---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/24/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:38 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank (Clif Dawson) 2. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank (Dan Yocum) 3. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: California Pietenpol Gathering (Jim) 4. 10:27 AM - tail wheel backing (schuerrman) 5. 11:11 AM - Re: tail wheel backing (Ryan Mueller) 6. 01:16 PM - Re: tail wheel backing (schuerrman) 7. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: tail wheel backing (Ryan Mueller) 8. 02:48 PM - Re: tail wheel backing (Catdesigns) 9. 04:09 PM - Real Progress! (echobravo4) 10. 04:42 PM - fuel tank (Lawrence Williams) 11. 04:58 PM - Re: Real Progress! (Gary Boothe) 12. 07:52 PM - Re: fuel tank (Billy McCaskill) 13. 09:34 PM - Re: Re: California Pietenpol Gathering (Ray Krause) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:52 AM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank Soft solder is NOT a structuraly sound material. It's one thing to solder a copper water pipe. It's completely another to soft solder the joints in a fuel tank. Also you have to remove the zinc from the steel to expect any kind of safe joint. So tell me, Are you prepared to varnish all the wood and gussets in your plane and THEN glue them together? No? Why would you do the same with sheets of steel? Varnish is a coating and so is zinc. Nothing more. The minimum you might get away with is silver solder. Brazing is a significant step up from that. Then welding is the strongest but somewhat difficult on such thin material. It's a long way down from up there. Especially if you're covered in gasoline. Clif "Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty." - Mark Twain, writer and humorist > I don't *think* it will burn off the zinc - it's only propane, after > all. > The melting point of zinc is 400C, the boiling point is 900C. The > maximum temp of a propane flame is 1995C. You might get that at the > tip of the blue cone (Mike C. probably can corfurm or deny that) but > the temp of the tip of the yellow probably wouldn't melt the zinc and > would melt the solder which melts at 180-190C. > You might as well build up a small box and solder and see if it holds > fuel. > > Dan >> > Well that may be true but I am worried about getting the thin metal >> hot and burning the galvanize away. 'm afraid if that happened I'd >> never get a good joint seal.I suppose Proseal is always an option >> but I'd rather not use it. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:08 AM PST US From: Dan Yocum Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank I don't think Raymond is proposing to use just solder - the tank should be riveted together and the solder only used as the sealant. Dan -- yocum@gmail.com On May 24, 2010, at 3:39 AM, Clif Dawson wrote: > > > > Soft solder is NOT a structuraly sound material. > It's one thing to solder a copper water pipe. It's > completely another to soft solder the joints in a fuel > tank. > > Also you have to remove the zinc from the steel > to expect any kind of safe joint. So tell me, Are > you prepared to varnish all the wood and gussets > in your plane and THEN glue them together? No? > Why would you do the same with sheets of steel? > Varnish is a coating and so is zinc. Nothing more. > > The minimum you might get away with is silver > solder. Brazing is a significant step up from that. > Then welding is the strongest but somewhat > difficult on such thin material. > > It's a long way down from up there. Especially if you're > covered in gasoline. > > Clif > > "Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty." > - Mark Twain, writer and humorist > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:22 AM PST US From: Jim Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Hi Ray, We will miss you at the Piet gathering. Was close to your area this weekend; my grand-daughter graduated from Chico Saturday. Keep that Wiex (sp) flying but of course keep on with the Piet. Jim B. Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol on wheels Tail surfaces done Wing ribs done Corvair engine On May 23, 2010, Ray Krause wrote: Mike,Unfortunately I will not be attending the flyin this Saturday, June 5. Too many commitments. Maybe next time.Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Groah To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:09 PMSubject: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Hello everyone, It's now just two and a half weeks away from the Pietenpol gathering at Frazier Lake California (a nice grass strip). I just thought I'd send out a reminder and get people thinking about it again. If you've said you're coming then I already have that in my notes. If you're coming and you haven't let Charlie or myself know, then please do. It's not mandatory that you let us know you're coming, but it would be nice for planning purposes. Charlie Miller (our host) and my phone numbers are also on the info sheet; see attached pdf file. I'm looking forward to seeing others who are crazy about Pietenpols. Bring your Pietenpol, or construction photo album to share with everyone! Mike Groah Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail wheel backing From: "schuerrman" I'm almost ready to flip the fuse, all I have to do is install some kind of tail wheel backing. Any ideas about size and location? Maybe a better question is "what's the best way to search the archives for specific questions?" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298730#298730 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail wheel backing From: Ryan Mueller http://www.matronics.com/search/ Select Pietenpol from the drop-down. I prefer "3 frame, Index" under the Output Method. 1. You can search for single words by just typing in the word and clicking Begin Search. 2. If you want to search for a phrase, just enter in the words and search. For example, if I wanted to find the phrase "tailwheel reinforcement" I would type it in just like that (minus the quotes). This will find every instance in a message where the word "tailwheel" is followed immediately by "reinforcement". The problem with searching for a phrase is that whoever was writing about the topic may have been talking about tailwheel reinforcement, but never actually used that phrase. They may have sprinkled both words about liberally in their post, just not together. If you search for my example above you will see you find zero results. Which brings me to method... 3. To search for multiple words in a post that do not necessarily have to be combined in a phrase, put an ampersand (&) between the words. I would take my above example and instead type it into the search box as "tailwheel & reinforcement" (again, minus the quotes). If you do so you will see that it actually returns two results instead of none. One of them is Mike Cuy mentioning how he reinforced that are for his tailwheel setup. 4. Finally, you can use the | character between two words to mean OR (shift and the backslash key will get it usually). If I searched for "tailwheel | reinforcement I will find all posts that contain one word or the other, or both. >From there it's just experimentation. Try to think which key words or phrases would have been written regarding the topic you wish to search about. Maybe I want to see what people have posted about Corvair engine baffling. Well, people may talk about the Corvair in their post, and the engine baffles, but they may not ever use the phrase "Corvair baffles". I would go ahead and search for "Corvair & baffles" and see what that produced. I could then try "Corvair & baffling". I might even try "Corvair & cooling", as there may be posts out there about Corvair engine cooling that may have info I am looking for but that don't necessarily use the words baffle or baffling. Hopefully that's at least as clear as mud. :P Ryan On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:27 PM, schuerrman wrote: > > I'm almost ready to flip the fuse, all I have to do is install some kind of > tail wheel backing. Any ideas about size and location? Maybe a better > question is "what's the best way to search the archives for specific > questions?" > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298730#298730 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail wheel backing From: "schuerrman" Ryan, Thanks, this REALLy helps. I'm sure that any of my questions have been asked for decades, and I really don't want to bother y'all with questions that have been asked before. I hear that the search engine is a great tool, and I've put in key words but I'm not sure that I was getting it right. thanks again. steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298759#298759 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail wheel backing From: Ryan Mueller Your welcome! Ryan do not archive On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 3:16 PM, schuerrman wrote: > > Ryan, > > Thanks, this REALLy helps. I'm sure that any of my questions have been > asked for decades, and I really don't want to bother y'all with questions > that have been asked before. I hear that the search engine is a great tool, > and I've put in key words but I'm not sure that I was getting it right. > thanks again. > > steve > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298759#298759 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tail wheel backing From: "Catdesigns" This is how Mike Cuy installed his tail wheel. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/tailspring2.jpg http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/tailspring.jpg Chris -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298774#298774 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:00 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Real Progress! From: "echobravo4" Rib jig is just about done pre-bend jig is done and wood is on the way! do not archive -------- I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298781#298781 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:03 PM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank I have been flying with my riveted/soldered galvanized tank for about 8 years. I got the theory from Ed Sampson while sitting under a tree at a B'head reunion in about 1999 and it works very well. I wrote an article about it and even mailed out a bunch of plans and instructions to those who asked. There is no mystery to doing things the old fashioned way except to those who are caught up in thinking that the latest technology or their own theories just have to be better than the way the pioneers did it. If you email me off-list, I'll try to locate some of the sheets that I wrote back then and get them to you.....or just give me a call! I can walk you through the process verbally 'cuz it ain't rocket science and you won't need a video unless you're under 30. Larry W. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:02 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Real Progress! EB Here's some sound advice... Get thru about 1/2 your ribs, then quit and do some more fun stuff. It drives everyone nuts when you leave "18 ribs" on your signature for 2+ years!! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of echobravo4 Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 4:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Real Progress! Rib jig is just about done pre-bend jig is done and wood is on the way! do not archive -------- I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298781#298781 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel tank From: "Billy McCaskill" Regardless of the type of flux, whether a brushed-on liquid or paste, or in the core of the solder, it will need to be neutralized with the baking soda solution to prevent oxidation of the metal. The whole purpose of the flux is to remove any coatings or impurities from the surface of the metal so that the solder will make the proper mechanical bond with the steel. And when the heat hits the metal, the flux will run to places that it wasn't intended to go. There's no reason a properly riveted and soldered galvanized tank would be unsafe or unusable for a Piet. Plus, it can be used with either avgas or autogas interchangeably without fear of ethanol dissolving the resin as it might in a fiberglass tank. This is how I plan to do my tank when I get to that point (still probably years away from that point...). Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL kipandbeth(at)earthlink.n wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the zinc WERE burned off, I'd think > solder would flow to those areas and you'd be OK. If the galvanizing > merely melted, it would mix with the solder - still shouldn't be a > problem. Most of my soldering experience is on copper & brass pipe, > but from what I've observed, with adequate flux, solder will flow to > anyplace there's a properly cleaned surface, but no further. > > I'd avoid acid core, rosin core or any kind of core & go strictly > with brushed on flux. > > Kip Gardner > > > > > > > > -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tailfeathers almost done Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298805#298805 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:38 PM PST US From: "Ray Krause" Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering Will anyone be staying over for Sunday, June 6? It is possible that I cold be there for Sunday. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 8:50 AM Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering > > > Hi Ray, > We will miss you at the Piet gathering. Was close to your area this > weekend; my grand-daughter graduated from Chico Saturday. > Keep that Wiex (sp) flying but of course keep on with the Piet. > Jim B. > > Jim Boyer > Santa Rosa, CA > Pietenpol on wheels > Tail surfaces done > Wing ribs done > Corvair engine > > > On May 23, 2010, Ray Krause wrote: > > Mike, Unfortunately I will not be attending the flyin this Saturday, June > 5. Too many commitments. Maybe next time. Ray Krause > ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Groah To: > pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:09 PMSubject: > Pietenpol-List: California Pietenpol Gathering > Hello everyone, > > It's now just two and a half weeks away from the Pietenpol gathering at > Frazier Lake California (a nice grass strip). I just thought I'd send out > a reminder and get people thinking about it again. If you've said you're > coming then I already have that in my notes. If you're coming and you > haven't let Charlie or myself know, then please do. It's not mandatory > that you let us know you're coming, but it would be nice for planning > purposes. Charlie Miller (our host) and my phone numbers are also on the > info sheet; see attached pdf file. I'm looking forward to seeing others > who are crazy about Pietenpols. Bring your Pietenpol, or construction > photo album to share with everyone! > > > Mike Groah > > Do Not Archive > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.