Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Dan Yocum)
2. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (TOM STINEMETZE)
3. 07:17 AM - Re: Wing education, please advise.. (kevinpurtee)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: Wing education, please advise.. (kevinpurtee)
5. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Doug Dever)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: Continental engine (TriScout)
7. 07:36 AM - FC-10 vs .... (Gary Boothe)
8. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Jim Boyer)
9. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Jim Boyer)
10. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Doug Dever)
11. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Dan Yocum)
12. 10:10 AM - Re: FC-10 vs .... (Ben Charvet)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
On 09/08/2010 02:11 PM, Jim Boyer wrote:
> I have many hours flying Cessna 150's, etc and just one ride in a Piet
> but from that ride and hours flying Cessna's I just have to say
>
> if you believe the Piets glide ratio better than a 150's, well we have
> this bridge for sale here just South of us going to San Francisco.
Upon further consideration, I think you're right. 15:1 is pretty
extraordinary. The Lancair has an L/D of 13:1. No way a Piet has an
L/D better than a Lancair.
So, what's going on here? Let me make a couple WAGs. Pieti said the
temp was 74 degrees. In the summer, that's a cool day around these
parts. That temp wouldn't trigger the productions of thermals. So,
maybe it was mid to late afternoon on a sunny day early in the spring or
late in the fall with lots of fallow fields around. This would produce
some good thermals and they would certainly affect his glide ratio.
I've been soaring when there were no clouds and the entire altitude
range from 1500-4500' AGL was a lifting band - I could NOT find any sink
over many miles of area. It's possible he was gliding in a huge parcel
of rising air.
What else? He could have had a tailwind. 10mph increases the
*effective* glide ratio pretty substantially.
Those are 2 things that would increase an aircraft's observed glide ratio.
There's a Yahoo! group called airfoil. The moderator has posted Xfoil
analysis of the Riblett GA30-612 and the FC-10 airfoils in the "Files"
section. Unfortunately, he did the analysis of each airfoil using two
different Reynolds numbers, so it's hard to draw a conclusion (though,
the Riblett looks better than the FC-10). I just downloaded the Xfoil
software and am in the process of learning how to use it. When I do,
I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph
on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
Stay tuned,
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
Dan:
Good to see that at least one of you listers out there is old enough to
remember the Alice's Restaurant Trilogy. (i.e. the 8 x 10 color glossy
photographs with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
explaining what each one was. - reference to "American blind justice")
Stinemetze
do not archive
When I do, I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and a
paragraph
on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
What a neat topic! Very interesting.
The original airfoil gives a much better glide ratio than some aircraft I fly,
so I'm delighted with the performance. It feels like it takes hours to get down
when I shut the motor off. I could probably make it across TX with one of
the newer airfoils.
:)
do not archive
--------
Kevin Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311919#311919
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
Tom - Dan is too smart for his own good. He remembers all sorts of stuff. However,
as we all know, no one likes a smart (aleck) physicist.
please do not archive
--------
Kevin Purtee
NX899KP
Austin/Georgetown, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311921#311921
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
Keep in mind that the 150 is substantially different than a 152. The flaps
are consederably larger and produce much more drag. Having a lot of time
teaching in 150s I can say that with anything more than 10deg of flaps the
glide isn't very good. With full flaps a 150 will not climb even with full
power! Flaps off is a whole other ball game. They float forever. Not ha
ving flown a piet I can't compare=2C but with 20deg I would say a 150 glide
s like a tripacer with no flaps...not very well.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> Date: Thu=2C 9 Sep 2010 08:44:29 -0500
> From: yocum@fnal.gov
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education=2C please advise..
>
>
>
> On 09/08/2010 02:11 PM=2C Jim Boyer wrote:
> > I have many hours flying Cessna 150's=2C etc and just one ride in a Pie
t
> > but from that ride and hours flying Cessna's I just have to say
> >
> > if you believe the Piets glide ratio better than a 150's=2C well we hav
e
> > this bridge for sale here just South of us going to San Francisco.
>
> Upon further consideration=2C I think you're right. 15:1 is pretty
> extraordinary. The Lancair has an L/D of 13:1. No way a Piet has an
> L/D better than a Lancair.
>
> So=2C what's going on here? Let me make a couple WAGs. Pieti said the
> temp was 74 degrees. In the summer=2C that's a cool day around these
> parts. That temp wouldn't trigger the productions of thermals. So=2C
> maybe it was mid to late afternoon on a sunny day early in the spring or
> late in the fall with lots of fallow fields around. This would produce
> some good thermals and they would certainly affect his glide ratio.
> I've been soaring when there were no clouds and the entire altitude
> range from 1500-4500' AGL was a lifting band - I could NOT find any sink
> over many miles of area. It's possible he was gliding in a huge parcel
> of rising air.
>
> What else? He could have had a tailwind. 10mph increases the
> *effective* glide ratio pretty substantially.
>
> Those are 2 things that would increase an aircraft's observed glide ratio
.
>
> There's a Yahoo! group called airfoil. The moderator has posted Xfoil
> analysis of the Riblett GA30-612 and the FC-10 airfoils in the "Files"
> section. Unfortunately=2C he did the analysis of each airfoil using two
> different Reynolds numbers=2C so it's hard to draw a conclusion (though
=2C
> the Riblett looks better than the FC-10). I just downloaded the Xfoil
> software and am in the process of learning how to use it. When I do=2C
> I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph
> on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
> Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
>
> Stay tuned=2C
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov=2C http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Continental engine |
Might be worth calling Don(don's dream machines) and just chat about it. He's got
a hangar full of Continental parts..rebuilds engines for cheap. Does good work
they say. Might lead to something..might not.. It lead to me just buying an
A65 off a cub he overhauled for me for cheap.. Larry
Don Swords(770)412-8885
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311922#311922
Message 7
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With all this back and forth about alternate airfoils, I feel compelled to
make a simple statement.and this is not in any way a commentary on anyone
researching alternates.individuals far more curious than I.
But I find the FC-10 to be..well..sexy. I think Bernard Pietenpol must have
had a real artistic eye for design, coming up with a well-proportioned
homebuilt, incorporating a sleek, shapely wing.sexy. In fact, I have a wing
rib mounted above my headboard in my bedroom! Sometimes in the middle of the
night I ...(a'hem)..I'm just sayin'.It's has sex appeal; not unlike the
sleek and sexy Spitfire or P-38!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
20 ribs done
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM
STINEMETZE
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
Dan:
Good to see that at least one of you listers out there is old enough to
remember the Alice's Restaurant Trilogy. (i.e. the 8 x 10 color glossy
photographs with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
explaining what each one was. - reference to "American blind justice")
Stinemetze
do not archive
When I do, I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and a
paragraph
on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
Sounds good Dan; looking forward to seeing what the analysis points out.
Jim B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Yocum" <yocum@fnal.gov>
Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2010 6:44:29 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
On 09/08/2010 02:11 PM, Jim Boyer wrote:
> I have many hours flying Cessna 150's, etc and just one ride in a Piet
> but from that ride and hours flying Cessna's I just have to say
>
> if you believe the Piets glide ratio better than a 150's, well we have
> this bridge for sale here just South of us going to San Francisco.
Upon further consideration, I think you're right. 15:1 is pretty
extraordinary. The Lancair has an L/D of 13:1. No way a Piet has an
L/D better than a Lancair.
So, what's going on here? Let me make a couple WAGs. Pieti said the
temp was 74 degrees. In the summer, that's a cool day around these
parts. That temp wouldn't trigger the productions of thermals. So,
maybe it was mid to late afternoon on a sunny day early in the spring or
late in the fall with lots of fallow fields around. This would produce
some good thermals and they would certainly affect his glide ratio.
I've been soaring when there were no clouds and the entire altitude
range from 1500-4500' AGL was a lifting band - I could NOT find any sink
over many miles of area. It's possible he was gliding in a huge parcel
of rising air.
What else? He could have had a tailwind. 10mph increases the
*effective* glide ratio pretty substantially.
Those are 2 things that would increase an aircraft's observed glide ratio.
There's a Yahoo! group called airfoil. The moderator has posted Xfoil
analysis of the Riblett GA30-612 and the FC-10 airfoils in the "Files"
section. Unfortunately, he did the analysis of each airfoil using two
different Reynolds numbers, so it's hard to draw a conclusion (though,
the Riblett looks better than the FC-10). I just downloaded the Xfoil
software and am in the process of learning how to use it. When I do,
I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph
on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
Stay tuned,
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
Yes, but without flaps a 150 glides very well and will float in very light breeze
or rising air.
Jim B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Dever" <chiefpepperhead@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2010 7:20:49 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
Keep in mind that the 150 is substantially different than a 152. The flaps are
consederably larger and produce much more drag. Having a lot of time teaching
in 150s I can say that with anything more than 10deg of flaps the glide isn't
very good. With full flaps a 150 will not climb even with full power! Flaps
off is a whole other ball game. They float forever. Not having flown a piet
I can't compare, but with 20deg I would say a 150 glides like a tripacer with
no flaps...not very well.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:44:29 -0500
> From: yocum@fnal.gov
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
>
>
>
> On 09/08/2010 02:11 PM, Jim Boyer wrote:
> > I have many hours flying Cessna 150's, etc and just one ride in a Piet
> > but from that ride and hours flying Cessna's I just have to say
> >
> > if you believe the Piets glide ratio better than a 150's, well we have
> > this bridge for sale here just South of us going to San Francisco.
>
> Upon further consideration, I think you're right. 15:1 is pretty
> extraordinary. The Lancair has an L/D of 13:1. No way a Piet has an
> L/D better than a Lancair.
>
> So, what's going on here? Let me make a couple WAGs. Pieti said the
> temp was 74 degrees. In the summer, that's a cool day around these
> parts. That temp wouldn't trigger the productions of thermals. So,
> maybe it was mid to late afternoon on a sunny day early in the spring or
> late in the fall with lots of fallow fields around. This would produce
> some good thermals and they would certainly affect his glide ratio.
> I've been soaring when there were no clouds and the entire altitude
> range from 1500-4500' AGL was a lifting band - I could NOT find any sink
> over many miles of area. It's possible he was gliding in a huge parcel
> of rising air.
>
> What else? He could have had a tailwind. 10mph increases the
> *effective* glide ratio pretty substantially.
>
> Those are 2 things that would increase an aircraft's observed glide ratio.
>
> There's a Yahoo! group called airfoil. The moderator has posted Xfoil
> analysis of the Riblett GA30-612 and the FC-10 airfoils in the "Files"
> section. Unfortunately, he did the analysis of each airfoil using two
> different Reynolds numbers, so it's hard to draw a conclusion (though,
> the Riblett looks better than the FC-10). I just downloaded the Xfoil
> software and am in the process of learning how to use it. When I do,
> I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph
> on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
> Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
>
> Stay tuned,
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
yes it does. As my description of floats forever indicates. Lowell was sa
ying that a Piet glides like a 150 with 20deg of flap. And from what I get
from talking with pieters (new word) that sounds about right.
Doug Dever
In beautiful Stow Ohio
> Date: Thu=2C 9 Sep 2010 15:01:35 +0000
> From: boyerjrb@comcast.net
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education=2C please advise..
>
>
> Yes=2C but without flaps a 150 glides very well and will float in very li
ght breeze or rising air.
> Jim B.
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wing education, please advise.. |
Prego.
Dan
do not archive
On 09/08/2010 03:12 PM, ALAN LYSCARS wrote:
> Molto bene Gracia Dan,
> Al
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Dan Yocum <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
>
> <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>>
>
> They're not actually "attached" to the email. There are links to the
> jpegs below the word "Attachments:"
>
> To save you time, here are the links that he "Attached"
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/drag_layout_2_196.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/drag_layout_983.jpg
>
> Dan
>
>
> On 09/08/2010 12:33 PM, ALAN LYSCARS wrote:
> > Tom,
> > I'm plugged into the piet list to receive all mail as it's sent.
> Didn't
> > see an attachment on your post.
> > Al
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* tkreiner <mailto:tkreiner@gmail.com>
> > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:59 PM
> > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
> >
> <tkreiner@gmail.com <mailto:tkreiner@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:tkreiner@gmail.com>>
> >
> > Al,
> >
> > Are you reading the email summary, or looking at the actual
> > Matronics forums?
> >
> > I'm able to see the jpegs large as can be...
> >
> > Let me know.
> >
> > --------
> > Tom Kreiner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311836#311836
> >
> >
> > http://www.matnbsp; via the Web
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> <http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com>
> > <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> > _p; generous bsp;
> >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c>================
> >
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> Fermilab 630.840.6509
> yocum@fnal.gov <mailto:yocum@fnal.gov>, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty p;
> Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> _p; generous bsp;
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FC-10 vs .... |
I'll have to run that decorating idea past my wife....
I agree that there is something cool about an undercambered airfoil.
Ben
On 9/9/2010 10:32 AM, Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> With all this back and forth about alternate airfoils, I feel
> compelled to make a simple statement...and this is not in any way a
> commentary on anyone researching alternates...individuals far more
> curious than I.
>
> But I find the FC-10 to be....well....sexy. I think Bernard Pietenpol
> must have had a real artistic eye for design, coming up with a
> well-proportioned homebuilt, incorporating a sleek, shapely
> wing...sexy. In fact, I have a wing rib mounted above my headboard in
> my bedroom! Sometimes in the middle of the night I .....(a'hem)....I'm
> just sayin'...It's has sex appeal; not unlike the sleek and sexy
> Spitfire or P-38!
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, CA
>
> Pietenpol
>
> WW Corvair Conversion
>
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
>
> 20 ribs done
>
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *TOM
> STINEMETZE
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:58 AM
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise..
>
> *Dan:*
>
> *Good to see that at least one of you listers out there is old enough
> to remember the Alice's Restaurant Trilogy. (i.e. the 8 x 10 color
> glossy photographs with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the
> back explaining what each one was. - reference to "American blind
> justice")*
>
> *Stinemetze*
>
> *do not archive*
>
>
> When I do, I'll produce some 9x5 glossies with circles and arrows and
> a paragraph
> on the back of each one that compare (at least computationally) the
> Riblett 612 and FC-10 for the same Reynolds numbers.
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List*
> **
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
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