---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/11/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - Re: to weld or not to weld (Doug Dever) 2. 06:37 AM - Re: to weld or not to weld (Ryan Mueller) 3. 07:28 AM - Re: to weld or not to weld (Rick Holland) 4. 08:52 AM - Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Billy McCaskill) 5. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Wing education, please advise.. (Kip and Beth Gardner) 6. 01:44 PM - Re: What to look for in a 3/4 built Pietenpol (JGriff) 7. 01:53 PM - louvers (airlion) 8. 02:29 PM - Re: louvers (Gary Boothe) 9. 04:04 PM - Re: louvers (Ryan Mueller) 10. 04:23 PM - Re: louvers (airlion) 11. 07:29 PM - Re: Flight training (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:40 AM PST US From: Doug Dever Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld I stated it wrong. There isn't much welding. Yes=2C a lot of little parts . But=2C not a lot of welding. Of course a lot is a relative thing. And m ost of the time I can't relate. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld There=92s not much to weld on a Piet? Let=92s see=2C there=92s just the ai leron horns=2C the elevator horns=2C the rudder horn=2C the control system torque tube=2C the control sticks=2C the cabane struts=2C the lift struts =2C the landing gear struts (if using the Cub style gear)=2C the engine mou nt=2C the aileron pulley fittings=2C etc.=2C etc. Other than that there=92 s not much welding required. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh=2C NC From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Dever Sent: Friday=2C September 10=2C 2010 4:55 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld If you weld with gas (oxy acetyline) you don't have to worry about much of the stuff that the TIG/MIG guys have to worry about. But it takes a little practice to lay a good weld and the right rod and torch tip for the job. Gas welding equip. is much cheaper and in my opinion more versatile=2C but I'm also comfortable with it. There is not much to weld on a piet=2C so If you don't have the equipment I'd say hire it done. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Date: Fri=2C 10 Sep 2010 15:57:52 -0400 > From: jim_markle@mindspring.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > om> > > Yesterday I welded several bolts to a small piece of angle iron...to make a little rack to hold extension cords... > > Didn't matter that: > 1. A fan was blowing right into the area where I was welding.... > 2. Some welds were good=2C some weren't..... > 3. The flux core wire I was using in my mig machine probably wasn't match ed up just right with what I was welding.... > 4. I filled in some good size gaps with big gobs of weld.... > 5. I did it all about the same way most of my neighbors (mostly farmers) weld up their plows=2C etc... > > But for aviation welding ALL of those (plus some!) DO matter. > > Just make sure (and I'm NOT saying you haven't already confirmed this=2C I'm just sayin') that your friend knows the special care to be taken when w elding 4130...on parts that your life will depend on. I found there to be a few gotcha's that were really surprising. > > Again=2C not trying to be an alarmist...just some things to think about. I went through the same questions and later found out I should have asked m y friend if he was going to let the welds cool slowly=2C what kind of rod h e was going to use=2C whether he would/would not normalize (or whether he a ctually had the equipment to normalize "the proper way")=2C etc=2C etc. > > It's a lot more fun asking those important questions now rather than late r.... > > By the way=2C if you want to appreciate even MORE what a great welder you r friend is=2C look at some pictures of MY welding!!! :-) > > jm > > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: bcolleran > >Sent: Sep 10=2C 2010 2:20 PM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > > > > >To weld the or not to weld. That is the question! I have a friend who is willing to do all the landing gear and motor mount welding for me. He is a non-aviation guy but is a master welder. I on the other hand have welded o nce a long time ago. What is everyones thoughts? > > > >Thanks=2C > > > >Bill > >N424BK > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312054#312054 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================= > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld From: Ryan Mueller Indeed. There's really not much welding to be done when building a Pietenpo l relative to, let's say, a scratch-built Curtiss Condor replica. Very negligible amount. But for an airplane made primarily of wood, and for which it seems part of the attraction for many people is the assumption that they won't have to weld much.....there's a good amount of welding. :) Ryan do not archive On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Doug Dever wr ote: > I stated it wrong. There isn't much welding. Yes, a lot of little > parts. But, not a lot of welding. Of course a lot is a relative thing. And > most of the time I can't relate. > > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > ------------------------------ > From: pietflyr@bellsouth.net > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:22:29 -0400 > > > There=92s not much to weld on a Piet? Let=92s see, there=92s just the a ileron > horns, the elevator horns, the rudder horn, the control system torque tub e, > the control sticks, the cabane struts, the lift struts, the landing gear > struts (if using the Cub style gear), the engine mount, the aileron pulle y > fittings, etc., etc. Other than that there=92s not much welding required .. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Raleigh, NC > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Dever > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2010 4:55 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > If you weld with gas (oxy acetyline) you don't have to worry about much o f > the stuff that the TIG/MIG guys have to worry about. But it takes a litt le > practice to lay a good weld and the right rod and torch tip for the job. > Gas welding equip. is much cheaper and in my opinion more versatile, but I'm > also comfortable with it. There is not much to weld on a piet, so If you > don't have the equipment I'd say hire it done. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:57:52 -0400 > > From: jim_markle@mindspring.com > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > jim_markle@mindspring.com> > > > > Yesterday I welded several bolts to a small piece of angle iron...to ma ke > a little rack to hold extension cords... > > > > Didn't matter that: > > 1. A fan was blowing right into the area where I was welding.... > > 2. Some welds were good, some weren't..... > > 3. The flux core wire I was using in my mig machine probably wasn't > matched up just right with what I was welding.... > > 4. I filled in some good size gaps with big gobs of weld.... > > 5. I did it all about the same way most of my neighbors (mostly farmers ) > weld up their plows, etc... > > > > But for aviation welding ALL of those (plus some!) DO matter. > > > > Just make sure (and I'm NOT saying you haven't already confirmed this, > I'm just sayin') that your friend knows the special care to be taken when > welding 4130...on parts that your life will depend on. I found there to b e a > few gotcha's that were really surprising. > > > > Again, not trying to be an alarmist...just some things to think about. I > went through the same questions and later found out I should have asked m y > friend if he was going to let the welds cool slowly, what kind of rod he was > going to use, whether he would/would not normalize (or whether he actuall y > had the equipment to normalize "the proper way"), etc, etc. > > > > It's a lot more fun asking those important questions now rather than > later.... > > > > By the way, if you want to appreciate even MORE what a great welder you r > friend is, look at some pictures of MY welding!!! :-) > > > > jm > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: bcolleran > > >Sent: Sep 10, 2010 2:20 PM > > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > > bcolleran@comcast.net> > > > > > >To weld the or not to weld. That is the question! I have a friend who is > willing to do all the landing gear and motor mount welding for me. He is a > non-aviation guy but is a master welder. I on the other hand have welded > once a long time ago. What is everyones thoughts? > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Bill > > >N424BK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312054#312054 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================= > > > > > > > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld From: Rick Holland And don't forget the 4 center strut fittings ?:) rick On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Jack Phillips wrot e: > Oops, I forgot the elevator bellcrank and the journals to support the > torque tube, and the rudder pedals, and their supports. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Raleigh, NC > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jack Phillips > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2010 8:22 PM > > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > There=92s not much to weld on a Piet? Let=92s see, there=92s just the ai leron > horns, the elevator horns, the rudder horn, the control system torque tub e, > the control sticks, the cabane struts, the lift struts, the landing gear > struts (if using the Cub style gear), the engine mount, the aileron pulle y > fittings, etc., etc. Other than that there=92s not much welding required .. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Raleigh, NC > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Dever > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2010 4:55 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > If you weld with gas (oxy acetyline) you don't have to worry about much o f > the stuff that the TIG/MIG guys have to worry about. But it takes a litt le > practice to lay a good weld and the right rod and torch tip for the job. > Gas welding equip. is much cheaper and in my opinion more versatile, but I'm > also comfortable with it. There is not much to weld on a piet, so If you > don't have the equipment I'd say hire it done. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:57:52 -0400 > > From: jim_markle@mindspring.com > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > jim_markle@mindspring.com> > > > > Yesterday I welded several bolts to a small piece of angle iron...to ma ke > a little rack to hold extension cords... > > > > Didn't matter that: > > 1. A fan was blowing right into the area where I was welding.... > > 2. Some welds were good, some weren't..... > > 3. The flux core wire I was using in my mig machine probably wasn't > matched up just right with what I was welding.... > > 4. I filled in some good size gaps with big gobs of weld.... > > 5. I did it all about the same way most of my neighbors (mostly farmers ) > weld up their plows, etc... > > > > But for aviation welding ALL of those (plus some!) DO matter. > > > > Just make sure (and I'm NOT saying you haven't already confirmed this, > I'm just sayin') that your friend knows the special care to be taken when > welding 4130...on parts that your life will depend on. I found there to b e a > few gotcha's that were really surprising. > > > > Again, not trying to be an alarmist...just some things to think about. I > went through the same questions and later found out I should have asked m y > friend if he was going to let the welds cool slowly, what kind of rod he was > going to use, whether he would/would not normalize (or whether he actuall y > had the equipment to normalize "the proper way"), etc, etc. > > > > It's a lot more fun asking those important questions now rather than > later.... > > > > By the way, if you want to appreciate even MORE what a great welder you r > friend is, look at some pictures of MY welding!!! :-) > > > > jm > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: bcolleran > > >Sent: Sep 10, 2010 2:20 PM > > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: to weld or not to weld > > > > bcolleran@comcast.net> > > > > > >To weld the or not to weld. That is the question! I have a friend who is > willing to do all the landing gear and motor mount welding for me. He is a > non-aviation guy but is a master welder. I on the other hand have welded > once a long time ago. What is everyones thoughts? > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Bill > > >N424BK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312054#312054 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================= > > > > > > > > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > *href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ c* > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > =========== > =========== =========== =========== > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. From: "Billy McCaskill" Hi Joe, The only thing that changes when using the Riblett airfoils over the FC-10 is the shape of the rib itself. Nothing else about the wing design changes. You can use the same size spars, the length of the ailerons does not change, same wingspan (although Pieti Lowell's is a little shorter than standard), etc... The coordinates for the Riblett airfoils have been discussed and published here on the list many times, use the search function and it should turn up a spreadsheet with the Riblett GA30-612, GA30-613.5, and the FC-10. The Riblett airfoils should be just as good for the Corvair engine powered Piets as it is for the Ford or Continental/Lycoming/Franklin powered ones. Where in IL are you located? -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312140#312140 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:16 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing education, please advise.. I think this has been covered before, but the only real difference is that the 612 and 613.5 cross sections are deeper than the FC, so you will need to fill in the empty space that will exist above the spar at each rib location. There has been some discussion about this, with specific regard to rib incidence - I believe that the consensus is to align the rib centerline 90 degrees to the spar and set the wing incidence (relative to the fuse) by adjusting the cabane lengths? Kip Gardner On Sep 11, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Billy McCaskill wrote: > > > Hi Joe, > > The only thing that changes when using the Riblett airfoils over > the FC-10 is the shape of the rib itself. Nothing else about the > wing design changes. You can use the same size spars, the length > of the ailerons does not change, same wingspan (although Pieti > Lowell's is a little shorter than standard), etc... > > The coordinates for the Riblett airfoils have been discussed and > published here on the list many times, use the search function and > it should turn up a spreadsheet with the Riblett GA30-612, > GA30-613.5, and the FC-10. > > The Riblett airfoils should be just as good for the Corvair engine > powered Piets as it is for the Ford or Continental/Lycoming/ > Franklin powered ones. > > Where in IL are you located? > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Urbana, IL > tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312140#312140 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What to look for in a 3/4 built Pietenpol From: "JGriff" I went and looked at it today and it is pretty far along and seems well built. Here are some photos. I'm not sure I will be able to buy the project and if anyone else is interested I'd be happy to pass along the builder's name and contact info via email. The project is located on the CT/RI border near Westerly RI. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312161#312161 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn1428_117.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn1425_110.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn1422_135.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn1424_733.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:14 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Pietenpol-List: louvers Good afternoon Listers. I have a Mack truck cowl with a 1 sq ft panel on each side for access. I have two 6 inch intake holes on the nose with a 150 percent opening out the bottom. If I cut louvers on each panel will that mess up my cooling. I would really like the louvers looks wise. Cheers, Gardiner ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:01 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: louvers Hi Gardiner, Not that I know that much about pressure cowls, but I recall Kurt Shipman saying how he improved his cooling by increasing the opening at the bottom. With that in mind, I can't see how louvers on the low pressure side would do anything but help...at least they wouldn't hurt. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (20 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: louvers Good afternoon Listers. I have a Mack truck cowl with a 1 sq ft panel on each side for access. I have two 6 inch intake holes on the nose with a 150 percent opening out the bottom. If I cut louvers on each panel will that mess up my cooling. I would really like the louvers looks wise. Cheers, Gardiner ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: louvers From: Ryan Mueller Hi Gardiner, I'v attached a cropped down photo of your cowling, from the first flight pics you sent. Is the panel you are referring to the square panel that is sort of hidden behind the prop? The one which goes around the exhaust pipe, covering from just below the exhaust pipe up to the horizontal rivet line about midway up the cowling? Ryan On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, airlion wrote: > > Good afternoon Listers. I have a Mack truck cowl with a 1 sq ft panel on > each > side for access. I have two 6 inch intake holes on the nose with a 150 > percent > opening out the bottom. If I cut louvers on each panel will that mess up my > cooling. I would really like the louvers looks wise. Cheers, Gardiner > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:50 PM PST US From: airlion Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: louvers Ryan, I have now moved my exhaust pipes down through the hole in the bottom of the cowl . Where the pipes used to come thru show the pipes coming thru a panel on each side as pictured. I have replaced those panels with a hinged access door that I want to put louvers in. Cheers, Gardiner and my best to Jessie. ________________________________ From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 7:01:52 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: louvers Hi Gardiner, I'v attached a cropped down photo of your cowling, from the first flight pics you sent. Is the panel you are referring to the square panel that is sort of hidden behind the prop? The one which goes around the exhaust pipe, covering from just below the exhaust pipe up to the horizontal rivet line about midway up the cowling? Ryan On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, airlion wrote: > >Good afternoon Listers. I have a Mack truck cowl with a 1 sq ft panel on each >side for access. I have two 6 inch intake holes on the nose with a 150 percent >opening out the bottom. If I cut louvers on each panel will that mess up my >cooling. I would really like the louvers looks wise. Cheers, Gardiner > > >========== >st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >========== >http://forums.matronics.com >========== >le, List Admin. >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >========== > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:28 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flight training My cousin has a instructor teaching him for his Sport Pilot ticket in Dumas, Texas. My cousin bought an Avid Sport and is learning in it. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: skellytown flyer Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flight training > > Is there a rule that Sport pilot training must be done in S/P class aircraft? I met a guy very interested in getting his license and wants to go the > S/P route but there are very few instructors left in the Texas > panhandle I know about to start with and I don't know if any do > the S/P thing but I'm trying to help him find one and an aircraft > to rent. Raymond do not archive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=312082#312082 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.