---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/12/10: 61 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:50 AM - Re: where is everyone getting their Spruce at? (j_dunavin) 2. 05:01 AM - Re: spark plug wires (airlion) 3. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: where is everyone getting their Spruce at? (Ben Charvet) 4. 06:25 AM - Re: Corvair motor mount (kevinpurtee) 5. 06:27 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue (Michael Perez) 6. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: where is everyone getting their Spruce at? (Michael Perez) 7. 06:43 AM - Public Lumber sitka intell. (Michael Perez) 8. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (Richard Schreiber) 9. 06:59 AM - Finally an honest man (TOM STINEMETZE) 10. 06:59 AM - Re: Public Lumber Sitka intell. (brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com) 11. 07:30 AM - Re: Corvair motor mount (coxwelljon) 12. 07:32 AM - Re: Finally an honest man (kevinpurtee) 13. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 14. 08:01 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 15. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (Rick Holland) 16. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (Rick Holland) 17. 08:34 AM - Re: Corvair motor mount (kevinpurtee) 18. 08:35 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Ryan Mueller) 19. 08:47 AM - Re: If I knew then what I know now.... (coxwelljon) 20. 08:49 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue (Ryan Mueller) 21. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (Brad Larson) 22. 09:14 AM - Re: Corvair motor mount (coxwelljon) 23. 09:22 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Michael Perez) 24. 09:35 AM - Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Jim Markle) 25. 09:38 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue (Michael Perez) 26. 09:43 AM - Re: spark plug wires (Rick Holland) 27. 09:56 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (coxwelljon) 28. 10:05 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 29. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Michael Perez) 30. 10:34 AM - Re: Finally an honest man (K5YAC) 31. 10:40 AM - Re: Re: Finally an honest man (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 32. 10:44 AM - Re: Public Lumber sitka intell. (j_dunavin) 33. 11:02 AM - Re: Public Lumber sitka intell. (j_dunavin) 34. 11:42 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue (Jack Phillips) 35. 11:56 AM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue (Ben Charvet) 36. 12:04 PM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers... (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 37. 12:08 PM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lover... (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 38. 12:10 PM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue (H RULE) 39. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (Jim Boyer) 40. 12:21 PM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers... (H RULE) 41. 12:52 PM - Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (BYD) 42. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Tim Willis) 43. 03:51 PM - fuel tank (Richard Schreiber) 44. 04:41 PM - cooling "eyebrow" sizing (Douwe Blumberg) 45. 05:39 PM - Re: Corvair motor mount (VanDy) 46. 06:01 PM - Re: Corvair motor mount (coxwelljon) 47. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Corvair motor mount (Gary Boothe) 48. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Michael Perez) 49. 06:21 PM - Re: cooling "eyebrow" sizing (coxwelljon) 50. 06:31 PM - Got an engine! (Kringle) 51. 06:39 PM - Brenham on Saturday - Hans (Oscar Zuniga) 52. 06:39 PM - Re: Got an engine! (VanDy) 53. 06:46 PM - Re: Got an engine! (Gary Boothe) 54. 06:47 PM - Re: Got an engine! (Rick Holland) 55. 06:50 PM - Re: fuel tank (Rick Holland) 56. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... (Rick Holland) 57. 07:38 PM - Re: Got an engine! (Ryan Mueller) 58. 07:44 PM - Re: Got an engine! (Rick Holland) 59. 07:47 PM - lee bottoms fly-in sept (shad bell) 60. 08:14 PM - A-7 Mag Switch (TriScout) 61. 10:18 PM - Re: Got an engine! (Billy McCaskill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:16 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: where is everyone getting their Spruce at? From: "j_dunavin" I think that my dad would also enjoy that aspect of it. How much do you figure your paying per board ft.? (though public lumber) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308477#308477 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:04 AM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spark plug wires Rick, I do not have the accel wires. Only the ones that William sent me. If I order them will I be able to slip them thru the plastic plate that attaches to the baffling? Gardiner. PS How close are you to flying? ________________________________ From: Rick Holland Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 10:26:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spark plug wires Are you using the WW recommended wires Gardiner? (Accel 5041 from Summit Racing). Mine are so hard to remove that I bust knuckles every time I have to pull one off, can't imagine one coming off by itself. Glad your Piet is performing so well, I wish my only problem now was a loose spark plug wire. rick On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:57 PM, airlion wrote: > >Hey listers, for you corvair engine guys, I am having trouble keeping the plug >wires connected. It seems that they are vibrating off or being blown off. >Anybody have a suggestion on how to secure them better.? I have 30 hours on the >plane now and the engine is running great. the temps are good and the trim is >fantastic. hands off and turns only with the rudder. After every flight I have >to open the cowl to make sure the plug wires are connected. This morning one was >loose. Cheers, Gardiner > > >========== >st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >========== >http://forums.matronics.com >========== >le, List Admin. >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >========== > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:17 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: where is everyone getting their Spruce at? If you don't mind using Douglas Fir and own a planer you could do what I did. I carefully selected appropriate boards from the select Douglas Fir section at Lowe's (took multiple trips). I bought 1x6 boards, planed them to 1/2 inch thick, then ripped 1/4 inch strips off to make my cap strips. I started out making test ribs with red cedar just for fun. My entire Piet is douglas fir and came in at 692 pounds. The EAA book on building with wood has a real good section on selecting wood, and would be a good read before you go to the lumberyard, no matter what you decide. Those cedar test ribs are now hanging in my hangar, my office, etc, and make a great conversation starter. Ben Charvet Long Fuse, A-65 43 hours on the Hobbs Taking the wife flying this morning On 8/11/2010 5:52 PM, j_dunavin wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "j_dunavin" > > We do have a planer at my Dad's home shop, so we could plane our own stuff. > $9 sounds a lot better than $20. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308411#308411 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: "kevinpurtee" 14 1/4" firewall to rear bolt holes. Long fuselage, no offset. Wing sets back 4". -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308490#308490 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:09 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real wor ld answers, as I seek the same. If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of f lying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which make s for a more relaxing long trip. Gap seals just need to fill a gap. Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel hinges . Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight. As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial .. With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years ) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician.- I worked 6 years at ou r NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC.- I am an A&P. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:02 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: where is everyone getting their Spruce at? I can back to you with real numbers, (at work now with no receipts) but I remember it being very, cheap. The guys there that I have dealt with have been very helpful and would even plane down the wider sides some at no charge. (just to clean them up a little...final planning still needs to be done.) I have been quite pleased with them and will continue to buy from them until something changes. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com I think that my dad would also enjoy that aspect of it. How much do you figure your paying per board ft.? (though public lumber) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:02 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Public Lumber sitka intell. For those interested, I just called Public Lumber to get the status on their sitka. They are currently out of sitka boards. They have a large shipment coming next week. I asked for a ball park price for 1" X 8" X 10'. I was told to figure about $7.00 a board foot. Now granted this price changes with thickness and width. Anyhoo, for those interested call Craig at 313-891-7125 Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:01 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount Thanks for the info Kevin. I hope to get my tray welded up today and start on the rest of the mount. Yesterday I got my crank back and its ready to install. After seven years on this project this is getting to be an exciting time. For those that care I've attached a photo of the fuselage ready for wheels and the engine. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso IN do not archive > [Original Message] > From: kevinpurtee > To: > Date: 8/12/2010 8:28:18 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount > > > 14 1/4" firewall to rear bolt holes. Long fuselage, no offset. Wing sets back 4". > > -------- > Kevin Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308490#308490 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:14 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finally an honest man I am glad to report that finally, after 5-years of building, I have become an official Pietenpol Air Camper builder. I received my copy of "The Great Waldo Pepper" (TGWP to ya'll) in the mail last night. I am so excited I can't spit. NOW I can appreciate what those folks in Wichita would pay $20 to $25 to see. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS (Not so far from Wichita actually and it only cost me $22 including shipping) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:14 AM PST US From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Public Lumber Sitka intell. Here in Utah I paid $7.00 a board ft from MacBeth Hardwoods our local supplier for Sitka Spruce. They carry rough cut 2x6, 1x6, 1x12 up to 16ft lengths with nice tight vertical grain. The $20 bft that someone mentioned seems a little pricey. Brian SLC-UT From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Public Lumber sitka intell. For those interested, I just called Public Lumber to get the status on their sitka. They are currently out of sitka boards. They have a large shipment coming next week. I asked for a ball park price for 1" X 8" X 10'. I was told to figure about $7.00 a board foot. Now granted this price changes with thickness and width. Anyhoo, for those interested call Craig at 313-891-7125 Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: "coxwelljon" Mine is a GN-1 also and not flying yet. The previous builder set the rear holes at 15" from the face of the firewall. I am working on lightening up the tail so I may have to move the engine back a bit. Mine is hand propped with stock oil cooler and filter. Wynn suggests that minimum for this is 10 1/2" so I have a little to play with but a lot of work to change. Jon Coxwell -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308503#308503 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finally an honest man From: "kevinpurtee" Tom - Shelley & I got it through Netflix and watched it a couple of days ago. Got caught up on all the references. Lots of fun. Axel:) do not archive -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308504#308504 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:48 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount Looking good Rick, nice progress, I guess its been a while since I have seen her! John Do not archive In a message dated 8/12/2010 9:53:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lmforge@earthlink.net writes: Thanks for the info Kevin. I hope to get my tray welded up today and start on the rest of the mount. Yesterday I got my crank back and its ready to install. After seven years on this project this is getting to be an exciting time. For those that care I've attached a photo of the fuselage ready for wheels and the engine. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso IN do not archive > [Original Message] > From: kevinpurtee > To: > Date: 8/12/2010 8:28:18 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount > > > 14 1/4" firewall to rear bolt holes. Long fuselage, no offset. Wing sets back 4". > > -------- > Kevin Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308490#308490 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:15 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... Mike, Thanks, impressive credentials I am humbled. And I do appreciate your follow up and willingness to share. Thanks again and not being argumentative, always nice to know the source of ones information. My own experience has shown a great disparity between reasonable theory and actual performance which is the reason I was looking for hard data. I guess there is none to be had. There is always the issue of too much or too little at both ends of the optimum performance curve which was the nature of my quire. Not weather it was beneficial but how much provides the optimum performance and what or where is the point of diminishing return? Having looked at wings and observed many configurations in flight I noticed that the top side of the wing on many aircraft appear to be clean and free of obstructive control devices, horns and extraneous stuff , while the underside is cluttered with control horns, cables, drop tanks etc. By observation only one could surmise that the top surface should remain the surface that is least obstructed. Or does it really make a difference and that lower surface of the win is used out of convenience rather then optimal performance. That distills down to: If one had a choice to interfere with a wing surface due to adding fitting, controls, horns etc which surface would be better to hang or set junk on. The upper surface normally not obstructed or lower, normally chuck full of junk hanging from it or conversely does it really matter? I will admit I know very little about it and was hoping the collective intelligence could give me an answer on that issue as it relates to the optimization of wing surfaces and induce drag components through interferences. Doe that explain my position better and are you able to provide answers in that light as to the flight characteristics of the Piet and Piet wing? If I am going to build it I want it to have the best performance possible and would like to know how to do that. John In a message dated 8/12/2010 9:27:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, speedbrake@sbcglobal.net writes: Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real world answers, as I seek the same. If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of flying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which makes for a more relaxing long trip. Gap seals just need to fill a gap. Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight. As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial. With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: Rick Holland Are you nose or tail heavy Jon? If the tail needs lightened wouldn't you want to move the engine forward? (I know you can't move the wing back). rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:29 AM, coxwelljon wrote: > coxwelljon@frontiernet.net> > > Mine is a GN-1 also and not flying yet. The previous builder set the rear > holes at 15" from the face of the firewall. I am working on lightening up > the tail so I may have to move the engine back a bit. Mine is hand propped > with stock oil cooler and filter. Wynn suggests that minimum for this is 10 > 1/2" so I have a little to play with but a lot of work to change. > > Jon Coxwell > > -------- > Jon Coxwell > GN-1 Builder > Recycle and preserve the planet > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308503#308503 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: Rick Holland Nice fuel tank Rick, just the way mine is setup (that ash Model-A mount cross-member does come in handy doesn't it?) What is your capacity? rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Richard Schreiber wrote: > Thanks for the info Kevin. > > I hope to get my tray welded up today and start on the rest of the mount. > Yesterday I got my crank back and its ready to install. After seven years > on this project this is getting to be an exciting time. > > For those that care I've attached a photo of the fuselage ready for wheels > and the engine. > > Rick Schreiber > Valparaiso IN > > do not archive > > > [Original Message] > > From: kevinpurtee > > To: > > Date: 8/12/2010 8:28:18 AM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount > > > > > > > 14 1/4" firewall to rear bolt holes. Long fuselage, no offset. Wing > sets back 4". > > > > -------- > > Kevin Purtee > > NX899KP > > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308490#308490 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:17 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: "kevinpurtee" I betcha the capacity of the tank is more than the capacity of his bladder!:) do not archive -------- Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308518#308518 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... From: Ryan Mueller Hi John, I think you are overthinking this. Many of the fittings on a high wing aircraft will be on the bottom of the wing....because the rest of the airplane the wing is connecting to is underneath it. With that being said, I think you would have the biggest, brightest snowflake yet if you can figure out how to attach your wing/cabane struts on the topside of your wing. :) One other thing to consider: anything that bolts, fastens, or is otherwise attached or connected to the wing is something that you may have to inspect, tighten, loosen, remove, or install at some point during the life of the airplane, whether for regular inspection and maintenance, to repair damage, etc. If you put it on the top of the wing on a high wing airplane that just makes it that much more difficult for you to do any of those things. Ryan On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:00 AM, wrote: > Mike, > > Thanks, impressive credentials I am humbled. And I do appreciate your > follow up and willingness to share. > > Thanks again and not being argumentative, always nice to know the source of > ones information. My own experience has shown a great disparity between > reasonable theory and actual performance which is the reason I was looking > for hard data. I guess there is none to be had. > > There is always the issue of too much or too little at both ends of the > optimum performance curve which was the nature of my quire. Not weather it > was beneficial but how much provides the optimum performance and > what or where is the point of diminishing return? > > Having looked at wings and observed many configurations in flight I noticed > that the top side of the wing on many aircraft appear to be clean and free > of obstructive control devices, horns and extraneous stuff , while the > underside is cluttered with control horns, cables, drop tanks etc. By > observation only one could surmise that the top surface should remain the > surface that is least obstructed. Or does it really make a difference and > that lower surface of the win is used out of convenience rather then optimal > performance. That distills down to: If one had a choice to interfere with a > wing surface due to adding fitting, controls, horns etc which surface would > be better to hang or set junk on. The upper surface normally not obstructed > or lower, normally chuck full of junk hanging from it or conversely does it > really matter? > > I will admit I know very little about it and was hoping the collective > intelligence could give me an answer on that issue as it relates to the > optimization of wing surfaces and induce drag components through > interferences. > > > Doe that explain my position better and are you able to provide answers in > that light as to the flight characteristics of the Piet and Piet wing? If I > am going to build it I want it to have the best performance possible and > would like to know how to do that. > > John > > > In a message dated 8/12/2010 9:27:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > speedbrake@sbcglobal.net writes: > > Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real > world answers, as I seek the same. > > If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral > will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of > flying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which > makes for a more relaxing long trip. > > Gap seals just need to fill a gap. > > Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel > hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as > drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds > weight. > > As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are > beneficial. > > With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some > light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. > > For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 > years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at > our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > > * > > =================================== > t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ====================================ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: If I knew then what I know now.... From: "coxwelljon" [quote="Amsafetyc"]I did, except I used the 1/2 staples, worked great. I epoxied over them to keep them in place rather than try pulling the out of the indention and making a big mess out of my wood. I figured seal them in air tight so no chance of rust and done. Not exactly the same as building ribs, but I built a wood strip canoe where the planking was stapled to the frames and then the staples removed to lift the shell off the frames. I used a hand insulation stapler with staples long enough to penetrate the 1/4" planking plus some penetration in to the frames. I taped a thin cardboard shim just behind where the staple exits the stapler so the staple was not set tight to the wood and could be easily removed with a thin screwdriver or similar. If you are using epoxy glue you don't need a lot of pressure, only something to keep the pieces you are gluing from moving out of place in relation to each other. -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308520#308520 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue From: Ryan Mueller Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-winged-no-dihedral Piet from Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the air when I flew it. I think the general consensus I would draw from what I have heard from other Piet flyers is that dihedral on a Pietenpol does not that much effect, and that it is more important to have a properly rigged airplane if you want it to be stable and fly well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" optical illusion go right ahead, but the airplane doesn't need it to fly well. >For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P. I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from before. Are you a mechanical engineering technician, or a mechanical engineer? Also, flying various AC at NASA.....flying, or flying in? I thought you didn't have your pilot's license yet? Forgive me for being absentminded on this.... Have a good day, Ryan On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real > world answers, as I seek the same. > > If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral > will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of > flying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which > makes for a more relaxing long trip. > > Gap seals just need to fill a gap. > > Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel > hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as > drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds > weight. > > As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are > beneficial. > > With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some > light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. > > For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 > years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at > our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:26 AM PST US From: Brad Larson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount Where I fly you need to have enough capacity to get out... and back without refuelling. I might fly out 1-2 hours (spend some time on the ground) and then fly back (usually fighting a stiff wind at least one of the directions). In North Dakota... "If you don't fly in wind, you don't fly." Brad. kevinpurtee wrote: > > I betcha the capacity of the tank is more than the capacity of his bladder!:) > > do not archive > > -------- > Kevin Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308518#308518 > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: "coxwelljon" I know what you mean. I used to fly in eastern Montana. Had one unhappy incident with not enough fuel while returning to Billings, MT Jon Coxwell blarson(at)meridianhouse. wrote: > Where I fly you need to have enough capacity to get out... and back > without refuelling. I might fly out 1-2 hours (spend some time on the > ground) and then fly back (usually fighting a stiff wind at least one of > the directions). > > In North Dakota... "If you don't fly in wind, you don't fly." > > Brad. > > kevinpurtee wrote: > > > > > > > I betcha the capacity of the tank is more than the capacity of his bladder!:) > > > > do not archive > > > > -------- > > Kevin Purtee > > NX899KP > > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308518#308518 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308525#308525 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:51 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... " If am =0Agoing to build it I want it to have the best performance possibl e and would like =0Ato know how to do that." You sir, hit the nail right on the head as far as I am concerned! I am in t he same boat. (plane, I guess...) "Not weather it =0Awas beneficial but how much provides the optimum perform ance and =0Awhat-or-where is the point of diminishing return?" This I can't answer as we know my plane is not finished. Only those with fl ight time can be of assistance here. (That was your original intent with as king in the first place. I get that now!) "My own experience has shown a great disparity between =0Areasonable theory and actual performance which is the reason I was looking for =0Ahard data. " Again, can't agree with you more!- I may very well find out that with all my "improvements" that my plane will blow. Period. It all may look good on paper, look good on the plane, be light weight and all that...but fly like a rock, or not at all! "There is always the issue of too much or too little at both ends of- =0A the optimum performance curve which was the nature of my quire. " Understood. Your dirty wing question...The top of the wing should be as clean as you ca n keep it. For the best lift on any given air foil you need laminar flow... that is that the air flows on top of the wing surface cleanly, unobstructed and attached. Air flow that disengages from the surface is now turbulence and drag. (drag has no lift) The bottom of our wing does not provide lift.- The concave shape provides a means for allowing the air flow to stay attached some, but there are bet ter designed wing bottoms for sure. A curved surface of some sort will be b etter then a purely flat surface for laminar flow. Flat surfaces, (no curve of any type) will have a hard time, if at all, keeping the airflow attache d to it.- This is a long winded answer to say this: Ideally, you would wa nt your wings as clean as you can get them, top and bottom. But, if you nee d something "hanging in the breeze" put it underneath. If by the design of the plane, you have no choice, then, you have no choice. The tops of our Pi etenpols with no wing mounted fuel tank is very clean, minus the two contro l horns for the ailerons.- By the way, the shape of the control horns are not only for strength...that air foil/curved shape cuts down on turbulence . (A wing flying vertically, if you will.) Apart from wings, I am sure you have noticed all those fittings hanging out from the fuselage for landing gear and wing struts, the fittings hanging o ut of the bottom of the wing for the wing struts, etc.- Some type of fair ing would make those locations more aerodynamic. Would it make a difference ? Not sure, but I am willing to try it and see. Another consideration....Tr y to keep as many of those turnbuckles inside the fuselage as you can. No n eed to have them out at the control horns on the control surfaces creating drag!- Those large thimbles and nicropress fittings are draggy as well, b ut I fully understand that swage-on fittings are just too much $$. OK, now I am getting too chatty, but I hope to have helped a little with so me back ground intell. and some other things to ponder. You seem to be tryi ng to do what I am as far as performance, so maybe we can help each other. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:32 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... Doe that explain my position better and are you able to provide answers in that light as to the flight characteristics of the Piet and Piet wing? If I am going to build it I want it to have the best performance possible and would like to know how to do that. John Not to muddy up the waters any more...but....you mention "flight characteristics of the Piet and Piet wing"....is this a Piet wing? Are ALL specs from "THE" Piet wing being built or have aileron/chord/airfoil changes been made? Many of our "Piet wings" aren't, actually. Changing wing characteristics/design parameters can easily invalidate some of our experiences. If ANY of the above types of changes are, made I would strongly recommend getting more than "how does this work for everyone else?" answers because it's no longer "like everyone else's"...like maybe having "your" design looked at by an engineer. I would think that things like dihedral will have different impacts on different effective designs. Again, just thoughts for IF you've made any changes to the design/layout/dimensions/etc. jm ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:11 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Ryan, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician...NOT a mechanical Engineer. I do a lot of design work of my own, but those designs then get tested and approved prior to use or implementation. (I love machining, by the way.) - I do my own calculations as well, but basic stuff, the more in depth st uff is left to the pros.- I do not have a pilots license of any type. I have flow in, (and around...z ero G ) all of our AC at that time. I have actually flown, from the rear se at, (OV-10 Broncos) or right seat, (Twin Otter, Lear-25, etc.)- I did the most of my actual flying in the OV-10s doing aerobatics and hard G pulls a s part of our research. (Lot's of cross sticking, rudder, cool stuff!) Thos e planes were great because ours were still in the green cammo. that we got them in, had twin engines, twin tail, twin turbo props and ejection seats. (What's not to like?)- I was actually run qualified and taxi qualified o n all of our Broncos.The times that I was not actually at the controls in t he other AC, I was mechanical tech running the experiments, test subject, o r just along for the ride. Sorry, sounds like I am bragging, but it has been a long time and to re-liv e those thoughts gets me wound up. Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spark plug wires From: Rick Holland Yes Gardiner, you assemble the distributor size boots yourself so you can insert one end of each wire through before assembling. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-5041K/ I have my fuselage finished, just need to cover and paint the wings so probably fly next Spring. good luck rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 6:00 AM, airlion wrote: > Rick, I do not have the accel wires. Only the ones that William sent me. If > I order them will I be able to slip them thru the plastic plate that > attaches to the baffling? Gardiner. PS How close are you to flying? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Holland > > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wed, August 11, 2010 10:26:43 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: spark plug wires > > Are you using the WW recommended wires Gardiner? (Accel 5041 from Summit > Racing). Mine are so hard to remove that I bust knuckles every time I have > to pull one off, can't imagine one coming off by itself. > > Glad your Piet is performing so well, I wish my only problem now was a > loose spark plug wire. > > rick > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:57 PM, airlion wrote: > >> >> Hey listers, for you corvair engine guys, I am having trouble keeping the >> plug >> wires connected. It seems that they are vibrating off or being blown off. >> Anybody have a suggestion on how to secure them better.? I have 30 hours >> on the >> plane now and the engine is running great. the temps are good and the trim >> is >> fantastic. hands off and turns only with the rudder. After every flight I >> have >> to open the cowl to make sure the plug wires are connected. This morning >> one was >> loose. Cheers, Gardiner >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... From: "coxwelljon" Another consideration....Try to keep as many of those turnbuckles inside the fuselage as you can. No need to have them out at the control horns on the control surfaces creating drag! Those large thimbles and nicropress fittings are draggy as well, but I fully understand that swage-on fittings are just too much $$. I agree with the location of turnbuckles especially on the tail. Putting them on the other end of the cable moves the weight closer to the CG and gets them inside where the produce less drag. As for the nicropress fittings, there was a good article in one of the EAA publications last fall about hand wrapping cable connections and soldering them. The author tested them to destruction and found the connection stronger than the cable. They were much prettier and streamlined than the nicropress connection and much less expensive than the swage on fittings. Jon Coxwell -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308534#308534 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:52 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... never changed the wing design or structure all according to the plans In a message dated 8/12/2010 12:36:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jim_markle@mindspring.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle Doe that explain my position better and are you able to provide answers in that light as to the flight characteristics of the Piet and Piet wing? If I am going to build it I want it to have the best performance possible and would like to know how to do that. John Not to muddy up the waters any more...but....you mention "flight characteristics of the Piet and Piet wing"....is this a Piet wing? Are ALL specs from "THE" Piet wing being built or have aileron/chord/airfoil changes been made? Many of our "Piet wings" aren't, actually. Changing wing characteristics/design parameters can easily invalidate some of our experiences. If ANY of the above types of changes are, made I would strongly recommend getting more than "how does this work for everyone else?" answers because it's no longer "like everyone else's"...like maybe having "your" design looked at by an engineer. I would think that things like dihedral will have different impacts on different effective designs. Again, just thoughts for IF you've made any changes to the design/layout/dimensions/etc. jm ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:38 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... Good intell. on the- cable fittings Jon.- I'll have to check out that a ssembly process. Really good point on the CG with the turn buckles...anothe r good reason to move them! (Nice to see you recycle, sir!) Michael Perez =0AKaretaker Aero =0Awww.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finally an honest man From: "K5YAC" Now, that's a start... the real trick is to watch it dozens of times to ensure you have it all memorized. That way, you are ready to pull out a "nice to meet you Mr. Brown" or "fourflusher" comment on a moments notice. It really is the only language most of these guys recognize. If you ever hear something said, or read something written that really doesn't make any sense, just assume that it is from TGWP. Most of the time you will be right. -------- Mark Chouinard Finishing up Wings - Working on Center Section Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308540#308540 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:29 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finally an honest man keep it comin Scooter Do not archive In a message dated 8/12/2010 1:34:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hangar10@cox.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "K5YAC" Now, that's a start... the real trick is to watch it dozens of times to ensure you have it all memorized. That way, you are ready to pull out a "nice to meet you Mr. Brown" or "fourflusher" comment on a moments notice. It really is the only language most of these guys recognize. If you ever hear something said, or read something written that really doesn't make any sense, just assume that it is from TGWP. Most of the time you will be right. -------- Mark Chouinard Finishing up Wings - Working on Center Section Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308540#308540 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Public Lumber sitka intell. From: "j_dunavin" The $20 a board ft. was from a local shop here... and yes it would seem that is very expensive. Needless to say, i am not going with them. Good info on the public lumber place!! As a side note, it turns out that my dad knows two others who are also just in the "plans" stage and have not yet bought any wood. I am going to try and get all of us together, and buy all of our wood at once.... maybe get a bulk discount. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308543#308543 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Public Lumber sitka intell. From: "j_dunavin" oh I just thought about this..... Public is selling for around $7 a board ft. and is located in MI McCormick is selling for $9.50 and is located in Madison WI. Since i am located in Northern IL I suppose that McCormik's would be better since I would not have to pay for shipping, and i could inspect the wood as I bought it. McCormik did say no on the group buy though :( Maybe they would change their mind, if we showed up with three pick up trucks 8) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308546#308546 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:53 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue My Piet has a slight amount of dihedral - about 1" per side, to prevent the droopy wing look you are supposed to get with a straight wing (I can't say I've ever thought they looked droopy). As Ryan said, I flew his straight (one piece) winged Pietenpol for about 500 miles and found it to be as stable as mine (not that this is saying much). In general, Piet's aren't noted for flying hands off in any but the smoothest air. I suspect the amount of dihedral necessary to achieve true stability would make the plane look like a giant scale free-flight model. Quit worrying about trying to make it stable - that's what the stick is for. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-winged-no-dihedral Piet from Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the air when I flew it. I think the general consensus I would draw from what I have heard from other Piet flyers is that dihedral on a Pietenpol does not that much effect, and that it is more important to have a properly rigged airplane if you want it to be stable and fly well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" optical illusion go right ahead, but the airplane doesn't need it to fly well. >For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P. I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from before. Are you a mechanical engineering technician, or a mechanical engineer? Also, flying various AC at NASA.....flying, or flying in? I thought you didn't have your pilot's license yet? Forgive me for being absentminded on this.... Have a good day, Ryan On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez wrote: Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real world answers, as I seek the same. If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of flying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which makes for a more relaxing long trip. Gap seals just need to fill a gap. Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight. As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial. With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:11 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Mine is about the same as Jack's. It will fly for a short period hands off. It is important to have some adjustment in your lift struts to get the trim set correctly, and that took one adjustment after the plane was flying. Don't spend too much time trying to improve a proven design! Ben On 8/12/2010 2:41 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: > > My Piet has a slight amount of dihedral -- about 1" per side, to > prevent the droopy wing look you are supposed to get with a straight > wing (I can't say I've ever thought they looked droopy). As Ryan > said, I flew his straight (one piece) winged Pietenpol for about 500 > miles and found it to be as stable as mine (not that this is saying > much). In general, Piet's aren't noted for flying hands off in any > but the smoothest air. I suspect the amount of dihedral necessary to > achieve true stability would make the plane look like a giant scale > free-flight model. > > Quit worrying about trying to make it stable -- that's what the stick > is for. > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Raleigh, NC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ryan > Mueller > *Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:48 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors > and fellow lovers of the blue > > Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-winged-no-dihedral > Piet from Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the > air when I flew it. I think the general consensus I would draw from > what I have heard from other Piet flyers is that dihedral on a > Pietenpol does not that much effect, and that it is more important to > have a properly rigged airplane if you want it to be stable and fly > well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" > optical illusion go right ahead, but the airplane doesn't need it to > fly well. > > >For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 > years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 > years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. > I am an A&P. > > I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from > before. Are you a mechanical engineering technician, or a mechanical > engineer? Also, flying various AC at NASA.....flying, or flying in? I > thought you didn't have your pilot's license yet? Forgive me for being > absentminded on this.... > > Have a good day, > > Ryan > > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez > > wrote: > > Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want > real world answers, as I seek the same. > > If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, > dihedral will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a > better chance of flying straight and level with little to no input > from the pilot, which makes for a more relaxing long trip. > > Gap seals just need to fill a gap. > > Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel > hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with > the as drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal > just adds weight. > > As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are > beneficial. > > With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed > some light on your questions from ways that others may not have > considered. > > For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 > years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 > years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. > I am an A&P. > > Michael Perez > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:57 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers... Thanks Jack, purely aesthetics no real benefit so minimal is good to avoid the wet noodle or sad sack look but nothing more, I'll work to that end. Thanks John Been waiting fir ya to chime in, thanks for the confirmation In a message dated 8/12/2010 2:43:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pietflyr@bellsouth.net writes: My Piet has a slight amount of dihedral =93 about 1=9D per si de, to prevent the droopy wing look you are supposed to get with a straight wing (I can =99t say I=99ve ever thought they looked droopy). As Ryan said, I flew his straight (one piece) winged Pietenpol for about 500 miles and found it to be as stable as mine (not that this is saying much). In general, Piet=99 s aren=99t noted for flying hands off in any but the smoothest air. I suspect the amount of dihedral necessary to achieve true stability would make the pla ne look like a giant scale free-flight model. Quit worrying about trying to make it stable =93 that=99s wha t the stick is for. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ____________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Muell er Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-winged-no-dihedral Piet from Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the ai r when I flew it. I think the general consensus I would draw from what I ha ve heard from other Piet flyers is that dihedral on a Pietenpol does not tha t much effect, and that it is more important to have a properly rigged airp lane if you want it to be stable and fly well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" optical illusion go right ahead, but the airpl ane doesn't need it to fly well. >For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A& P. I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from before. Are you a mechanical engineering technician, or a mechanical engi neer? Also, flying various AC at NASA.....flying, or flying in? I thought you didn't have your pilot's license yet? Forgive me for being absentminded on this.... Have a good day, Ryan On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez <_speedbrake@sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:speedbrake@sbcglobal.net) > wrote: Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real world answers, as I seek the same. If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of flying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which makes for a more relaxing long trip. Gap seals just need to fill a gap. Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight .. As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial. With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed som e light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P .. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero _www.karetakeraero.com_ (http://www.karetakeraero.com/) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:22 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lover... just looking for the best without too much experimentation, more willing to learn from the experience of others. Unless they be a forflusher then all bets are off, "it shoulda been me" Thanks John In a message dated 8/12/2010 2:56:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bencharvet@gmail.com writes: Mine is about the same as Jack's. It will fly for a short period hands off. It is important to have some adjustment in your lift struts to get the trim set correctly, and that took one adjustment after the plane was flying. Don't spend too much time trying to improve a proven design! Ben On 8/12/2010 2:41 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: My Piet has a slight amount of dihedral =93 about 1=9D per si de, to prevent the droopy wing look you are supposed to get with a straight wing (I can =99t say I=99ve ever thought they looked droopy). As Ryan said, I flew his straight (one piece) winged Pietenpol for about 500 miles and found it to be as stable as mine (not that this is saying much). In general, Piet=99 s aren=99t noted for flying hands off in any but the smoothest air. I suspect the amount of dihedral necessary to achieve true stability would make the plan e look like a giant scale free-flight model. Quit worrying about trying to make it stable =93 that=99s wha t the stick is for. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ____________________________________ From: _owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com) [mailto:_owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-pietenpo l-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-winged-no-dihedral Piet from Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the ai r when I flew it. I think the general consensus I would draw from what I ha ve heard from other Piet flyers is that dihedral on a Pietenpol does not tha t much effect, and that it is more important to have a properly rigged airp lane if you want it to be stable and fly well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" optical illusion go right ahead, but the airpl ane doesn't need it to fly well. >For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A& P. I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from before. Are you a mechanical engineering technician, or a mechanical engi neer? Also, flying various AC at NASA.....flying, or flying in? I thought you didn't have your pilot's license yet? Forgive me for being absentminded on this.... Have a good day, Ryan On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez <_speedbrake@sbcglobal.net _ (mailto:speedbrake@sbcglobal.net) > wrote: Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real world answers, as I seek the same. If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For instance, dihedral will render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a better chance of flying straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which makes for a more relaxing long trip. Gap seals just need to fill a gap. Short section of piano hinge will be lighter then the as drawn steel hinges. Then you gap seal between them. You'll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight .. As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial. With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed som e light on your questions from ways that others may not have considered. For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. I worked 6 years at our NASA hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. I am an A&P .. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero _www.karetakeraero.com_ (http://www.karetakeraero.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.ma tro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:57 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers of the blue Put in some anhedral for that fighter plane effect.Common guys wer'e out th ere =0Alookin for the Red Baron not going for a pleasure flights!!!!We have to take the =0AHun out the air!Ya don't want to be fallin asleep at the st ick!Prime those guns!=0A=0Ado not archive=C2-=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: Ben Charvet =0ATo: pieten pol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, August 12, 2010 2:55:50 PM=0ASubject: R e: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow =0Alov ers of the blue=0A=0AMine is about the same as Jack's.=C2- It will fly fo r a short period hands off.=C2- It =0Ais important to have some adjustmen t in your lift struts to get the trim set =0Acorrectly, and that took one a djustment after the plane was flying.=C2- Don't spend =0Atoo much time tr ying to improve a proven design!=0A=0ABen=0AOn 8/12/2010 2:41 PM, Jack Phil lips wrote: =0AMy Piet has a slight amount of dihedral =93 about 1 =9D per side, to prevent the =0Adroopy wing look you are supposed to get with a straight wing (I can=99t say I=99ve =0Aever thought the y looked droopy).=C2- As Ryan said, I flew his straight (one piece) =0Awi nged Pietenpol for about 500 miles and found it to be as stable as mine (no t =0Athat this is saying much).=C2- In general, Piet=99s aren =99t noted for flying hands off =0Ain any but the smoothest air.=C2- I su spect the amount of dihedral necessary to =0Aachieve true stability would m ake the plane look like a giant scale free-flight =0Amodel.=0A>=C2-=0A>Qu it worrying about trying to make it stable =93 that=99s what th e stick is for.=0A>=C2-=0A>Jack Phillips=0A>NX899JP=0A>Raleigh, NC=0A>=C2 -=0A>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:owner-pietenpol-list- server@matronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller=0A>Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:48 AM=0A> builders, engineers,advisors and fellow =0A>lovers of the blue=0A>=C2-=0A >Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-winged-no-dihedral Pie t from =0A>Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the air when I flew it. =0A>I think the general consensus I would draw from what I have heard from other =0A>Piet flyers is that dihedral on a Pietenpol does not that much effect, and that =0A>it is more important to have a properly rigged airplane if you want it to be =0A>stable and fly well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" =0A>optical illusion go right ahead, but the airplane doesn't need it to fly well.=0A>=C2-=0A>>For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) =0A>> Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. =C2-I worked 6 years at o ur NASA =0A>>hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. =C2-I am an A&P.=0A>I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from before. Are =0A>you a=C2-mechanical engineering technician, or=C2 -a mechanical engineer? Also, flying =0A>various AC at NASA.....flying, o r flying in? I thought you didn't have your =0A>pilot's license yet? Forgiv e me for being absentminded on this....=0A>=C2-=0A>Have a good day,=0A> =C2-=0A>Ryan=0A>=C2-=0A>On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez =0Awrote:=0A>Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real world =0A>answers, as I seek the same. =0A>=0A>=0A>If I may however, some of my statements are factual. For insta nce, dihedral will =0A>render high wing AC more stable. A stable AC has a b etter chance of flying =0A>straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which makes for a =0A>more relaxing long trip.=0A>=0A>Gap seals just need to fill a gap. =0A>=0A>Short section of piano hinge will be light er then the as drawn steel hinges. =0A>Then you gap seal between them. You' ll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges =0A>anyway. To use full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight.=0A>=0A>As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial.=0A>=0A>With respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some light =0A>on your questions from ways that others may not have considered.=0A>=0A>For the rec ord, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 years) =0A>Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician.=C2- I worked 6 years at our NA SA =0A>hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC.=C2- I am an A& P.=0A>Michael Perez=0A>Karetaker Aero=0A>www.karetakeraero.com =0A> =C2- =0A> =C2-=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A>http:// forums.matronics.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A> =C2-=0A > =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://w ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A> href="http://forums.matron ics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/ ============ =0A ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:38 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount Hi Brad, Having learned how to fly and flying many years in NE South Dakota (Waterto wn, ATY)=C2-that is what we always told people; "if you don't fly in the wind you don't fly". Jim do not archive In North Dakota... "If you don't fly in wind, you don't fly." Brad. kevinpurtee wrote: .mil> > > I betcha the capacity of the tank is more than the capacity of his bladde r!:) > > do not archive > > -------- > Kevin Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308518#308518 > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2- =========== =========== MS - =========== e - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:48 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers... Ya,I guess ya don't don't want to have that F22 Raptor look eh.;-)=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "AMsafetyC@ aol.com" =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu , August 12, 2010 3:04:32 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dear sage build ers, engineers,advisors and fellow =0Alovers...=0A=0AThanks Jack, purely ae sthetics no real benefit so minimal is good to avoid the =0Awet noodle or s ad sack look but nothing more, I'll work to that end. =0A=0A=0AThanks=0A=0A John=0A=0ABeen waiting fir ya to chime in, thanks for the confirmation=0A =0AIn a message dated 8/12/2010 2:43:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =0Apiet flyr@bellsouth.net writes:=0AMy Piet has a slight amount of dihedral =93 about 1=9D per side, to prevent the =0Adroopy wing look you are s upposed to get with a straight wing (I can=99t say I=99ve =0Aev er thought they looked droopy).=C2- As Ryan said, I flew his straight (on e piece) =0Awinged Pietenpol for about 500 miles and found it to be as stab le as mine (not =0Athat this is saying much).=C2- In general, Piet =99s aren=99t noted for flying hands off =0Ain any but the smoothest air.=C2- I suspect the amount of dihedral necessary to =0Aachieve true st ability would make the plane look like a giant scale free-flight =0Amodel. =0A>=C2-=0A>Quit worrying about trying to make it stable =93 that =99s what the stick is for.=0A>=C2-=0A>Jack Phillips=0A>NX899JP=0A> Raleigh, NC=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:own er-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: =0A>owner-pietenpol-list-se rver@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller=0A>Sent: Thursday, August 12 , 2010 11:48 AM=0A>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Pietenp ol-List: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow =0A>lovers of th e blue=0A>=C2-=0A>Jack can chime in on this, as he flew our one-piece-win ged-no-dihedral Piet from =0A>Tennessee to Brodhead, but ours doesn't feel unstable in the air when I flew it. =0A>I think the general consensus I wou ld draw from what I have heard from other =0A>Piet flyers is that dihedral on a Pietenpol does not that much effect, and that =0A>it is more important to have a properly rigged airplane if you want it to be =0A>stable and fly well. If you want to add dihedral to avoid the "droopy wingtip" =0A>optica l illusion go right ahead, but the airplane doesn't need it to fly well.=0A >=C2-=0A>>For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NAS A. (18 years) =0A>>Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician. =C2-I worked 6 years at our NASA =0A>>hangar working on, modifying and flying var ious AC. =C2-I am an A&P.=0A>I'm just asking out of confusion, as I think I missed something from before. Are =0A>you a=C2-mechanical engineering technician, or=C2-a mechanical engineer? Also, flying =0A>various AC at N ASA.....flying, or flying in? I thought you didn't have your =0A>pilot's li cense yet? Forgive me for being absentminded on this....=0A>=C2-=0A>Have a good day,=0A>=C2-=0A>Ryan=0A>=C2-=0A>On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Michael Perez =0Awrote:=0A>Agreed, my plane is not complete. I fully understand that you want real world =0A>answers, as I seek the same. =0A>=0A>=0A>If I may however, some of my statements are fac tual. For instance, dihedral will =0A>render high wing AC more stable. A st able AC has a better chance of flying =0A>straight and level with little to no input from the pilot, which makes for a =0A>more relaxing long trip.=0A >=0A>Gap seals just need to fill a gap. =0A>=0A>Short section of piano hing e will be lighter then the as drawn steel hinges. =0A>Then you gap seal bet ween them. You'll need a gap seal with the as drawn hinges =0A>anyway. To u se full length piano for the gap seal just adds weight.=0A>=0A>As stated by someone else, gap seals on all control surfaces are beneficial.=0A>=0A>Wit h respect, I am not trying to argue, I was, in fact trying to shed some lig ht =0A>on your questions from ways that others may not have considered.=0A> =0A>For the record, I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA. (18 y ears) =0A>Plus 4 years US Navy as an Avionics Technician.=C2- I worked 6 years at our NASA =0A>hangar working on, modifying and flying various AC. =C2- I am an A&P.=0A>Michael Perez=0A>Karetaker Aero=0A>www.karetakeraero .com =0A> =C2-=0A> =C2-=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol -List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/contributi on=0A> =C2-=0A> ================== ================== t =0A>href="http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Pietenpol-List=0A> ================= =================== =0A>ms.matronics. com/">http://forums.matronics.com =0A>============ ======================== =0A>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion =0A>====================== ======= =0A ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... From: "BYD" > Try to keep as many of those turnbuckles inside the fuselage as you can. No need to have them out at the control horns on the control surfaces creating drag! DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308561#308561 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/turnbuckle_fairing_111.jpg ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:11 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... Please keep that invention under wraps until April 1st. do not archive--- shhhhh! -----Original Message----- >From: BYD >Sent: Aug 12, 2010 2:51 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... > > > >> Try to keep as many of those turnbuckles inside the fuselage as you can. No need to have them out at the control horns on the control surfaces creating drag! > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308561#308561 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/turnbuckle_fairing_111.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:49 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank Rick, The tank holds exactly 19 gallons. I made a cardboard mockup to check fit and clearance. There is plenty of room for the front passenger and the rudder pedals. The slope on the tank is great enough that the sump won't unport in a high climb angle. During construction I put in two fore/aft baffles. Attached is a side view drawing of the tank showing the relation to the fuselage floor, the firewall and the top longeron. Rick Schreiber VPZ N5936D ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:01 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: cooling "eyebrow" sizing Is there a formula for figuring out the size of the cooling eyebrows? I've seen some that look pretty small and tight and some that look a bit like dragonfly wings. Is there a minimum opening size? Douwe ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: "VanDy" Just measured mine "Grandpa's" its 10.5' from firewall to the rear bolt, the Fuselage is 14'6" long, not sure if thats the long or short fuse... and the wing is back 6" from straight up. Grandpa said its a little nose heavy, but the great thing about the wing that far back is when it rains the drops from the wing miss the cockpit :) Once i get it recovered i'll be doing another weight and balance to set it up best for me, at 200lbs, as a point of reference when gpa built the Piet in '76 he was 6'6" and 275 pounds. -------- www.vansavition.com follow my Piet rebuild there! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308580#308580 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount From: "coxwelljon" Are you nose or tail heavy Jon? If the tail needs lightened wouldn't you want to move the engine forward? (I know you can't move the wing back). Rick, You are absolutely right. Thanks for pointing that out. I really do not know if I am nose or tail heavy. The previous builder had the plane assembled with the engine prior to doing any covering. In fact he used the plane as a test bed to run in the engine. Unfortunately he did not have any data on weight taken at that time. My reading tells me that many Piets are tail heavy and GN-1's even more so due to the heavier fuselage structure behind the cockpit. Previous builders of my project did not cut corners with weight. Bolt sizes are generally one size larger, some wood members oversized, 1" unrouted, unsanded spars, landing gear cross members are heavier than plans, etc. With all of this I am eliminating as much weight as possible where I can without starting new and paying special attention to the areas behind the cockpit as they have a long lever arm. I am thinking that I need to take some time before winter and assemble everything just for a temporary W&B. In my case since I plan to use the engine location as my balancer. Jon Coxwell -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308585#308585 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:56 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount That's an exciting step, Rick! Looking good... Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:49 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount Thanks for the info Kevin. I hope to get my tray welded up today and start on the rest of the mount. Yesterday I got my crank back and its ready to install. After seven years on this project this is getting to be an exciting time. For those that care I've attached a photo of the fuselage ready for wheels and the engine. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso IN do not archive > [Original Message] > From: kevinpurtee > To: > Date: 8/12/2010 8:28:18 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair motor mount > > > 14 1/4" firewall to rear bolt holes. Long fuselage, no offset. Wing sets back 4". > > -------- > Kevin Purtee > NX899KP > Austin/Georgetown, TX > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308490#308490 > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:45 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... ... or, you could do that... Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com --- On Thu, 8/12/10, BYD wrote: From: BYD Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fel low lovers ... > Try to keep as many of those turnbuckles inside the fuselage as you can. No need to have them out at the control horns on the control surfaces creat ing drag! DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308561#308561 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/turnbuckle_fairing_111.jpg le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: cooling "eyebrow" sizing From: "coxwelljon" Depends on your engine. William Wynn suggests that for the corvair 3.5" x 9" is a little too big. In his manual he says this is what he has on his Piet but would make them 25% smaller if doing it again as it runs a little too cool. If you are using a C65 then I would look at a J-3 or an old Aeronca and copy what they used. These planes would be about the same speed as the Piet and would have similar cooling. Jon Coxwell -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308590#308590 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:48 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Got an engine! From: "Kringle" Purchased a corvair engine tonight and hauled it home. It came with a few extra parts he wanted to get rid of. I'll start tearing it apart tomorrow. -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308592#308592 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:27 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brenham on Saturday - Hans >Barring anything unusual I'd like to join you, Hans >You available Oscar? Tom? Tim? My airplane is over at Bulverde (1T8) getting its condition inspection at the moment. I don't expect to see a long list of squawks from it, but I do know that I have one cooling eyebrow mounting tab that is cracked through and I'll need to replace it. Not sure what else besides the usual lube/inspect/adjust type stuff. Brenham is about 2 hrs. flying time from Bulverde, so it's not impossible... just unlikely. Brenham is home of the world-famous Blue Bell ice cream, too. Oh, and my cousin Jenny and her family live there ;o) do not archive Evan F. Yawanna Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Got an engine! From: "VanDy" congrats! looks like a good start! Mine is all out in the open now if you want to come by and take a look, the Hobb's meter says it has about 400 hours on mine, I mean Gpa's :) ) And i might know where a few spare parts are laying if you need anything let me know, and i'll go see what i can scrounge up -------- www.vansavition.com follow my Piet rebuild there! almost dissasembled, getting ready to order all AN hardware and SS cable Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308594#308594 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:10 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Got an engine! ...and the fun begins! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 20 ribs done Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kringle Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Got an engine! Purchased a corvair engine tonight and hauled it home. It came with a few extra parts he wanted to get rid of. I'll start tearing it apart tomorrow. -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308592#308592 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_198.jpg ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Got an engine! From: Rick Holland Ugly as hell and yet beautiful at the same time (especially if you have been looking for a while). Nice work. rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Kringle wrote: > > Purchased a corvair engine tonight and hauled it home. It came with a few > extra parts he wanted to get rid of. I'll start tearing it apart tomorrow. > > -------- > John > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308592#308592 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_198.jpg > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fuel tank From: Rick Holland Wow, 19 gal. I thought mine was big at 17 gal. Nice bit of welding. rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Richard Schreiber wrote: > Rick, > > The tank holds exactly 19 gallons. I made a cardboard mockup to check fit > and clearance. There is plenty of room for the front passenger and the > rudder pedals. The slope on the tank is great enough that the sump won't > unport in a high climb angle. During construction I put in two fore/aft > baffles. > > Attached is a side view drawing of the tank showing the relation to the > fuselage floor, the firewall and the top longeron. > > Rick Schreiber > VPZ N5936D > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dear sage builders, engineers,advisors and fellow lovers ... From: Rick Holland If your turnbuckles are inside the fuse remember to add access covers of some kind to allow safety wiring after final assembly. rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:56 AM, coxwelljon wrote: > coxwelljon@frontiernet.net> > > Another consideration....Try to keep as many of those turnbuckles inside > the fuselage as you can. No need to have them out at the control horns on > the control surfaces creating drag! Those large thimbles and nicropress > fittings are draggy as well, but I fully understand that swage-on fittings > are just too much $$. > > I agree with the location of turnbuckles especially on the tail. Putting > them on the other end of the cable moves the weight closer to the CG and > gets them inside where the produce less drag. As for the nicropress > fittings, there was a good article in one of the EAA publications last fall > about hand wrapping cable connections and soldering them. The author tested > them to destruction and found the connection stronger than the cable. They > were much prettier and streamlined than the nicropress connection and much > less expensive than the swage on fittings. > > Jon Coxwell > > -------- > Jon Coxwell > GN-1 Builder > Recycle and preserve the planet > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308534#308534 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Got an engine! From: Ryan Mueller Ah, nice and crusty. One of the first things I would suggest you start doing is soaking the upper head nuts with penetrating oil. Wet them down, take a few other pieces off the engine, wet them down again, and repeat that process over and over. Your goal is to get those nuts off without having the studs turn. When it comes time to remove those nuts, I've found that clamping a pair of vise grips tightly at the base of the stud (all the way down by the crankcase) and using that to try to hold the stud as you turn the nut off can help. You wouldn't think that you would be able to get enough of a grip for that to work, but it actually does help. We used that method on the last core we tore down, and it helped immensely. Good luck, and have fun. Ryan On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Kringle wrote: > > Purchased a corvair engine tonight and hauled it home. It came with a few > extra parts he wanted to get rid of. I'll start tearing it apart tomorrow. > > -------- > John > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308592#308592 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_198.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Got an engine! From: Rick Holland WW recommends Kroil for loosening those rusty nuts. I let mine soak for many days before trying to loosen them. rick On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > Ah, nice and crusty. One of the first things I would suggest you start > doing is soaking the upper head nuts with penetrating oil. Wet them down, > take a few other pieces off the engine, wet them down again, and repeat that > process over and over. Your goal is to get those nuts off without having the > studs turn. When it comes time to remove those nuts, I've found that > clamping a pair of vise grips tightly at the base of the stud (all the way > down by the crankcase) and using that to try to hold the stud as you turn > the nut off can help. You wouldn't think that you would be able to get > enough of a grip for that to work, but it actually does help. We used that > method on the last core we tore down, and it helped immensely. > > Good luck, and have fun. > > Ryan > > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Kringle wrote: > >> >> Purchased a corvair engine tonight and hauled it home. It came with a few >> extra parts he wanted to get rid of. I'll start tearing it apart tomorrow. >> >> -------- >> John >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308592#308592 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/corvair_198.jpg >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:07 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: lee bottoms fly-in sept Is anyone planning on going to the Lee Bottoms "Wood Fabric and Tailwheels" fly-in, on sept 25th?- If our baby is born before then and we are all se ttled in I might try and make it.- The wife did not shoot me down yet so there is a chance.- It is only about 170 miles or so,- I would leave fr iday mid day or so and come home around mid afternon on saturday the 25th. - Never been, but have wanted to for a few years now. - - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:41 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-7 Mag Switch From: "TriScout" Anyone know where to search for an antique magneto switch? (i.e. A-7 wwII style, cub or aeronca-style). Thx Larry (Dallas) GN-1 N2308C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308610#308610 ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Got an engine! From: "Billy McCaskill" I second Rick's recommendation of Kroil. Great stuff, I use it frequently when doing gunsmithing on old guns with years of accumulated rust and crud. Can be a bit hard to find locally, my second choice for a penetrating oil would be PB Blaster, available in the automotive section at WalMart. This stuff also works great on rusty nuts and bolts, though it smells a lot worse than Kroil does. -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308620#308620 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.