorry, I have no imagination). When you say you
> removed the front seat, does that mean you discarded the bulkhead that forms
> the back of the front seat? I thought this is a structural member. If you
> mean otherwise, please expand. A picture is worth a thousand words, too.
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Hey Mark,
>
>
> I am 6'2" Built the short Fuse.... sat in it, and thought no way...
>
> Removed the front seat... and now it's perfect! I will be using the front
> for storage.
>
> Maybe a long range fuel tank! I also was able to move my wind screen
> forward a few inches.
>
> I now have a nice roomy cockpit!
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jeff Boatright
> "Now let's think about this..."
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: new builder in TX |
Wow, the things you learn on this list. When I lived in Texas (outside
Dallas) I never ran into any fruitcakes in Corsicana. Of course if I had
I probably would have stubbed my toe.
(Yes, I did have a friend that lived in Corsicana.)
--Ken
do not archive
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
> I just had a call from a friend of mine, Deanie
> Montgomery in Corsicana, TX. He's the guy who
> overhauled the three Stromberg NAS3 carbs that
> I've had overhauled over the years. Anyway,
> he called out of the blue to tell me that he
> has gotten tired of building Stearmans and is
> now starting to build a Piet. Another TACO!
>
> Deanie is friends with Tom Brown, who I believe
> owned "The Last Original", N7533U, since Deanie
> says he has flown that airplane when it was
> Tom's. I may not have the story just right but
> I think that's what he told me.
>
> Deanie thinks he's going to power his Piet with
> a Corvair that he has available. As far as I
> know though, he doesn't do email lists.
>
> [Side note: Corsicana is home to the Collin Street
> Bakery, famous for fruitcakes for over 110 years.
> You can read about them on their website,
> http://www.collinstreet.com/pages/about_us ]
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Phase 1 ballast up to gross? |
Shad: you have hit upon at least three things that I have experienced in 41CC.
1. Heavy pax aboard. Yessirreee... my first flights in 41CC were dual, with my
instructor in the front cockpit. I got used to a certain rate of climb and descent
for T/O and approach, flying two up. The first time I flew it solo, it
was a different airplane! Same thing when I would fly solo to a field and then
take a pax up for a ride... embarrassment! Even if I would manage the stately
departure, I would mis-judge the final approach really badly. The sink rate
on final with two aboard is considerably different (putting it mildly) than
when solo, especially if you fly the same airspeed on final (about 55-57) dual
that you do when solo. Carry a bit more airspeed when you have somebody up
front.
2. When I first changed out the A65 for the A75 that is now on the airplane, I
flew the first couple of test flights with the cowling off. My first approach
and landing almost balled the airplane up in the grass because it came down RIGHT
NOW when I pulled the power off over the trees. Well, maybe I'm exaggerating
but the descent rate in an uncowled Piet can be breathtaking (Dick Navratil
with an uncowled radial on your Piet, can you hear me?). I can only imagine
what the descent rate would be on an uncowled Piet, with two aboard!
3. Any Piet pilot who has not experienced "rudder bar travel limited by passenger
gluteus maximus" has not truly lived. I have had my shoes well into my passenger's
backside while dancing on the rudder bar, but fortunately have not had
either shoe hang up there. Charlie, my instructor, has. He made a gentle sweeping
arc off the side of the runway on rollout when his boot got hung up in
the passenger's drooping backside. There was no graceful way to explain the
situation to the pax except to tell it like it was, have him lift a cheek to free
Charlie's boot, and they taxied to the ramp with the warm Texas breeze and
bluebonnet smell mixing with Continental exhaust. Pilots, check "controls free
and correct" while kicking rudder to the stops on runup lest you too experience
"gluteus maximus lockup".
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289989#289989
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