Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:09 AM - Re: Re: plans (Jack Phillips)
2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: plans (John Recine)
3. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: plans (Michael Perez)
4. 07:08 AM - Flaperons... (Jeff wilson)
5. 07:35 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Michael Perez)
6. 07:35 AM - Re: Flaperons... (JERRY GROGAN)
7. 07:52 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Wayne Bressler)
8. 08:17 AM - Re: horiz stab capstrip question (Bill Church)
9. 08:42 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Bill Church)
10. 09:09 AM - Re: horiz stab capstrip question (GliderMike)
11. 09:30 AM - Re: horiz stab capstrip question (Bill Church)
12. 09:44 AM - Re: plans (GliderMike)
13. 10:01 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Dan Yocum)
14. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: plans (Ryan Mueller)
15. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Flaperons... (Tim Willis)
16. 10:55 AM - Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (ldmill)
17. 11:33 AM - Ailerflappers (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
18. 11:44 AM - Re: Ailerflappers (Don Emch)
19. 11:44 AM - Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (Dan Yocum)
20. 11:48 AM - Re: Ailerflappers (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
21. 11:48 AM - Re: Re: horiz stab capstrip question (Rick Holland)
22. 11:52 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
23. 11:59 AM - Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (Ryan Mueller)
24. 12:11 PM - Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (ldmill)
25. 12:39 PM - Re: Flaperons... (Bill Church)
26. 01:23 PM - Re: Ailerflappers (Jack Phillips)
27. 01:52 PM - Re: Ailerflappers (gboothe5@comcast.net)
28. 01:59 PM - overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
29. 02:12 PM - Re: overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options (bubbleboy)
30. 02:57 PM - Mike's Cuy's DVD (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
31. 03:17 PM - A question about fuselage cross-pieces (Bill Church)
32. 03:34 PM - Flap over Flaperons (jeff wilson)
33. 05:01 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons-- now off subject (Tim Willis)
34. 05:09 PM - Re: A question about fuselage cross-pieces (Michael Perez)
35. 05:14 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons (Michael Perez)
36. 05:21 PM - Re: A question about fuselage cross-pieces (Jack Phillips)
37. 05:49 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons (Jeff Boatright)
38. 06:31 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons (Kip and Beth Gardner)
39. 07:23 PM - Re: Ailerflappers (Jim Markle)
Message 1
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Mike, I usually wait for Mike Cuy to say this to new Pietenpol builders, but
he's fallen down on the job so I'll say it:
The best investment you can make when beginning to build a Piet is to buy
the Tony Bongelis books, all four of them: The Sportplane Builder,
Sportplane Construction Techniques, Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on
Engines. Other worthwhile investments are the EAA's book on Aircraft
Welding, Chet Peek's book on the Pietenpol, and Mike Cuy's video on building
and flying a Pietenpol Air Camper. Chuck Gantzer also has a nice video
available. I know Michael Perez is offering DVD's on building hints, but I
haven't seen them, nor have I seen his airplane.
Most of the questions you will have are covered in one or more of those
sources. Anything else you can probably get answered on this forum in the
archives.
Good luck, and "Go Thou, and make Sawdust"
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
chase143(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 12:24 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans
<chase143@aol.com>
Mike,
Welcome aboard, you are in for a great journey building a Piet. Brodhead is
a good time and a great first hand education. If you can swing it; one trip
there and you will say "I can't afford not to go"!
Enjoy the building!
Steve
--------
Steve
www.mypiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298332#298332
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Message 3
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Thank you for the plug on my DVDs Jack.- I own all of the Bingelis books
and I concur with most here, they are a must have. I always forget that I h
ave them and waste time figuring things out on my own, just to find out the
books had the answer all the time. (I STILL need to get them out where I c
an see them every day.)
-
Since Jack mentioned my DVDs, I'll update the list on what is current:
-
5 HINT DVDs now available all with newly improved animated menus and Light
Scribed discs. Original content on the DVDs has not changed. Shipping is fr
ee in contiguous United States. Shipping prices in place for Canada and the
United Kingdom. All others need to use the EMAIL ME page for a quote. I am
currently working on 2 new pages with pictures.- Visit www.karetakeraero
.com to order direct with Pay Pal or credit card.
-
-
Message 4
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Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable?
Jeff Wilson
'niner whiskey tango'
N899WT
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
I personally have not, but I don't know why it would not be a possibility. There
would be a weight penalty, I would guess, but I am sure if you wanted to do
it, you could. I would be very interested to some of your ideas, if you want to
contact me off list with some thoughts and sketches, that would be cool.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
When I purchased mine it had flaps on it. It had been flying for years
like that. I have not flown it that way, but I am going to leave them
on. But I am rebuilding the entire airplane. So it will be awhile before
we know how it handles with them on.
Jerry Grogan
Prairie City, IA
Pieten 38
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff wilson
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 9:08 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons...
Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable?
Jeff Wilson
'niner whiskey tango'
N899WT
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
I'm just curious as to why? For what benefit or change in performance?
I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea. I'm sure it could be done.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
On May 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable?
> Jeff Wilson
> 'niner whiskey tango'
> N899WT
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab capstrip question |
Uhhhh, rivets??? line of edge distance???
The gussets are secured to the frame with adhesive. The nails (optional) are simply
there to hold the gusset in place while the adhesive cures.
If you felt the need for bigger gussets than the plans show, one or two thicknesses
won't make any difference, but as far as I know, there have never been any
issues with the gussets on the plans being undersized. Actually, the gusset
size I drew in red is bigger than the plans show (see attached clip from the plans).
It looks like the gusset plate in the photo is at least 20 thicknesses
oversized (at each end).
By the way, my comments about gusset size aren't specifically in reference to "Airplane
stuff", but rather, to gussets in general. My schooling didn't include
ANY "airplane stuff".
When all else fails, refer to the plans.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298433#298433
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bhp_gusset_131.jpg
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
Lots of people have tried flaperons. Just not on a Pietenpol. :)
By that, I don't mean that no-one has tried it on a Pietenpol, just not "lots of
people".
The better question would be "Why would anyone need flaps on a Pietenpol?".
The basic purpose of flaps is to lower the stall speed. Well, the Piet wing already
has a very slow stall speed, so why bother adding unnecessary complications
and weight, with debatable benefit.
Flaperons make sense on some aircraft, but I don't think the Pietenpol is one of
them.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298434#298434
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab capstrip question |
Bill, looking at the photo with the red line, and the plans, I can see the red
outlined gusset is larger. Where I went to high school, 45 years ago, we didn't
have wood shop, and I've never had the privilege of being around a cabinet
maker or furniture maker, so I'm pretty green on wood working stuff. Looking
at the plans pic, there is more than enough coverage from the gussets to make
the joint strong. If it weren't strong enough, there would be Pietenpols falling
out of the sky, and that hasn't been happening. What little bit of welding
stuff I have done, I've used smaller gussets for reinforcing a corner than used
here, with good success. I tend to overbuild things, because I've had problems
with things breaking because they were slightly under built. A major reason
I chose the Piet for my first airplane project if because there are a large
number of successful builders who are willing to help with advice. I've wanted
a stick and rag airplane for thirty years, and felt the least expensive way
to get one was to build it. With support from successful builders like you,
I will be able to accomplish my goal. I hear "follow the plans," probably more
than any other advice on all of the chat groups. I know that is good advice,
and should be strongly adhered to, but as one who tends to overbuild, it is
sometimes difficult to do. Sort of like the deal, "when you're up to your *#$*
in alligators, it is difficult to remember, the initial objective is to drain
the swamp." The edge distance deal with rivets, is you don't want the metal
ripping out, because the rivet hole was too close to the edge. Same as you
don't drive a nail too close to the edge of a piece of wood. Thanks for your
patience.
--------
Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298437#298437
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab capstrip question |
No problem Mike.
I didn't get to take wood shop in high school either. I always thought I got cheated
there. I've had no formal training in woodworking either. I learned what
little I know about woodworking from watching my Dad (who DID get wood shop in
high school - but that's all), and then trying things. If you're building the
wood fuselage, just follow the plans. Many say that the Piet is overbuilt already
- so resist ANY temptation to beef things up - all it will get you is a
heavy plane.
If you're building a steel tube fuselage, you'll be more on your own since the
plans are "sparse". Lots of details to figure out on your own.
Oh, and my point about mentioning "rivets" was that there aren't really any in
the Piet. (I know, the plans say to attach the tail cable fittings with rivets,
but those don't count)
This List is a great place to learn, with a nice bunch of people. Welcome to the
group, and have fun building.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298440#298440
Message 12
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Videos ordered. Still shopping on books. Need to take more time to get latest
edition of each.
--------
Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298441#298441
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
Flaperons... To bring stall speed from 35 down to 32. And with the
added weight you'll have to increase your approach by 10mph so now
you're landing at 42 mph.
;-)
I'm sure I'll get quote wrong but here goes: keep it simple and build
in lightness.
Dan
--
yocum@gmail.com
On May 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable?
> Jeff Wilson
> 'niner whiskey tango'
> N899WT
>
>
> _
Message 14
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Tony passed on almost a decade ago, so I don't think you need to worry about
any upcoming updates from him. :P
EAA publishes the books, they would have the last editions.
http://www.shopeaa.com/bingelissetof4.aspx
Same thing with Aircraft Welding....last revised in '99. Stop worrying and
start buying! :)
Ryan
do not archive
<http://www.shopeaa.com/bingelissetof4.aspx>
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:44 AM, GliderMike <glidermikeg@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Videos ordered. Still shopping on books. Need to take more time to get
> latest edition of each.
>
> --------
> Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
> GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298441#298441
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
Bill hit the nail on the head. Why add flaps to a Piet?
I have seen some of the earliest work done on flaps by NACA, and they found that
having even the most slippery flaps on the plane slowed the plane down at all
flying speeds, even when the flaps were not deployed. We are talking slightly
more drag having this effect.
A Piet is already very draggy and slow, already has a low stalling speed, and can
really "plop" down in a flare at a 3-point attitude. And the rollout is minimal.
BTW, when I was looking at the NACA flaps info, it was for another airfoil and
project altogether.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>Sent: May 21, 2010 11:42 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flaperons...
>
>
>Lots of people have tried flaperons. Just not on a Pietenpol. :)
>By that, I don't mean that no-one has tried it on a Pietenpol, just not "lots
of people".
>
>
>The better question would be "Why would anyone need flaps on a Pietenpol?".
>The basic purpose of flaps is to lower the stall speed. Well, the Piet wing already
has a very slow stall speed, so why bother adding unnecessary complications
and weight, with debatable benefit.
>Flaperons make sense on some aircraft, but I don't think the Pietenpol is one
of them.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298434#298434
>
>
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Subject: | Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist |
All,
I just purchased a nice GN-1 (N30PP) here in Iowa, and have to get the annual
condition inspection done on it (7 months overdue). Before I take it to an A&P,
I'd like to go over it myself. I'd appreciate it if anybody could send me an
example of one so I could be a little more intelligent about it.
I went through the archives and wasn't able to find one - but may have missed it.
thanks!
Lorin Miller
lorin.miller@emerson.com
Colo, Iowa
GN-1 N30PP
Waiex N81YX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298446#298446
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Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an onion.
Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the drag
is exorbitantly high,
and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to tie your
shoes without
bending over.
Mike C.
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Ailerflappers |
At the end of this video there is a good example of why there are no "slow down"
devices needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAw3-4HK_U
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298452#298452
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Subject: | Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist |
I'm on vacation so I don't have access to my laptop, but there are
*condition inspection* checklists in the archives. Just search for the
right terms.
Ryan has the checklists I use, if you can't find 'em.
--
yocum@gmail.com
On May 21, 2010, at 1:54 PM, ldmill <lorin.miller@emerson.com> wrote:
> >
>
> All,
> I just purchased a nice GN-1 (N30PP) here in Iowa, and have to get
> the annual condition inspection done on it (7 months overdue).
> Before I take it to an A&P, I'd like to go over it myself. I'd
> appreciate it if anybody could send me an example of one so I could
> be a little more intelligent about it.
>
> I went through the archives and wasn't able to find one - but may
> have missed it.
>
> thanks!
>
> Lorin Miller
> lorin.miller@emerson.com
> Colo, Iowa
> GN-1 N30PP
> Waiex N81YX
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Ailerflappers |
Create a Pietenstorch:
Flapperons, and Flaps. Leading edge slats, VGs. What else, Retro rockets and perhaps
the engine rotating a la V22 Osprey ;^'}
Blue Skies
Steve "STOL" D
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers
> RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <
>
> Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an onion.
>
> Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the drag
is exorbitantly high,
> and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to tie
your shoes without
> bending over.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab capstrip question |
You talking about A&P school Mike? I have wondered if current A&P schools
teach anything but riveted/aluminum aircraft structures since most graduates
head for the airlines when they are done.
rick
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:55 PM, GliderMike <glidermikeg@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Wouldn't it be better to go slightly wider than the red square, along the
> line of edge distance with rivets? When I did Airframe stuff in school, my
> class got screwed out of the stick and rag stuff, so I don't know. Our
> instructor had a composites project he thought was more important, so we got
> zip on stick and rag. I think I was the only one in the class that had any
> interest in stick and rag. I'll get plenty building my Piet. I would agree
> Bill added extra weight that doesn't get him anything but a couple of pounds
> of extra weight if he did that on the whole airframe. :D
>
> --------
> Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings,
> GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298403#298403
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
I always heard the quote as:
"Simplificate and add lightness!"
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Yocum <yocum137@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons...
> Flaperons... To bring stall speed from 35 down to 32. And with
> the
> added weight you'll have to increase your approach by 10mph so now
>
> you're landing at 42 mph.
>
> ;-)
>
> I'm sure I'll get quote wrong but here goes: keep it simple and
> build
> in lightness.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> yocum@gmail.com
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Jeff wilson < wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable?
> > Jeff Wilson
> > 'niner whiskey tango'
> > N899WT
> >
> >
> > _
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Subject: | Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist |
Here are the two checklists that Dan sent me:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2314248/Pietenpol_Air_Camper_Annual_Condition_Inspection_Checklist-orig.doc
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2314248/Pietenpol_Air_Camper_anual_inspection-orig.doc
Have a good day!
Ryan
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan Yocum <yocum137@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm on vacation so I don't have access to my laptop, but there are
> *condition inspection* checklists in the archives. Just search for the right
> terms.
>
> Ryan has the checklists I use, if you can't find 'em.
>
> --
> yocum@gmail.com
>
>
> On May 21, 2010, at 1:54 PM, ldmill <lorin.miller@emerson.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> All,
>> I just purchased a nice GN-1 (N30PP) here in Iowa, and have to get the
>> annual condition inspection done on it (7 months overdue). Before I take it
>> to an A&P, I'd like to go over it myself. I'd appreciate it if anybody could
>> send me an example of one so I could be a little more intelligent about it.
>>
>> I went through the archives and wasn't able to find one - but may have
>> missed it.
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> Lorin Miller
>> lorin.miller@emerson.com
>> Colo, Iowa
>> GN-1 N30PP
>> Waiex N81YX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist |
Thanks Ryan! I finally found them in the archive about the same time you posted
this.
Lorin
--------
Lorin Miller
Waiex N81YX
Pietenpol next up
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298459#298459
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Subject: | Re: Flaperons... |
Actually, I believe the original quote was:
"Simplicate, and add more lightness."
And the saying is attributed to William Stout, who, among many other achievements,
designed the Ford Trimotor.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298460#298460
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Add to that the fact that making the ailerons full span (when the flaperons
are operating in aileron mode) would add generously to the already
ridiculously high amount of adverse yaw the ailerons produce, without adding
significantly to the roll rate. I've gt a few hours in a Fairchild 22,
which has both full span ailerons and the slowest roll rate of anything I've
ever flown.
But, go ahead. I mean these are EXPERIMENTAL airplanes. Some people even
put Corvair automobile engines on them, so why not flaperons?
Jim Markle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael
D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers
Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an
onion.
Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the
drag is exorbitantly high,
and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to
tie your shoes without
bending over.
Mike C.
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Subject: | Re: Ailerflappers |
Wow! Tough crowd!
Gary Boothe
Corvair Powered (I hope)
------Original Message------
From: Jack Phillips
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers
Sent: May 21, 2010 1:20 PM
Add to that the fact that making the ailerons full span (when the flaperons
are operating in aileron mode) would add generously to the already
ridiculously high amount of adverse yaw the ailerons produce, without adding
significantly to the roll rate. I've gt a few hours in a Fairchild 22,
which has both full span ailerons and the slowest roll rate of anything I've
ever flown.
But, go ahead. I mean these are EXPERIMENTAL airplanes. Some people even
put Corvair automobile engines on them, so why not flaperons?
Jim Markle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael
D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers
Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an
onion.
Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the
drag is exorbitantly high,
and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to
tie your shoes without
bending over.
Mike C.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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Subject: | overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options |
Glider Mike,
Welcome to the list. There are a great bunch of guys on this list, some of whom
are real aeronautical,
mechanical, and material engineers and those of us with fairly decent experiences
in building and been-there-
done-that help for you.
If you're one who likes to overbuild or redesign for more stoutness, don't build
a Pietenpol. The design as-is
is perfectly stout enough and has been flying as-built by plans for over 80 years
now without any of us making
it much better. Different maybe, better probably not.
If you feel the need to overbuild then you'll want to do several things. Make
the wings a few feet longer say
3 to 4 feet so you have more lifting area comparable to a Cub or Champ. The Piet
wing is about 5 feet shorter
than your typical Cub or Champ.
Use a larger motor say a 100 hp 0-200.
Loose some weight if you're a full-figured girl like me.
If you want a REALLY good flying Pietenpol build it like the plans say to build
it, no lighter, no heavier and you'll
have a good flying airplane.
If you feel like you need to put in full instruments in the front seat, fully reclining
vibra-seats with heat, air
conditioning, carpeting, stereo, full electrics, avionics, vacuum systems, and
autopilots with full night lighting then you're going to
have a single seat airplane that will be too heavy to carry a passenger and share
the joy of open cockpit flying.
As Jack said the Tony Bingelis books from EAA are an outstanding resource and Tony
shows you how to do it right, several
ways to do it right, the pros and cons of each, the cost analysis of various build
options and will save you tons
of time in wondering "is this safe, is this right, is this going to be airworthy
?"
Use decent aircraft grade materials. Just because you could use Home Depot hardware
and cables please don't do it unless
you just want to fly alone all the time. There are some very cool hardware options
people have come up with over the
years and you can search many of these topics on the Matronics web site thru the
archive search option.
Sometimes as builders we can get stuck dancing on the head of a pin worrying about
little things that aren't really worth
worrying about since many aspects of building a plane this simple are just that--
not complicated. Let common sense
prevail. Don't add it if you don't have to or really don't need it. If you
want to make a cosmetic change, go for it.
If you're going to redesign the wing spar or control system you're going not going
to be test flying a proven design unless
another has already tried and flown that exact design for years with good results
or you had some knowledgeable person
analyze it and bless it.
Beware of old wives tales and hearsay. Beware of people who like to repeat information
and listen to themselves talk but have
never had any hands on building experience. Things like "I heard that after more
a more than one-turn spin the airplane will........."
but rather hearken to "my plan stalls at 30 mph indicated, power off" or "all
of my T-88 glue joint test sticks broke in the wood, not in the glue joint."
Best wishes--don't wait, order some wood, start building, spend more time building
than on the computer, and do at least some little project on the plane every
day or at least every other day if you can. Lastly--don't tell anyone you're
building one so you don't get 50 visitors a month.
Mike C.
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Subject: | Re: overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options |
Hi Mike...nice words mate! I like it.
I have emailed you a couple of times to try to buy your DVD's. Are they still available?
Scotty
Australia
www.scottyspietenpol.com
--------
Scotty
Tamworth, Australia
Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper
www.scottyspietenpol.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298467#298467
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Subject: | Mike's Cuy's DVD |
$25 US dollars to PO Box 736, Berea, OH 44017. Includes Priority Mail shipping.
2.5 hours long, plays on DVD players not computers. Not sure Scotty if the NTSC
format
we use here in the US will play in Oz since your players normally need DVD's in
the PAL
format last I knew.
Mike C.
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Subject: | A question about fuselage cross-pieces |
Just recently joined the sides of my fuselage together, and was asked how I decided
which way to orient the 1/2" x 1" cross-pieces and diagonals on the top and
bottom of the fuselage. i.e. when viewed from above, are the cross-pieces 1/2"
wide or 1" wide?
I don't think it really makes any significant difference, and the plans don't really
say which way they go. I went with the 1" dimension when viewed from above.
My decision was based on the highly scientific method wherein one looks at
the plans, and decides that the cross-pieces appear to be drawn about the same
width as the longerons (which we know are 1" x 1").
Anyway, I was just curious as to what the consensus is out there in Piet-builder
land (if there is a consensus). So the question is: Which way did you orient
your top and bottom fuselage cross pieces?
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298469#298469
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tail_end_430.jpg
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Subject: | Flap over Flaperons |
Well, -I'll put this one to rest.
-
When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around during my d
ay at work or at home thinking about it.- Who is it that always closes wi
th "Now lets think about this"
Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud.
-
The thought about Flaperons started because I am a news photographer and a
few weeks ago a solo pilot and CFI made an emergency landing at a Metro tra
in and bus transfer station.- I took the pictures for the morning news an
d was amazed at the skill that it took to stick that landing. It was 11pm,
one person sitting in a shelter waiting for a bus. There is a long straight
piece of road with a lot-of bus stop shelters along one side. It is abou
t 30 feet wide 250 feet long and lined with trees and street lights. It was
night, the pilot reported engine trouble and his intent to make an emergen
cy landing. He made the landing with 70 feet to spare. One 2 inch dent in t
he right leading edge that hit a sapling. His destination was St. Louis dow
ntown CPS. He made it to within about 5 miles. He ran out of gas. Well, at
least he had-skills.-
-
This morning -I was contemplating my own imagined ablilty to land in the
length of a high school football field. I pray I never have to try. I also
thought "Gee I wonder if flaps would make the Piet able to land any shorter
. Well the long and the short of this all is that I know that it is not rea
lly needed on the Piet at all. There are ultralights that don't land any sl
ower.
-
Sometimes we just have to think out loud to verify that our gray matter is
thinking at all.
Thankyou all for your indulgence.
-
Jeff Wilson
"niner whiskey tango"
N899WT
-
Next weeks thought - Adverse yaw and differential airleron bellcranks...
-
Do not archive.
-=0A=0A=0A
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Subject: | Re: Flap over Flaperons-- now off subject |
Jeff,
My wife and I lived in STL, always near Washington U. for 30 years. Where was
the landing-- what street described-- Page, Delmar, Lindell, Forest Park, etc.?
There are lots of BIG trees in many of those areas.
Can you share a pic?
Tim in central TX
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff wilson
Sent: May 21, 2010 6:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons
Well, I'll put this one to rest.
When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around during my day at
work or at home thinking about it. Who is it that always closes with "Now lets
think about this"
Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud.
The thought about Flaperons started because I am a news photographer and a few
weeks ago a solo pilot and CFI made an emergency landing at a Metro train and
bus transfer station. I took the pictures for the morning news and was amazed
at the skill that it took to stick that landing. It was 11pm, one person sitting
in a shelter waiting for a bus. There is a long straight piece of road with
a lot of bus stop shelters along one side. It is about 30 feet wide 250 feet
long and lined with trees and street lights. It was night, the pilot reported
engine trouble and his intent to make an emergency landing. He made the landing
with 70 feet to spare. One 2 inch dent in the right leading edge that hit a
sapling. His destination was St. Louis downtown CPS. He made it to within about
5 miles. He ran out of gas. Well, at least he had skills.
This morning I was contemplating my own imagined ablilty to land in the length
of a high school football field. I pray I never have to try. I also thought "Gee
I wonder if flaps would make the Piet able to land any shorter. Well the long
and the short of this all is that I know that it is not really needed on the
Piet at all. There are ultralights that don't land any slower.
Sometimes we just have to think out loud to verify that our gray matter is thinking
at all.
Thankyou all for your indulgence.
Jeff Wilson
"niner whiskey tango"
N899WT
Next weeks thought - Adverse yaw and differential airleron bellcranks...
Do not archive.
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Subject: | Re: A question about fuselage cross-pieces |
I did all of my fuselage members with the 1" side being vertical, meaning a
ll my spruce cross members and diagonals "stand up tall." I did it this way
so that 1" dimension matches the 1" dimension on the other wood pieces the
y attach to.- FWIW
-
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Subject: | Re: Flap over Flaperons |
Welcome to the club Jeff! (Well, mine anyway.) I do the exact same thing an
d get the same general kind of replies you just did. I am very open to new
thoughts, ideas, methods, techniques... even if to you, they are nothing mo
re then a day dream. Someone else may go from there and run with it..who kn
ows.
-
I look forward to you next out load thought...I'll have more as well.
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Subject: | A question about fuselage cross-pieces |
Mine have the 1" dimension in the vertical direction. Yours will fall out
of the sky if you don't change it.
I can't believe it makes any difference and it was too long ago for me to
even begin to remember my reasoning on doing it the way I did.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 6:18 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A question about fuselage cross-pieces
Just recently joined the sides of my fuselage together, and was asked how I
decided which way to orient the 1/2" x 1" cross-pieces and diagonals on the
top and bottom of the fuselage. i.e. when viewed from above, are the
cross-pieces 1/2" wide or 1" wide?
I don't think it really makes any significant difference, and the plans
don't really say which way they go. I went with the 1" dimension when viewed
from above. My decision was based on the highly scientific method wherein
one looks at the plans, and decides that the cross-pieces appear to be drawn
about the same width as the longerons (which we know are 1" x 1").
Anyway, I was just curious as to what the consensus is out there in
Piet-builder land (if there is a consensus). So the question is: Which way
did you orient your top and bottom fuselage cross pieces?
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298469#298469
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tail_end_430.jpg
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|
Subject: | Re: Flap over Flaperons |
Hey Jeff,
I'm the one who often closes with "Now let's think about this..."
It's a phrase I taught myself to say in my mind when things are
melting down in front of me (sometimes actually melting down in the
lab). Now it comes in useful when students are similarly melting
something down in my lab, usually to the tune of several thousands of
research dollars (!). (I, of course, have graduated from melting
things down to simply blowing them up!)
As to the flaperons, I once had it explained to me that the Pietenpol
airfoil, with its negative reflex, functions something like a Clark Y
(fat cross-section, flat bottom) with about 15 degrees of flaps. It
is high lift but high drag. What do flaps do? Increase lift and drag.
So, we're pretty much covered when it comes to short field
operations. Further, the Piet really likes to slip. I'd like others'
opinions on this, but since I've become comfortable with slips in the
Piet, I've been thinking that if it all went pear-shaped one day, and
I had to get the plane down on a spot with almost no open ground, I
could slip right into it, right to the ground, and walk away, even if
it totalled the plane. There is that much control and the speed can
be that low.
Jeff
>Well, I'll put this one to rest.
>
>When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around
>during my day at work or at home thinking about it. Who is it that
>always closes with "Now lets think about this"
>Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud.
>
...
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
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Subject: | Re: Flap over Flaperons |
Jeff,
I always thought your motto was derived from the Canadian National
Motto i.e. "Now, everybody, let's not get excited.".
Kip Gardner (ducking in advance of replies from our Canadian
bretheren on the list)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On May 21, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote:
> <jboatri@emory.edu>
>
> Hey Jeff,
>
> I'm the one who often closes with "Now let's think about this..."
> It's a phrase I taught myself to say in my mind when things are
> melting down in front of me (sometimes actually melting down in the
> lab). Now it comes in useful when students are similarly melting
> something down in my lab, usually to the tune of several thousands
> of research dollars (!). (I, of course, have graduated from melting
> things down to simply blowing them up!)
>
> As to the flaperons, I once had it explained to me that the
> Pietenpol airfoil, with its negative reflex, functions something
> like a Clark Y (fat cross-section, flat bottom) with about 15
> degrees of flaps. It is high lift but high drag. What do flaps do?
> Increase lift and drag. So, we're pretty much covered when it comes
> to short field operations. Further, the Piet really likes to slip.
> I'd like others' opinions on this, but since I've become
> comfortable with slips in the Piet, I've been thinking that if it
> all went pear-shaped one day, and I had to get the plane down on a
> spot with almost no open ground, I could slip right into it, right
> to the ground, and walk away, even if it totalled the plane. There
> is that much control and the speed can be that low.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>> Well, I'll put this one to rest.
>>
>> When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around
>> during my day at work or at home thinking about it. Who is it
>> that always closes with "Now lets think about this"
>> Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud.
>>
> ...
> --
>
> Jeff Boatright
> "Now let's think about this..."
>
>
Message 39
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Uhhhh, why does this message have my name at the end of it?
Hey, don't drag me into this!!! :-)
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: May 21, 2010 3:20 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers
>
>
>Add to that the fact that making the ailerons full span (when the flaperons
>are operating in aileron mode) would add generously to the already
>ridiculously high amount of adverse yaw the ailerons produce, without adding
>significantly to the roll rate. I've gt a few hours in a Fairchild 22,
>which has both full span ailerons and the slowest roll rate of anything I've
>ever flown.
>
>But, go ahead. I mean these are EXPERIMENTAL airplanes. Some people even
>put Corvair automobile engines on them, so why not flaperons?
>
>Jim Markle
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael
>D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]
>Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:32 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers
>
>Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
>
>Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an
>onion.
>
>Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the
>drag is exorbitantly high,
>and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to
>tie your shoes without
>bending over.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
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