---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/03/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:39 AM - Re: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear (Clif Dawson) 2. 06:10 AM - Re: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear (gboothe5@comcast.net) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Aluminum cabane insert material (Michael Perez) 4. 06:51 AM - Re: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear (Jim Markle) 5. 12:09 PM - Re: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear (Bill Church) 6. 01:46 PM - Re: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 7. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: spar butt straps (Ken Chambers) 8. 02:50 PM - Re: Aluminum cabane insert material (Ed G.) 9. 03:55 PM - Re: Aluminum cabane insert material (Bill Church) 10. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material (Gary Boothe) 11. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material (Ed G.) 12. 06:01 PM - corvair (airlion) 13. 06:33 PM - Supplementary plans and Keri-Ann Price (Russ) 14. 07:12 PM - Re: corvair (Gary Boothe) 15. 07:54 PM - Re: Supplementary plans and Keri-Ann Price (echobravo4) 16. 08:05 PM - Re: Supplementary plans and Keri-Ann Price (bubbleboy) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:50 AM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear You're welcome Chris. I'm sending some pics of my new ( to me ) tailwheel. The first is with the small wheel and modified arms to hold it. The original was twice as big. The other two show it with the horns lengthened to match the rudder horn. Now it tracks the same as the rudder. Clif Thanks for the inspiration. It worked great. Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear From: gboothe5@comcast.net Clif, I gotta say, in the 80 year history of Pietenpols, you may be the only Pietenpoler building amongst the ferns and rhododendrons! I'll bet you also have a small water feature, for further piece and tranquility... Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:15 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum cabane insert material I was pondering the use of a hard wood in place of the usual aluminum inser t. Since the fuselage fitting is bolted through the spruce longeron, I thou ght that maybe wood would be fine as the insert as well. My plan was to do exactly what you said Clif...at the fuselage fitting, bolt through the stee l fitting, through the aluminum strut, then through- the wood insert. Of course, above-that, just as with the-metal inserts, there would be anot her bolt to secure the wood to the strut.- Ed mentioned concerns about ma terial around the bolt hole; I can make the fittings as long as I want, thu s I can have as much material around the tops and bottoms of the bolts as n eeded. - My concerns now are with making sure the wood will not rot, mold, crack, sp lit, etc. I can varnish the wood prior to inserting it into the strut, but that would effect the fit some after cutting it.- There is no easy way to look inside the strut after it is installed to inspect either.--I now concur it would be best to go with the standard aluminum type insert. - - -- On Sun, 5/2/10, Clif Dawson wrote: From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum cabane insert material #yiv1659257443 .hmmessage P { PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TO P:0px;} #yiv1659257443 .hmmessage { FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;FONT-SIZE:10pt;} One question, are you going to bolt to the fuselage fittings-through the cabane itself? If so then why do you want anything in there? The only way an insert is goi ng to add strength in tension is if that insert has at least one more bolt through it and the strut an inch or so above the bottom hole. This is a good idea with aluminum. In this case it's best to use a bar of aluminum. - It's not like using wood struts. What you do there is add metal plates to t he outside with another bolt 1 1/2" above the one that bolts the strut to the fuselage . This icreases the area of the "plug" sides thus increasing the tearout resistanc e dramaticaly. - In both cases the idea is to strengthen the strut. - Clif There is only about 5/16" of material below-the bolt hole on the bottom f itting (and above on the top fitting). With the loads and shock loads appli ed-by the strut the bolt would pull out the small chunk of wood below the bolt along the grain lines.- You would be much better off with-metal i nserts.-- Ed G. - - - - - > > I believe I have my posting woes fixed, so I am trying this again. > > I am using aluminum cabanes and am curious if a hard wood, (oak/ash) woul d be suitable for the inserts. I know most use some type of steel or alumin um, but since the fittings attach to soft spruce and ply wood gussets on th e fuselage end, why not wood inside the cabanes? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:01 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear And during Vancouver winters....there is a LOT of snow! So Clif also takes the award for extremes! do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: gboothe5@comcast.net >Sent: May 3, 2010 8:05 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear > > >Clif, > >I gotta say, in the 80 year history of Pietenpols, you may be the only Pietenpoler building amongst the ferns and rhododendrons! I'll bet you also have a small water feature, for further piece and tranquility... > >Gary >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Clif Dawson" >Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 00:30:46 >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear From: "Bill Church" Well, not enough snow this winter when they hosted the Winter Olympics... Jim wrote: And during Vancouver winters....there is a LOT of snow! BC DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296597#296597 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:41 PM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear Cliff, Are you Vancouver B.C. or Vancouver WA? I recognize the vegetation especially, the moss growing on the ground from growing up in the Northwest. Brian SLC-UT do no archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear And during Vancouver winters....there is a LOT of snow! So Clif also takes the award for extremes! do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: gboothe5@comcast.net >Sent: May 3, 2010 8:05 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear > > >Clif, > >I gotta say, in the 80 year history of Pietenpols, you may be the only Pietenpoler building amongst the ferns and rhododendrons! I'll bet you also have a small water feature, for further piece and tranquility... > >Gary >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Clif Dawson" >Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 00:30:46 >To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Metal pieces for wooden landing gear > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar butt straps From: Ken Chambers Thanks everyone. Didn't realize drill presses are so cheap. Might be simpler than drilling guides. Question: What if you made the straps just like the plans and then closed up the gap in the 3-piece wing by extending the plywood stiffener into the gap? And then cut openings in the plywood for bolt access? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Clif Dawson wrote: > The image here shows a small bench model drill press > being used to drill the holes for the landing gear plates. > You can do the same with anything that can be jigged > up on your bench. > > > Drill press would be a real good idea, > rick > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:40 PM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum cabane insert material When I responded I wasn't thinking that you had planned to drill through th e aluminum strut=2C I was thinking you wanted to leave the wood sticking ou t like they do with lift struts and just drill through the wood. Aluminum s truts are fairly thick on the sides where the flat is on the inside and alu minum is a very good bearing material. So=2C if you made the fuselage fitti ngs slightly longer you may not need any filler block inside or If you were worried about the bolt pressure collapseing the tubing you could just put a spacer inside. Varnished or epoxy coated harwood should work for that I w ould think. Cabane loads are really not all that high and being under the w ing they shouldn't get much moisture inside. Ed G. From: speedbrake@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum cabane insert material I was pondering the use of a hard wood in place of the usual aluminum inser t. Since the fuselage fitting is bolted through the spruce longeron=2C I th ought that maybe wood would be fine as the insert as well. My plan was to d o exactly what you said Clif...at the fuselage fitting=2C bolt through the steel fitting=2C through the aluminum strut=2C then through the wood inser t. Of course=2C above that=2C just as with the metal inserts=2C there would be another bolt to secure the wood to the strut. Ed mentioned concerns ab out material around the bolt hole=3B I can make the fittings as long as I w ant=2C thus I can have as much material around the tops and bottoms of the bolts as needed. My concerns now are with making sure the wood will not rot=2C mold=2C crack =2C split=2C etc. I can varnish the wood prior to inserting it into the str ut=2C but that would effect the fit some after cutting it. There is no eas y way to look inside the strut after it is installed to inspect either. I now concur it would be best to go with the standard aluminum type insert. -- On Sun=2C 5/2/10=2C Clif Dawson wrote: From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum cabane insert material One question=2C are you going to bolt to the fuselage fittings through the cabane itself? If so then why do you want anything in there? The only way an insert is goi ng to add strength in tension is if that insert has at least one more bolt through it and the strut an inch or so above the bottom hole. This is a good idea with aluminum. In this case it's best to use a bar of aluminum. It's not like using wood struts. What you do there is add metal plates to t he outside with another bolt 1 1/2" above the one that bolts the strut to the fuselage . This icreases the area of the "plug" sides thus increasing the tearout resistanc e dramaticaly. In both cases the idea is to strengthen the strut. Clif There is only about 5/16" of material below the bolt hole on the bottom fit ting (and above on the top fitting). With the loads and shock loads applied by the strut the bolt would pull out the small chunk of wood below the bol t along the grain lines. You would be much better off with metal inserts. Ed G. > > I believe I have my posting woes fixed=2C so I am trying this again. > > I am using aluminum cabanes and am curious if a hard wood=2C (oak/ash) wo uld be suitable for the inserts. I know most use some type of steel or alum inum=2C but since the fittings attach to soft spruce and ply wood gussets o n the fuselage end=2C why not wood inside the cabanes? " rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenp ol-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inb ox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:00 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material From: "Bill Church" This topic is confusing me. First of all I don't understand why one would want to use hardwood inside an aluminum strut. Most of the logical reasons not to do this have already been mentioned. But now I'm confused by this latest posting. Ed wrote: "I was thinking you wanted to leave the wood sticking out like they do with lift struts and just drill through the wood." This statement creates two new questions in my mind: 1. Who are "they" that leave wood sticking out of aluminum lift struts? I don't think I've ever seen anything like that. anyone got a photo to illustrate what that would look like? 2. Since "they" only drill through the wood, and not the metal, does that mean that the wood is NOT mechanically fastened to the aluminum? What is it - a friction fit? or glued? I must be misunderstanding something here (I hope). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296622#296622 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:22 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material Bill, I don't feel so bad - I was confused, too, but blamed it on the beer (one beer all weekend!). Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:50 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material This topic is confusing me. First of all I don't understand why one would want to use hardwood inside an aluminum strut. Most of the logical reasons not to do this have already been mentioned. But now I'm confused by this latest posting. Ed wrote: "I was thinking you wanted to leave the wood sticking out like they do with lift struts and just drill through the wood." This statement creates two new questions in my mind: 1. Who are "they" that leave wood sticking out of aluminum lift struts? I don't think I've ever seen anything like that. anyone got a photo to illustrate what that would look like? 2. Since "they" only drill through the wood, and not the metal, does that mean that the wood is NOT mechanically fastened to the aluminum? What is it - a friction fit? or glued? I must be misunderstanding something here (I hope). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296622#296622 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:53 PM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material well the whole thing was confusing to me too...but THEY usually bolt a squa re aluminum or steel insert into an aluminum lift strut which sticks out of the strut and is drilled for a bolt. Thats what I origionally thought he wanted to do with wood instead of metal . No wonder no one else tried to answer LOL.. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum cabane insert material > From: billspiet@sympatico.ca > Date: Mon=2C 3 May 2010 15:50:27 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > ca> > > This topic is confusing me. > First of all I don't understand why one would want to use hardwood inside an aluminum strut. Most of the logical reasons not to do this have already been mentioned. > But now I'm confused by this latest posting. > Ed wrote: "I was thinking you wanted to leave the wood sticking out like they do with lift struts and just drill through the wood." > This statement creates two new questions in my mind: > 1. Who are "they" that leave wood sticking out of aluminum lift struts? I don't think I've ever seen anything like that. anyone got a photo to illus trate what that would look like? > 2. Since "they" only drill through the wood=2C and not the metal=2C does that mean that the wood is NOT mechanically fastened to the aluminum? What is it - a friction fit? or glued? > I must be misunderstanding something here (I hope). > > > Bill C. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296622#296622 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox .. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:46 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair Well guys, after 17 hrs flying time my engine started missing and loosing power. I made it to the ground ok and oil temp was climbing sky hi., and loosing oil just a little. Today, I did a compression and leak test and both failed on number 3 cylinder. Since the get go I have had a leak under that area so now I know why. I had replaced the oil pan but that did not help. I am in the process of taking the rt. side head off to check for a blown gasket or any other anamoly. I did notice that the upper head bolts had not been torqued as I could almost turn them by hand. To be continued. Gardiner Mason. PS I hope I can get this resolved so I can fly to Brodhead. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Supplementary plans and Keri-Ann Price From: "Russ" Hi all, I'm a new builder starting out in Australia. I'm starting on the ribs, and am trying to get a hold of the supplementary plans that are floating around. I'm also trying to get in touch with J.K.Wills as I'd like to use the UK plans and Wills' wing design. I'm mainly after Keri-Ann Price's plans for the passenger door and her other mods, but since geocities closed last year I've got no idea how to get in touch with her. Anyone know of an updated site? Also, are there any other plans people recommend taking a look at? All I've decided firmly on is that I'm using the Riblett 612 profile, and will likely go down the corvair path. As a last aside, I know there's a Piet down here in Tasmania, but I have no idea who built it and I'm yet to try the SAAA. Anyone know some details? Ta! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296641#296641 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:45 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: corvair Gardiner, Glad you got down safely. Be sure to keep us updated... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 5:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair Well guys, after 17 hrs flying time my engine started missing and loosing power. I made it to the ground ok and oil temp was climbing sky hi., and loosing oil just a little. Today, I did a compression and leak test and both failed on number 3 cylinder. Since the get go I have had a leak under that area so now I know why. I had replaced the oil pan but that did not help. I am in the process of taking the rt. side head off to check for a blown gasket or any other anamoly. I did notice that the upper head bolts had not been torqued as I could almost turn them by hand. To be continued. Gardiner Mason. PS I hope I can get this resolved so I can fly to Brodhead. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Supplementary plans and Keri-Ann Price From: "echobravo4" Hi Russ, Welcome- You can reach Keri-ann at this email: keriannprice@hotmail.com Her website is down put she can send you some pdf files with info Earl -------- I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296648#296648 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Supplementary plans and Keri-Ann Price From: "bubbleboy" Hi Russ....welcome aboard! Im in Tamworth, Australia. I have also just started and I have Jims plans and email etc here. Contact me through my website and I can give you all the goss on where to get materials etc. Scotty www.scottyspietenpol.com -------- Scotty Tamworth, Australia Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=296649#296649 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.