Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:40 AM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Gary Boothe)
2. 08:34 AM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Rick Holland)
3. 08:36 AM - Re: Corvair oil (Rick Holland)
4. 08:47 AM - Re: Corvair oil (Ryan Mueller)
5. 09:02 AM - Re: Corvair oil (skellytown flyer)
6. 09:41 AM - Re: Corvair oil (Tim Willis)
7. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: My cousin's LSA (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG)
8. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: My cousin's LSA (Tim Willis)
9. 11:36 AM - Re: My cousin's LSA (taildrags)
10. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: My cousin's LSA (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG)
11. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: My cousin's LSA (Jeff Boatright)
12. 12:29 PM - cheap Stromberg (skellytown flyer)
13. 12:41 PM - Re: cheap Stromberg (Ryan Mueller)
14. 12:44 PM - Re: cheap Stromberg (Ryan Mueller)
15. 12:46 PM - On the subject of oil... (jeff wilson)
16. 01:06 PM - Re: On the subject of oil... (Perry Rhoads)
17. 01:32 PM - Re: On the subject of oil... (Ryan Mueller)
18. 01:53 PM - Re: cheap Stromberg (skellytown flyer)
19. 02:03 PM - Re: cheap Stromberg (taildrags)
20. 02:08 PM - Re: On the subject of oil... (taildrags)
21. 02:36 PM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Wayne Bressler)
22. 02:54 PM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Jeff wilson)
23. 03:00 PM - reliability and safety/ risks (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
24. 03:39 PM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Rick Holland)
25. 03:50 PM - Phase 1 update NX866BC (Ben Charvet)
26. 03:55 PM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Gary Boothe)
27. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: My cousin's LSA (Gary Boothe)
28. 04:39 PM - Re: Phase 1 update NX866BC (Jack Phillips)
29. 04:41 PM - Re: reliability and safety/ risks (Jeff Boatright)
30. 04:43 PM - Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long (Wayne Bressler)
31. 05:28 PM - Re: Corvair crank failures etc (shad bell)
32. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Corvair oil (shad bell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Corvair vs. Continental - long |
Thanks, Jim. What are you working on these days? I am puttering with instruments
and was wondering what kind of ignition switch you plan on using?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair vs. Continental - long
Well said Gary. That explanation probably fits most of us building a Piet and whatever
non-ac parts we use. Being another Corvair, doug fir Piet builder I'm
going to frame your message.
Thanks,
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Mar 31, 2010, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
Jack (et al),
Here is my debate:
You, and others, have said things that have caused me to pause and consider my
decisions, and sometimes change my path. As always, you are the epitome of common
sense and good judgment.or are you? I know that you know spam can drivers
that look at you in your little home-made airplane (exquisite as it is, even
with its reliable engine) and say, if not to you at least to themselves, I would/could
never do that. Youre going to fly it where? To Brodhead? Or, how about
the guys who say flying a taildragger is too dangerous! And all of those spam
can drivers know ground pounders who say, Youre a pilot? You fly a Cessna/Piper/Beech?
Isnt that scary? I could never do that!
The great mathematician, Augusta De Morgan, said:
"Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on,
While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on."
So, everyone has their limits. When we make the decision to build an experimental
airplane, we set ourselves on a less traveled pathbut thats just the beginning
Consider the individual who decides:
To build an airplane,
To build a wood & fabric airplane,
To build a wood & fabric airplane designed in 1929,
To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce,
To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, and fir spars,
To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, and wooden struts,
To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, and a non-A/C engine,
To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, a non-A/C engine, with a home-made prop,
To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, a non-A/C engine, a home-made prop, painted
with house paint instead of dope,
ad infinitum.
At which point would most builders stopat which point would you stop? My ex-father-in-law,
insurance agent, thought I was nuts to start flying in the first place
(age 17)!
Am I nuts? Maybe. Nuts about flying.
Am I suicidal? Definitely not!
I fully respect your opinion about A/C engines if for no other reason than you
are vastly more experienced than I. But this project has been a series of path
choices for me, and, for some reason, I keep choosing the less-traveled path.
In the end, I expect that I will have many, many taxi hours and ground runs of
my crank-breaking Corvair, not that that will expose any/all problems, but the
actual take-off should be a non-event. For me, the choice of using a Corvair
was a merely a result of choosing a less-traveled pathhaving more hp, a smoother
less expensive engine, were just fortunate by-products. Meeting William Wynne
was a God-send!
If you know a risk management expert, please give him my contact info! .or, are
we ALL beyond risk management?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
I have a total of $7,000 in my A-65, but that included NEW Millenium Cylinders
and pistons, which was $3400 of that total. I also sent the crankcasr out to
Divco for overhauling, and the crankshaft and connecting rods were overhauled
by Aircraft Specialties. I bought a new camshaft, and new Slick magnetos. I
did the overhaul myself, under the supervision of an A&P/IA. I could have done
it much cheaper, but I like reliability, which is what started this thread.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
To play devil's advocate: the Corvair project for $6,000 is everything needed to
assemble the Wynne based Corvair conversion, all parts reworked, overhauled,
or new. How much did you have in your A-65 after the cost of acquisition, rework,
new parts, etc? Just curious... ;)
Ryan
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I think Bernard liked to experiment. At the time he used that Corvair, it was
far cheaper than an aircraft engine. That is no longer the case (the email that
started this thread was about a Corvair PROJECT that was for sale for $6,000,
which is four times as much as I paid for my Continental A-65, and is nearly
half what Ive got in the Lycoming O-540 that Ill put in the RV-10). I owned
a Corvair for several years (we bought it new in 1966, so it wasnt worn out when
we got it, although it was 3 years later) and learned a great deal about the
reliability of both the engine and the car. I remember that the Corvair was
used in one of my machine design classes in college as an example of how NOT
to design a belt-drive system.
But these airplanes are licensed as Experimental, so go for it. I just prefer
aircraft engines for aircraft, and car engines for cars. The design requirements
are totally different.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
I plan to Jack. I have 12 hours on the fly off now and everything is working great
so far. By the way, Are you suggesting that Bernie made a mistake by using
the corvair as an alternative engine? Cheers, Gardiner
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 8:33:01 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
Does that mean you are going to fly it to Brodhead this year, Gardiner? My low
power but utterly reliable Continental has made the trip 3 times now.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of airlion
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
Well Jack, at least my boat anchor will get me over those high hills west of you.
Gardiner
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:21:01 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
Wow! An A65 with only 1505 Total Time? Thats pretty incredible.
So having sold that Chevrolet boat-anchor you now have some funds available to
purchase a flying Pietenpol? Congratulations, Ryan!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?P href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long |
Totally agree. We are talking about taking on increased risk here.
Using units of ROEDUs (Risk Of Emminent Death Units) I would calculate
the following:
Going from no General Aviation activity to building and flying a plans
built vintage 1929 aircraft (with no prior aircraft building
experience)
- 500 ROEDUs.
Going from building and flying a plans built vintage 1929 aircraft
with a "Real" aircraft engine to auto conversion engine
- 1 ROEDU.
Not saying home building is all that risky, just that aviation vs.
auto engine choice pales compared to the choice of entering the plans
built homebuilding/flying activity in the first place.
rick
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Jim <jimboyer@hughes.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well said Gary. That explanation probably fits most of us building a Piet and
whatever non-ac parts we use. Being another Corvair, doug fir Piet builder I'm
going to frame your message.
> Thanks,
> Jim B.
>
> Jim Boyer
> Santa Rosa, CA
> Pietenpol on wheels
> Tail surfaces done
> Wing ribs done
> Corvair engine
>
>
> On Mar 31, 2010, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Jack (et al),
>
> Here is my debate:
>
> You, and others, have said things that have caused me to pause and consider my
decisions, and sometimes change my path. As always, you are the epitome of common
sense and good judgment.or are you? I know that you know spam can drivers
that look at you in your little home-made airplane (exquisite as it is, even
with its reliable engine) and say, if not to you at least to themselves, I would/could
never do that. Youre going to fly it where? To Brodhead? Or, how about
the guys who say flying a taildragger is too dangerous! And all of those spam
can drivers know ground pounders who say, Youre a pilot? You fly a Cessna/Piper/Beech?
Isnt that scary? I could never do that!
>
> The great mathematician, Augusta De Morgan, said:
>
> "Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
> And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
> And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on,
> While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on."
>
> So, everyone has their limits. When we make the decision to build an experimental
airplane, we set ourselves on a less traveled pathbut thats just the beginning
>
> Consider the individual who decides:
>
> To build an airplane,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane designed in 1929,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, and fir spars,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, and wooden struts,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, and a non-A/C engine,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, a non-A/C engine, with a home-made prop,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead of A/C
Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, a non-A/C engine, a home-made prop,
painted with house paint instead of dope,
> ad infinitum.
>
> At which point would most builders stopat which point would you stop? My ex-father-in-law,
insurance agent, thought I was nuts to start flying in the first
place (age 17)!
>
> Am I nuts? Maybe. Nuts about flying.
>
> Am I suicidal? Definitely not!
>
> I fully respect your opinion about A/C engines if for no other reason than you
are vastly more experienced than I. But this project has been a series of path
choices for me, and, for some reason, I keep choosing the less-traveled path.
>
> In the end, I expect that I will have many, many taxi hours and ground runs of
my crank-breaking Corvair, not that that will expose any/all problems, but the
actual take-off should be a non-event. For me, the choice of using a Corvair
was a merely a result of choosing a less-traveled pathhaving more hp, a smoother
less expensive engine, were just fortunate by-products. Meeting William Wynne
was a God-send!
>
> If you know a risk management expert, please give him my contact info! .or, are
we ALL beyond risk management?
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> 18 ribs done
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 2:49 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
>
> I have a total of $7,000 in my A-65, but that included NEW Millenium Cylinders
and pistons, which was $3400 of that total. I also sent the crankcasr out to
Divco for overhauling, and the crankshaft and connecting rods were overhauled
by Aircraft Specialties. I bought a new camshaft, and new Slick magnetos. I did
the overhaul myself, under the supervision of an A&P/IA. I could have done
it much cheaper, but I like reliability, which is what started this thread.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
>
> To play devil's advocate: the Corvair project for $6,000 is everything needed
to assemble the Wynne based Corvair conversion, all parts reworked, overhauled,
or new. How much did you have in your A-65 after the cost of acquisition, rework,
new parts, etc? Just curious... ;)
>
> Ryan
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I think Bernard liked to experiment. At the time he used that Corvair, it was
far cheaper than an aircraft engine. That is no longer the case (the email that
started this thread was about a Corvair PROJECT that was for sale for $6,000,
which is four times as much as I paid for my Continental A-65, and is nearly
half what Ive got in the Lycoming O-540 that Ill put in the RV-10). I owned
a Corvair for several years (we bought it new in 1966, so it wasnt worn out when
we got it, although it was 3 years later) and learned a great deal about the
reliability of both the engine and the car. I remember that the Corvair was
used in one of my machine design classes in college as an example of how NOT to
design a belt-drive system.
>
> But these airplanes are licensed as Experimental, so go for it. I just prefer
aircraft engines for aircraft, and car engines for cars. The design requirements
are totally different.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:50 PM
>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
>
> I plan to Jack. I have 12 hours on the fly off now and everything is working
great so far. By the way, Are you suggesting that Bernie made a mistake by using
the corvair as an alternative engine? Cheers, Gardiner
>
>
> From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 8:33:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
> Does that mean you are going to fly it to Brodhead this year, Gardiner? My low
power but utterly reliable Continental has made the trip 3 times now.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of airlion
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:04 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
>
> Well Jack, at least my boat anchor will get me over those high hills west of
you. Gardiner
>
> From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:21:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for sale
> Wow! An A65 with only 1505 Total Time? Thats pretty incredible.
>
> So having sold that Chevrolet boat-anchor you now have some funds available to
purchase a flying Pietenpol? Congratulations, Ryan!
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?P href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co=================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 3
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Cannot find 10W40 Rotella, use 15W40 Rotella as WW recommends.
rick
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:53 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> OK I expect the oil brand issue is about like asking what kind of glue is best.
anyway- I am getting closer on this project I bought from D.J. and thinking
about draining the oil and putting in new just because it has sat several years.
I am sure he ran it some from what he told me and I have pre-lubed it and
ran it a few minutes last summer. still with the same oil he had in it. it has
a good quality K&N oil filter so I have no doubt he put good quality oil in it.
but as I expect to be flying it before too much longer I'd like to replace
it with new oil just because it has set idle several years.doubt it got much condensation
in Arizona or here in the dry Texas panhandle either.I see in the
Wyn manual he suggests using 10W40 Rotella T for break-in and then he says Amsoil
10/30 synthetic is his choice. I plan on running mostly 100 LL fuel in it
at least for the near future and wondering what is a good oil to deal with the
leaded fuel.the Corvair may not have any lead problem!
> s but I remember reading about it being an issue in the Rotax 912 or 914 engines
with certain oils.Raymond
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292728#292728
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 4
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Per WW's website, from Oct '07:
*Oil Recommendations*
The only oil we use in engines today is Shell Rotella T 15W40. It's readily
available and has the highest temp tolerance of any mineral based oil I
know. We use this for break in and normal operation. As an option for
extreme duty or turbo motors, Amsoil synthetic 10W30 oil is my choice. Both
of these are 100% compatible with 100ll fuel.
Ryan
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>wrote:
> skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
>
> OK I expect the oil brand issue is about like asking what kind of glue is
> best. anyway- I am getting closer on this project I bought from D.J. and
> thinking about draining the oil and putting in new just because it has sat
> several years. I am sure he ran it some from what he told me and I have
> pre-lubed it and ran it a few minutes last summer. still with the same oil
> he had in it. it has a good quality K&N oil filter so I have no doubt he put
> good quality oil in it. but as I expect to be flying it before too much
> longer I'd like to replace it with new oil just because it has set idle
> several years.doubt it got much condensation in Arizona or here in the dry
> Texas panhandle either.I see in the Wyn manual he suggests using 10W40
> Rotella T for break-in and then he says Amsoil 10/30 synthetic is his
> choice. I plan on running mostly 100 LL fuel in it at least for the near
> future and wondering what is a good oil to deal with the leaded fuel.the
> Corvair may not have any lead problem!
> s but I remember reading about it being an issue in the Rotax 912 or 914
> engines with certain oils.Raymond
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292728#292728
>
>
Message 5
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that's the answers I needed! thanks guys. I'm gonna try and remove the cowl and
drain the old out this weekend as soon as I get done running it to set the timing.it
helps a lot. have a great Easter weekend.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292782#292782
Message 6
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Synthetics such as the Amsoil mentioned have been found not to have the corrosion
resistance of mineral oils. This was reported some time back in a "Sport Aviation"
article. This is important because A/C engines often sit for quite awhile
between flights, and that is when the corrosion hits.
I have no personal experience in either case. My aero engines currently have Shell
Aero, because they are getting zero use. I use Castrol Synblend in my cars
and a similar Castrol in my Mercedes diesels, and Shell Rotella in my Ford
pickup with Navistar diesel engine. I'd be inclined to use the Rotella mineral
oil in my aero engines, after break-in with the Shell Aero 100.
In all cases I believe in putting in the best oil, for it is the cheapest in all
cases. Which one is best is the only issue... right?
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Mueller
Sent: Apr 2, 2010 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
Per WW's website, from Oct '07:
Oil Recommendations
The only oil we use in engines today is Shell Rotella T 15W40. It's readily available
and has the highest temp tolerance of any mineral based oil I know. We
use this for break in and normal operation. As an option for extreme duty or turbo
motors, Amsoil synthetic 10W30 oil is my choice. Both of these are 100% compatible
with 100ll fuel.
Ryan
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wrote:
OK I expect the oil brand issue is about like asking what kind of glue is best.
anyway- I am getting closer on this project I bought from D.J. and thinking about
draining the oil and putting in new just because it has sat several years.
I am sure he ran it some from what he told me and I have pre-lubed it and ran
it a few minutes last summer. still with the same oil he had in it. it has a
good quality K&N oil filter so I have no doubt he put good quality oil in it.
but as I expect to be flying it before too much longer I'd like to replace it
with new oil just because it has set idle several years.doubt it got much condensation
in Arizona or here in the dry Texas panhandle either.I see in the Wyn
manual he suggests using 10W40 Rotella T for break-in and then he says Amsoil
10/30 synthetic is his choice. I plan on running mostly 100 LL fuel in it at
least for the near future and wondering what is a good oil to deal with the leaded
fuel.the Corvair may not have any lead problem!
s but I remember reading about it being an issue in the Rotax 912 or 914 engines
with certain oils.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292728#292728
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: My cousin's LSA |
This is from the AOPA Newsletter about a change in LSA regulations:
"Another correction would require pilots operating under a sport pilot certificate
to receive training and an endorsement to operate light sport airplanes with
a maximum level flight speed (Vh) less than 87 KCAS. The FAA issued the change
because of safety concerns regarding pilots who had little experience flying
slow, high-drag airplanes."
See, those slow planes are dangerous!.
;-}
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: My cousin's LSA |
This is just more evidence of "nanny state mentality" in government... from local
school boards to the Feds. What would Wilbur & Orville think of all this?
They would sure LOVE the planes, though.
Tim in central TX
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
>Sent: Apr 2, 2010 12:44 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: My cousin's LSA
>
>
>
>This is from the AOPA Newsletter about a change in LSA regulations:
>
>"Another correction would require pilots operating under a sport pilot certificate
to receive training and an endorsement to operate light sport airplanes with
a maximum level flight speed (Vh) less than 87 KCAS. The FAA issued the change
because of safety concerns regarding pilots who had little experience flying
slow, high-drag airplanes."
>
>See, those slow planes are dangerous!.
>;-}
>
>Blue Skies,
>Steve D
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: My cousin's LSA |
Let's see... now the FAA requires special training for slow, high-drag airplanes;
complex airplanes; high-performance airplanes; multiengine airplanes; conventional
geared airplanes... and type certificates for all the rest. You may be
right, Tim...
do not archive
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292794#292794
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: My cousin's LSA |
The FAA is moving in two directions.
They dropped the Sport Pilot requirement to be checked out in each different plane
within the pilot's approved type! Previously if you were checked out in a
LSA Air Camper, you had to get a whole checkout in a flybaby. Now you don't.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: taildrags <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My cousin's LSA
>
> Let's see... now the FAA requires special training for slow, high-drag airplanes;
complex airplanes; high-performance airplanes; multiengine
> airplanes; conventional geared airplanes... and type certificates
> for all the rest. You may be right, Tim...
>
> do not archive
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> Air Camper NX41CC
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292794#292794
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: My cousin's LSA |
Wow, I did not know that. Glad they made the change.
><steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
>
>The FAA is moving in two directions.
>They dropped the Sport Pilot requirement to be checked out in each
>different plane within the pilot's approved type! Previously if you
>were checked out in a LSA Air Camper, you had to get a whole
>checkout in a flybaby. Now you don't.
>
>Blue Skies,
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
Message 12
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|
there is a stromberg carb for sale in Ebay aircraft parts and accessories. only
about 25 minutes left but no bids on it and 100$ starting price. I don't know
it it has enough info to give any idea if it would work for any pf our aircraft
but just in case you want to look. Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292799#292799
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: cheap Stromberg |
I think you misread the time, Ray...is this the carb?
http://bit.ly/cwyfoH
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:28 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>wrote:
> skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
>
> there is a stromberg carb for sale in Ebay aircraft parts and accessories.
> only about 25 minutes left but no bids on it and 100$ starting price. I
> don't know it it has enough info to give any idea if it would work for any
> pf our aircraft but just in case you want to look. Raymond
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292799#292799
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: cheap Stromberg |
Either way, that carb should be usable for a Corvair or an A-65. I believe
the difference between the NA-S3B and related Strombergs for the small
Continentals is that the NA-S3B has no mixture control parts in it at
all....that area is just covered over by a plate. Functionally this
shouldn't be any different than NA-S3A1s, as the mixture is generally wired
full rich anyhow.
Ryan
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think you misread the time, Ray...is this the carb?
>
> http://bit.ly/cwyfoH
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:28 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
>>
>> there is a stromberg carb for sale in Ebay aircraft parts and accessories.
>> only about 25 minutes left but no bids on it and 100$ starting price. I
>> don't know it it has enough info to give any idea if it would work for any
>> pf our aircraft but just in case you want to look. Raymond
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292799#292799
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | On the subject of oil... |
I searched the archive and only came up with one entry that didn't really a
nswer my question.-
Question is ... what kind of oil to use in my A-65?- My engine has about
300 hours SMOH- and chrome cylinders.- What are the different kinds of
oil that are possible and is there special reasons for each use. What are t
he pro and cons. Why do you use this one or that one over another?
Any and all answers and opinions welcome.
Jeff Wilson
N899WT
St. Louis, MO
--- On Fri, 4/2/10, Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
et>
Synthetics such as the Amsoil mentioned have been found not to have the cor
rosion resistance of mineral oils.- This was reported some time back in a
"Sport Aviation" article.- This is important because A/C engines often s
it for quite awhile between flights, and that is when the corrosion hits.
I have no personal experience in either case.- My aero engines currently
have Shell Aero, because they are getting zero use.- I use Castrol Synble
nd in my cars and a similar Castrol in my Mercedes diesels, and Shell Rotel
la in my Ford pickup with Navistar diesel engine.- I'd be inclined to use
the Rotella mineral oil in my aero engines, after break-in with the Shell
Aero 100.-
In all cases I believe in putting in the best oil, for it is the cheapest i
n all cases.- Which one is best is the only issue... right?
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Mueller
Sent: Apr 2, 2010 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
Per WW's website, from Oct '07:
Oil Recommendations
The only oil we use in engines today is Shell Rotella T 15W40. It's readily
available and has the highest temp tolerance of any mineral based oil I kn
ow. We use this for break in and normal operation. As an option for extreme
duty or turbo motors, Amsoil synthetic 10W30 oil is my choice. Both of the
se are 100% compatible with 100ll fuel.
Ryan
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wr
ote:
.com>
OK I expect the oil brand issue is about like asking what kind of glue is b
est. anyway- I am getting closer on this project I bought from D.J. and thi
nking about draining the oil and putting in new just because it has sat sev
eral years. I am sure he ran it some from what he told me and I have pre-lu
bed it and ran it a few minutes last summer. still with the same oil he had
in it. it has a good quality K&N oil filter so I have no doubt he put good
quality oil in it. but as I expect to be flying it before too much longer
I'd like to replace it with new oil just because it has set idle several ye
ars.doubt it got much condensation in Arizona or here in the dry Texas panh
andle either.I see in the Wyn manual he suggests using 10W40 Rotella T for
break-in and then he says Amsoil 10/30 synthetic is his choice. I plan on r
unning mostly 100 LL fuel in it at least for the near future and wondering
what is a good oil to deal with the leaded fuel.the Corvair may not
have any lead problem!
s but I remember reading about it being an issue in the Rotax 912 or 914 e
ngines with certain oils.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292728#292728
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: On the subject of oil... |
Aero Shell 50W. It's worked for decades in these engines.
Perry Rhoads
Piet N12939
----- Original Message -----
From: jeff wilson
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 2:46 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: On the subject of oil...
I searched the archive and only came up with one entry that
didn't really answer my question.
Question is ... what kind of oil to use in my A-65? My engine
has about 300 hours SMOH and chrome cylinders. What are the different
kinds of oil that are possible and is there special reasons for each
use. What are the pro and cons. Why do you use this one or that one over
another?
Any and all answers and opinions welcome.
Jeff Wilson
N899WT
St. Louis, MO
--- On Fri, 4/2/10, Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
wrote:
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 11:40 AM
<timothywillis@earthlink.net>
Synthetics such as the Amsoil mentioned have been found not to
have the corrosion resistance of mineral oils. This was reported some
time back in a "Sport Aviation" article. This is important because A/C
engines often sit for quite awhile between flights, and that is when the
corrosion hits.
I have no personal experience in either case. My aero engines
currently have Shell Aero, because they are getting zero use. I use
Castrol Synblend in my cars and a similar Castrol in my Mercedes
diesels, and Shell Rotella in my Ford pickup with Navistar diesel
engine. I'd be inclined to use the Rotella mineral oil in my aero
engines, after break-in with the Shell Aero 100.
In all cases I believe in putting in the best oil, for it is
the cheapest in all cases. Which one is best is the only issue...
right?
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Mueller
Sent: Apr 2, 2010 11:47 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
Per WW's website, from Oct '07:
Oil Recommendations
The only oil we use in engines today is Shell Rotella T 15W40.
It's readily available and has the highest temp tolerance of any mineral
based oil I know. We use this for break in and normal operation. As an
option for extreme duty or turbo motors, Amsoil synthetic 10W30 oil is
my choice. Both of these are 100% compatible with 100ll fuel.
Ryan
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, skellytown flyer
<skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wrote:
<skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
OK I expect the oil brand issue is about like asking what kind
of glue is best. anyway- I am getting closer on this project I bought
from D.J. and thinking about draining the oil and putting in new just
because it has sat several years. I am sure he ran it some from what he
told me and I have pre-lubed it and ran it a few minutes last summer.
still with the same oil he had in it. it has a good quality K&N oil
filter so I have no doubt he put good quality oil in it. but as I expect
to be flying it before too much longer I'd like to replace it with new
oil just because it has set idle several years.doubt it got much
condensation in Arizona or here in the dry Texas panhandle either.I see
in the Wyn manual he suggests using 10W40 Rotella T for break-in and
then he says Amsoil 10/30 synthetic is his choice. I plan on running
mostly 100 LL fuel in it at least for the near future and wondering what
is a good oil to deal with the leaded fuel.the Corvair may not have any
lead problem!
s but I remember reading about it being an issue in the Rotax
912 or 914 engines with certain oils.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292728#292728
==========
st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
target="_blank">ht http://forums.ma - List Contribution Web
Site; &nb;
http:=======================
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| Subject: | Re: On the subject of oil... |
Here's what the type cert for A-65s says. It was last revised in Nov 1973:
Ambient Air Temperature Below 40 =B0F: SAE 20
Ambient Air Temperature Above 40 =B0F: SAE 40
However, Continental has a Service Information Letter listing TCM authorize
d
sealants, lubes, and adhesives applicable to all engine models. The latest
revision is SIL-99-2B, from October 2005, and you may as well consider this
to supersede the old TC:
http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SIL99-2B.pdf
It calls for:
Ambient Air Temperature Below 40 =B0F: SAE 30 or multi-viscosity
Ambient Air Temperature Above 40 =B0F: SAE 50 or multi-viscosity
In there you will also find a list of various types of oil from various
manufacturers that would fall under the acceptable lubricant criteria.
Ryan
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Perry Rhoads <prhoads61@frontiernet.net>wro
te:
> Aero Shell 50W. It's worked for decades in these engines.
>
> Perry Rhoads
> Piet N12939
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, April 02, 2010 2:46 PM
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: On the subject of oil...
>
> I searched the archive and only came up with one entry that didn't
> really answer my question.
> Question is ... what kind of oil to use in my A-65? My engine has about
> 300 hours SMOH and chrome cylinders. What are the different kinds of oi
l
> that are possible and is there special reasons for each use. What are the
> pro and cons. Why do you use this one or that one over another?
> Any and all answers and opinions welcome.
> Jeff Wilson
> N899WT
> St. Louis, MO
>
> --- On *Fri, 4/2/10, Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 11:40 AM
>
> timothywillis@earthlink.net<http://mc/compose?to=timothywillis@earthlin
k.net>
> >
>
>
> Synthetics such as the Amsoil mentioned have been found not to have the
> corrosion resistance of mineral oils. This was reported some time back i
n a
> "Sport Aviation" article. This is important because A/C engines often si
t
> for quite awhile between flights, and that is when the corrosion hits.
>
> I have no personal experience in either case. My aero engines currently
> have Shell Aero, because they are getting zero use. I use Castrol Synble
nd
> in my cars and a similar Castrol in my Mercedes diesels, and Shell Rotell
a
> in my Ford pickup with Navistar diesel engine. I'd be inclined to use th
e
> Rotella mineral oil in my aero engines, after break-in with the Shell Aer
o
> 100.
>
> In all cases I believe in putting in the best oil, for it is the cheapest
> in all cases. Which one is best is the only issue... right?
> Tim in central TX
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Mueller
> Sent: Apr 2, 2010 11:47 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<http://mc/compose?to=pietenpol-list@ma
tronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair oil
>
> Per WW's website, from Oct '07:
>
> Oil Recommendations
> The only oil we use in engines today is Shell Rotella T 15W40. It's readi
ly
> available and has the highest temp tolerance of any mineral based oil I
> know. We use this for break in and normal operation. As an option for
> extreme duty or turbo motors, Amsoil synthetic 10W30 oil is my choice. Bo
th
> of these are 100% compatible with 100ll fuel.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com<h
ttp://mc/compose?to=skellflyer1@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> skellflyer1@yahoo.com <http://mc/compose?to=skellflyer1@yahoo.com>>
>
> OK I expect the oil brand issue is about like asking what kind of glue is
> best. anyway- I am getting closer on this project I bought from D.J. and
> thinking about draining the oil and putting in new just because it has sa
t
> several years. I am sure he ran it some from what he told me and I have
> pre-lubed it and ran it a few minutes last summer. still with the same oi
l
> he had in it. it has a good quality K&N oil filter so I have no doubt he
put
> good quality oil in it. but as I expect to be flying it before too much
> longer I'd like to replace it with new oil just because it has set idle
> several years.doubt it got much condensation in Arizona or here in the dr
y
> Texas panhandle either.I see in the Wyn manual he suggests using 10W40
> Rotella T for break-in and then he says Amsoil 10/30 synthetic is his
> choice. I plan on running mostly 100 LL fuel in it at least for the near
> future and wondering what is a good oil to deal with the leaded fuel.the
> Corvair may not have any lead problem!
>
> s but I remember reading about it being an issue in the Rotax 912 or 914
> engines with certain oils.Raymond
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292728#292728
>
>
> ==========
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target=
"_blank">ht
> http://forums.ma - List Contribution Web Site;
> &nb; <http://forums.matronics.com>http:==========
=============
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
>
> *
>
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> *
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: cheap Stromberg |
no that's not the one-I'm sure it's over now.anyway I have a good one that has
been rebuilt on mine.just wanted to give somebody a heads up in case they needed
it. but I saw it too late to get the word out.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292809#292809
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: cheap Stromberg |
Yeah... other than the photo being upside-down, that carb should work on our engines.
It's a core and will need to be overhauled.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292812#292812
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: On the subject of oil... |
Aeroshell W100 SAE50.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292813#292813
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long |
Rick,
With all due respect, I disagree to a certain point. Homebuilding a
plans-only airplane is not an inherently dangerous activity in and of
itself if that aircraft has a proven track record and is constructed
to plans using the specified materials. When we start deviating from
the intentions and specifications laid forth by the designer, that is
where we tend to encounter a higher level of risk.
Certain substitutions can be calculated and proven to be safe,
indeed. Wood choice can sometimes be one of those instances, when
chosen carefully, and with an understanding of the properties and
limits of the substitution.
Engine choice can also be a safe substitution when the chosen engine
has a proven track record of safety and reliability. From my
observation, and the experience of others, a poor choice of engine can
have fatal results.
I guess my point is that if you build the plane as designed, or in a
proven configuration, using proven methods and materials, the overall
risk is relatively low. But why go and mess the whole thing up by
using an engine with a track record of poor performance and
unreliability? I'm not pointing fingers at the Corvair, I'm painting
a broad stroke.
There are a lot of people who know a lot more than I do about Corvairs
who can answer the question of reliability a lot better than I can.
All I know is that if it's my butt that the engine is keeping up in
the air, it'd better be a good one.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote:
> <at7000ft@gmail.com>
>
> Totally agree. We are talking about taking on increased risk here.
> Using units of ROEDUs (Risk Of Emminent Death Units) I would calculate
> the following:
>
> Going from no General Aviation activity to building and flying a plans
> built vintage 1929 aircraft (with no prior aircraft building
> experience)
> - 500 ROEDUs.
>
> Going from building and flying a plans built vintage 1929 aircraft
> with a "Real" aircraft engine to auto conversion engine
> - 1 ROEDU.
>
> Not saying home building is all that risky, just that aviation vs.
> auto engine choice pales compared to the choice of entering the plans
> built homebuilding/flying activity in the first place.
>
> rick
>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Jim <jimboyer@hughes.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well said Gary. That explanation probably fits most of us building
>> a Piet and whatever non-ac parts we use. Being another Corvair,
>> doug fir Piet builder I'm going to frame your message.
>> Thanks,
>> Jim B.
>>
>> Jim Boyer
>> Santa Rosa, CA
>> Pietenpol on wheels
>> Tail surfaces done
>> Wing ribs done
>> Corvair engine
>>
>>
>> On Mar 31, 2010, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> Jack (et al),
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Corvair vs. Continental - long |
In real estate they say...
Location, location, location.
When building a plane its ...
Build to plans, build to plans, build to plans.
Jeff Wilson
N899WT ( brand new N #)
St. Louis, MO
Message 23
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| Subject: | reliability and safety/ risks |
The two things that kill more people than crank-snapping incidents, poor workmanship,
and using inferior building materials are fuel starvation and flying into weather
you
had no bidness flying into in the first place.
Just recently a friend e-mailed me about a student and instructor who got killed
in a Cessna
150 that was perfectly airworthy with a perfectly qualified instructor aboard.
They had the
fuel selector OFF on takeoff.
How many times have you guys taxied out and had the engine quit on you because
you forgot to
turn your fuel valve on ? I have. At least four times since getting my license
30 years
ago. It would have been really ugly happening about 75 feet over the telephone
wires on takeoff.
Weather too...holy moly is weather scary. When flying to Brodhead I landed in
Chicago last July
at Romeoville/Lewis U. Airport for fuel and checked out the weather computer loop
and saw a wide
and yellow and red/green band of heavy precip closing in on Brodhead from the NW.
I calculated
that if I launched for Brodhead that cold front and I might (or might not have)
have met in
mid air but it was like throwing a dart so I stood down, got a rental car for cheap
and slept
in a Motel 6 with my Red Lobster meal to go watching the tv weather. Yikes !
It got ugly
there at Brodhead Friday evening according to my compadres and Infidels and though
I felt bad
they all had to endure that in a tent, I was glad my plane was tucked in next to
a Citation in
a steel hangar !
Mike C.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long |
What I really meant to say, and as Mike mentioned, based on accident
statistics piloting ability is far more important than the machine you
fly in (and it's engine type).
rick
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Wayne Bressler
<wayne@taildraggersinc.com> wrote:
> <wayne@taildraggersinc.com>
>
> Rick,
>
> With all due respect, I disagree to a certain point. Homebuilding a
> plans-only airplane is not an inherently dangerous activity in and of itself
> if that aircraft has a proven track record and is constructed to plans using
> the specified materials. When we start deviating from the intentions and
> specifications laid forth by the designer, that is where we tend to
> encounter a higher level of risk.
>
> Certain substitutions can be calculated and proven to be safe, indeed. Wood
> choice can sometimes be one of those instances, when chosen carefully, and
> with an understanding of the properties and limits of the substitution.
>
> Engine choice can also be a safe substitution when the chosen engine has a
> proven track record of safety and reliability. From my observation, and the
> experience of others, a poor choice of engine can have fatal results.
>
> I guess my point is that if you build the plane as designed, or in a proven
> configuration, using proven methods and materials, the overall risk is
> relatively low. But why go and mess the whole thing up by using an engine
> with a track record of poor performance and unreliability? I'm not pointing
> fingers at the Corvair, I'm painting a broad stroke.
>
> There are a lot of people who know a lot more than I do about Corvairs who
> can answer the question of reliability a lot better than I can. All I know
> is that if it's my butt that the engine is keeping up in the air, it'd
> better be a good one.
>
> Wayne Bressler Jr.
> Taildraggers, Inc.
> taildraggersinc.com
>
> On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Totally agree. We are talking about taking on increased risk here.
>> Using units of ROEDUs (Risk Of Emminent Death Units) I would calculate
>> the following:
>>
>> Going from no General Aviation activity to building and flying a plans
>> built vintage 1929 aircraft (with no prior aircraft building
>> experience)
>> - 500 ROEDUs.
>>
>> Going from building and flying a plans built vintage 1929 aircraft
>> with a "Real" aircraft engine to auto conversion engine
>> - 1 ROEDU.
>>
>> Not saying home building is all that risky, just that aviation vs.
>> auto engine choice pales compared to the choice of entering the plans
>> built homebuilding/flying activity in the first place.
>>
>> rick
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Jim <jimboyer@hughes.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well said Gary. That explanation probably fits most of us building a Piet
>>> and whatever non-ac parts we use. Being another Corvair, doug fir Piet
>>> builder I'm going to frame your message.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jim B.
>>>
>>> Jim Boyer
>>> Santa Rosa, CA
>>> Pietenpol on wheels
>>> Tail surfaces done
>>> Wing ribs done
>>> Corvair engine
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 31, 2010, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jack (et al),
>>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 25
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| Subject: | Phase 1 update NX866BC |
Today I loaded the Piet up to gross wt of 1150 lbs with 200 lbs strapped
to the front seat. I was able to find enough scrap lead and iron to fit
into a sturdy canvas tool bag. I could tell a difference in the airplane
just pushing it out of the hangar. The landing gear bungees were even
stretched out about 1/4 in more than with an empty front seat. I was as
nervous as the first flight. Taxi and takeoff were uneventful, although
I used more runway lifting off. I rechecked my best climb speed, and
was still able to get 400 FPM at 60 MPH, 350 FPM at 65 mph. Sixty was
my best rate of climb with just me in it too. I have a Sensenich CK
72X40 climb prop, and it is working out well I guess. Stalls were as
uneventful as before and happened at 36 mph, about what I expected. I
need to add a little bit of right thrust to the motor mount, as I'm
still needing to hold some right rudder in level flight (don't need any
rudder power off). The weather in Florida has been beautiful this week
I've been flying my butt off trying to make it to Sun-N-Fun, but I have
20 hours on it now, and all the important flight testing is done. I'm
still not sure what days I will be there. The Pres is planning a trip
to Kennedy Space Center April 15 (Thurs), and if he does that will shut
down my airport. Friday is looking good to me. What days are the Big
Piets going to be there? It would be great if we could get 4 Piets
lined up in Homebuilders Corner.
Ben Charvet
NX866BC
Message 26
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| Subject: | Corvair vs. Continental - long |
"ROEDUs"? I think we've been Mike Cuyed, again....
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done'
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair vs. Continental - long
Totally agree. We are talking about taking on increased risk here.
Using units of ROEDUs (Risk Of Emminent Death Units) I would calculate
the following:
Going from no General Aviation activity to building and flying a plans
built vintage 1929 aircraft (with no prior aircraft building
experience)
- 500 ROEDUs.
Going from building and flying a plans built vintage 1929 aircraft
with a "Real" aircraft engine to auto conversion engine
- 1 ROEDU.
Not saying home building is all that risky, just that aviation vs.
auto engine choice pales compared to the choice of entering the plans
built homebuilding/flying activity in the first place.
rick
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Jim <jimboyer@hughes.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well said Gary. That explanation probably fits most of us building a Piet
and whatever non-ac parts we use. Being another Corvair, doug fir Piet
builder I'm going to frame your message.
> Thanks,
> Jim B.
>
> Jim Boyer
> Santa Rosa, CA
> Pietenpol on wheels
> Tail surfaces done
> Wing ribs done
> Corvair engine
>
>
> On Mar 31, 2010, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Jack (et al),
>
> Here is my debate:
>
> You, and others, have said things that have caused me to pause and
consider my decisions, and sometimes change my path. As always, you are the
epitome of common sense and good judgment.or are you? I know that you know
spam can drivers that look at you in your little home-made airplane
(exquisite as it is, even with its reliable engine) and say, if not to you
at least to themselves, I would/could never do that. Youre going to fly
it where? To Brodhead? Or, how about the guys who say flying a taildragger
is too dangerous! And all of those spam can drivers know ground pounders who
say, Youre a pilot? You fly a Cessna/Piper/Beech? Isnt that scary? I
could never do that!
>
> The great mathematician, Augusta De Morgan, said:
>
> "Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
> And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
> And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on,
> While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on."
>
> So, everyone has their limits. When we make the decision to build an
experimental airplane, we set ourselves on a less traveled pathbut thats
just the beginning
>
> Consider the individual who decides:
>
> To build an airplane,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane designed in 1929,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead
of A/C Spruce,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead
of A/C Spruce, and fir spars,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead
of A/C Spruce, with fir spars, and wooden struts,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead
of A/C Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, and a non-A/C engine,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead
of A/C Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, a non-A/C engine, with a
home-made prop,
> To build a wood & fabric airplane, designed in 1929, with Poplar instead
of A/C Spruce, with fir spars, wooden struts, a non-A/C engine, a home-made
prop, painted with house paint instead of dope,
> ad infinitum.
>
> At which point would most builders stopat which point would you stop? My
ex-father-in-law, insurance agent, thought I was nuts to start flying in the
first place (age 17)!
>
> Am I nuts? Maybe. Nuts about flying.
>
> Am I suicidal? Definitely not!
>
> I fully respect your opinion about A/C engines if for no other reason than
you are vastly more experienced than I. But this project has been a series
of path choices for me, and, for some reason, I keep choosing the
less-traveled path.
>
> In the end, I expect that I will have many, many taxi hours and ground
runs of my crank-breaking Corvair, not that that will expose any/all
problems, but the actual take-off should be a non-event. For me, the choice
of using a Corvair was a merely a result of choosing a less-traveled
pathhaving more hp, a smoother less expensive engine, were just fortunate
by-products. Meeting William Wynne was a God-send!
>
> If you know a risk management expert, please give him my contact info!
.or, are we ALL beyond risk management?
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> 18 ribs done
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 2:49 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for
sale
>
> I have a total of $7,000 in my A-65, but that included NEW Millenium
Cylinders and pistons, which was $3400 of that total. I also sent the
crankcasr out to Divco for overhauling, and the crankshaft and connecting
rods were overhauled by Aircraft Specialties. I bought a new camshaft, and
new Slick magnetos. I did the overhaul myself, under the supervision of an
A&P/IA. I could have done it much cheaper, but I like reliability, which is
what started this thread.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for
sale
>
> To play devil's advocate: the Corvair project for $6,000 is everything
needed to assemble the Wynne based Corvair conversion, all parts reworked,
overhauled, or new. How much did you have in your A-65 after the cost of
acquisition, rework, new parts, etc? Just curious... ;)
>
> Ryan
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
> I think Bernard liked to experiment. At the time he used that Corvair, it
was far cheaper than an aircraft engine. That is no longer the case (the
email that started this thread was about a Corvair PROJECT that was for sale
for $6,000, which is four times as much as I paid for my Continental A-65,
and is nearly half what Ive got in the Lycoming O-540 that Ill put in the
RV-10). I owned a Corvair for several years (we bought it new in 1966, so
it wasnt worn out when we got it, although it was 3 years later) and
learned a great deal about the reliability of both the engine and the
car. I remember that the Corvair was used in one of my machine design
classes in college as an example of how NOT to design a belt-drive system.
>
> But these airplanes are licensed as Experimental, so go for it. I just
prefer aircraft engines for aircraft, and car engines for cars. The design
requirements are totally different.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:50 PM
>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for
sale
>
> I plan to Jack. I have 12 hours on the fly off now and everything is
working great so far. By the way, Are you suggesting that Bernie made a
mistake by using the corvair as an alternative engine? Cheers, Gardiner
>
>
> From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 8:33:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for
sale
> Does that mean you are going to fly it to Brodhead this year, Gardiner?
My low power but utterly reliable Continental has made the trip 3 times now.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of airlion
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:04 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for
sale
>
> Well Jack, at least my boat anchor will get me over those high hills west
of you. Gardiner
>
> From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:21:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: William Wynne Corvair conversion parts for
sale
> Wow! An A65 with only 1505 Total Time? Thats pretty incredible.
>
> So having sold that Chevrolet boat-anchor you now have some funds
available to purchase a flying Pietenpol? Congratulations, Ryan!
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?P
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co===
=============http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forum
s.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listtp://forums
.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet
enpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 27
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I see, no additional training needed, unless it flies slow....or fast.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
18 ribs done
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dortch,
Steven D MAJ NG NG
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: My cousin's LSA
<steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
This is from the AOPA Newsletter about a change in LSA regulations:
"Another correction would require pilots operating under a sport pilot
certificate to receive training and an endorsement to operate light sport
airplanes with a maximum level flight speed (Vh) less than 87 KCAS. The FAA
issued the change because of safety concerns regarding pilots who had little
experience flying slow, high-drag airplanes."
See, those slow planes are dangerous!.
;-}
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 28
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| Subject: | Phase 1 update NX866BC |
I'm still planning to be there Friday through Sunday morning, Ben.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:50 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Phase 1 update NX866BC
Today I loaded the Piet up to gross wt of 1150 lbs with 200 lbs strapped
to the front seat. I was able to find enough scrap lead and iron to fit
into a sturdy canvas tool bag. I could tell a difference in the airplane
just pushing it out of the hangar. The landing gear bungees were even
stretched out about 1/4 in more than with an empty front seat. I was as
nervous as the first flight. Taxi and takeoff were uneventful, although
I used more runway lifting off. I rechecked my best climb speed, and
was still able to get 400 FPM at 60 MPH, 350 FPM at 65 mph. Sixty was
my best rate of climb with just me in it too. I have a Sensenich CK
72X40 climb prop, and it is working out well I guess. Stalls were as
uneventful as before and happened at 36 mph, about what I expected. I
need to add a little bit of right thrust to the motor mount, as I'm
still needing to hold some right rudder in level flight (don't need any
rudder power off). The weather in Florida has been beautiful this week
I've been flying my butt off trying to make it to Sun-N-Fun, but I have
20 hours on it now, and all the important flight testing is done. I'm
still not sure what days I will be there. The Pres is planning a trip
to Kennedy Space Center April 15 (Thurs), and if he does that will shut
down my airport. Friday is looking good to me. What days are the Big
Piets going to be there? It would be great if we could get 4 Piets
lined up in Homebuilders Corner.
Ben Charvet
NX866BC
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: reliability and safety/ risks |
I, too, have forgotten the fuel selector valve. Because of this, I am
a HUGE proponent of plumbing fuel lines that are as short and direct
as possible, with the fewest number of turns, etc. The plumbing that
came with our Piet was way, way too complicated. Not only could it
result in fuel starvation even with several gallons on board, but it
also allowed several minutes of run time if the fuel valve was shut
off.
The way we have it now, all but about a quart is usable fuel AND run
tum if the valve is left off is maybe 30 secs or less.
>(GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
>The two things that kill more people than crank-snapping incidents,
>poor workmanship,
>and using inferior building materials are fuel starvation and flying
>into weather you
>had no bidness flying into in the first place.
>
>Just recently a friend e-mailed me about a student and instructor
>who got killed in a Cessna
>150 that was perfectly airworthy with a perfectly qualified
>instructor aboard. They had the
>fuel selector OFF on takeoff.
>
>How many times have you guys taxied out and had the engine quit on
>you because you forgot to
>turn your fuel valve on ? I have. At least four times since
>getting my license 30 years
>ago. It would have been really ugly happening about 75 feet over
>the telephone wires on takeoff.
>
>Weather too...holy moly is weather scary. When flying to Brodhead
>I landed in Chicago last July
>at Romeoville/Lewis U. Airport for fuel and checked out the weather
>computer loop and saw a wide
>and yellow and red/green band of heavy precip closing in on Brodhead
>from the NW. I calculated
>that if I launched for Brodhead that cold front and I might (or
>might not have) have met in
>mid air but it was like throwing a dart so I stood down, got a
>rental car for cheap and slept
>in a Motel 6 with my Red Lobster meal to go watching the tv weather.
>Yikes ! It got ugly
>there at Brodhead Friday evening according to my compadres and
>Infidels and though I felt bad
>they all had to endure that in a tent, I was glad my plane was
>tucked in next to a Citation in
>a steel hangar !
>
>Mike C.
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair vs. Continental - long |
Rick,
Agreed. Decision making is also very important.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled Pietenpol programming.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
On Apr 2, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote:
> <at7000ft@gmail.com>
>
> What I really meant to say, and as Mike mentioned, based on accident
> statistics piloting ability is far more important than the machine you
> fly in (and it's engine type).
>
> rick
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Wayne Bressler
> <wayne@taildraggersinc.com> wrote:
>> <wayne@taildraggersinc.com>
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> With all due respect, I disagree to a certain point. Homebuilding a
>> plans-only airplane is not an inherently dangerous activity in and
>> of itself
>> if that aircraft has a proven track record and is constructed to
>> plans using
>> the specified materials. When we start deviating from the
>> intentions and
>> specifications laid forth by the designer, that is where we tend to
>> encounter a higher level of risk.
>>
>> Certain substitutions can be calculated and proven to be safe,
>> indeed. Wood
>> choice can sometimes be one of those instances, when chosen
>> carefully, and
>> with an understanding of the properties and limits of the
>> substitution.
>>
>> Engine choice can also be a safe substitution when the chosen
>> engine has a
>> proven track record of safety and reliability. From my
>> observation, and the
>> experience of others, a poor choice of engine can have fatal results.
>>
>> I guess my point is that if you build the plane as designed, or in
>> a proven
>> configuration, using proven methods and materials, the overall risk
>> is
>> relatively low. But why go and mess the whole thing up by using an
>> engine
>> with a track record of poor performance and unreliability? I'm not
>> pointing
>> fingers at the Corvair, I'm painting a broad stroke.
>>
>> There are a lot of people who know a lot more than I do about
>> Corvairs who
>> can answer the question of reliability a lot better than I can.
>> All I know
>> is that if it's my butt that the engine is keeping up in the air,
>> it'd
>> better be a good one.
>>
>> Wayne Bressler Jr.
>> Taildraggers, Inc.
>> taildraggersinc.com
>>
>> On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Totally agree. We are talking about taking on increased risk here.
>>> Using units of ROEDUs (Risk Of Emminent Death Units) I would
>>> calculate
>>> the following:
>>>
>>> Going from no General Aviation activity to building and flying a
>>> plans
>>> built vintage 1929 aircraft (with no prior aircraft building
>>> experience)
>>> - 500 ROEDUs.
>>>
>>> Going from building and flying a plans built vintage 1929 aircraft
>>> with a "Real" aircraft engine to auto conversion engine
>>> - 1 ROEDU.
>>>
>>> Not saying home building is all that risky, just that aviation vs.
>>> auto engine choice pales compared to the choice of entering the
>>> plans
>>> built homebuilding/flying activity in the first place.
>>>
>>> rick
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Jim <jimboyer@hughes.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well said Gary. That explanation probably fits most of us
>>>> building a Piet
>>>> and whatever non-ac parts we use. Being another Corvair, doug fir
>>>> Piet
>>>> builder I'm going to frame your message.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jim B.
>>>>
>>>> Jim Boyer
>>>> Santa Rosa, CA
>>>> Pietenpol on wheels
>>>> Tail surfaces done
>>>> Wing ribs done
>>>> Corvair engine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 31, 2010, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jack (et al),
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
> Castle Rock, Colorado
>
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Corvair crank failures etc |
Guys you can all relax, from what I have gathered Dad's crank failure was one of
(if not THE only) the only corvair crank failure on a Pietenpol. (higher turning,
3400+rpm corvairs on KR2's, etc have had a few more) Our monday morning
quarter backing, showed that the radius's were too sharp on the rod and main journals,
our fault for not catching it first, the original engine we had on the
piet was supposedly gone through with Bernard Pietenpol, 20+ years before dad
bought it, of course I can not confirm that. Secondly, a helicoil repair DID
cause detonation, and or preignition, which broke the poor ole crankshaft.
It sure was fun learning to quickly dismantle the wings, and trailer it home before
the news choppers showed up. If any of you are uncertin as to weather or
not you want to use a corvair, I would use another corvair, but I would use the
new 5th bearing design to take the prop loads off of the tiny stock thrust
bearing. And dont be fooled by
any engine aircraft or conversion, they all can and all WILL quit some day, expect
it at all times, leave yourself an out, when and if it does put the nose
down and fly it to the crash. Crank failure, fuel problem, camshaft rodd bolts,
spinner comes off, etc etc etc, only takes one of them to ruin your day.
"This is Paul Harvey, goood Day"
Shad
Message 32
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We use old crisco out of the Mr Fry, after its too dark to cook french fries in
again.
"Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool"
Just Joking, rotella T 15-40
Shad
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