Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Tue 06/22/10


Total Messages Posted: 40



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:05 AM - performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
     2. 09:12 AM - Kringle's Curious Question about projects (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation])
     3. 09:40 AM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c 	weight (Ryan Mueller)
     4. 10:35 AM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight (dgaldrich)
     5. 10:49 AM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight (Jack Phillips)
     6. 11:43 AM - Re: Kringle's Curious Question about projects (Kringle)
     7. 12:06 PM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight (shad bell)
     8. 12:33 PM - What Prop is on your A-75? (kmordecai001@comcast.net)
     9. 01:19 PM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c 	weight (Matt Wash)
    10. 01:22 PM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c 	weight (Matt Wash)
    11. 01:52 PM - Tail weight (skellytown flyer)
    12. 02:00 PM - Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (skellytown flyer)
    13. 02:13 PM - Re: Tail weight (Perry Rhoads)
    14. 02:19 PM - Re: Tail weight (skellytown flyer)
    15. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (Ryan Mueller)
    16. 02:32 PM - Re: Tail weight (Skip Gadd)
    17. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: Tail weight (Perry Rhoads)
    18. 03:13 PM - Re: Tail weight (skellytown flyer)
    19. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (Jeff Boatright)
    20. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (Lagowski Morrow)
    21. 04:33 PM - Corvair powered Piet in Spain... (Michael Silvius)
    22. 04:34 PM - Re: Tail weight (Thomas Bernie)
    23. 05:18 PM - elt regulations (shad bell)
    24. 05:38 PM - Before Radar (Allan Macklem)
    25. 05:52 PM - Re: Corvair powered Piet in Spain... (John Hofmann)
    26. 06:01 PM - Re: Corvair powered Piet in Spain... (Ryan Mueller)
    27. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (helspersew@aol.com)
    28. 06:52 PM - Re: Before Radar (shad bell)
    29. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (Matt Wash)
    30. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight (Clif Dawson)
    31. 08:42 PM - Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs (Paul N. Peckham)
    32. 08:49 PM - Re: Before Radar (Clif Dawson)
    33. 09:09 PM - couple of new guy questions... (j_dunavin)
    34. 09:22 PM - prevent splinters with duct tape (Dan Yocum)
    35. 09:28 PM - Re: couple of new guy questions... (j_dunavin)
    36. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: couple of new guy questions... (Matt Wash)
    37. 10:04 PM - Re: Re: couple of new guy questions... (Gerry Holland)
    38. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: couple of new guy questions... (Gerry Holland)
    39. 10:07 PM - Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight (GliderMike)
    40. 10:19 PM - Re: Corvair powered Piet in Spain... (GliderMike)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 09:05:52 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    After fixing some ignition and timing issues and installing new lower plugs I did some performance numbers last night with the airplane. Takeoff weight with me and full fuel was 1034 lbs. 80F OAT and climbing at 40-45 mph yielded 500 fpm rate of climb. Power off stall at 29 mph, power on stall didn't even happen when the air s peed was well below 30 and I didn't have the guts to pull it back to make it break. Thinking my conservative climb speed of 55-60 is making my angle of climb ( and rate) too anemic. Still learning after 12 years of flying it. Not remembering much of anything from ground school and private pilot theor y classes, does an airplane's power on stall speed increase with gross weight ? So say I went up and tried more power on s talls with a 170 lb. passenger given the same conditions as I flew last night ? I know air density makes a difference in indicated air speed as on colder d ays I appear to have a faster cruise speed...and maybe I do with the prop/engine being more efficient in dense air. Also for the record I did a full-throttle, level flight run to see where I would place in a speed dash with Dan Yocum and would come in second place. Max throttle yielded 2350 rpm and 84 mph. Mike C.


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:12:36 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: Kringle's Curious Question about projects
    Dear John, Sometimes partially built Pietenpol projects are put on display at Brodhead but normally this isn't the case. To see hundreds of photos of Pietenpols in various stages of construction you don't even had to leave your computer, run your camper generator, or hope for WiFi at Brodhead but just check out Chris Tracy's fantastic photo collection he's graciously posted for us: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/ Mike C. Headwinds, rough mags, warm beer, and full port-a-potties


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:40:38 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    We must remember that Dan's Piet is a bonafide air racer....he's flying with a stacked deck. :) On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: > > Also for the record I did a full-throttle, level flight run to see where I > would place in a speed dash with Dan Yocum and would come in > second place. Max throttle yielded 2350 rpm and 84 mph. > > Mike C. > > > * > > * > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:35:56 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com>
    So the logic goes like this: Let's say you have two identical aircraft, one weighing 900 lbs and one weighing 1000 lbs. The heavier aircraft will need higher total lift, given steady state conditions, like cruise at 70 mph. Since lift varies almost directly with angle of attack, the heavier one needs a higher angle of attack (more lift) to stay even. Airfoils stall at a particular and specific angle of attack regardless of gross weight. The air flowing over the top of the airfoil separates and lift goes away and it doesn't matter what the weight is. As you slow the aircraft down, the angle of attack increases but the heavier aircraft started with a higher angle so it reaches "stall" first. Power-on stall occurs a a slower airspeed because the engine is providing a significant amount of lift due to the nose high attitude so the airfoil sees what it thinks is a lighter gross weight. If you have enough power, you can't induce a power-on stall. I wonder if I can hang one of Sean Tucker's AEIOU and sometimes Y 580's on my Piet. Would certainly solve the tail heavy issue once and for all. Might have to drink more beer. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302039#302039


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:49:15 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    Stall speed (either power-on or power-off) occurs at a HIGHER airspeed at higher weight. That's why performance figures for certified aircraft are typically shown at gross weight. Think about it, if the stall speed went down as the weight goes up, you could therorectically add enough weight so it would never stall, and the fatter the pilot the better the shortfield performance would be. The stall actually occurs at the critical angle of attack (which is a function of the airfoil design), regardless of airspeed. That's why you can get into an accelerated stall at high airspeeds (such as entering a snap roll, or pulling out of a steep dive). For this reason, an AOA meter is a better indication of impending stall than an airspeed indicator, but since they tend to be more expensive, we use the airspeed as the indication. I've always climbed my Piet at 50 - 55 mph, and get between 100 and 500 fpm depending on loading and density altitude. Maybe tomorrow I'll do some test flying and try it at 40 - 45 and see if I can get better climb. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight After fixing some ignition and timing issues and installing new lower plugs I did some performance numbers last night with the airplane. Takeoff weight with me and full fuel was 1034 lbs. 80F OAT and climbing at 40-45 mph yielded 500 fpm rate of climb. Power off stall at 29 mph, power on stall didn't even happen when the air speed was well below 30 and I didn't have the guts to pull it back to make it break. Thinking my conservative climb speed of 55-60 is making my angle of climb (and rate) too anemic. Still learning after 12 years of flying it. Not remembering much of anything from ground school and private pilot theory classes, does an airplane's power on stall speed increase with gross weight ? So say I went up and tried more power on stalls with a 170 lb. passenger given the same conditions as I flew last night ? I know air density makes a difference in indicated air speed as on colder days I appear to have a faster cruise speed.and maybe I do with the prop/engine being more efficient in dense air. Also for the record I did a full-throttle, level flight run to see where I would place in a speed dash with Dan Yocum and would come in second place. Max throttle yielded 2350 rpm and 84 mph. Mike C.


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:43:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Kringle's Curious Question about projects
    From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles@msn.com>
    Awesome website! Thanks Mike -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302055#302055


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:06:28 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    Mike, one thing I remember about aircraft C/G that can help performance, An airplane with a aft c/g will stall slower and fly faster than the same aircraft with a fwd c/g. Controlability, and stability will however suffer if the c/g gets out of the allowed range. If I remember correctly, it is an effect of less drag (from the downward "lift") being generated by the horiztal stab/elevator to keep the nose down at high speed, and more downward force is available to keep the tail down when close to stall, the full aerodynamic downforce of the horiz tail, and the force from the c/g being further aft. I don't know if anyone on here even cares about this, but there it is. Shad


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:33:32 PM PST US
    From: kmordecai001@comcast.net
    Subject: What Prop is on your A-75?
    Lorin, What prop are you running on your A-75?=C2- I have a Hegy 72 x 42, which is too much prop for the A-75, and=C2-a Performance Props 73 x 39, which is a little too flat......it sounds like yours is right on the money! Dave Mordecai NX520SF Panacea, FL As I'm feeling this plane out, getting a better idea of performance. With t he climb prop on, she gets to pattern altitude pretty quick. That being said - cruis e at 2350 rpm gives me an indicated airspeed of 83-85 mph. WOT shows a little over 90 and 2550 rpm. I like this Continental A-75! Fresh overhall two year s ago, 50 hours on it now, and compressions are testing at 78/80 across the b oard. -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX GN-1 N30PP


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:19:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    From: Matt Wash <mattwash@mattwash.com>
    Shad, You're correct. With a forward CoG you are increasing your AoA due to the downward force on the tail. Increased AoA means a reduced stall, increased downward force means more drag. That said, stall recovery of an an aircraft that has an aft CoG will be more difficult (read, higher spin potential) than one with a forward CoG. Regards, ~Matt On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:04 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Mike, one thing I remember about aircraft C/G that can help performance, An > airplane with a aft c/g will stall slower and fly faster than the same > aircraft with a fwd c/g. Controlability, and stability will however suffer > if the c/g gets out of the allowed range. If I remember correctly, it is an > effect of less drag (from the downward "lift") being generated by the > horiztal stab/elevator to keep the nose down at high speed, and more > downward force is available to keep the tail down when close to stall, the > full aerodynamic downforce of the horiz tail, and the force from the c/g > being further aft. > > I don't know if anyone on here even cares about this, but there it is. > > Shad > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:22:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    From: Matt Wash <mattwash@mattwash.com>
    Pardon my failure to proofread. Should read "means an *increased *stall speed." ~Matt On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Matt Wash <mattwash@mattwash.com> wrote: > Shad, > > You're correct. With a forward CoG you are increasing your AoA due to the > downward force on the tail. Increased AoA means a reduced stall, increased > downward force means more drag. > > That said, stall recovery of an an aircraft that has an aft CoG will be > more difficult (read, higher spin potential) than one with a forward CoG. > > Regards, > ~Matt > > > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:04 PM, shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Mike, one thing I remember about aircraft C/G that can help performance, >> An airplane with a aft c/g will stall slower and fly faster than the same >> aircraft with a fwd c/g. Controlability, and stability will however suffer >> if the c/g gets out of the allowed range. If I remember correctly, it is an >> effect of less drag (from the downward "lift") being generated by the >> horiztal stab/elevator to keep the nose down at high speed, and more >> downward force is available to keep the tail down when close to stall, the >> full aerodynamic downforce of the horiz tail, and the force from the c/g >> being further aft. >> >> I don't know if anyone on here even cares about this, but there it is. >> >> Shad >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:52:21 PM PST US
    Subject: Tail weight
    From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
    OK help me guys- I have come to a point where I have about 99% of the airplane is together. lacking a lot of screws and a few strips of gap seal. but had to see where I was at with my weight and balance.and the talk about more aft CG giving better speed with less down elevator required.or at least that is what I think I heard. and I hear of a lot of birds flying with 30 to 50 pounds on the tail.I ran my numbers several times and every way I figured it fits within the limits of 22% to 34% of chord but close to the back. I am waiting till about the last thing to permanently install the battery because by my thinking it is easier to shift it than add needless weight.anyway- I'll admit it-I am at 13 pounds tail weight empty and that sounds extremely low to me.I have done everything I can to level the plane and repeat weigh it and use different scales but the tail wheel is that light. maybe due to the distance from the wing to the tail being a GN-1 and altered some by DJ it would be different.I was even lighter and I removed the nose tank and made and installed a center section tank and it is just bugging me that maybe I'm missing something here.but if anyone is willing to e-mail me and check my figures I would appreciate a second opinion.for what it's worth- they are as follows. datum firewall. leading edge 18" back. main wheels 24 1/4" back tail-wheel 185 1/2" back. passenger arm 37 1/2" pilot arm 71" fuel arm 42 1/2" it will hold 15 gallons.I weigh 210 and figured a 180# passenger for full load and most rear CG with full fuel. thanks for any help. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302078#302078


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:00:01 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
    I don't know if this will allow me to go ahead and get my phase 1 Airworthiness without going bankrupt or not-but here may be one loophole for me at the start. There may be another loop-hole. FAR 91.207 (f)(3)... (f) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to (3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began; Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302079#302079


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:13:14 PM PST US
    From: "Perry Rhoads" <prhoads61@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Tail weight
    Need the weight of each main when the airplane is level to figure w/b. Perry Rhoads N12939 ----- Original Message ----- From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail weight > <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> > > OK help me guys- I have come to a point where I have about 99% of the > airplane is together. lacking a lot of screws and a few strips of gap > seal. but had to see where I was at with my weight and balance.and the > talk about more aft CG giving better speed with less down elevator > required.or at least that is what I think I heard. and I hear of a lot of > birds flying with 30 to 50 pounds on the tail.I ran my numbers several > times and every way I figured it fits within the limits of 22% to 34% of > chord but close to the back. I am waiting till about the last thing to > permanently install the battery because by my thinking it is easier to > shift it than add needless weight.anyway- I'll admit it-I am at 13 pounds > tail weight empty and that sounds extremely low to me.I have done > everything I can to level the plane and repeat weigh it and use different > scales but the tail wheel is that light. maybe due to the distance from > the wing to the tail being a GN-1 and altered some by DJ it would! > be different.I was even lighter and I removed the nose tank and made and > installed a center section tank and it is just bugging me that maybe I'm > missing something here.but if anyone is willing to e-mail me and check my > figures I would appreciate a second opinion.for what it's worth- they are > as follows. datum firewall. leading edge 18" back. main wheels 24 1/4" > back tail-wheel 185 1/2" back. passenger arm 37 1/2" pilot arm 71" fuel > arm 42 1/2" it will hold 15 gallons.I weigh 210 and figured a 180# > passenger for full load and most rear CG with full fuel. thanks for any > help. Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302078#302078 > > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:19:38 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Tail weight
    From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
    You know I was thinking I left that out as soon as I hit send. the right is 373# and left 365#. she is a Sow but still I think flight is possible. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302084#302084


    Message 15


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    Time: 02:32:01 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Only problem there is that you would not be engaged in training....you can' t give yourself flight training in your own airplane. :P (f)(4) says: Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing. That would probably be the line that would allow you to get by without one for Phase I. However you would have to have one for phase II; anecdotal statements out there on the 'net seem to indicate that the DAR/FAA rep may very well only give you a Limited Airworthiness Certificate for Phase I flight with no ELT, and may want to come back out to inspect the ELT installation before issuing your Special Airworthiness Cert. Since you are going to have to spend the money anyway it might be worth it to get the ELT and install it before the airplane is finished, to avoid hassle later on It may be worthwhile to figure out which FSDO/DAR you will be using, and give them a call and run it by them as well. Ryan On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 3:59 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>wr ote: > skellflyer1@yahoo.com> > > I don't know if this will allow me to go ahead and get my phase 1 > Airworthiness without going bankrupt or not-but here may be one loophole for > me at the start. > > There may be another loop-hole. FAR 91.207 (f)(3)... > (f) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to=97 > > (3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely with in > a > 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight > operations > began; > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302079#302079 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 02:32:14 PM PST US
    From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Tail weight
    Raymond, The tail weight(the scale under the tail wheel) is strictly a function of the placement of the main gear, nothing to do with the CG. My GN1 tail weight is 24 lbs level and about 55 lbs at 3 point attitude. Skip > From: skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Date: 6/22/2010 4:55:07 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail weight > <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> > > OK help me guys- I have come to a point where I have about 99% of the airplane is together. lacking a lot of screws and a few strips of gap seal. but had to see where I was at with my weight and balance.and the talk about more aft CG giving better speed with less down elevator required.or at least that is what I think I heard. and I hear of a lot of birds flying with 30 to 50 pounds on the tail.I ran my numbers several times and every way I figured it fits within the limits of 22% to 34% of chord but close to the back. I am waiting till about the last thing to permanently install the battery because by my thinking it is easier to shift it than add needless weight.anyway- I'll admit it-I am at 13 pounds tail weight empty and that sounds extremely low to me.I have done everything I can to level the plane and repeat weigh it and use different scales but the tail wheel is that light. maybe due to the distance from the wing to the tail being a GN-1 and altered some by DJ it would! > be different.I was even lighter and I removed the nose tank and made and installed a center section tank and it is just bugging me that maybe I'm missing something here.but if anyone is willing to e-mail me and check my figures I would appreciate a second opinion.for what it's worth- they are as follows. datum firewall. leading edge 18" back. main wheels 24 1/4" back tail-wheel 185 1/2" back. passenger arm 37 1/2" pilot arm 71" fuel arm 42 1/2" it will hold 15 gallons.I weigh 210 and figured a 180# passenger for full load and most rear CG with full fuel. thanks for any help. Raymond


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:00:37 PM PST US
    From: "Perry Rhoads" <prhoads61@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Tail weight
    Raymond, Using your weights and measurements, you're 37.20 aft of datum with that loading of 1231 gross. If you have a 60"chord, 34% is 20.40, or 38.40 aft of datum. You're in! These figures have been done out of boredom at work, so please don't go by anything I say. Perry Rhoads N12939 ----- Original Message ----- From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail weight > <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> > > You know I was thinking I left that out as soon as I hit send. the right > is 373# and left 365#. > she is a Sow but still I think flight is possible. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302084#302084 > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 03:13:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Tail weight
    From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1@yahoo.com>
    Thanks Perry-that was my results too. I guess like the previous message indicated a lot of the reason for my light tail is the mains are father back in relation to the CG. I just hadn't thought of that.the biggest drawback i see there is it will be easier to flip it on it's nose if I go to sleep and don't keep the stick back on the ground or get aggressive with the disc brakes. kinda wish I had a set of those weak band brakes myself. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302090#302090


    Message 19


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    Time: 04:21:18 PM PST US
    From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    What's an ELT?


    Message 20


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    Time: 04:31:36 PM PST US
    From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    An extra long tongue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri@emory.edu> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs > > What's an ELT? > > > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 04:33:42 PM PST US
    From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius@gwi.net>
    Subject: Corvair powered Piet in Spain...
    http://asociacionaviacionexperimental.com/index.php/revista


    Message 22


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    Time: 04:34:03 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Tail weight
    From: Thomas Bernie <tsbernie@earthlink.net>
    Raymond, Look in the archives you'll see discussions about the aft cg issues I had with my GN-1. I had to make a motor mount 5" longer than the plans called for, ( after the C-85 was mounted on the J-3 mount and the cowling was in progress). One thing I did that helped, was to derive the correct pilot and passenger moments by actual weighing and in my case they were shorter than the plans said. If you do the w&b correctly, the numbers don't lie. At some point you have to draw the line on the maximum allowable aft cg. Tom On Jun 22, 2010, at 4:51 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > > OK help me guys- I have come to a point where I have about 99% of the airplane is together. lacking a lot of screws and a few strips of gap seal. but had to see where I was at with my weight and balance.and the talk about more aft CG giving better speed with less down elevator required.or at least that is what I think I heard. and I hear of a lot of birds flying with 30 to 50 pounds on the tail.I ran my numbers several times and every way I figured it fits within the limits of 22% to 34% of chord but close to the back. I am waiting till about the last thing to permanently install the battery because by my thinking it is easier to shift it than add needless weight.anyway- I'll admit it-I am at 13 pounds tail weight empty and that sounds extremely low to me.I have done everything I can to level the plane and repeat weigh it and use different scales but the tail wheel is that light. maybe due to the distance from the wing to the tail being a GN-1 and altered some by DJ it would! > be different.I was even lighter and I removed the nose tank and made and installed a center section tank and it is just bugging me that maybe I'm missing something here.but if anyone is willing to e-mail me and check my figures I would appreciate a second opinion.for what it's worth- they are as follows. datum firewall. leading edge 18" back. main wheels 24 1/4" back tail-wheel 185 1/2" back. passenger arm 37 1/2" pilot arm 71" fuel arm 42 1/2" it will hold 15 gallons.I weigh 210 and figured a 180# passenger for full load and most rear CG with full fuel. thanks for any help. Raymond > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302078#302078 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 05:18:23 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: elt regulations
    I haven't read it for a while but I know single place aircraft are not required to carry one. Shad


    Message 24


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    Time: 05:38:33 PM PST US
    From: "Allan Macklem" <awmacklem@cox.net>
    Subject: Before Radar
    Interesting to know how potention air attacks were detected before Radar. Some of you may have used this equipment, but it was considerably before my time.:-)) Allan Macklem "I have the plans" These look like a joke, but were actual "hearing aids" to detect airplanes..... Before Radar, How Were Air Attacks Detected? With old time hearing aids! STRANGE ACOUSTIC "EARS" BEFORE RADAR -ON A SWIVEL STRANGE ACOUSTIC "EARS" BEFORE RADAR -GERMAN STRANGE ACOUSTIC "EARS" BEFORE RADAR -ON WHEELS STRANGE ACOUSTIC "EARS" BEFORE RADAR -ENGLAND ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 13:35:00 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 36:00


    Message 25


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    Time: 05:52:22 PM PST US
    From: John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
    Subject: Re: Corvair powered Piet in Spain...
    I don't much care for his struts. El Pietenpol. That is Spanish for "The Pietenpol." please do not archive. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2424 American Lane Madison, WI 53704 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Jun 22, 2010, at 7:28 PM, Michael Silvius wrote: > > http://asociacionaviacionexperimental.com/index.php/revista > > > > >


    Message 26


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    Time: 06:01:09 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Corvair powered Piet in Spain...
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    With a "Cig=FCe=F1al Romperse Corvair", no less... :P do not archive On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:20 PM, John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>wr ote: > I don't much care for his struts. > > El Pietenpol. That is Spanish for "The Pietenpol." > > please do not archive. > > > John Hofmann > Vice-President, Information Technology > The Rees Group, Inc. > 2424 American Lane > Madison, WI 53704 > Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 > Fax: 608.443.2474 > Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com > > On Jun 22, 2010, at 7:28 PM, Michael Silvius wrote: > > > http: - The --> &n=========== ============ > > > <http://asociacionaviacionexperimental.com/index.php/revista> > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 06:32:53 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    From: helspersew@aol.com
    If those FCC clowns think I am going to shell out $750.00 for a worthless pile of crap then they have another thing coming. I will be a law breaker if this is not repealed by cooler heads. DON'T get me started!!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 22, 2010 4:27 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs Only problem there is that you would not be engaged in training....you can 't give yourself flight training in your own airplane. :P (f)(4) says: Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to desig n and testing. That would probably be the line that would allow you to get by without one for Phase I. However you would have to have one for phase II; anecdotal statements out there on the 'net seem to indicate that the DAR/FAA rep ma y very well only give you a Limited Airworthiness Certificate for Phase I flight with no ELT, and may want to come back out to inspect the ELT inst allation before issuing your Special Airworthiness Cert. Since you are goi ng to have to spend the money anyway it might be worth it to get the ELT and install it before the airplane is finished, to avoid hassle later on It may be worthwhile to figure out which FSDO/DAR you will be using, and give them a call and run it by them as well. Ryan On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 3:59 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wrote: o.com> I don't know if this will allow me to go ahead and get my phase 1 Airworth iness without going bankrupt or not-but here may be one loophole for me at the start. There may be another loop-hole. FAR 91.207 (f)(3)... (f) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to=94 (3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely withi n a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operat ions began; Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302079#302079 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== ===========


    Message 28


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    Time: 06:52:03 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Before Radar
    That's what I need after a 30 min flight in the corvair, and the line boy asks if I need fuel. My wife would swear I need tose hearing aids as well, when she asks me to take out the trash. Shad


    Message 29


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    Time: 07:13:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    From: Matt Wash <mattwash@mattwash.com>
    You could go for 90 days following your phase 2 or longer depending how important seat #2 is. *(9) Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person. * *(10) An aircraft during any period for which the transmitter has been temporarily removed for inspection, repair, modification, or replacement, subject to the following: * *(i) No person may operate the aircraft unless the aircraft records contain an entry which includes the date of initial removal, the make, model, seria l number, and reason for removing the transmitter, and a placard located in view of the pilot to show "ELT not installed." * *(ii) No person may operate the aircraft more than 90 days after the ELT is initially removed from the aircraft; and * You could stretch it 90 days while your 121.5 ELT is removed for replacement. You could stretch it forever if you removed the front seatbelt since I thin k this would create an "Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person." . http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-207-FAR.shtml ~Matt On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote: > Only problem there is that you would not be engaged in training....you > can't give yourself flight training in your own airplane. :P > > (f)(4) says: Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to desi gn > and testing. > > That would probably be the line that would allow you to get by without on e > for Phase I. However you would have to have one for phase II; anecdotal > statements out there on the 'net seem to indicate that the DAR/FAA rep ma y > very well only give you a Limited Airworthiness Certificate for Phase I > flight with no ELT, and may want to come back out to inspect the ELT > installation before issuing your Special Airworthiness Cert. Since you ar e > going to have to spend the money anyway it might be worth it to get the E LT > and install it before the airplane is finished, to avoid hassle later on > > It may be worthwhile to figure out which FSDO/DAR you will be using, and > give them a call and run it by them as well. > > Ryan > > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 3:59 PM, skellytown flyer <skellflyer1@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> skellflyer1@yahoo.com> >> >> I don't know if this will allow me to go ahead and get my phase 1 >> Airworthiness without going bankrupt or not-but here may be one loophole for >> me at the start. >> >> There may be another loop-hole. FAR 91.207 (f)(3)... >> (f) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to=97 >> >> (3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely >> within a >> 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight >> operations >> began; >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302079#302079 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > >


    Message 30


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    Time: 08:12:23 PM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    With power on the inner six ft or so has a much faster and straighter flow of air over it so may not ever see a stall speed airflow thus at least a bit of the wing thinks it's still flying merrily along. ( Now about that radiator!) :-) The Lockheed P3 Orion has half the wingspan behind prop blades. It could be slowed down to a GROUNDSPEED of considerably less than power off stall. I have talked to a couple of retired Canadian Forces SAR pilots that flew these things. This was a routine procedure out off both coasts on SAR missions. The rpm would be brought up high with high AOA when there was need to go slow. So much direct flow over the wing they could almost hover. Now wouldn't that be a sight! Clif > <dgaldrich@embarqmail.com> > > So the logic goes like this: Let's say you have two identical aircraft, > one weighing 900 lbs and one weighing 1000 lbs. The heavier aircraft will > need higher total lift, given steady state conditions, like cruise at 70 > mph. Since lift varies almost directly with angle of attack, the heavier > one needs a higher angle of attack (more lift) to stay even. > > Airfoils stall at a particular and specific angle of attack regardless of > gross weight. The air flowing over the top of the airfoil separates and > lift goes away and it doesn't matter what the weight is. As you slow the > aircraft down, the angle of attack increases but the heavier aircraft > started with a higher angle so it reaches "stall" first. > > Power-on stall occurs a a slower airspeed because the engine is providing > a significant amount of lift due to the nose high attitude so the airfoil > sees what it thinks is a lighter gross weight. If you have enough power, > you can't induce a power-on stall. I wonder if I can hang one of Sean > Tucker's AEIOU and sometimes Y 580's on my Piet. Would certainly solve > the tail heavy issue once and for all. Might have to drink more beer. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302039#302039 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 11:36:00


    Message 31


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    Time: 08:42:20 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: FCC bans 121.5 ELTs
    From: "Paul N. Peckham" <peckham9@countryspeed.com>
    Eloquently stated Dan. I'd like to add another (to paraphrase Davy Crockett): They can all go to hell. I'm going to Brodhead. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302149#302149


    Message 32


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    Time: 08:49:27 PM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Before Radar
    And then, of course, there was "Radar". What would Mash have been without him? Clif Interesting to know how potention air attacks were detected before Radar. Some of you may have used this equipment, but it was considerably before my time.:-)) Allan Macklem "I have the plans"


    Message 33


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    Time: 09:09:27 PM PST US
    Subject: couple of new guy questions...
    From: "j_dunavin" <j_dunavin@hotmail.com>
    I tried a search and found a lot of info, but had some specific questions. 1. what are the performance numbers, with a corvair motor. As in fuel burn, clime rate, cruse, CG issues, the need of a special carb, can i burn 100LL, ect.? 2. Is there a standard set up for wire wheels and brakes? I've seen talk about buying this hub here and getting a rim there. Are there a set of known good motorcycle wheels to use? 3. This may go with question 1, but what about gross weight? I'm concerned that my dad and I both will not be able to fly in there as he is about 200 and I'm 225. Will we be OK so long as the gross weight does not exceed X number? Is that number fluid, in that since we will have extra power with the corvair motor we'll be ok? 4. I've seen a lot of guys use the O200... what are the advantages there? Thanks for any input Joe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302154#302154


    Message 34


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    Time: 09:22:21 PM PST US
    From: Dan Yocum <yocum@fnal.gov>
    Subject: prevent splinters with duct tape
    I believe Mr. Kringle asked about preventing splinters in plywood. Today I cut a few hundred gusset pieces by first ripping long 7/8" wide strips (with the grain - no splinters), then stacking them up and duct taping them together with looong strips of duct tape. I only applied tape to the rear side of the stack which is where the ply likes to splinter. Voila! No splinters (well, considerably fewer). I also use a circular saw blade with 60 teeth - considerably more than a normal table saw blade. So, there ya go. Is there nothing duct tape can't be used for? Dan PS in the picture you can see some of the pieces I didn't duct tape together - splinters! -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."


    Message 35


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    Time: 09:28:49 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: couple of new guy questions...
    From: "j_dunavin" <j_dunavin@hotmail.com>
    also.. anyone know where i can buy vintage looking instruments? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302160#302160


    Message 36


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    Time: 09:49:03 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: couple of new guy questions...
    From: Matt Wash <mattwash@mattwash.com>
    http://www.aviation-antiques.com/instruments-1.html I haven't dealt with them personally, but they have actual vintage items. ~Matt On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:28 PM, j_dunavin <j_dunavin@hotmail.com> wrote: > > also.. anyone know where i can buy vintage looking instruments? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302160#302160 > >


    Message 37


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    Time: 10:04:38 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: couple of new guy questions...
    From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>
    > also.. anyone know where i can buy vintage looking instruments? Barnstormers, Ebay. Look at: www.aviation-antiques.com www.preferredairparts.com/homebuilt.htm Try Google for 'Antique Aircraft Gauges' There are plenty about but they need to be working (obvious...sorry) or repairable and be ready to pay some serious money in some cases. For the Pietenpol you might want to look at Vintage Vehicle sites to for Oil Pressure and Temp. You can get retro looking modern stuff too. Regards Gerry


    Message 38


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    Time: 10:06:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: couple of new guy questions...
    From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>
    http://www.aviation-antiques.com/instruments-1.html I haven't dealt with them personally, but they have actual vintage items. I have and I found them to be very helpful and I purchased oil pressure gauge and they also have some old style =8CContinental=B9 Engine Stickers. Regards Gerry in UK


    Message 39


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    Time: 10:07:25 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: performance numbers and stall speeds vs. a/c weight
    From: "GliderMike" <glidermikeg@yahoo.com>
    I disagree with the statement that an aircraft will stall at a lower airspeed with an aft cg. I knew skydivers that wouldn't jump a "Lodestall," oops, I meant a Lodestar, because they tended to stall if the airspeed was reduced much during exits. As the jumpers moved to the back of the aircraft, the cg became very much aft. I've heard more than one story about a Lodestar rolling over on its back like a cheap hooker as a group of skydivers got out. Beech 18's were bad about that also, but not as bad as the "Lodestall." -------- HOMEBUILDER Will WORK for Spruce Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302166#302166


    Message 40


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    Time: 10:19:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Corvair powered Piet in Spain...
    From: "GliderMike" <glidermikeg@yahoo.com>
    There is a photo (only one) of a Piet that is blue and white. I think maybe a different airplane than the one that comes up on the link. The one in the photo looks to have the wing much higher, or the upper longeron much lower than a standard Piet. My Spanish is extremely weak, but I was able to find it. It looks like they have a pretty wide variety of aircraft in the club/association. -------- HOMEBUILDER Will WORK for Spruce Long flights, smooth air, and soft landings, GliderMike, aka Mike Glasgow Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302169#302169




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