---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/21/10: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: Re: plans (Jack Phillips) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: plans (John Recine) 3. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: plans (Michael Perez) 4. 07:08 AM - Flaperons... (Jeff wilson) 5. 07:35 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Michael Perez) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: Flaperons... (JERRY GROGAN) 7. 07:52 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Wayne Bressler) 8. 08:17 AM - Re: horiz stab capstrip question (Bill Church) 9. 08:42 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Bill Church) 10. 09:09 AM - Re: horiz stab capstrip question (GliderMike) 11. 09:30 AM - Re: horiz stab capstrip question (Bill Church) 12. 09:44 AM - Re: plans (GliderMike) 13. 10:01 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Dan Yocum) 14. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: plans (Ryan Mueller) 15. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Flaperons... (Tim Willis) 16. 10:55 AM - Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (ldmill) 17. 11:33 AM - Ailerflappers (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 18. 11:44 AM - Re: Ailerflappers (Don Emch) 19. 11:44 AM - Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (Dan Yocum) 20. 11:48 AM - Re: Ailerflappers (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 21. 11:48 AM - Re: Re: horiz stab capstrip question (Rick Holland) 22. 11:52 AM - Re: Flaperons... (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 23. 11:59 AM - Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (Ryan Mueller) 24. 12:11 PM - Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist (ldmill) 25. 12:39 PM - Re: Flaperons... (Bill Church) 26. 01:23 PM - Re: Ailerflappers (Jack Phillips) 27. 01:52 PM - Re: Ailerflappers (gboothe5@comcast.net) 28. 01:59 PM - overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 29. 02:12 PM - Re: overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options (bubbleboy) 30. 02:57 PM - Mike's Cuy's DVD (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]) 31. 03:17 PM - A question about fuselage cross-pieces (Bill Church) 32. 03:34 PM - Flap over Flaperons (jeff wilson) 33. 05:01 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons-- now off subject (Tim Willis) 34. 05:09 PM - Re: A question about fuselage cross-pieces (Michael Perez) 35. 05:14 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons (Michael Perez) 36. 05:21 PM - Re: A question about fuselage cross-pieces (Jack Phillips) 37. 05:49 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons (Jeff Boatright) 38. 06:31 PM - Re: Flap over Flaperons (Kip and Beth Gardner) 39. 07:23 PM - Re: Ailerflappers (Jim Markle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:05 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans Mike, I usually wait for Mike Cuy to say this to new Pietenpol builders, but he's fallen down on the job so I'll say it: The best investment you can make when beginning to build a Piet is to buy the Tony Bongelis books, all four of them: The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction Techniques, Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines. Other worthwhile investments are the EAA's book on Aircraft Welding, Chet Peek's book on the Pietenpol, and Mike Cuy's video on building and flying a Pietenpol Air Camper. Chuck Gantzer also has a nice video available. I know Michael Perez is offering DVD's on building hints, but I haven't seen them, nor have I seen his airplane. Most of the questions you will have are covered in one or more of those sources. Anything else you can probably get answered on this forum in the archives. Good luck, and "Go Thou, and make Sawdust" Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chase143(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 12:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans Mike, Welcome aboard, you are in for a great journey building a Piet. Brodhead is a good time and a great first hand education. If you can swing it; one trip there and you will say "I can't afford not to go"! Enjoy the building! Steve -------- Steve www.mypiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298332#298332 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans From: "John Recine" TmljZSBqb2IgSmFjaywgaGUgd291bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHByb3VkDQoNCkRvIG5vdCBhcmNoaXZl DQoNClBNIERhbmdlcg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgQmxhY2tCZXJyeQ0K DQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogIkphY2sgUGhpbGxpcHMiIDxwaWV0 Zmx5ckBiZWxsc291dGgubmV0Pg0KRGF0ZTogRnJpLCAyMSBNYXkgMjAxMCAwNzowNzo0MyANClRv OiA8cGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wt TGlzdDogUmU6IHBsYW5zDQoNCk1pa2UsIEkgdXN1YWxseSB3YWl0IGZvciBNaWtlIEN1eSB0byBz YXkgdGhpcyB0byBuZXcgUGlldGVucG9sIGJ1aWxkZXJzLCBidXQNCmhlJ3MgZmFsbGVuIGRvd24g b24gdGhlIGpvYiBzbyBJJ2xsIHNheSBpdDoNCg0KVGhlIGJlc3QgaW52ZXN0bWVudCB5b3UgY2Fu IG1ha2Ugd2hlbiBiZWdpbm5pbmcgdG8gYnVpbGQgYSBQaWV0IGlzIHRvIGJ1eQ0KdGhlIFRvbnkg Qm9uZ2VsaXMgYm9va3MsIGFsbCBmb3VyIG9mIHRoZW06ICBUaGUgU3BvcnRwbGFuZSBCdWlsZGVy LA0KU3BvcnRwbGFuZSBDb25zdHJ1Y3Rpb24gVGVjaG5pcXVlcywgRmlyZXdhbGwgRm9yd2FyZCwg YW5kIFRvbnkgQmluZ2VsaXMgb24NCkVuZ2luZXMuICBPdGhlciB3b3J0aHdoaWxlIGludmVzdG1l bnRzIGFyZSB0aGUgRUFBJ3MgYm9vayBvbiBBaXJjcmFmdA0KV2VsZGluZywgQ2hldCBQZWVrJ3Mg Ym9vayBvbiB0aGUgUGlldGVucG9sLCBhbmQgTWlrZSBDdXkncyB2aWRlbyBvbiBidWlsZGluZw0K YW5kIGZseWluZyBhIFBpZXRlbnBvbCBBaXIgQ2FtcGVyLiAgQ2h1Y2sgR2FudHplciBhbHNvIGhh cyBhIG5pY2UgdmlkZW8NCmF2YWlsYWJsZS4gIEkga25vdyBNaWNoYWVsIFBlcmV6IGlzIG9mZmVy aW5nIERWRCdzIG9uIGJ1aWxkaW5nIGhpbnRzLCBidXQgSQ0KaGF2ZW4ndCBzZWVuIHRoZW0sIG5v ciBoYXZlIEkgc2VlbiBoaXMgYWlycGxhbmUuICANCg0KTW9zdCBvZiB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb25zIHlv dSB3aWxsIGhhdmUgYXJlIGNvdmVyZWQgaW4gb25lIG9yIG1vcmUgb2YgdGhvc2UNCnNvdXJjZXMu ICBBbnl0aGluZyBlbHNlIHlvdSBjYW4gcHJvYmFibHkgZ2V0IGFuc3dlcmVkIG9uIHRoaXMgZm9y dW0gaW4gdGhlDQphcmNoaXZlcy4NCg0KR29vZCBsdWNrLCBhbmQgIkdvIFRob3UsIGFuZCBtYWtl IFNhd2R1c3QiDQoNCkphY2sgUGhpbGxpcHMNCk5YODk5SlANClJhbGVpZ2gsIE5DDQoNCi0tLS0t T3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBvd25lci1waWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdC1zZXJ2ZXJA bWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KW21haWx0bzpvd25lci1waWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdC1zZXJ2ZXJAbWF0cm9u aWNzLmNvbV0gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mDQpjaGFzZTE0MyhhdClhb2wuY29tDQpTZW50OiBUaHVyc2Rh eSwgTWF5IDIwLCAyMDEwIDEyOjI0IFBNDQpUbzogcGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNv bQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBwbGFucw0KDQotLT4gUGlldGVucG9sLUxp c3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQgYnk6ICJjaGFzZTE0MyhhdClhb2wuY29tIg0KPGNoYXNlMTQzQGFv bC5jb20+DQoNCk1pa2UsDQpXZWxjb21lIGFib2FyZCwgeW91IGFyZSBpbiBmb3IgYSBncmVhdCBq b3VybmV5IGJ1aWxkaW5nIGEgUGlldC4gIEJyb2RoZWFkIGlzDQphIGdvb2QgdGltZSBhbmQgYSBn cmVhdCBmaXJzdCBoYW5kIGVkdWNhdGlvbi4gSWYgeW91IGNhbiBzd2luZyBpdDsgb25lIHRyaXAN CnRoZXJlIGFuZCB5b3Ugd2lsbCBzYXkgIkkgY2FuJ3QgYWZmb3JkIG5vdCB0byBnbyIhDQpFbmpv eSB0aGUgYnVpbGRpbmchDQpTdGV2ZQ0KDQotLS0tLS0tLQ0KU3RldmUNCnd3dy5teXBpZXQuY29t DQoNCg0KDQoNClJlYWQgdGhpcyB0b3BpYyBvbmxpbmUgaGVyZToNCg0KaHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5t YXRyb25pY3MuY29tL3ZpZXd0b3BpYy5waHA/cD0yOTgzMzIjMjk4MzMyDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoN Cg0KDQoNCg= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:39 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans Thank you for the plug on my DVDs Jack.- I own all of the Bingelis books and I concur with most here, they are a must have. I always forget that I h ave them and waste time figuring things out on my own, just to find out the books had the answer all the time. (I STILL need to get them out where I c an see them every day.) - Since Jack mentioned my DVDs, I'll update the list on what is current: - 5 HINT DVDs now available all with newly improved animated menus and Light Scribed discs. Original content on the DVDs has not changed. Shipping is fr ee in contiguous United States. Shipping prices in place for Canada and the United Kingdom. All others need to use the EMAIL ME page for a quote. I am currently working on 2 new pages with pictures.- Visit www.karetakeraero .com to order direct with Pay Pal or credit card. - - ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:23 AM PST US From: Jeff wilson Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable? Jeff Wilson 'niner whiskey tango' N899WT ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:26 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... I personally have not, but I don't know why it would not be a possibility. There would be a weight penalty, I would guess, but I am sure if you wanted to do it, you could. I would be very interested to some of your ideas, if you want to contact me off list with some thoughts and sketches, that would be cool. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:29 AM PST US From: "JERRY GROGAN" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... When I purchased mine it had flaps on it. It had been flying for years like that. I have not flown it that way, but I am going to leave them on. But I am rebuilding the entire airplane. So it will be awhile before we know how it handles with them on. Jerry Grogan Prairie City, IA Pieten 38 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff wilson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 9:08 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable? Jeff Wilson 'niner whiskey tango' N899WT ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:49 AM PST US From: Wayne Bressler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... I'm just curious as to why? For what benefit or change in performance? I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea. I'm sure it could be done. Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com On May 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Jeff wilson wrote: > Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable? > Jeff Wilson > 'niner whiskey tango' > N899WT > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: horiz stab capstrip question From: "Bill Church" Uhhhh, rivets??? line of edge distance??? The gussets are secured to the frame with adhesive. The nails (optional) are simply there to hold the gusset in place while the adhesive cures. If you felt the need for bigger gussets than the plans show, one or two thicknesses won't make any difference, but as far as I know, there have never been any issues with the gussets on the plans being undersized. Actually, the gusset size I drew in red is bigger than the plans show (see attached clip from the plans). It looks like the gusset plate in the photo is at least 20 thicknesses oversized (at each end). By the way, my comments about gusset size aren't specifically in reference to "Airplane stuff", but rather, to gussets in general. My schooling didn't include ANY "airplane stuff". When all else fails, refer to the plans. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298433#298433 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bhp_gusset_131.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flaperons... From: "Bill Church" Lots of people have tried flaperons. Just not on a Pietenpol. :) By that, I don't mean that no-one has tried it on a Pietenpol, just not "lots of people". The better question would be "Why would anyone need flaps on a Pietenpol?". The basic purpose of flaps is to lower the stall speed. Well, the Piet wing already has a very slow stall speed, so why bother adding unnecessary complications and weight, with debatable benefit. Flaperons make sense on some aircraft, but I don't think the Pietenpol is one of them. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298434#298434 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:38 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: horiz stab capstrip question From: "GliderMike" Bill, looking at the photo with the red line, and the plans, I can see the red outlined gusset is larger. Where I went to high school, 45 years ago, we didn't have wood shop, and I've never had the privilege of being around a cabinet maker or furniture maker, so I'm pretty green on wood working stuff. Looking at the plans pic, there is more than enough coverage from the gussets to make the joint strong. If it weren't strong enough, there would be Pietenpols falling out of the sky, and that hasn't been happening. What little bit of welding stuff I have done, I've used smaller gussets for reinforcing a corner than used here, with good success. I tend to overbuild things, because I've had problems with things breaking because they were slightly under built. A major reason I chose the Piet for my first airplane project if because there are a large number of successful builders who are willing to help with advice. I've wanted a stick and rag airplane for thirty years, and felt the least expensive way to get one was to build it. With support from successful builders like you, I will be able to accomplish my goal. I hear "follow the plans," probably more than any other advice on all of the chat groups. I know that is good advice, and should be strongly adhered to, but as one who tends to overbuild, it is sometimes difficult to do. Sort of like the deal, "when you're up to your *#$* in alligators, it is difficult to remember, the initial objective is to drain the swamp." The edge distance deal with rivets, is you don't want the metal ripping out, because the rivet hole was too close to the edge. Same as you don't drive a nail too close to the edge of a piece of wood. Thanks for your patience. -------- Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298437#298437 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: horiz stab capstrip question From: "Bill Church" No problem Mike. I didn't get to take wood shop in high school either. I always thought I got cheated there. I've had no formal training in woodworking either. I learned what little I know about woodworking from watching my Dad (who DID get wood shop in high school - but that's all), and then trying things. If you're building the wood fuselage, just follow the plans. Many say that the Piet is overbuilt already - so resist ANY temptation to beef things up - all it will get you is a heavy plane. If you're building a steel tube fuselage, you'll be more on your own since the plans are "sparse". Lots of details to figure out on your own. Oh, and my point about mentioning "rivets" was that there aren't really any in the Piet. (I know, the plans say to attach the tail cable fittings with rivets, but those don't count) This List is a great place to learn, with a nice bunch of people. Welcome to the group, and have fun building. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298440#298440 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans From: "GliderMike" Videos ordered. Still shopping on books. Need to take more time to get latest edition of each. -------- Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298441#298441 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:13 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... Flaperons... To bring stall speed from 35 down to 32. And with the added weight you'll have to increase your approach by 10mph so now you're landing at 42 mph. ;-) I'm sure I'll get quote wrong but here goes: keep it simple and build in lightness. Dan -- yocum@gmail.com On May 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Jeff wilson wrote: > Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable? > Jeff Wilson > 'niner whiskey tango' > N899WT > > > _ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: plans From: Ryan Mueller Tony passed on almost a decade ago, so I don't think you need to worry about any upcoming updates from him. :P EAA publishes the books, they would have the last editions. http://www.shopeaa.com/bingelissetof4.aspx Same thing with Aircraft Welding....last revised in '99. Stop worrying and start buying! :) Ryan do not archive On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:44 AM, GliderMike wrote: > > Videos ordered. Still shopping on books. Need to take more time to get > latest edition of each. > > -------- > Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, > GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298441#298441 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:45 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flaperons... Bill hit the nail on the head. Why add flaps to a Piet? I have seen some of the earliest work done on flaps by NACA, and they found that having even the most slippery flaps on the plane slowed the plane down at all flying speeds, even when the flaps were not deployed. We are talking slightly more drag having this effect. A Piet is already very draggy and slow, already has a low stalling speed, and can really "plop" down in a flare at a 3-point attitude. And the rollout is minimal. BTW, when I was looking at the NACA flaps info, it was for another airfoil and project altogether. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church >Sent: May 21, 2010 11:42 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flaperons... > > >Lots of people have tried flaperons. Just not on a Pietenpol. :) >By that, I don't mean that no-one has tried it on a Pietenpol, just not "lots of people". > > >The better question would be "Why would anyone need flaps on a Pietenpol?". >The basic purpose of flaps is to lower the stall speed. Well, the Piet wing already has a very slow stall speed, so why bother adding unnecessary complications and weight, with debatable benefit. >Flaperons make sense on some aircraft, but I don't think the Pietenpol is one of them. > >Bill C. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298434#298434 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist From: "ldmill" All, I just purchased a nice GN-1 (N30PP) here in Iowa, and have to get the annual condition inspection done on it (7 months overdue). Before I take it to an A&P, I'd like to go over it myself. I'd appreciate it if anybody could send me an example of one so I could be a little more intelligent about it. I went through the archives and wasn't able to find one - but may have missed it. thanks! Lorin Miller lorin.miller@emerson.com Colo, Iowa GN-1 N30PP Waiex N81YX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298446#298446 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:21 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an onion. Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the drag is exorbitantly high, and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to tie your shoes without bending over. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerflappers From: "Don Emch" At the end of this video there is a good example of why there are no "slow down" devices needed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAw3-4HK_U Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298452#298452 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:43 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist I'm on vacation so I don't have access to my laptop, but there are *condition inspection* checklists in the archives. Just search for the right terms. Ryan has the checklists I use, if you can't find 'em. -- yocum@gmail.com On May 21, 2010, at 1:54 PM, ldmill wrote: > > > > All, > I just purchased a nice GN-1 (N30PP) here in Iowa, and have to get > the annual condition inspection done on it (7 months overdue). > Before I take it to an A&P, I'd like to go over it myself. I'd > appreciate it if anybody could send me an example of one so I could > be a little more intelligent about it. > > I went through the archives and wasn't able to find one - but may > have missed it. > > thanks! > > Lorin Miller > lorin.miller@emerson.com > Colo, Iowa > GN-1 N30PP > Waiex N81YX > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:02 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Create a Pietenstorch: Flapperons, and Flaps. Leading edge slats, VGs. What else, Retro rockets and perhaps the engine rotating a la V22 Osprey ;^'} Blue Skies Steve "STOL" D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers > RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" < > > Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an onion. > > Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the drag is exorbitantly high, > and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to tie your shoes without > bending over. > > Mike C. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: horiz stab capstrip question From: Rick Holland You talking about A&P school Mike? I have wondered if current A&P schools teach anything but riveted/aluminum aircraft structures since most graduates head for the airlines when they are done. rick On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:55 PM, GliderMike wrote: > > Wouldn't it be better to go slightly wider than the red square, along the > line of edge distance with rivets? When I did Airframe stuff in school, my > class got screwed out of the stick and rag stuff, so I don't know. Our > instructor had a composites project he thought was more important, so we got > zip on stick and rag. I think I was the only one in the class that had any > interest in stick and rag. I'll get plenty building my Piet. I would agree > Bill added extra weight that doesn't get him anything but a couple of pounds > of extra weight if he did that on the whole airframe. :D > > -------- > Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, > GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298403#298403 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:16 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... I always heard the quote as: "Simplificate and add lightness!" Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flaperons... > Flaperons... To bring stall speed from 35 down to 32. And with > the > added weight you'll have to increase your approach by 10mph so now > > you're landing at 42 mph. > > ;-) > > I'm sure I'll get quote wrong but here goes: keep it simple and > build > in lightness. > > Dan > > -- > yocum@gmail.com > > On May 21, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Jeff wilson < wrote: > > > Has anyone tried flaperons? Is it feasable? > > Jeff Wilson > > 'niner whiskey tango' > > N899WT > > > > > > _ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist From: Ryan Mueller Here are the two checklists that Dan sent me: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2314248/Pietenpol_Air_Camper_Annual_Condition_Inspection_Checklist-orig.doc http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2314248/Pietenpol_Air_Camper_anual_inspection-orig.doc Have a good day! Ryan On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Dan Yocum wrote: > > I'm on vacation so I don't have access to my laptop, but there are > *condition inspection* checklists in the archives. Just search for the right > terms. > > Ryan has the checklists I use, if you can't find 'em. > > -- > yocum@gmail.com > > > On May 21, 2010, at 1:54 PM, ldmill wrote: > >> >> All, >> I just purchased a nice GN-1 (N30PP) here in Iowa, and have to get the >> annual condition inspection done on it (7 months overdue). Before I take it >> to an A&P, I'd like to go over it myself. I'd appreciate it if anybody could >> send me an example of one so I could be a little more intelligent about it. >> >> I went through the archives and wasn't able to find one - but may have >> missed it. >> >> thanks! >> >> Lorin Miller >> lorin.miller@emerson.com >> Colo, Iowa >> GN-1 N30PP >> Waiex N81YX >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:19 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Example Annual Condition Inspection checklist From: "ldmill" Thanks Ryan! I finally found them in the archive about the same time you posted this. Lorin -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX Pietenpol next up Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298459#298459 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flaperons... From: "Bill Church" Actually, I believe the original quote was: "Simplicate, and add more lightness." And the saying is attributed to William Stout, who, among many other achievements, designed the Ford Trimotor. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298460#298460 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:20 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Add to that the fact that making the ailerons full span (when the flaperons are operating in aileron mode) would add generously to the already ridiculously high amount of adverse yaw the ailerons produce, without adding significantly to the roll rate. I've gt a few hours in a Fairchild 22, which has both full span ailerons and the slowest roll rate of anything I've ever flown. But, go ahead. I mean these are EXPERIMENTAL airplanes. Some people even put Corvair automobile engines on them, so why not flaperons? Jim Markle -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Aerospace Corporation]" Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an onion. Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the drag is exorbitantly high, and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to tie your shoes without bending over. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers From: gboothe5@comcast.net Wow! Tough crowd! Gary Boothe Corvair Powered (I hope) ------Original Message------ From: Jack Phillips Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Sent: May 21, 2010 1:20 PM Add to that the fact that making the ailerons full span (when the flaperons are operating in aileron mode) would add generously to the already ridiculously high amount of adverse yaw the ailerons produce, without adding significantly to the roll rate. I've gt a few hours in a Fairchild 22, which has both full span ailerons and the slowest roll rate of anything I've ever flown. But, go ahead. I mean these are EXPERIMENTAL airplanes. Some people even put Corvair automobile engines on them, so why not flaperons? Jim Markle -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Aerospace Corporation]" Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an onion. Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the drag is exorbitantly high, and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to tie your shoes without bending over. Mike C. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:33 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options Glider Mike, Welcome to the list. There are a great bunch of guys on this list, some of whom are real aeronautical, mechanical, and material engineers and those of us with fairly decent experiences in building and been-there- done-that help for you. If you're one who likes to overbuild or redesign for more stoutness, don't build a Pietenpol. The design as-is is perfectly stout enough and has been flying as-built by plans for over 80 years now without any of us making it much better. Different maybe, better probably not. If you feel the need to overbuild then you'll want to do several things. Make the wings a few feet longer say 3 to 4 feet so you have more lifting area comparable to a Cub or Champ. The Piet wing is about 5 feet shorter than your typical Cub or Champ. Use a larger motor say a 100 hp 0-200. Loose some weight if you're a full-figured girl like me. If you want a REALLY good flying Pietenpol build it like the plans say to build it, no lighter, no heavier and you'll have a good flying airplane. If you feel like you need to put in full instruments in the front seat, fully reclining vibra-seats with heat, air conditioning, carpeting, stereo, full electrics, avionics, vacuum systems, and autopilots with full night lighting then you're going to have a single seat airplane that will be too heavy to carry a passenger and share the joy of open cockpit flying. As Jack said the Tony Bingelis books from EAA are an outstanding resource and Tony shows you how to do it right, several ways to do it right, the pros and cons of each, the cost analysis of various build options and will save you tons of time in wondering "is this safe, is this right, is this going to be airworthy ?" Use decent aircraft grade materials. Just because you could use Home Depot hardware and cables please don't do it unless you just want to fly alone all the time. There are some very cool hardware options people have come up with over the years and you can search many of these topics on the Matronics web site thru the archive search option. Sometimes as builders we can get stuck dancing on the head of a pin worrying about little things that aren't really worth worrying about since many aspects of building a plane this simple are just that-- not complicated. Let common sense prevail. Don't add it if you don't have to or really don't need it. If you want to make a cosmetic change, go for it. If you're going to redesign the wing spar or control system you're going not going to be test flying a proven design unless another has already tried and flown that exact design for years with good results or you had some knowledgeable person analyze it and bless it. Beware of old wives tales and hearsay. Beware of people who like to repeat information and listen to themselves talk but have never had any hands on building experience. Things like "I heard that after more a more than one-turn spin the airplane will........." but rather hearken to "my plan stalls at 30 mph indicated, power off" or "all of my T-88 glue joint test sticks broke in the wood, not in the glue joint." Best wishes--don't wait, order some wood, start building, spend more time building than on the computer, and do at least some little project on the plane every day or at least every other day if you can. Lastly--don't tell anyone you're building one so you don't get 50 visitors a month. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: overbuilding a Pietenpol--some options From: "bubbleboy" Hi Mike...nice words mate! I like it. I have emailed you a couple of times to try to buy your DVD's. Are they still available? Scotty Australia www.scottyspietenpol.com -------- Scotty Tamworth, Australia Building a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298467#298467 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:44 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mike's Cuy's DVD $25 US dollars to PO Box 736, Berea, OH 44017. Includes Priority Mail shipping. 2.5 hours long, plays on DVD players not computers. Not sure Scotty if the NTSC format we use here in the US will play in Oz since your players normally need DVD's in the PAL format last I knew. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: A question about fuselage cross-pieces From: "Bill Church" Just recently joined the sides of my fuselage together, and was asked how I decided which way to orient the 1/2" x 1" cross-pieces and diagonals on the top and bottom of the fuselage. i.e. when viewed from above, are the cross-pieces 1/2" wide or 1" wide? I don't think it really makes any significant difference, and the plans don't really say which way they go. I went with the 1" dimension when viewed from above. My decision was based on the highly scientific method wherein one looks at the plans, and decides that the cross-pieces appear to be drawn about the same width as the longerons (which we know are 1" x 1"). Anyway, I was just curious as to what the consensus is out there in Piet-builder land (if there is a consensus). So the question is: Which way did you orient your top and bottom fuselage cross pieces? Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298469#298469 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tail_end_430.jpg ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:49 PM PST US From: jeff wilson Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons Well, -I'll put this one to rest. - When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around during my d ay at work or at home thinking about it.- Who is it that always closes wi th "Now lets think about this" Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud. - The thought about Flaperons started because I am a news photographer and a few weeks ago a solo pilot and CFI made an emergency landing at a Metro tra in and bus transfer station.- I took the pictures for the morning news an d was amazed at the skill that it took to stick that landing. It was 11pm, one person sitting in a shelter waiting for a bus. There is a long straight piece of road with a lot-of bus stop shelters along one side. It is abou t 30 feet wide 250 feet long and lined with trees and street lights. It was night, the pilot reported engine trouble and his intent to make an emergen cy landing. He made the landing with 70 feet to spare. One 2 inch dent in t he right leading edge that hit a sapling. His destination was St. Louis dow ntown CPS. He made it to within about 5 miles. He ran out of gas. Well, at least he had-skills.- - This morning -I was contemplating my own imagined ablilty to land in the length of a high school football field. I pray I never have to try. I also thought "Gee I wonder if flaps would make the Piet able to land any shorter . Well the long and the short of this all is that I know that it is not rea lly needed on the Piet at all. There are ultralights that don't land any sl ower. - Sometimes we just have to think out loud to verify that our gray matter is thinking at all. Thankyou all for your indulgence. - Jeff Wilson "niner whiskey tango" N899WT - Next weeks thought - Adverse yaw and differential airleron bellcranks... - Do not archive. -=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:52 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons-- now off subject Jeff, My wife and I lived in STL, always near Washington U. for 30 years. Where was the landing-- what street described-- Page, Delmar, Lindell, Forest Park, etc.? There are lots of BIG trees in many of those areas. Can you share a pic? Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- From: jeff wilson Sent: May 21, 2010 6:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons Well, I'll put this one to rest. When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around during my day at work or at home thinking about it. Who is it that always closes with "Now lets think about this" Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud. The thought about Flaperons started because I am a news photographer and a few weeks ago a solo pilot and CFI made an emergency landing at a Metro train and bus transfer station. I took the pictures for the morning news and was amazed at the skill that it took to stick that landing. It was 11pm, one person sitting in a shelter waiting for a bus. There is a long straight piece of road with a lot of bus stop shelters along one side. It is about 30 feet wide 250 feet long and lined with trees and street lights. It was night, the pilot reported engine trouble and his intent to make an emergency landing. He made the landing with 70 feet to spare. One 2 inch dent in the right leading edge that hit a sapling. His destination was St. Louis downtown CPS. He made it to within about 5 miles. He ran out of gas. Well, at least he had skills. This morning I was contemplating my own imagined ablilty to land in the length of a high school football field. I pray I never have to try. I also thought "Gee I wonder if flaps would make the Piet able to land any shorter. Well the long and the short of this all is that I know that it is not really needed on the Piet at all. There are ultralights that don't land any slower. Sometimes we just have to think out loud to verify that our gray matter is thinking at all. Thankyou all for your indulgence. Jeff Wilson "niner whiskey tango" N899WT Next weeks thought - Adverse yaw and differential airleron bellcranks... Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:08 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A question about fuselage cross-pieces I did all of my fuselage members with the 1" side being vertical, meaning a ll my spruce cross members and diagonals "stand up tall." I did it this way so that 1" dimension matches the 1" dimension on the other wood pieces the y attach to.- FWIW - ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:51 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons Welcome to the club Jeff! (Well, mine anyway.) I do the exact same thing an d get the same general kind of replies you just did. I am very open to new thoughts, ideas, methods, techniques... even if to you, they are nothing mo re then a day dream. Someone else may go from there and run with it..who kn ows. - I look forward to you next out load thought...I'll have more as well. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:59 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A question about fuselage cross-pieces Mine have the 1" dimension in the vertical direction. Yours will fall out of the sky if you don't change it. I can't believe it makes any difference and it was too long ago for me to even begin to remember my reasoning on doing it the way I did. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 6:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A question about fuselage cross-pieces Just recently joined the sides of my fuselage together, and was asked how I decided which way to orient the 1/2" x 1" cross-pieces and diagonals on the top and bottom of the fuselage. i.e. when viewed from above, are the cross-pieces 1/2" wide or 1" wide? I don't think it really makes any significant difference, and the plans don't really say which way they go. I went with the 1" dimension when viewed from above. My decision was based on the highly scientific method wherein one looks at the plans, and decides that the cross-pieces appear to be drawn about the same width as the longerons (which we know are 1" x 1"). Anyway, I was just curious as to what the consensus is out there in Piet-builder land (if there is a consensus). So the question is: Which way did you orient your top and bottom fuselage cross pieces? Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298469#298469 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tail_end_430.jpg ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:31 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons Hey Jeff, I'm the one who often closes with "Now let's think about this..." It's a phrase I taught myself to say in my mind when things are melting down in front of me (sometimes actually melting down in the lab). Now it comes in useful when students are similarly melting something down in my lab, usually to the tune of several thousands of research dollars (!). (I, of course, have graduated from melting things down to simply blowing them up!) As to the flaperons, I once had it explained to me that the Pietenpol airfoil, with its negative reflex, functions something like a Clark Y (fat cross-section, flat bottom) with about 15 degrees of flaps. It is high lift but high drag. What do flaps do? Increase lift and drag. So, we're pretty much covered when it comes to short field operations. Further, the Piet really likes to slip. I'd like others' opinions on this, but since I've become comfortable with slips in the Piet, I've been thinking that if it all went pear-shaped one day, and I had to get the plane down on a spot with almost no open ground, I could slip right into it, right to the ground, and walk away, even if it totalled the plane. There is that much control and the speed can be that low. Jeff >Well, I'll put this one to rest. > >When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around >during my day at work or at home thinking about it. Who is it that >always closes with "Now lets think about this" >Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud. > ... -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:01 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flap over Flaperons Jeff, I always thought your motto was derived from the Canadian National Motto i.e. "Now, everybody, let's not get excited.". Kip Gardner (ducking in advance of replies from our Canadian bretheren on the list) DO NOT ARCHIVE On May 21, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > > > Hey Jeff, > > I'm the one who often closes with "Now let's think about this..." > It's a phrase I taught myself to say in my mind when things are > melting down in front of me (sometimes actually melting down in the > lab). Now it comes in useful when students are similarly melting > something down in my lab, usually to the tune of several thousands > of research dollars (!). (I, of course, have graduated from melting > things down to simply blowing them up!) > > As to the flaperons, I once had it explained to me that the > Pietenpol airfoil, with its negative reflex, functions something > like a Clark Y (fat cross-section, flat bottom) with about 15 > degrees of flaps. It is high lift but high drag. What do flaps do? > Increase lift and drag. So, we're pretty much covered when it comes > to short field operations. Further, the Piet really likes to slip. > I'd like others' opinions on this, but since I've become > comfortable with slips in the Piet, I've been thinking that if it > all went pear-shaped one day, and I had to get the plane down on a > spot with almost no open ground, I could slip right into it, right > to the ground, and walk away, even if it totalled the plane. There > is that much control and the speed can be that low. > > Jeff > > >> Well, I'll put this one to rest. >> >> When I have a project of any sort under way I often walk around >> during my day at work or at home thinking about it. Who is it >> that always closes with "Now lets think about this" >> Well I often do just that and sometimes I think out loud. >> > ... > -- > > Jeff Boatright > "Now let's think about this..." > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:40 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers Uhhhh, why does this message have my name at the end of it? Hey, don't drag me into this!!! :-) -----Original Message----- >From: Jack Phillips >Sent: May 21, 2010 3:20 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers > > >Add to that the fact that making the ailerons full span (when the flaperons >are operating in aileron mode) would add generously to the already >ridiculously high amount of adverse yaw the ailerons produce, without adding >significantly to the roll rate. I've gt a few hours in a Fairchild 22, >which has both full span ailerons and the slowest roll rate of anything I've >ever flown. > >But, go ahead. I mean these are EXPERIMENTAL airplanes. Some people even >put Corvair automobile engines on them, so why not flaperons? > >Jim Markle > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael >D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] >Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:32 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ailerflappers > >Aerospace Corporation]" > >Putting flapperons on a Pietenpol would be like putting whipped cream on an >onion. > >Dan Y. is right, the stall speed of a Piet is already ridiculously low, the >drag is exorbitantly high, >and the approach angle power-off without flaps is steep enough for you to >tie your shoes without >bending over. > >Mike C. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.