---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/23/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:12 AM - slips (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: American Airways ad, from 1938 (video) (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 3. 11:18 AM - Re: California Pietenpol Gathering (Ray Krause) 4. 11:38 AM - help out the newsletter by writing (Douwe Blumberg) 5. 11:43 AM - Re: slips (Dan Yocum) 6. 12:27 PM - fuel tank (skellytown flyer) 7. 12:52 PM - Re: California Pietenpol Gathering (Gary Boothe) 8. 12:58 PM - Re: fuel tank (Dan Yocum) 9. 02:16 PM - Re: slips (Jerry Dotson) 10. 03:17 PM - Re: fuel tank (skellytown flyer) 11. 04:48 PM - Re: fuel tank (Dale Johnson) 12. 05:58 PM - Re: slips (Jeff Boatright) 13. 06:20 PM - Re: slips (Don Emch) 14. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: fuel tank (Dan Yocum) 15. 06:43 PM - Re: fuel tank (skellytown flyer) 16. 07:07 PM - Re: California Pietenpol Gathering (Ray Krause) 17. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: fuel tank (Kip and Beth Gardner) 18. 08:03 PM - Re: Re: slips (Dan Yocum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:03 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: slips Jeff wrote: >Further, the Piet really likes to slip. I'd like others' >opinions on this, but since I've become comfortable with >slips in the Piet, I've been thinking that if it all went >pear-shaped one day, and I had to get the plane down on a >spot with almost no open ground, I could slip right into it, >right to the ground, and walk away, even if it totalled the >plane. There is that much control and the speed can be that >low. I would have to agree. I learned to fly in a 40HP J-3 Cub and practically every landing was made with a slip on final to adjust the approach. I was taught not to make long, flat draggy approaches and to always make my approaches with power off, so you always carried a little extra altitude that you trimmed off by slipping on final. The use of power to adjust the approach was usually met with the feel of the instructor's unseen hand pulling the throttle back to the stop. It's all about energy management. I like to operate off of the grassy part of the field at my home base at San Geronimo, where the final approach involves dropping the airplane in over some trees that are maybe 20-25 feet tall. If I slip it in pretty steep to drop in over the trees, I can do my landing and rollout on grass and never even get to the paved hard-surface runway. I have come in ridiculously high on final, thrown the airplane into a hard slip, and still made the grass. It's great fun and, like Jeff says, you can put the airplane into very small spots... especially in a pinch, where an intentional groundloop would be an acceptable alternative to something worse. A standard sized football field would be an incredible extravagance of space to land in, and no sweat at all in a Piet. PS, I think the national motto here in South Texas is, "never put off tomorrow what you can put off today". I think I'll go take a siesta... Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:00 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: American Airways ad, from 1938 (video) WOW that really looks like a Biplane concept for the DC3. Knock the top wing off, round the fuselage some and viola. Cool Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Dotson Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: American Airways ad, from 1938 (video) > > My treasure trove of little know aeroplanes turned up this picture and a web site that enlightened me. It is worth a look. > > http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/curtiss-t32-condor-ii > > Good video Gary. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298538#298538 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/curtiss_t_32_condor_ii_118.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:44 AM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Mike, Unfortunately I will not be attending the flyin this Saturday, June 5. Too many commitments. Maybe next time. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Groah To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Hello everyone, It's now just two and a half weeks away from the Pietenpol gathering at Frazier Lake California (a nice grass strip). I just thought I'd send out a reminder and get people thinking about it again. If you've said you're coming then I already have that in my notes. If you're coming and you haven't let Charlie or myself know, then please do. It's not mandatory that you let us know you're coming, but it would be nice for planning purposes. Charlie Miller (our host) and my phone numbers are also on the info sheet; see attached pdf file. I'm looking forward to seeing others who are crazy about Pietenpols. Bring your Pietenpol, or construction photo album to share with everyone! Mike Groah Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:06 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: help out the newsletter by writing Hey everybody, If you can even partially write a decent sentence, please consider contributing something to the newsletter. Anything from building tips, to flight reports to fun stories and musings about aircamping is needed. Ive ready wonderful things on this list over the years, some highly motivational to a builder in the process yet never see them in the newsletter, where they could go on an encourage and motivate others. Contact Doc Mosher and send them in (and photos too) Douwe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:48 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: slips Oscar, N8031 slips very well but I have noticed that the rudder, when fully deflected, will stay in that position if I do not apply opposite pedal. Does yours do the same? How about other people's Piets? I think this is due to the lack of a gap seal on the vertical stabilzer. Thanks, Dan -- yocum@gmail.com On May 23, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > > > Jeff wrote: > >> Further, the Piet really likes to slip. I'd like others' >> opinions on this, but since I've become comfortable with >> slips in the Piet, I've been thinking that if it all went >> pear-shaped one day, and I had to get the plane down on a >> spot with almost no open ground, I could slip right into it, >> right to the ground, and walk away, even if it totalled the >> plane. There is that much control and the speed can be that >> low. > > I would have to agree. I learned to fly in a 40HP J-3 Cub > and practically every landing was made with a slip on final > to adjust the approach. I was taught not to make long, flat > draggy approaches and to always make my approaches with > power off, so you always carried a little extra altitude that > you trimmed off by slipping on final. The use of power to > adjust the approach was usually met with the feel of the > instructor's unseen hand pulling the throttle back to the stop. > It's all about energy management. > > I like to operate off of the grassy part of the field at my > home base at San Geronimo, where the final approach involves > dropping the airplane in over some trees that are maybe 20-25 > feet tall. If I slip it in pretty steep to drop in over the > trees, I can do my landing and rollout on grass and never > even get to the paved hard-surface runway. I have come in > ridiculously high on final, thrown the airplane into a hard > slip, and still made the grass. It's great fun and, like Jeff > says, you can put the airplane into very small spots... > especially in a pinch, where an intentional groundloop would > be an acceptable alternative to something worse. A standard > sized football field would be an incredible extravagance of > space to land in, and no sweat at all in a Piet. > > PS, I think the national motto here in South Texas is, "never > put off tomorrow what you can put off today". I think I'll > go take a siesta... > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:57 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank From: "skellytown flyer" Have any of you made your own tank from galvanized metal ? and if so how successful were you in soldering up the joints? I am getting mine together right now for my center section and hope to be able to start soldering in a week or two if work and life doesn't slow me down too much.anyway just wanted to pick the brain of experienced solder hands either on or off-list.I have some acid core solder and access to 3 fairly heavy soldering irons I can borrow if I decide to try it myself. been a lot of years since high school and my only time to do it with heated irons in a furnace.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298616#298616 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:24 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Ray, Sorry to miss you and your beautiful, shiny Waiex! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Mike, Unfortunately I will not be attending the flyin this Saturday, June 5. Too many commitments. Maybe next time. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Groah Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Hello everyone, It's now just two and a half weeks away from the Pietenpol gathering at Frazier Lake California (a nice grass strip). I just thought I'd send out a reminder and get people thinking about it again. If you've said you're coming then I already have that in my notes. If you're coming and you haven't let Charlie or myself know, then please do. It's not mandatory that you let us know you're coming, but it would be nice for planning purposes. Charlie Miller (our host) and my phone numbers are also on the info sheet; see attached pdf file. I'm looking forward to seeing others who are crazy about Pietenpols. Bring your Pietenpol, or construction photo album to share with everyone! Mike Groah Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:26 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank Raymond, Having only sweated copper fittings, why not use a propane torch, instead? I don't think you're going to get enough heat out of an iron. Dan -- yocum@gmail.com On May 23, 2010, at 3:27 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > > > > Have any of you made your own tank from galvanized metal ? and if so > how successful were you in soldering up the joints? I am getting > mine together right now for my center section and hope to be able to > start soldering in a week or two if work and life doesn't slow me > down too much.anyway just wanted to pick the brain of experienced > solder hands either on or off-list.I have some acid core solder and > access to 3 fairly heavy soldering irons I can borrow if I decide to > try it myself. been a lot of years since high school and my only > time to do it with heated irons in a furnace.Raymond > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: slips From: "Jerry Dotson" Dan I think that I would look for a cable binding or hinge bind. I have not gotten my rudder cables installed yet but have stretched building strings and I can see that routing will be a challenge to get good geometry and no rubbing the framework. Why not sit the fuselage on blocks so the tailwheel hangs free and see what it does. If the hinges are not pretty close to where a single straight rod could pass through they will bind some where along the arc (personal experience on a stereo cabinet from years ago.....I said aw thats close enuff. NOT). -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 Ribs and tailfeathers done using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298627#298627 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank From: "skellytown flyer" Well that may be true but I am worried about getting the thin metal hot and burning the galvanize away. 'm afraid if that happened I'd never get a good joint seal.I suppose Proseal is always an option but I'd rather not use it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298631#298631 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:06 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank I tryed to build a tank from galvanized metal. Used copper pop rivits with rosen core solder. It started to leak afer about 40 hrs.I don't know how you plan to get the acid from the inside. In time the acid will eat through. Dale > [Original Message] > From: skellytown flyer > To: > Date: 5/23/2010 2:29:41 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank > > > Have any of you made your own tank from galvanized metal ? and if so how successful were you in soldering up the joints? I am getting mine together right now for my center section and hope to be able to start soldering in a week or two if work and life doesn't slow me down too much.anyway just wanted to pick the brain of experienced solder hands either on or off-list.I have some acid core solder and access to 3 fairly heavy soldering irons I can borrow if I decide to try it myself. been a lot of years since high school and my only time to do it with heated irons in a furnace.Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298616#298616 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:59 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: slips Dan, My rudder does not stay in any position without positive input from my feet. Hence the lousy landings... Jeff > >Oscar, > >N8031 slips very well but I have noticed that the rudder, when fully >deflected, will stay in that position if I do not apply opposite >pedal. Does yours do the same? How about other people's Piets? I >think this is due to the lack of a gap seal on the vertical >stabilzer. > >Thanks, >Dan > -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: slips From: "Don Emch" Dan, I've noticed something very similar with mine. It seems that once in a hard slip I need to apply almost the same amount of pressure in opposite rudder to straighten out. Other old taildraggers I've flown seem to want to get out of the slip more on their own, the Piet just takes a little effort. No big deal. I also seem to get a little stick shake. It's nowhere near a stall though. I think its just a little turbulence coming off of the big covered wire wheels that are now going sideways through the air. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298652#298652 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:58 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank I don't *think* it will burn off the zinc - it's only propane, after all. The melting point of zinc is 400C, the boiling point is 900C. The maximum temp of a propane flame is 1995C. You might get that at the tip of the blue cone (Mike C. probably can corfurm or deny that) but the temp of the tip of the yellow probably wouldn't melt the zinc and would melt the solder which melts at 180-190C. You might as well build up a small box and solder and see if it holds fuel. Dan -- yocum@gmail.com On May 23, 2010, at 6:16 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > > > > Well that may be true but I am worried about getting the thin metal > hot and burning the galvanize away. 'm afraid if that happened I'd > never get a good joint seal.I suppose Proseal is always an option > but I'd rather not use it. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank From: "skellytown flyer" I was thinking about a good sloshing with a water and baking soda solution and then a lot of hot water at the car wash. what do you think? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298657#298657 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:20 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Thanks, Gary, for the complement! I will get to one of the meetings sometime....after I re-polish the Waiex! I sure enjoy all your posts; your workmanship really puts me to shame! But it also makes me try harder! Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Ray, Sorry to miss you and your beautiful, shiny Waiex! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done Do not archive From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:18 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Mike, Unfortunately I will not be attending the flyin this Saturday, June 5. Too many commitments. Maybe next time. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Groah To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Hello everyone, It's now just two and a half weeks away from the Pietenpol gathering at Frazier Lake California (a nice grass strip). I just thought I'd send out a reminder and get people thinking about it again. If you've said you're coming then I already have that in my notes. If you're coming and you haven't let Charlie or myself know, then please do. It's not mandatory that you let us know you're coming, but it would be nice for planning purposes. Charlie Miller (our host) and my phone numbers are also on the info sheet; see attached pdf file. I'm looking forward to seeing others who are crazy about Pietenpols. Bring your Pietenpol, or construction photo album to share with everyone! Mike Groah Do Not Archive http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:54 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the zinc WERE burned off, I'd think solder would flow to those areas and you'd be OK. If the galvanizing merely melted, it would mix with the solder - still shouldn't be a problem. Most of my soldering experience is on copper & brass pipe, but from what I've observed, with adequate flux, solder will flow to anyplace there's a properly cleaned surface, but no further. I'd avoid acid core, rosin core or any kind of core & go strictly with brushed on flux. Kip Gardner On May 23, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Dan Yocum wrote: > > I don't *think* it will burn off the zinc - it's only propane, > after all. > > The melting point of zinc is 400C, the boiling point is 900C. The > maximum temp of a propane flame is 1995C. You might get that at > the tip of the blue cone (Mike C. probably can corfurm or deny > that) but the temp of the tip of the yellow probably wouldn't melt > the zinc and would melt the solder which melts at 180-190C. > > You might as well build up a small box and solder and see if it > holds fuel. > > Dan > > -- > yocum@gmail.com > > On May 23, 2010, at 6:16 PM, skellytown flyer > wrote: > >> >> >> Well that may be true but I am worried about getting the thin >> metal hot and burning the galvanize away. 'm afraid if that >> happened I'd never get a good joint seal.I suppose Proseal is >> always an option but I'd rather not use it. >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:39 PM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: slips Yep. No big deal. Glad to hear mine's not the only one. The previous owner, a young aerospace engineer, put little yarn pieces all over the tail and videoed it during a full slip. The rudder actually "stalls" and needs that extra foot pressure to get out of the "stall." There was some disagreement between his other aeropsace engineer friends as to what caused it to behave that way, but my gut feeling is that there's so much air getting forced through the gap that it can't return to the normal position without some foot pressure. I just chalk it up to being one of those quirks of an airplane designed in 1929 by a man who just wanted to fly. Dan -- yocum@gmail.com On May 23, 2010, at 9:18 PM, Don Emch wrote: > > Dan, > > I've noticed something very similar with mine. It seems that once > in a hard slip I need to apply almost the same amount of pressure in > opposite rudder to straighten out. Other old taildraggers I've > flown seem to want to get out of the slip more on their own, the > Piet just takes a little effort. No big deal. I also seem to get a > little stick shake. It's nowhere near a stall though. I think its > just a little turbulence coming off of the big covered wire wheels > that are now going sideways through the air. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298652#298652 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.